In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd. They start out talking about Scout's new facility in South Carolina and what Volkswagen Group wants to do with its new truck and SUV brand. From there, they briefly revisit the General Motors F1 controversy with some fresh perspective. After that, it's a look at some 80s classics to watch care of Hagerty. Then it's on to pricing for the new Toyota Land Cruiser and current Ford EV incentives, followed by a look at hybrids and the current state of electrification. We wrap the show with some Cadillac Escalade diesel and CT4-V Blackwing impressions, plus another update on our long-term Toyota Sienna, which will be departing shortly.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
Transcript[AUDIO LOGO]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to "The Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We've got a great show for you this week. We're to talk about the state of Scout, that is the Volkswagen-owned electric vehicle startup with a great history and perhaps a very interesting future. We're going to talk about the future of F1 as it relates to American teams. There's an interesting column last week of the "Detroit Free Press" about how maybe this is not a bad thing that Formula One basically told them, hey, thanks but no thanks.
So we'll talk about that. We'll talk about some 80s classics that are fairly affordable, some price cuts on the Ford Mustang Mach-E, and the actual pricing of the Toyota Land Cruiser. So small trucks from Chevy, some reviews, things we've been driving, more GM stuff, CTV-4 Blackwing, and the Escalade diesel, plus a long-term update on our Toyota Sienna minivan. With that, associate editor Byron Hurd, what's up, man?
BYRON HURD: Hey, it's good to be here. I apologize my voice is a little rough. I picked up a cold or something on my trip to the Scout groundbreaking in South Carolina, which we'll get to talk about here in a bit. So some interesting news from that and looking forward to share it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. Sounds good. For those of you who aren't fully read in on this, Scout is officially breaking ground on a factory where they will build their EVs in South Carolina. We said Byron down there to be literally out of the ground floor as they dug said ground floor and get a sense of what this is going to be.
I think Scout is really appealing for me as a guy who likes off-roaders, likes retro themed off-roaders in particular. And I'm always intrigued by brands and just old stuff, things that have that kind of dusty history, a little bit of the history and the mystery which really sums up what Scout is. You know, they date back to the '70s, early '80S I think the '60S actually.
And, you know, they made some cool-looking vehicles. They were pretty primitive, but they were out there. And then they went away in the 80s. And now basically what Volkswagen Group is trying to do positioning this as a independent subsidiary and treating it like a startup with some commonality. They are going to get purchasing and some basically behind the scenes parts, things that the consumer won't see, feel, touch, or care about. That's what Volkswagen's going to help with, but the rest is going to be all Scout.
Again, it reminds me how different brands like I think Abercrombie and Fitch was basically random example that comes to mind. It was basically like an outdoor store that Teddy Roosevelt shopped at. And then it went away. And then it came back as like a mall, clothing store 90 years later. And there's other brands like that have these histories that started and stopped and then came back and meant what they did before. They're kind of trading on that but also trying to make it mean something going forward.
Shinola, I think is another good example of that, shoe polish, but it sounds like it's been around for hundreds of years. But the watches have been around for about 15. So that's kind of where Scout comes in, and I think that's where you can kind of come in. What was it like to see this, you know, this groundbreaking?
BYRON HURD: Well, it was an impressive sight, I'll say that. They were planning to actually take us around to physically inspect like some of the progress that they've actually made on the site. Unfortunately, it had rained, and they didn't want to drag us through the mud just to go to some concrete pilings and things like that. So we did get an aerial overview of the site. It's very impressive. A couple of old farms that were consolidated by the local municipalities that were looking to get some development to the area.
They were successful, obviously. They've drawn a pretty large investment here. But the real point of going down there was to get some face time with the Scout team and get an idea for what Volkswagen's executive team really wants to see from this brand. And really I have nothing but good news to share. I mean, they've already told us really what to expect from the vehicles.
I mean, these are going to be a body-on-frame frame truck and a body-on-frame SUV. We are not looking at-- even Scott Keogh, the CEO, who was formerly with Audi, formerly with VW of America, you know products he's responsible for, and you probably heard some of his quotes because he's a straight shooter. He will tell you what you need to hear, what actually needs to be said. You don't get the runaround with Scott.
So he sat down with us, and he said, look, we are tackling this like a heritage brand. Like it's a startup attitude, sure, but with big money behind it and the history behind it. And they have tapped into everybody they can get their hands on. They had people there who were private owners brought their Scouts to the events. They had aftermarket groups that do Scout restomods.
They brought some of their restomods to the event. Scout has actually gone out and purchased some old Scouts to build their own heritage collection. They had those at the event. They were saying, look, like this is our history. This is what we want to do again and better even if we weren't there for the first round. So they're taking it very seriously.
