This week's Autoblog Podcast features Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore and Consumer Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski as they debate the merits of the redesigned Subaru BRZ and Toyota 86 coupes and whether or not they are distinctive and powerful enough to attract buyers. The duo spends some time discussing ongoing EV and infrastructure legislation before turning their attention to a trio of crossovers. Greg muses about the 2021 Mazda CX-30 before Jeremy talks about the refreshed 2022 Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross and completely redesigned Outlander.
We get nostalgic as we remember the dearly departed Pontiac GTO before wrapping the podcast up by making one more suggestion to a longtime listener who is shopping for a vehicle to replace her aging Honda Pilot.
Transcript- This week's episode of the "Autoblog Podcast" is brought to you by the "Autoblog Daily Digest." it's a great way to stay updated with what's happening in the world of cars in just two or three minutes every day. Ask your smart speaker for the "Autoblog Daily Digest" to stay up to speed with the latest car news or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today is consumer editor Jeremy Korzeniewski. How are you?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I'm doing really good. It is in the upper-70s today and perfectly sunny out.
GREG MIGLIORE: Nice. Nice. It is 62. It was 42 about two hours ago. And I hear it's going to be 82 in about three or four hours. So we are going through basically 2 and 1/2 seasons here in Michigan-- sounds like you're doing the same thing down in Ohio. It's a fun time of year. I like this time.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It's great.
GREG MIGLIORE: I actually just discovered a new Yeti tumbler that was at the back of my coffee mug cabinet this morning. So it's really a pretty good Tuesday, not going to lie.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I mean, finding a new Yeti tumbler kind of elevates your Tuesday from so-so to, like, immediately better than most, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm not sure it's new. I just think it's new to me. I think it's one of those things where you get something like a gift, and then it falls to the back, then you're like, hey, what's this? Too bad it doesn't have a lid, but it doesn't really matter. I'm sitting indoors, and kind of a good thing to drink around the campfire maybe.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: There you go.
GREG MIGLIORE: Warm or cold. We're going to talk about more than the weather and random tumblers. It's a big show for you guys all today. We're going to talk about the new Toyota '86 and the Subaru BRZ which actually came out back in November, but it's a good time to kind of mop it all up. Jeremy and I have slightly different opinions, so I think it's going to be fun to talk about that.
We're going to talk about the EV tax credits slash rebates that have been sort of floated, discussed. We'll try not to get too political, but we are going to talk about what it might mean, what we think, and how it could work. I've been driving the Mazda CX30, the premium plus. It's very nice. It's got the turbo engine, very nice interior, a lot of stuff going on with it, but still priced quite competitively.
And Jeremy actually came up to Ann Arbor, Michigan last week and drove the Mitsubishi Outlander. And what else did you drive? The Eclipse Cross?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: That's correct, yeah-- the 2022 versions of both.
GREG MIGLIORE: We will then discuss the latest used car listing. That's an area of the site Jeremy has been overseeing. He's got one of my favorites-- an early-2000s GTO, one of my favorites. I'll leave it there. Then we do have an update on Spend My Money. Jeremy is going to throw just a little bit more dirt in the stream to try to muddy the waters and we're having fun. This is good. So let's go.
There's a new sports car. It's the Toyota 86. It looks a lot like the old sports car, formerly known as the Scion FRS. Obviously, it's twinned with the Subaru BRZ. The car was revealed yesterday, on Monday. Today's Tuesday. It was kind of a slow news day, so it was great to actually say, hey, one of our enthusiast favorites is out there.
So we have the car-- check it out. Check out the pictures. Freelancer Roman Glan handled it for us right off the top. I came back with a second hit for a variety of reasons. One, this is very serendipitous. I was thumbing through an old notebook this summer, and one of the first things I wrote in it was these impressions of the 86 that I had driven, oh, late August-- late July, early August. And I jotted down a bunch of impressions and never quite had enough to turn it into a story.
You know, maybe this happens to you, Jeremy-- you get a car, you don't have an assignment, per se, or a deadline, and it gets, like-- as this tends to happen with writers, you don't tend to get it done. There is really nothing to do, if you will. Anyways, I had, like, maybe a third of a story worth of impressions, then I had some opinions.
And lo and behold, I kind of had a little bit of an opinion piece here. I guess that's how the sausage gets made here. But my point is I think it was good. It held the course-- stayed the course, held serve, pick your cliche-- a little bit more horsepower. It's up to 232. That's just converting it from the specifications for the domestic market in Japan.
But we think it's going to be about that here in the United States. That's about 4 more than Subaru's BRZ, which is 228, which is up considerably from 200 or 205, depending on if you get the automatic or manual transmission the current car has. Engine's a little bit bigger-- goes from 2 liters to 4 leaders-- still no turbo or anything like that, but of course, it's a rock solid chassis, six-speed manual transmission.
And the car looks almost identical. I mean, you got to really look to see the big differences here. And in the press release, they didn't even highlight anything that was all that different, which usually companies will be like, wow, look at these mirrors inspired by the 1964 Ford Galaxie, or these headlights the throwback to the something something from the 1930s. And a lot of it's just kind of colorful writing.
They didn't even bother to do that. They're just like, yeah, here's the car. It's slightly different. I'm OK with it. I will say this-- the 86 and the BRZ are among my favorite cars. I think if I, like, was not an automotive journalist and didn't have access to, like, you know, testing out cars, which is a lot of work but also a privilege, this is a car I'd look at.
I could into a little bit more about, could this be a daily driver? You know, my sort of prescription is, well, that depends on what your commute is. You know, if your commute is, like, through the open rolling hills of England, yeah, maybe it could. If your commute is through, like, you know, downtown, like, New York, no, it's not, you know?