They have what they're calling the Scout Encyclopedia. So basically, the brand Bible that they're essentially reforging based on what they're getting from owners, what they're getting from, you know, whatever scraps of corporate history they can dig up, all of that. And they're building their new brand bible for this company.
And there are a lot of people involved in the enthusiast community. A couple of names people might even recognize. If you know Jamie Vondruska who was responsible for VW Vortex, his team is involved in this helping with building this entire like brand vault. Like, there's a big enthusiast push from the ground. And you see it in what they're planning for this car.
I mean, these are going to be, like I said, body on frame. We're talking about locking differentials. They want trucks that are going to be seen as trucks first. And Scott told us, we do not want people to look at this as just an ID.4 with big tires on it. It's got nothing to do with any of Volkswagen's other existing electrical architectures, literally nothing.
Yes, they'll share components as you pointed out, but the whole idea behind this is ground-up independent brand that can enjoy some of the benefits of being part of that greater Volkswagen conglomerate but still be Scout first. They want to go after Jeep. They want to go after Land Cruiser. They want to go after Bronco. They want to go after Land Rover.
They want to establish themselves as a premium, off-road, hardcore, enthusiast brand first, foremost, and period. That's just it. This is not a mass market brand. This is not meant to reach, you know, entry-level consumers who just want something that is effectively a tribute. They want to go after the 4x4 market.
So we're going to see a simultaneous launch of the SUV and pickup at least in terms of seeing the vehicles. And then we expect they can't realistically launch both vehicles at the same time just like we've seen with Rivian where you can see that either the pickup first or the SUV first, and then they'll transition into the new one as they come online eventually reaching a volume of around 200,000 units a year, ideally.
So it's going to be big. It's going to be a real brand. We're not talking about triple digits entry-level pricing, you know, you can't afford it unless you are going to set it next to a 911 GT3 RS in your driveway. It's not that kind of situation. But expect them to go for that premium kind of upmarket 4x4 brand infringing a little bit on Land Rover, maybe even a little on Range Rover if they can get away with it. We'll see. Like, you know, that's not in the initial push, but I have a feeling they'll look for premium options if they can.
But, like, just expect them to go hard on the same things that we see from the existing big 4x4 brands. We asked them about the possibility of things like the Ford Bronco Off-Roadeo, and Jeeps had Camp Jeep and different Jeep-based events for owners for decades. Things like that are absolutely on the table, not necessarily planned out or mapped out right now, but those are the kinds of things that Scout wants to do going forward.
They want to build that same brand base, build that same customer base, and establish a community that can carry the brand forward. So they're very serious about it. Obviously, the money is being spent in earnest. They want to get this facility up and physically in place by the end of the year. And they want to be building trucks within the next two. So it's going to be slam bang. We're going to see the vehicles in pretty close to production spec this summer. And then from there, it's just going to be a really aggressive cadence while they try to get this thing off the ground.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting when you look at their plan. In some ways, it's somewhat of the Rivian playbook, which is have like basically, a two-pronged strategy. You know, you've got an SUV and a truck and, you know, it's electric. So I think it makes a lot of sense because when you think of an area that people are really like fired up on is trucks and SUVs you can make electric and away you go.
So I think their product strategy is precise, and it seems to be very-- I think it's going to be on point. So I like that part of it. I like the throwback part of it as well. If you're kind of listening to this and wondering, what the hell is a Scout? What was International Harvester? I mean, think like basically what like a '60s kind of Bronco looked like. It's a very similar vibe.
Frankly, from a distance, you would probably do a double take as to what's what. But the Scout 2 which ran in mainly from the '70s that's kind of the one I think of when I really have an image of what Scout was in my head. And they're very like '60s and '70s vehicles, you know, even right down to the color scheme.
And some of that stuff is cool again. You see different, like, people wearing like different coats, you know, that kind of '70s orange and red color scheme is back. So I do think there's opportunity here for them. And also the brand name, the name of the car of the trucks, of the SUVs, Scout it's very nebulous. Like you would not immediately think Volkswagen.
Because I think there's some people might like that and some people might be like, no, I don't think I want to buy a Volkswagen SUV. So I think just having it is such a kind of walled off startup, if you will, is a good thing. I mean, granted they cherry picked one of the, like, you know, off-the-shelf CEO type who ran Audi in the US.
He actually ran PR, I think, for, I think, it was Audi way back. He had a ranking position with Volkswagen. He's definitely, like, a decision maker in the United States that, you know, the Germans turn to when they want something run well in this country. So, I think, that's really a good thing for the future of Scout as well.
And I don't think you could undersell the heritage play. You know, the more you look at the old ones, the more you get excited, at least I do about driving one of these things in the future. And the fact that they're going-- I mean, they didn't leave the door open that there's going to be any sort of like inline four or turbo six, this is an all electric brand.
So it's also to use another kind of like thread at this, it's almost like if Bollinger had made their original, I think, it was the B1 they called it and had the resources to do that. That's kind of what they're going for. I mean, I think Rivians are super cool as far as like, hey, what do I want in buying a car as an emotional purchase, they look cool. I think there's a lot there.
I think Scout has the potential to even go farther than Rivian as far as playing into that emotional like just why you want a vehicle. Something we probably haven't totally seen since the Bronco launched a couple of years ago, now at this point, a couple few years ago.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, agreed. And the one advantage that Scout has here is, like, they they're kind of trying to take credit for the notion of the SUV, which it's arguable. But if you think about it, I mean, you look at the Scout I predates Bronco, predates several other nameplates that we, kind of, think of as like the established original vintage American SUVs.
So while it's a bit dubious to say they invented the segment, they were certainly there when it was being created. Like, they were part of that Genesis story even if they weren't alpha and omega. So it's a play that that they're counting on, you know, bringing the community in on. It's not-- you know, like, the general public doesn't have to be completely bought into the heritage angle if they can produce a cool EV that happens to be a really nice 4x4. Like just start there produce the product.
And we look at Volkswagen as a company its success in the US has been really kind of fleeting and fragile. Like, they've had big hits. Obviously, you know, the original Beetle and the vans, I mean, they've had their moments. But every time it seems like Volkswagen's really been on the cusp of cracking the US market, something's gone horribly wrong.
Their reliability struggles in the early 2000s after great product launches in the late '90s really kind of hit them hard. And you look again at the build up in the early like 20-teens was doing really well. The Dieselgate kind of kneecapped them. Obviously, that was their fault. You can't blame that on market forces or anything like that. But, you know, every time it really seems like they've gained momentum here, they've lost it somehow.
Scout is kind of a blank check for them. This is a chance for them to say, we're doing America the American way. We don't have to deal with the legacy issues of Volkswagen or deal with the brand identity of Volkswagen. We're a separate company. We're doing Scout things. We're not doing Volkswagen things. It's the first time Volkswagen has really had an opportunity to do something like that here and do it right from the ground up.
So I think there's a lot of potential there for them to build a lot of corporate goodwill in the United States, especially because it's kind of clean slate in a way. So my fingers are crossed. I'm very impressed by what everybody had to say. It feels like there's a really good team in place, and they're going to produce cool trucks. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works out.
GREG MIGLIORE: Maybe that's a good listicle as I'm thinking out loud is who really made the first SUV? Because I'm pretty sure when I was driving a Chevy Suburban a few years ago it was like the new generation, oh, they're very proud to say they invented the SUV in 1935. So, you know, some things to think about there.
But hey, you know, Scout has as much of a claim as anybody. I mean that's one of the great things about some of these, you know, about the car business. It reminds me a lot of like college football where everybody could claim a national title on a certain year it seems like at least until there was a playoff. So things like that could be, you know, the history and the mystery like I said at the start.
So yeah, I'm pretty optimistic about this. It's been interesting to-- you know, again, check out Byron's piece. He kind of breaks down what this means. You know, if you're on the patio this weekend, it's supposed to be kind of spring-like maybe you're grilling-- I think I'm going to do that-- and you want to have some fun time while you're waiting for the steaks to hit the right temperature, check out that story. It's pretty good.
A lot of different outlets have, I think, parachuted into this. Like "The New York Times" has discovered that Scout is a thing. And I think it's always interesting when you see like, you know, as a subscriber, I like to see where they put their resources into, like, an issue like this. That's kind of cool. And the different EV sites have really gone on sort of that angle. So there's really a lot to unpack here. And I think it's, you know, enthusiasts it's definitely a topic that is worth getting excited about. So anything else? You know, any other product things they didn't roll one out like a rolling prototype, anything like that?
BYRON HURD: No, no. The most impressive mockup that they had there was a literal 3D model of the actual plant site.
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, that's cool.
BYRON HURD: There will be a picture of that in the article, so you can check that out too if you're curious. But no, nothing to physically see yet but soon. I mean, we're only a few months away at this point. So we should comfortably say we should have a concrete idea of what's going on within the next six months.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. Sounds good. All right, so let's transition over to some Formula One news. A couple of weeks ago-- well, it was about a month ago at this point, F1 basically rejected Andretti Cadillac's bid to be the 11th team on the grid. They were ambitiously hoping to do it not this year but next year, which would have meant they would have had to develop basically two cars. And it's fairly unlikely they would have been super competitive, especially that first season.