But overall, I'm OK with what they did. I think they could have been more dramatic. I think they could have done some things. But sure, I'm all right. But I think you have a bit of a different take.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just I want to say I'm super happy that Subaru and Toyota kept this joint venture going and has come out with the second generation of the 86 BRZ platform. So don't get me wrong, I think it's great, and I would rather live in a world where these sport coupes exist as opposed to not existing.
And I guess my issue that I take with these vehicles is that they're just not-- they're just not differentiated enough and they don't stand out enough that I think they're going to be a sales success. I mean, the big issue that the duo has had is that they just don't really sell in very good numbers, which is what made us wonder if there was even going to be a second generation to start out with. There is, and I think that's great.
So apparently, there was enough interest to spend the development money and keep it around. But I just don't see this update being the thing that rights the ship and makes these into a long-term, viable prospect on the market. I look at the BRZ, and 86, and even the Scion FRS as an awesome used car buy.
We actually covered the twins in a previous version of our used car spotlight-- we'll talk about the most recent one later on. They're an awesome used buy for $10,000, because I don't think a whole lot of people are going to use these cars as the daily driver. They are very elemental. And I think that's good for them that they are, there's just not that many buyers out there that are looking for this kind of vehicle.
I think they could potentially attract a little bit more attention from buyers if they were more outrageously styled. I don't want to say that they're boring looking, but I will say that you could drive one right through a city center without attracting much attention, unless it's painted, like, yellow or something like that-- you know, immediately eye-grabbing. But yeah, I mean, put one in blue, or red, or white, or black, and drive it right down a busy Main Street, and no one's going to be paying any attention to you. They definitely fly under the radar.
So they're not going to attract the young buyer looking for something ostentatious. They will get the younger buyers who want to stand some, put spoilers on them, put body kits on them. But that's just a really small segment of the marketplace. So while I love the cars, and think it's awesome that they exist, and I absolutely will recommend them to people, to the right buyer, I just don't think that this update is what is going to turn these vehicles into a resounding success in the marketplace.
Also, to get back to the styling for a minute-- walk into a Toyota dealership, and you'll be, like, hit over the head by expressive styling-- everything from the Camry, to the Avalon, even, especially the TRD versions. Look at the Sienna and the Highlander-- they've got this very expressive styling. And I'll be the first to admit that I don't really love that styling language. However, it's very aggressive. And I keep using that word, expressive-- that's what it is. The 86 isn't. And if one vehicle is really going to stand out in the showroom, shouldn't it be the sports coupe?
GREG MIGLIORE: So I think that's where the Super comes in, which I think is a little over the top. And I think that's definitely more of a halo car for Toyota. I'll agree with you that they're not doing enough to make this like a star, if you will. I was looking at the sales figures, and the Toyota Mirai has outsold the 86-- I forget if it was either this year or in March. I'm mixing up which figures. But it was beating the 86 for at least a recent time period.
So I think that illustrates that, yeah, I mean, there is a pretty small market for these things when a car that's like a hydrogen fuel cell, that has very little infrastructure is outperforming its sales charts.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It's only for sale in California, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: To your point, though, Greg, these are exciting cars. They're great to drive. I absolutely recommend them to automotive enthusiasts. My concern is that they're, again, going to fly under the radar. They're not going to sell enough for Subaru and Toyota to go in and do the things that we've been asking for them to do-- make special editions, make them more exciting, maybe even add that turbocharger that we've all been wanting-- even though I would argue it doesn't really need it, especially with the power update.
It's 0 to 60's in the mid-six second range now with the update, which is like a full second quicker than they used to be. So I don't really think power is the issue. But for those people that want a BRZ STI or something, I just don't think that they're going to sell enough to attract the investment that I think that the platform deserves.
So that's my disappointment with them-- not that I don't like the cars and not that I'm not excited by them, I just don't see this as the thing that pushes them into that realm of, like, OK, we're not going to be talking about the fourth and fifth generation versions like we do the Miata. They might end here in the second generation, and that'd be a shame.
GREG MIGLIORE: So yeah, I mean, I think the business case you lay out is definitely spot on, because they clearly didn't do enough to attract new-- like, new buyers to this fold. Depending on what the electric future, autonomous future looks like, I mean, this is the Stegosaurus, the Spinosaurus of part of the automotive world right now.
I do think this as an electric car could be very compelling, just because it's already such a compact and lightweight frame-- 2,800, 2,900 pounds. Like I think you said, 0 to 60 is somewhere around, like, 6-something now-- 6.3. Before, it was actually, like, in the 7's, which is pretty uncompetitive, actually.
I mean, I love driving them. I love, like, the shifting, the chassis dynamics. I've actually always liked how they looked, because I do feel like there's a bit of a-- like, the dash to axle proportions, the ratio-- I mean, just that long hood, the headlights, the tapered back, the low roof-- to me, this is, like, a modern 1960s sports car.
And I compare this in the opinion piece I wrote about-- to just, like, everything-- from the E-type, to the Datsun Z cars, to even the 2000 GT, which is what Toyota sort of loosely traces its lineage to when it kind of, I don't know, made up a history for this car, if you will. But some of it's-- I mean, there is a path, if you will, to it.
I mean, what I like about it too is I kind of like minimalism in a lot of areas of my life. Like, I'm more like-- you know, I'm really into watches. So I'm more like either a dive watch or a field watch kind of guy. I'm not going to walk around wearing, like, you know, a gold Rolex or something. I like the minimalism.
I like the rubber or the canvas strap for the watch. And when I look at this car, that's like the equivalent I see, if you will, you know? I could definitely see a world, though, where they did style this thing up, make it more of like-- you know, especially with like social media and trying to, like, what's the next TikTok? What's your influencer going to say? I mean, this car is very anonymous for sure.
Even if you get, like, the wheels or some of the extra, or if you did take it to the aftermarket and do some things to it-- but you know, it's pure. I like it. I think yesterday, we had a good discussion in Slack where some people were talking about comparing it to, like, a Buick or something, like, from the back end.