Down the road, who knows? I think they certainly would have had the resources from Cadillac, from General Motors. I think it's highly unlikely they would have been consistently the worst team forever. It's just like any expansion team in any sport they, you know, sort of get their sea legs eventually. We were all kind of up in arms on it as it seemed like Formula One was really arrogantly, you know, turning its nose up against the American entry.
And at a time when I think Formula One really needs the US. They really do. It's very popular. There's a lot of races here. A lot of great settings for Formula One. And I think if they want to grow the sport in the world's richest market, why wouldn't you want to do that? And I'm not saying, hey, just give us as Americans a team and put it on the grid.
But, you know, Road Test editor Zac Palmer wrote a column saying how they really were supremely arrogant to their way of sort of rejecting the bid in a way that you know-- I mean, if you look at some of the team names and some of the, you know, people who have run Formula One, this isn't exactly the paragon of like, you know, excellence. It's a circus.
And frankly, that's why a lot of us kind of like it, you know. But interesting column in the "Detroit Free Press" written by their auto critic Mark Phelan. I thought it would be interesting to kind of riff on it because he knows cars very well. He knows the industry. And his take was, hey, this is a blessing in disguise. General Motors would have had to put a lot of money into this. It, you know, eventually it probably would have worked. That sports eventually teams start to win. Luck changes. You get the people, the resources.
And it's funny because I was reading this on my phone Saturday and thought, wow. You know, I kind of had this thought in my head. But the more I kept reading it, it almost changed my opinion, which I think is a good column, right, that maybe they dodged a bullet here. So, I mean, what do you think?
BYRON HURD: I mean, it's a valid point, especially given everything that's been coming out of GM for the past few weeks about the state of Ultium development and their sudden about face on the idea of doing hybrid and plug-in hybrid engines again. Like, it seems like we're looking at yet another cultural shift for GM. And GM being GM cultural shifts don't happen quickly.
So it sounds like it's going to take some time for them to grind this one out. And there's some point in here that that F1 would be a distraction that they really can't afford right now. And it is an expensive one, and, obviously, that money has to come from somewhere. And we've seen, obviously, none of the Detroit automakers are struggling financially right now, so the fact that it costs money is just a line item.
But still they have a lot of piles of chips, and maybe it's time to consolidate a few of them. So I think it's a valid point. And I'm not necessarily certain I'm 100% behind it, but it's absolutely a defensible position.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think, it's, you know, Ford is getting into the sport as an engine supplier. That's one that, I think, frankly, I go back and forth on this one. You know, as an engine supplier, you're in Formula 1, right? You know, you're you're a power unit supplier. You can fly the Ford flag. You can take credit for any victories that happen. Look at what Renault does.
But at the same time, are you really in it? I think what Cadillac was trying to do with Andretti was much more of a full court press. And I think the ceiling for what they could have sort of reaped out of it as far as just total image could have been really, you know, impressive. You imagine, say, an Andretti Cadillac team winning the Miami Grand Prix. I mean, that is like a Super Bowl ad or something.
So it was an interesting take. And I would say this, I think it changed my position a little bit. I still think I'm still kind of mad at Formula One. But I also think, you know what? For GM, for Cadillac, this is disappointing. I wouldn't even say they're necessarily better off, but it's probably not the worst thing in the world that it played out this way. You know, if you look at BMW, Toyota, Honda, how many companies-- big companies have tried and failed at this? Not saying they would have, but it certainly would have been a distraction.
BYRON HURD: And I appreciate-- I think it takes a certain bravado to do what Ford is doing because the unfortunate reality of especially Motorsports is if you produce an engine, a power unit, whatever we're going to call it that does its job and does it well, meaning that it's reliable and actually produces, so if it actually does its job and does it well and the team wins, the team gets credit.
If it does its job and does it well and the team loses, no one notices. If it doesn't do its job or do it well, everybody notices. So really there are two kinds of situations where you kind of net out kind of neutral, and one where everything goes horribly wrong for you. So it takes a certain degree of confidence to say yeah, we're certain we're not going to embarrass ourselves on an international stage, but also we're not really putting ourselves in a position to take too much credit for victory.
And that's, I guess, a sign of financial confidence saying, yeah, we can afford to spend this without gaining much from it even if it's, like, you know, in terms of marketing, anyway. Obviously, they'll gain engineering knowledge and all that. But, you know, you look at it from a pure like ROI from an exposure standpoint, and it's very frightening from my perspective. So kudos to them for doing it. I think it takes some chutzpah. But it'll be bad news for them if things don't go the way they want.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. So let's do kind of a throwback drop here. There was a fun article this week on our friends at "Hagerty" about eight '80s classics that you could buy for $5,000 or less. And, you know what? I'm literally always looking for an '80s or '90s classic for $5,000 or less. I think that's just really a sweet spot of the market right now.
And I think this is-- it's honestly, like, I feel, like, if you don't buy one right now, you might regret it. Because in 10, 15 years, the attainable ones are going to be gone, and the other ones are going to be expensive. And I think we're going to see a lot of anything that wasn't a '70s, like, true muscle or maybe something that had cachet, were probably going to skip over a lot of that outside of maybe the trucks and SUVs.
I think a lot of these '80s cars are going to be something special. And for me, like, looking at this list, it's the XJ, the Cherokee. That would be one I would be thrilled to buy and drive as a daily driver around town, especially in the winter and the summer and all year round. It's, you know, there's still 40-year-old SUV still pretty capable. You know, that thing will get you through the snow. So that's always one that has definitely captured my attention.
It was actually one thing on their list and certainly any car that you think fits in this price range is applicable, but I thought the Reatta the Buick, which was the cousin of the Fiero, right? I mean, that's a random one on there. Yeah. So I don't know what strikes your fancy. Let me fact-check my Reatta. No, let me check here. No, it was not a Fiero. I'm mistaking my GM coupes. Yeah, different bloodlines. Did it have an Iron Duke though, is that what I'm thinking? Yeah,
BYRON HURD: I mean, everything had an Iron back then.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true. That's true.
BYRON HURD: I mean, even Jeep the CJs, I think, even had Iron Dukes--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true.
BYRON HURD: --for a little while in that window. Oh, man, looking through this list, I mean, the XJ is the standout for me too. That one's pretty obvious. I have a soft spot for the Fiero. And that's just like-- well, I have perhaps an amplified soft spot for it right now just because the car that I wish was still on this list was the original Toyota MR2 which has now become a bit too expensive, I think, to still be on here, which is a shame.
But like, you know, those '80s mid-engine coupes are wild and fun. And they note on here that like even the early RX-7s are starting to get expensive, which is kind of concerning to me because that's another one that's on my list of, like, things I would like to own for just a little bit. Maybe even a carburated rotary just for that experience. But, you know, I'd probably last one Michigan driving season enjoying a carburated rotary, but I would like to be able to say I did it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no to be clear, you can call the Miata a cousin as in a distant cousin but different engine layouts. This is more related to the Riviera or the Toronado, that type of thing. But yeah, no, this is cool list lots of stuff from that era that is, you know, definitely fun. I would throw on there, if you can find one and it's really tough to find one that's even remotely good shape, would be an 85 Cutlass Supreme.
The ones for $5,000 are pretty rough. Let's put it that way. You're talking a lot of miles. You can find a really good one. Here's one from Auto Trader Classics for $25,000, which blows my mind to get a 40-year-old Cutlass for that much money, but it's a really nice condition. But no, if I could find one for $5,000, that would be on the list that one. Put the XJ in there.
Lots of cool stuff. I think it's definitely the time to buy low while they still are.
BYRON HURD: Man, I just, you know, spitballing on a couple of these things looking up like Mitsubishi Starions and Chrysler Conquests and stuff like that. And all of them are just expensive now. It's so disheartening. All these little toys that I would have loved to just, you know, bum around in for a while are no longer attainable. It's too bad.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. And to be clear, the Cherokee itself is getting pretty expensive. So, you know, you got to take some miles. "Hagerty" notes you're not just going to go find a mint condition one with all the good stuff from back in the day on it for that price. In fact, you probably won't. yeah.
BYRON HURD: Yes, unfortunately.
GREG MIGLIORE: Speaking of prices, we've got Land Cruiser prices speaking of a retro throwback name. We've got a kind of a good theme going through here, throwbacks SUVs, the '80s.
[LAUGHTER]
There we go.
I think to kind of make this quick here, it's the Land Cruiser is way cheaper than it used to be, but it's an entirely different vehicle. So if you've been looking to get into one and you don't want to spend $80,000 or $90,000, now you can do it.