And I will admit the back end, it does get pretty vanilla back there. But you know, I think there's a lot of people that not only think it's kind of anonymous, but also don't particularly like the looks of the car. At least that was kind of reading the Slack room yesterday-- like well, jeez, you know, like, this was just so-so before, and now it's, like, really so-so, because they had a chance to redo it and they didn't.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: There are detractors. I think that the basics of the cars design-- the silhouette, like you said, the dash to axle ratio, it's very reminiscent of classic quintessential sports cars. And I think that's good.
I also have to admit, when it was pointed out to me by some of our colleagues, that, you know, it very much from behind looks like a mid-2000s Buick Regal. And you can't deny it. Like, you look at it and you're like, yeah, I guess it does. And I don't think you really want your sport coupe looking like a mildly sporty, entry level luxury sedan.
But that said, I don't fall into that camp that, like, is detracting the vehicle based on its looks. I think it looks good, and I like it. I just think it really needs to be more expressive if it's going to get showroom traffic and actually get people to remember that it exists when it's time for them to go Mustang or Camaro shopping, because it's a great car. And I just-- I don't think that this refresh or redesign goes far enough to make it into a marketplace success. That's my big criticism.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let's leave it there. And let's talk some politics-- not politics, but let's get into the part of President Biden's infrastructure plan, as we could see more money for electric cars in infrastructure. It's-- I mean, the infrastructure plan is, like, so far right now from actually becoming reality. But one of the elements of it was you might get more rebates, there might be more tax incentives for all of the things that go along with electric cars. I'm curious now, as you kind of lay this out, what piece of this do you think would maybe spur electric vehicle sales?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I think one thing that would definitely help is turning the rebates from tax credits to an actual point of sale discount. And the tax rebate has a lot of benefits from the government side. Part of it is that it looks great on paper, but not everyone will qualify for the full amount. It really depends on how much money you earn and what your total tax liability will be at the end of the year.
So you know, like, the more money you make and the larger tax liability you have, the bigger chances are that you'll get that full, up to $7,500 rebate. And I think there are ways around that. One of the ways is by leasing the vehicle, letting the dealership or automaker benefit from the tax rebate, and just taking the lower monthly payments.
That is an option. But that's not an option that everybody's going to want. So for me, if there's one thing that could potentially spur EV ownership, it would probably be moving from a total tax rebate to a point-of-sale discount. And there's a lot of things that will help. You know, the number of chargers will help, and just the number of choices which is going to happen organically as more automakers enter the space-- all that's going to help. But if we're talking about what the government can do to spur sales, I would talk about that initial discount.
GREG MIGLIORE: I would agree with you, because I am, like, mildly in the market for an electric car. We are-- we're looking around. We're thinking of replacing our SUV with, you know, maybe a minivan. And the Pacifica is a plug-in hybrid. But to your point, again, like, it's an up to $7,500 tax credit, but you got to pay that much in taxes, for starters.
You've got to be really on the ball with your tax guy and your accountant to make sure all this stuff works. The rebate is definitely appealing, as someone who, like I said, is perhaps an EV customer-- for any EV as well, just in general. Like, you know, I see some other ones that are coming online in the next couple of years and you're like, well, that's interesting.
I might want to try that, or at least put that in my garage, and consider owning that. That being said, you know, again, the tax credit part gets a little tricky. A rebate, I do think, could help. My only concern with that is I wonder if, like, prices are kind of in an artificial level right now. Like, it seems like automakers have no problem charging you, like, $40 grand for an electric car that, like, internal combustion guys would be, like, $30 grand.
So it feels like they're more than willing to like make you pay for the costs. OK, that's the way the world works. I don't have a problem with that, but the price points right now for electric cars are still a little tricky in many cases. You know, you're definitely paying for the electric technology, whereas you probably wouldn't pay for, like, equivalent four-cylinder or six-cylinder technology. Most people don't have a problem paying more for a V8, you know, which is sort of not-- that's probably not the way the world is going-- but just sort of looking at shopping habits-- and then, like, two other parts that sort of go hand in hand.
I think the more you can incentivize infrastructure build-out, however you can do that, I don't have the answer, but I've had-- in the last, like, say, six weeks, I've had the ID4 and the Mach E. And just the way it's worked-- the loans have been pretty short for review purposes. And I haven't really had to charge them. I just charge them both using, like, the portable chargers from my garage.
With the Mach E, you actually could, if you had, like, a stronger outlet, charge it very respectably. And that might be all you need. With the Volkswagen, it's really more like a charger that's more like not having the battery go dead or something if you're in a pinch, because it's really not that strong. But, like, some utility companies are offering rebates.
Like, Consumers Energy in Michigan offers you $500 to install a Level 2 charger. So you know, I'm not an economist here. So however you can maybe, like, spread that out to different entities to incentivize, I mean, I think that helps. I mean, that, again, for me, is like, well, wait a minute, OK, I can install a Level 2 charger, I get $500 off one.
Just using the Ford as an example, the one for the Mach E is like $799. OK, sure, I can swing $300 for a charger that's going to save me how much on gas?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: So all this kind of goes into the calculus and the purchase decision. And I do think you got to make it more straight cash to incentivize people. Like, I think rebates would work better than taxes. And I think you can also actually leave the tax equation in there, especially for people who, like-- like, I know people who are, like, not into talking about their taxes. They don't want to, like, spend time with their financial people.
Like, that's a tough thing to really get into, where it's like, hey, the car cost $36 you're getting $4,500 back from whomever, that's a lot easier to understand. And then the last part, which is to me the murkiest part, is we just need more infrastructure. You know, like, to go back to those two EVs I was driving, I was just looking around like, OK, so there's an Electrify American station here-- OK. Here's a charge here that's public access-- great.