But it's a much more basic interior. It's smaller. There's a different purpose. And, you know, frankly the used car market is there for you if you want the large three-row luxury SUV, which that's another one I would definitely-- you know, if I could get like a six, seven-year-old Land Cruiser, you could drive that thing. That might outlive you.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: But, I think, that, obviously, the pricing I think is fair. It's about what we thought it would be. MSRP is $55,900 but then you get $57,000 with the destination. I think it's going to be a fairly decent value. I think you're going to-- this is another example of where, I think, sometimes people are hesitant to buy something right like the first year it launches. That's just like a historical automotive superstition. But, at the same time, this thing is going to be over 60 before you know it. So also something to consider.
I think they gave themselves a lot of daylight to have the price go up here. Yeah. I think it's pretty cool looking. And, of course, you can pick the different headlights. Do you want the more, you know, do you want the flat ones, or those kind of like circular ones? So kind of cool.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. And also, I mean, don't forget you also have the Lexus options in this segment. If you want something-- you got the GX. You have the LX. So if you need something on one of those platforms that's a little more elevated, you have those options out there too. And the nice thing about this is with the lower price here, hopefully, it'll keep the previous generation Land Cruiser used values from getting too out of control because a higher MSRP on the new model helps inflate used prices with the lower MSRP here. Maybe that'll help just a little bit in the kind of more mainstream market. Can't hurt.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's a good point. Our West Coast editor James Riswick who also does features and all things up and down the West Coast drove the GX. He liked it very much. One thing that he noted and I agree with him is just how close the GX is stylistically to the Land Cruiser. I was a little surprised about that.
And also I was surprised. But for me if I were picking which one to actually put in my driveway, slightly leaning Lexus at this point. Like maybe 55-45. Like I'd be thrilled with either one of them. I think they both look pretty good. Maybe going with either the retro or even more retro headlights on the Land Cruiser might kind of tilt the pendulum back. But right now I'm kind of liking the Lexus just from a design standpoint. It seems to all-- I don't know-- it just seems to of go together in a little unexpected way. So we'll see.
All right. Speaking of prices, the Ford Mach-E it's a bit cheaper. It's a good time to buy a Mach-E or a Lightning. Actually, the base rear wheel drive one now starts at under $40,000. That's a $3,100 price cut. It's very popular. It sells very well. But Ford also has sort of-- they've had issues moving the metal as the way that they thought they would.
And, I think, as a result, you're seeing it's kind of a weird time to buy an EV. Things that were $4,000 to $5,000 to $10,000 more a year ago are cheaper. We had the whole chips, you know, fiasco and now that's sort of sorted out. You had inflation with prices. Inflation is back down to like somewhat reasonable levels and the economy is pretty good.
So you look at these indicators, and it's, like, well, that all goes into the soup. You stir it up and what does that mean for car prices? And for traditional vehicles, not much it seems like. It's just they're going up because that's what car prices do. Car prices never go down. But for EVs, you are seeing that kind of course correction. And I think that's kind of a broader strategy.
Jim Farley has said recently like, yeah-- what did he say? We have some regrets about just different things that have happened in the last year. And some of it has been their EV selling. Mary Barra has said that she thinks they should have executed better last year on their EVs, and this year is going to be the year. All of that, I think, is manifesting itself in things like this like your Mach-E could be $3,100 cheaper.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, and we're seeing it. Like, it's happening kind of everywhere-- anywhere you've got high dollar or consumer items. I mean, the smartphones and tech, like, you know, PC components, video cards, GPUs are starting to course correct on pricing. Even Nvidia which can kind afford to do whatever it wants is now actually kind of backing down on some of their MSRPs.
So you're seeing it everywhere, and it's something that you had three years of cheap money and people being willing to throw it at anything that would entertain them. And people just are done doing that, and the market has to correct to that reality. And it's slowly happening. I mean, it's really not surprising to anybody that we were not able to sustain what was happening over the past several years.
And while it's been very good for the companies that were in a position to take advantage of it, there are obviously downsides. You look at Ford's quality control issues and, you know, the various other things we've seen in terms of deliveries and launches.
And GM certainly not immune with Ultium or with their gas vehicles as we just saw this week with yeah, the Canyon and the Colorado getting a stop sale for software issues. But still, I mean, software whether it's an ice vehicle or an EV.
So if it cripples your ability to get down the road, then that's a deal breaker. So, you know, everybody's still dealing with the many after effects of that. And one of them is going to be accepting the fact that customers aren't willing to pay inflated prices anymore. So, you know, like you said, the price has never come down, but they do have to go up more slowly than they have been for everybody to get a chance to catch up.
GREG MIGLIORE: Something important to note about the Mach-E and the Lightning, which also is part of this, is the Mach-E is ineligible for the $7,500 price credit which you can get on your taxes. So they basically had to lower the prices, or they were raising their prices, you know, by doing nothing. So there's always that challenge.