Do I want to go there? Is it going to work? You know, there's just a little bit more guesswork right now as opposed to, I've got a quarter tank, there is a Sunoco on my corner. That's all the brain cells you got to spend on it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Right. Yeah, no, I mean, all your points, I think, are really great. And I mean, the more times I discuss it, the more I'm reminded that we're at this new spot in the automotive industry where electric vehicles are in their infancy. And we were here years, decades ago in the gasoline industry-- not turn of the century, after that-- '20s, '30s, '40s-- where car companies were really starting to get this gasoline engine thing down.
And they came up with their plans on the cheap, entry level vehicle, the stepping stones, all the way up to the really good one. And one thing that they never had to consider with that was range, because at the same time that Americans were buying vehicles powered by gasoline, the infrastructure was being built by a capitalist society with big corporations trying to make money and capitalize on it.
It's different now, because gasoline already exists. It's already a mature technology. There's, I don't even know, let's throw out a million gasoline stations across the United States. I don't even know what the number is, but plenty, I guess, is the right word. And that's in competition right now with electricity. Whereas when gasoline was established as the main entity, there wasn't competition from a legacy technology.
GREG MIGLIORE: Horses.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Sure, yeah, there were horses. And it's just difficult right now because every time a car company has tried to roll out an inexpensive entry level EV, there's been so much wrong with it that it hasn't worked-- like, I mean, people think of the Mitsubishi Imiev-- I-M-I-E-V. It was a very bare bones-- like, it was better than electric golf cart in that it had all the safety technologies, and airbags, and stuff that you want.
But it kind of drove like an electric golf cart. Like, every time a company has tried to capture that low-end market, they've done it with a product that just isn't good enough. And then Tesla comes along, and they get everyone to expect muscle car performance, name cachet, and super high technology with screens all over the place. And I don't want to say that that's a disservice to the marketplace, but now every new car that comes out-- like the VW ID4 and the Ford Mustang Mach E that are realistic cars that people would choose to drive every day, they're loaded with all this tech.
They need to go 250, 300 miles on a charge, and to make that happen, they've got to cost at least $40,000 and up. And that $25,000 EV that has so far been completely elusive in the United States is going to remain that way because they're just-- like, everything that we've talked about up to this point-- like, Tesla can't do it yet. They're talking about it. Ford can't do it yet because they've got to come out with the vehicle that competes with what's already there.
And I think until we hit that point where gasoline and electric vehicles, battery technology has progressed, or it doesn't have to progress any further because the charging isn't an issue and range anxiety isn't a thing-- until there's actually some level of parity on sticker prices, I don't think that EVs are really going to take off in the marketplace like most people want them to do. So it's a really transient, transitionary time in the industry where it's going to take many more years before an EV is literally on everybody's shopping list alongside the gasoline counterpart.
GREG MIGLIORE: Thank you, Senator. Your comments will be reflected in the record, and we will move on. Let's talk some cars.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Let's do it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Start with the Mazda CX30. I drove this-- it actually just left my house yesterday. I spent a week in it. I drove it quite a bit, actually-- took it downtown, put some miles on it. I mean, not a ton, but I actually stretched it out a little bit. It's a really nice car.
Mine was a shade of white with black wheels and then the black wheel arches. Inside was kind of brown and like a tan brown and black too. So a really nice looking car, very sharp-- this is sort of, in simple terms, it's almost, like, a lifted Mazda 3. It's not all that different-- very competitive.
Like, you can get one as low as, like, 23,000, like, front-wheel drive, just the base 4-cylinder. I had the turbo, which is quite nice-- gives you plenty of get up, if you will. It's-- let's see, trying to find my spec-- I had a very high spec. And here it is-- about one like mine would be about $35,620, 2.5 turbo premium plus. So you get a lot of stuff there-- again, nice leather interior, a lot of electronic stuff, all-wheel drive.
And it's pretty potent. I think the turbo is something that, you know, you at least want to consider. You may not want to spend the money for it. But you get 250 horsepower and, like, I want to say 310 pound feet of torque. So you can move in this thing.
It's a very nice crossover. It's very competitive. It's a bit of a tweener. It kind of competes between, like, all sorts of different things. Like, it's called, I think, a subcompact, but it's really not. It's a little bit bigger than that, good steering, chassis is Mazda-like for this segment.
You know, the naming is a little weird-- CX30. It doesn't totally fit in with some of the other ones. But I really liked it. It's really competitive. You get a lot of car for the money. You know, the only hang up is for almost $36 grand, it's still not that big, if you will. Like, you can kind of step up to some larger, like, SUV crossover type things in this price range.
But I mean, even in base trim, it's a very nice, like-- you know, I mean, it can even be, like, a first car out college for some people, you know, for, like, $23 grand-- in which case you're getting a pretty Spartan interior, but you're getting a still very nice little crossover. So I liked it-- pretty nice.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I would say for people who prioritize enjoyment behind the wheel, Mazda is really your go-to brand. Everything that they make right now, from the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6, to the Mazda CX3, CX30, CX5, CX9-- everything that they make is the driver's choice in its segment-- CX30 no different.
It's good that they did it, because the Mazda 3 is one of the best-driving cars that you can-- I mean, just forget the segment that it's in, forget its price point-- it's really a joy to drive. The CX30, they have to chase that segment-- the crossoverized segment. They need a car with the all-wheel drive, and the slight body lift, and the cladding on it, because that's what people are buying.
If that's what it takes to get people into something based on the Mazda 3, then so be it. Great platform, great car, love the turbo charged engine. Even without it, still just a really, really nice vehicle to steer, and just to enjoy driving in. So yeah, I'm a big fan. I wish that Mazda could really gain a foothold and sell more vehicles based on the fact that they're, like, the drivers pick.
They're also very attractive if you line them up next to all their peers. Like, that's the one that draws your eye. I don't exactly know why they don't sell more-- I mean, fewer dealerships, less marketing money. It's not in your face everywhere like a Ford, Chevy, Honda, or Toyota. So I'm sure that has something to do with it. But yeah, if you're in the segment, you owe it to yourself to pop into your nearest Mazda dealership, even if it's a little bit further away, and just check out what they've got, because they're just really good, solid vehicles.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's definitely-- your phrase, the driver's choice, is spot on. And the design is, I think, among the best right now in the industry. I mean, they're really attractive. You know, they manage to make distinctive vehicles that just are really beautiful cars, I think, and crossovers, without resorting to some of the things that you see, like, Audi and BMW do right now that are, like, so over the top.
So, like, the Mazda 6, one of the best-looking cars, I think, on the market, you know, and you see that throughout the lineup. So yeah, that's the CX30. I enjoyed it more than the mini Countryman I was in the week prior. You know, it's-- you got a bunch of different things like the Impreza, the Hyundai Kona-- there's a lot of things going on in these sort of, like, price points-- like, small crossover-type things. But this would be near the top of my list if I were in the market, because it's quite good.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: You know what else fits in that segment? The Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross.
GREG MIGLIORE: Tell me about it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: How's that for a segue, Greg?
GREG MIGLIORE: That's good.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, you know, the Eclipse Cross-- this is a weird vehicle. This segment that everybody is playing in-- by everybody, I mean, like, every car company in America-- offers a vehicle that-- offers a crossover at this price point. So you're looking at everything from the Toyota CHR to the Honda HR-V to the Chevy-- I mean, they've got several different subcompact crossovers.
Ford has the EcoSport and the Escape. And, like, there's just so many vehicles vying for the same buyers that it's overwhelming, I think, as a car shopper. So I'm just going to-- I'm going to simplify this a little bit and talk about the Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross versus the Honda HR-V and the Subaru Crosstrek. Because some of the entries like the Toyota are really small, don't offer all-wheel drive, and you know, I kind of think they're appealing to a different customer.
And then others are on the larger side, and they've got, like, inexpensive base models that reach down into the same pricing structure. But even amidst this, like, really weird amalgam of vehicles, the Eclipse Cross is still weird. It still stands out as odd, because it's actually built on the same platform with the same wheelbase as the Outlander-- well, the outgoing Outlander that ended in 2020-- and the Outlander Sport.
They all have a 105.1-inch wheel base. They're all-- and we're used to judging the size of a vehicle based on its wheel base. But somehow, like, Mitsubishi's managed to make three different crossovers on that same wheelbase size that are marketed to different people and sized slightly differently, but kind of still the same. So I've narrowed it down to the Honda HR-V and the Subaru Crosstrek, because those are both rather large vehicles for their segment as well with plenty of space cargo and rear seat.
I really like the Crosstrek. It's probably the vehicle that I would direct most buyers to in the segment. The Honda HR-V is extremely comfortable, has plenty of space, good sight lines, and it's a Honda, which you expect good reliability, resale value, that kind of thing out of. The big problem that I have with the Crosstrek is that it's boring.
It offers very little by way of excitement-- no turbocharged engine option. The Honda HR-V, while its bones and guts are very good, it's extremely boring to drive. And it has one of the worst CVT implementations that you're going to come across in America. And I think part of that is because the engine just has almost no torque.
So why did I go on this tangent on the Subaru and the Honda when I'm talking about the Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross? It's because the Eclipse Cross is actually an interesting alternative to anyone who's shopping for a Subaru Crosstrek or Honda HR-V. The Mitsubishi also has a CDT, but it's paired with a 1.5-liter turbo charged 4-cylinder with a lot more torque than the Honda.
So you don't get, like, stuck in that constant engine drone in the Mitsubishi that you do in the Honda. So just the act of everyday driving the thing, I would pick the Eclipse Cross before I picked the HR-V because I just can't stand Honda's transmission and engine tuning. It just drives me absolutely insane. The Subaru is really boring, and it's a naturally aspirated engine.
In natural, flat elevations and in daily driving, you don't really need the turbo charged option in the Crosstrek. But as some of our other colleagues like Chris McGraw, who lives in Colorado and drives into the mountains all the time, is quick to point out a naturally aspirated engine might lose 30% of its power once you get up in the mountains. And it seems extremely underpowered, just like the HR-V does.
Turbo charged engines don't suffer from that. So again, that's a buying case why someone might choose the Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross over a Crosstrek. So I guess this is a long, drawn out way of saying, don't discount the Mitsubishi just because it's a Mitsubishi, and you don't see them very often, and it's not one of the big sellers.
It actually is a perfectly fine entry. It's competent in all the areas that it needs to be competent in. It actually looks interesting. It has some unique style to it that I think might attract some buyers. And it's just all around more interesting than some of the other vehicles in its segment. All of that said, I don't think that this redesign is going to, like, somehow jettison the Eclipse Cross into a strong sales position.
The Crosstrek and the HR-V are still absolutely going to out-sell it. But I just think, forgetting that it exists, which is what most buyers probably do, is not really fair. It's fully competent. It deserves a look. And especially in its very highest trim level with the nice leather interior and all the options that it comes with, it's actually kind of compelling. I can see why someone would choose it over some of the cars that drastically out-sell it.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think that's actually a really good point. It's been a while since I've really tested any Mitsubishi, but when I have, I've been generally impressed just with the variety of-- the styling is interesting. You know, a lot of times, the interiors are decent. And yeah, I mean I'm right there with you-- it's like, you know, the brand is kind of invisible in the US market.
But when you get into one, you know, you're kind of like, oh, hey, this is pretty good. You know, I mean, it definitely is a brand the struggles with the perception of, you know, just not being as good as some of the other brands. But I mean, it's-- you know, in reality, when you test them, I found them to be very, very competitive-- not top of class, but competitive.