In some ways though, I'll say this, I like this a little bit better because I mean, do your taxes. It can usually be a tricky scenario. And there's certain things that go along with how you achieve that full $7,500 tax credit. As far as this, it's just it's a cheaper car which frankly, I kind of like that on the front end. You don't have to worry deal with the IRS like seven or eight months after you buy the car.
And some of these prices are pretty attractive. A low-low price of a California route one, all wheel drive $4,900 we'll call it. That's $8,100 cheaper than it was. That's not nothing. That's even cheaper than the tax credit we would have given you.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So yeah, it's definitely an interesting time. TVs are cheap. Phones are expensive. EVs are kind of expensive. Other cars are cheaper. Then you get the used car market that's been kind of crazy since like 2018, 2019. So it's always a tough time to buy a car. I know many people who could buy another car, and they just don't want to deal with it right now.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So all right, so let's talk about the small Chevy truck Maverick Fighter. This is a little bit of a scoop we saw over on "Autoweek" written by one Todd Lassa, who I've worked with a couple of different places actually. And, I think, it's an interesting expansion of Chevy's truck strategy. Our story is up as well, so we do you give "Autoweek" some credit.
And I think this is kind of a good move for General Motors. I think it just it'll give-- like this is an extension of the strategy that again we referenced earlier in the show where Mary Barra said, hey, we need to execute, and we also need to, you know, the pivoting the hybrids back to hybrids. So I mean, I think, this is a good move. I've been rolling on this stuff before. What do you think?
BYRON HURD: I think it's the right move. And I mean, we've seen this push toward smaller pickup trucks. All right. I mean, Ford's already there. And Stellantis has been threatening to bring some of its smaller Ram options over. And so seeing something from GM makes complete sense. And yeah, I mean, you know, we've been talking about-- at least around here around the office the virtual office the notion of plug-in pickups a lot lately.
And with Ramcharger launching later this year, that's kind of the ultimate in plug-in pickups where it's a full EV and a full ice truck essentially kind of smashed together in an awkward way. So like there's obviously movement in this segment right now. And just seeing the notion that someone's actually entertaining more mass market smaller and hybridized trucks, it's great news for everybody because we need them, and they're better for us and better for the roads. Cost us less money in the long run. So I'm here for it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Now, they did make a hybrid large trucks back in the day. I drove one. It was-- I think, I drove the Silverado version of it. I'm looking back here. I found a new for 2012 really going deep into the press archives here. I think they always struggled, and I'm sure they probably want now to quantify the efficiency gains.
Back then it literally wasn't a significant jump forward. And then in real world driving you were like, what do we do in here? So I think that will be a thing they'll obviously want to take credit for. You know, that's like that's life, right? You know, it's what you can prove. It's what you can sort of show the receipts, if you will. So I think that'll make these trucks probably pretty popular with, you know, part of their truck buying audience who maybe the full Silverado EV is not what they want, but they're open to some hybrid tech. And I think that could work.
So do you remember all those light hybrids from like probably 10, 15 years ago? Then Chrysler had a few of them. I remember, speaking of Autoweek, I was at Autoweek, and we had like all of them in the fleet in a week. And I remember we called it like pointless hybrid week where you were just driving these huge dinosaur trucks and SUVs that got like half a mile per gallon better.
So they've been trying. The industry's always trying, always innovating. But it's sometimes it's tricky to see what consumers want and, you know, what might actually work. I mean, you had a pretty strong take in your Ramcharger column on this very theory.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. And just thinking about the older mild hybrids and the few SUV hybrids we did see there briefly. I'm thinking back to my most memorable Uber ride in Cleveland. I lived there for about 2 and 1/2 years going to one press trip or another to or from Hopkins Airport was riding in a Chrysler Aspen Uber.
And the driver was telling me-- and it was the hybrid. And I was stunned by what I had found. You know, like you don't expect to be picked up by that. And was talking to me, he said, yeah, whenever an Aspen of any kind comes up for sale locally, he buys it and stashes it away because they're his favorite car hire cars. Like he does this professionally. He's like the Uber was kind of his side gig. He's a professional like, you know full-time driver.
And so it's just like looking at like, why the Aspen you said? Because nobody expects it, and they're always surprised. And I was like, OK, hey, you know, surprise and delight. So, you know, if carrying people around making their day is your thing, sure it makes a ton of sense. So Chrysler Aspens of all things.