I would take the Honda, or Toyota, or Subaru that, you know, you mentioned over. But you know, I think that's also a reasonable play. I mean, just to speak of the brand, I love the EVO. I'll throw that in the discussion.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. You know, when I wrote the "First Drive," you know, I went into it with the attitude that I think most people have is that this is going to be uncompetitive. And like, yeah, OK, I'll give it a try. And I was pleasantly surprised. And I knew that when I wrote it up, there was going to be a contingent of our readers that would read my write-up and find that I wasn't super harsh on it, and that being the news-- like, wow, he didn't bash it.
You know, like, and there was one comment on the Eclipse Crosstrek "First Drive," where someone said something to the effect of, how much money did Mitsubishi pay you to recommend this-- and in all caps-- DEPLORABLE vehicle? And like, I would love to be able to respond if that person wanted to be actually rational about it. I'd like to respond and say, like, well, let me ask you-- have you driven the Honda HR-V back to back with the Eclipse Crosstrek, because I actually have.
And if you're going to hand me the keys to one of them, I'm going to take the Mitsubishi, because it's more interesting. I like the engine a lot better. And the transmission doesn't want to drive me insane. So just based on those little issues, I'll take the Mitsubishi. Plus, it's got a 10-year, 100,000-mile powertrain warranty. So if you're concerned that it doesn't have the reputation of reliability, which Mitsubishi's reputation for reliability isn't terrible.
So do I love CVTs? No. Would I take Mitsubishi CVT over Honda's? Absolutely. And like I said, if you live in elevation and are narrowing your choices down to turbo charged engines, then yeah, give the Mitsubishi a fair shot.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. Yeah, tell us about the Outlander that you also spent a little bit of time in as well.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. The Outlander was-- I went into the Outlander drive expecting it to be pretty darn good, because it now shares the chassis and drivetrain with the brand new Nissan Rogue. The Rogue actually is one of the best sellers in the compact crossover segment. It will continue to be so in its new 2021 iteration.
We were talking a little bit ago about Mitsubishi not being particularly competitive. And I think the one area where it was least competitive was in the biggest segment, which is the Outlander compared to a RAV4, or a CRV, or an Escape, or pick your favorite comeback crossover-- or Forester. The big issue with the Outlander was that it shared that same wheelbase with the smaller entries. And it did not have the kind of room inside that its competitors had.
That's gone. And I don't think that the compact crossover should be on the same-- it's silly to me that the Outlander and the Eclipse Cross are very different-- trying to attract a very different buyer but were built on the same guts. It just didn't make sense. The Outlander should be an altogether larger and, frankly, better vehicle because it costs more. It finally is that.
The chassis is, like, revolutionarily-- that's not a word, but I'm going to use it anyway-- better than the 2020 Outlander. It's like-- I mean, car companies give us, like, crazy statistics on how much stiffer a new platform is than the last one. And normally, it's like, OK, thank you for the numbers. But actually driving this one, you're like, wow, this is finally a super solid platform.
I went through all the press materials and was was just, like, pouring through the data, because it was so interesting to me. Everything from the suspension arms, to the bushings, to the steering rack-- like, absolutely everything was significantly more rigid than the old one. It's Mitsubishi's first-ever aluminum front suspension arms, which you're like, how is that possible that Mitsubishi didn't have cast aluminum suspension arms before? But they didn't, and now they do.
Like, just everything about it is an absolute, like, sea change over the Outlander that it replaced. I think it definitely deserves attention in the segment. But the one thing that I'll say is it looks very divisive in pictures. When you're looking at it online, like, you're seeing its face, it's got, like, Chrome swooshes on it. It's got, like, a big black grill in between.
And like, I think seeing it in-person is really what's required to actually take it in as a cohesive design. It looks much better in the sheet metal when you're standing at eye's height looking at it than it does in many of the pictures that you'll see online. And it also drives much better than you'd expect. Honestly, it makes me extremely excited to see what the Outlander PHEV will-- you know, how that will come out of the gates.
Will it be based on the old model's powertrain technology? Will it still have the older Mitsubishi engine and power train? Or will it be a completely different one based on the alliance with Nissan Renault? It's exciting, because if Mitsubishi can make a good vehicle out of its Outlander PHEV, I think that's very much the car that could bridge the gap for buyers looking to go green, looking to electrify with a plug-in.
Range anxiety is not going to be a thing, because it's still got an engine. And if they can give significantly more range than the current model so that a lot of people are actually driving on electricity only in their day-to-day driving duties, it really could be one of those vehicles that gets a lot of people used to the idea of driving an electric car. Because I think a lot of people have this mindset that they don't want one because of all the reasons that we talk about-- whether they incorrectly think that they're just as dirty because the power has to come from somewhere.
That's been disproven over and over again. But based on the comments on our own posts and what I read online, a lot of people still believe that myth. Or a lot of people think that they're never going to find the charging station. They're going to think that, well, every once in a while a couple of times a year, I might drive 200 miles in a day to visit family or something, and they're not going to be able to charge it. That's also not true for most people.
90% of the population can, on those rare instances, spend 30 minutes finding a charger and charging it up with a fast charger. But anyway, good to digress-- go back to the current one that's powered by the gasoline engine. It's not perfect. The third seat is extremely small.
It's the kind of third seat that's only going to be useful in a pinch or for very small people. Because if you slide the middle row to a point where an adult can actually sit in back, you're still going to be hunched over. He or she's still going to be hunched over because of a lack of headroom. And you just compromised the leg room with the second row as well.
So definitely a limited use third row, but the kind of thing that will come in handy in a pinch. Fully competitive, better than you expect it to be, they deserve to really boost their market share in the compact crossover segment based on this new Outlander.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think that's a good point. I think, you know, we can just leave it there. Check out these reviews, obviously, on "Autoblog." Is the Outlander up, or is that? That's going up--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It went up today.
GREG MIGLIORE: It went up today. Got it. Sounds good-- well, they're both up then. Check them out, jump in on the comments. And you know, always good to discuss our reviews. So let's move on to our listings. Yeah, we've got early-2000s to mid-2000s Pontiac GTO. This is a feature you may or may not have noticed, but if you haven't, check it out.
We're kind of looking back at some of just used cars that you can, obviously, take a look at on "Autoblog" and make it offer if you're interested to the people who are selling them-- we just have the listings. But some of just the cars are interesting. You know, they resonate for a variety of reasons. One of my favorites is this mid-00s GTO. That's a feature that by the time you're listening to this, this story will be live, I'm sure. Why did this one kind of resonate for you, Jeremy?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, with this used car spotlight feature that we're doing, we're trying to pick out a vehicle that isn't top of mind for people who are out buying used vehicles. The GTO is easy to forget. First of all, it's been a decade and a half since this was a new vehicle. The Pontiac brand doesn't even exist, let alone the GTO.
It was a limited production vehicle built on an Australian car and shipped over here with a classic American name. It was pretty expensive when it was new also. So I don't remember exactly the number. But over the course of the entire three-year production run, I don't know, it was, like, less than 50,000 that they sold-- 40,000, something in that range.
So it's definitely one of those vehicles that flies under the radar. If you're not a Pontiac fan or up on your muscle car history, it's easy to forget the the 2004 to 2006 GTO. You can read all about it in our Used Car Spotlight, that as Greg said will be live by the time you're listening to this. But some of the interesting statistics about it-- in 2004, it came with a 5.7-liter V8-- either a four-speed automatic or six speed manual transmission.
The one that's more desirable is the 2005 or 2006, because that's the 6-liter LS2 engine as opposed to the 5.7-liter LS1. Bumped horsepower to an even 400 and a matching 400-pound feed of torque-- again, four-speed automatic or six-speed manual transmission, rear-wheel drive, very luxurious, very comfortable. It's just an excellent daily driver that also happens to be able to do a quarter mile in 13 seconds flat.
And I mean, it shouldn't be an off-the-radar car, but it is. So we want to bring it back up, bring it back into people's minds. If you're looking for something second-hand that is exciting, that you can enjoy driving, and maybe even has the potential to appreciate in value over the years, that 2004 to 2006 GTO deserves a look.
GREG MIGLIORE: Certainly was a rare bird, if you will. I mean, this is just-- like, I mean, just an Australian car that was imported here, only sold for a few years, two slightly different V8s. And of course, this is during a time when, like, this is right on the, like, edge of this new sports car performance horsepower war thing. And that's-- you know, this is like when car companies were trying to sort of figure out if there even was a market for these types of cars.
You know, Pontiac was sort of struggling to try to survive, and they obviously didn't for much longer. But yeah, it's a cool car. It's one of my favorites. It's definitely kind of a, you know, a b-side, a nuanced one that's very easy to slip in the dusty pages of history. They're out there, you can get them, just check out our listings.
You know, you can see one as cheap as about-- just a little under $10 grand, if you're willing to take some miles on it. I thought they looked pretty good. But I will actually throw the Toyota 86 Subaru BRZ argument at this car, in that I did think it was a little too subtle. If you're going to put the GTO name on it, I was expecting something more like-- like, there were rumors floating around in this same time period of what they were going to do with the Impala, and it was, like, really impressive.
There were sketches that Bob Lutz would basically show anybody who asked. I don't know how serious they were. But I mean, there was, like, a school of thought that, you know, GM, Chevy, Pontiac might go down the, like, the Charger route, if you will, that Dodge and Chrysler ended up going down. And they didn't-- they just kind of dabbled with the. And then we did get the SS, I guess, and the Pontiac G8, but those were, perhaps, even more niche than the GTO actually was.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. I actually mentioned both the G8 and the SS in the-- like, towards the end of the write-up on our Used Car Spotlight on the GTO. You know, something to keep in mind is we're basically talking about a Corvette engine--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's true--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: That they put into the Pontiac. And think back to this time-- the Mustang made 300-horsepower-- the Mustang GT made 300 horsepower in 2006. The GTO was 400 horsepower. The Camaro didn't even exist at the time. It was on its hiatus. And the new one that coincided with the birth of the "Transformers" franchise, that was still several years off.
And the Challenger didn't exist yet. The Dodge Charger and Magnum, they were out, but the Challenger didn't come for another couple of years. And when it did, the RT had 375-horse from its Hemi V8. There was the 6.1-liter SRT8, which is kind of like a unique beast in and of itself. But I'm bringing all this up as context as to why the GTO is worth your attention.
Like, no one thumbs their nose at a Challenger RT with the Hemi and 375 horsepower. You similarly shouldn't thumb your nose at a 2005 or 2006 GTO with 400 horsepower, and an available six-speed manual transmission, and actually, a pretty darn comfortable and luxurious interior.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes, that's a great point. I mean, just to throw the spotlight back to that, you know, the turn of the century, if you will-- I mean, 400 horsepower at that time was a lot of horsepower. I mean, that was-- and also, this is a pretty small car. I mean, you're getting a real hot rod here, you know? It's really something.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It's a 13-second quarter mile. I mean, that's fast. And it's an LS engine. I mean, there's nothing you can't do to an LS engine if you want to make the car faster. And as a daily driver, as a fun little weekend getaway car, there's actually-- I saw one. There's a 2005, I think-- I don't remember for sure, but there's one here in Ohio for $12,000.
And I saw it when I was building this thing up. And I'm like, man, like, I'm convincing myself that I should go look at this thing as a second vehicle. I mean, I'm realistically not going to. But it's very compelling. Like, what's not to like about that?
GREG MIGLIORE: We can leave it there. If you want to spend some money on that, I would totally support it. But how about we spend some more of Jacob and Colleen's money? We've now talked about them a couple of times on the podcast. We're getting close to the point where maybe we should start giving them, like, screen credits or something.
But an update-- and Jeremy, actually, when I was showing the letter here, had kind of a slightly an additional take on the earlier advice. So first things first, it sounds like Jacob is going to get a Bullet. That was one of the things he had mentioned for his sort of sportscar idea, test drove one, and just liked it more than his 350Z-- so doubled down, and he's going to go for that.
So keep us posted there when you actually go ahead and buy it. Colleen actually gave us a little bit more of an update. She was actually looking to replace her Pilot-- vary anti-CVT, likes to keep cars for a very long time. Thanks for the recommendations. This is from episode 670 if you want to go back and reference it. We can probably throw this letter in the body of the post here if you're looking.
Thanks for the recommendations. Go ahead, you can look at some of the Toyotas we recommended. Her next thing is she's going to go test drive a Highlander, a RAV4, or a 4Runner. I think that was one of my suggestions. Honda Passport, Kid Sorento, and maybe a Santa Fe-- a Hyundai Santa Fe XL for the third row. Looking for a month to see if she's going to purchase or make a purchase decision.
So that's kind of an update. They're narrowing the field, they're taking some of our suggestions. Thanks for writing, guys. But before we get out of here, Jeremy, you had some more advice.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: OK. So this is going to sound a little offbeat, I know, but based on everything she said-- she doesn't like CVTs, she doesn't like crazy high tech interiors with touch screens everywhere. She likes more of the traditional gauge clusters, and buttons, and switches. She's really big into reliability.
She says she's got 180-something thousand miles on her Honda, and she likes the idea of a reliable vehicle. She likes the rugged look. Because we suggested the 4Runner, she's going to go take one of those for a spin. She likes the Telluride too, but it's just a little bit too big.
I crunched some numbers, and I came up with an alternative that I don't think we've brought up yet. And I'm giving this one from personal experience-- I own a Lexus GX 460. It rides on the same platform as the Toyota 4Runner. She's looking to spend $30 to $35,000.
I ran some figures. You can get a 2017 between $30 and $35,000 with less than 50,000 miles on it. This is an outlier. It started out-- probably was a $55 to $65,000 vehicle when new. On the used market, they're pretty reasonable-- $30,000 to $35,000.
You mentioned, Colleen, you were looking at 2017 and newer. In the case of the GX, you could look at a '15 or '16 as well. They are the same thing. There weren't any changes to even talk about. They are one of the most reliable vehicles on the road today. If you run all the numbers from Consumer Reports, all the numbers from some of the other companies that do these things-- IC Cars, Edmunds-- everyone who does these things finds that the Lexus GX is one of the most reliable vehicles in the world.
Another thing it's got going for it is safety. This is something that was near and dear to me before I bought my GX 460. If you look at-- not to get morbid on it, but if you look at the FARS list-- that's the fatality by miles rate-- the Lexus GX is in the top echelon of vehicles you are least likely to die in an accident. So safety, check mark, reliability, durability, check mark-- one of them one of the most reliable, durable vehicles that you can buy.
And it's actually smaller than a Telluride. You think that they're pretty big-- it's four inches narrower and something like five inches shorter-- four or five inches shorter, a little bit taller. So if you've got-- if the height is an issue, then forget it. But it does offer a third row and a sliding middle row. We use that third row from time to time.
The one thing-- you also mentioned get up and go. It's a V8, six-speed automatic transmission. It's not super powerful, but I mean, it's got plenty of torque. It definitely doesn't feel underpowered in comparison to some of the other vehicles that you're probably driving or testing. The one thing is it's not going to get great gas mileage.
Depending on who's driving, whether the air conditioning is on, how many people are in the car, stop and go traffic-- I've seen as low as 15 miles per gallon. I usually get more like 16.5 to 17.5 on daily driving. On long highway trips, I get about 21 miles per gallon. So fuel mileage is not great, but it does check all of your other boxes.
It's an outlier, but maybe give one to look if you can find one for sale near you. It's definitely more luxurious and substantial than some of the other vehicles you're looking at. And maybe you'll like it.
GREG MIGLIORE: What year is yours?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Mine's a 2010, which was the first year that they went to the 460. It's actually the same 4.6-liter V8 that-- well, very similar-- to what they put in the Toyota Tundra pickup trucks, similar automatic transmission as well. I think one of the reasons why they're so reliable and durable is they've got these heavy duty engines that are made for pickup trucks, and towing, and hauling, that those cars kind of get a boost from time to time.
And a lot of the four-wheel drive software comes from the legendary Land Cruiser. So I mean, all the guts are extremely solid. So you know, it's worth looking at. I ultimately found that it fit my family needs. We're going to eventually replace it with something electric when that possibility comes up.
We got our eye on a Rivian if they ever actually hit the market and, you know, we can make it work financially. But yeah, like, give it a look. You said you like to keep your cars a long time. And if you're going to do that, getting one of the most reliable, one of the most durable options doesn't sound like a bad idea.
GREG MIGLIORE: Very cool. That's good advice-- good advice from someone who actually has lived it and knows his vehicle inside and out. I concur wholeheartedly. So Jacob and Colleen, thanks for writing. Good luck with your-- good luck with your purchases. Let us know how it all turns out in the end. We'll try to get some other people on this segment, but Thanks for--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I'm super interested, yeah-- super interested in hearing what-- I mean, I'm whole heartedly in approval with the Bullet. That's a great choice.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, for sure.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So if Jacob goes with that, I think that's super cool. And I'm very curious to see how Colleen ends up too.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. We'll leave it there. Thanks for the time this week, Jeremy. Everybody be safe out there. We will see you next week.
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