GREG MIGLIORE: I was at the reveal for that at the Detroit Auto Show. Again, probably what is this? '24. We'll call it, I don't know, at least 16 years ago or so. And they like literally made it snow inside Cobo. I was a young pup. Let's put it that way. The Chrysler Aspen is not like some mid-career vehicle. It was the very edges of my memory, but honestly, it seemed like it should have done better than it did. I think it's just the timing was a little-- it was too early for the soon to arrive SUV craze and too late for like, you know, when the Explorer sort of ruled the world. It was like right when like it wasn't the right thing to be doing to be building large SUVs, hybrid or otherwise.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, that was the era that killed the Kia Borrego body on frame. So, you know, like the V8 powered Kia borrego if I'm not mistaken. Like think about V8 powered Kia's, name them. There's one.
GREG MIGLIORE: There we go.
BYRON HURD: That's it. And we got it for, I think, it was three model years or something like that before they just killed it entirely.
GREG MIGLIORE: You could win a lot of bar bets with some of the stuff we're throwing down in this podcast. All right. All right, let's talk cars. Let's move on over to what we've been driving. This is one of my, I think, final voyages of our long termer the Sienna it's going away. We're getting a plug-in hybrid CX90 from Mazda in just a few weeks in time for March Madness for the basketball tournament.
And the Sienna was good. I took it up North to Traverse City took the family. It's a great road trip vehicle. I mean, just the cargo hold is huge. You put the third row down. Second row people were there. First row people were there. But just the back it's so easy. And it's like, you know, sort of the trying to like Tetris stuff into any large vehicle, it's always tricky.
With this, it's like there's no guesswork. There is tons of room for error. You could just throw stuff in because it's just flat. It's like a cargo van in that sense. Plenty of room back there. It's now a plug-in hybrid just as a refresher there. Fairly fuel efficient. I was getting around 30-ish on the highway. Not great, not terrible. So, you know, there's that it.
It's a very comfortable thing to drive for long periods too. That's something like the seats are comfy. You're low to the ground. But it's still sort of like it gives you that good driver's feel, if you will. You know, it's steering is very light. It's like the opposite of driving our long-term WRX, which is a lot of work to drive. This is like no work to drive. So there's that.
You know, it's held up pretty well. We've had it for coming up on it's going to be like-- it looks like 14 months-ish, so not too-- you know, we sort of extended it a couple months as we sometimes do for long termers. Yeah, for my second leg-- I was looking for this-- 25.6 miles per gallon. So not so good. I think it's possible that-- I mean, I guess it could be maybe I did my math wrong, but I don't think so. It's Google Sheets. So not quite as good.
And it did seem like it was kind of drinking gas. Like I noticed that. Like, anecdotally, it went from like full to 3/4 really quick. Like, you see the range goes from like 435 to like 330 or something like just quick. Quicker than you 100 miles in real life would go by. So just something I noticed there. But again, comfortable vehicle. Very large.
It's got captain's chairs in the middle row, which is, I think, a great way to spec out a minivan because then your kids and your dogs can roam wherever they need to go. Center console is amazing. You know it's got the-- you can open it up, and then it's very deep. It's almost like a foot and a half deep. And then you've got-- you can close it up, and I use it as like basically a tray for eating. So it's very good at that.
There's a center pass through between the driver and the passenger. It's wide enough that my son kicked a soccer ball through there. So you can put stuff down there like bags, almost carry-on bags like small ones. So plenty of room there. And yeah, I mean, I still don't really like the navigation system. I feel like it-- you know, I think people a number of us have discussed that. That Toyota's NAV isn't the greatest.
I don't really like the infotainment system either. There's nothing terrible, but I don't really like it. I think Stellantis's and even Ford's is better. I think there's stuff about this that could get a little-- it's counterintuitive. But it's been a solid vehicle. Let's see. The all-time number here we're at over 13,000 miles on this beast. That's a pretty good long termer.
One of my earlier posts I wrote that it's potentially to go into the "Autoblog" Hall of Fame of long-term vehicles. I think it's up there. Might not be a first ballot, but, you know, it's got the career. The numbers are adding up. Let's put it that way. The Dan Marino maybe of vehicles. It's got some good numbers. It's been a while since you've been in the Sienna. Any somewhat closing final thoughts on this thing?
BYRON HURD: I'll just agree with you 100% the ride quality in that thing is just phenomenal. I mean, there are sections over here-- and I live in Wayne County-- where the roads haven't been touched in 25, 30 years and it shows. And you can drive the Sienna over them without being uncomfortable. And that is I mean, it doesn't sound like high praise but it is.
If you were there, you'd understand. It really takes a lot to upset that car. And I was actually-- I ended up in a social media disagreement with some, I don't know, random people from out there in the tubes who were saying that they did not like the wireless charging cradle in the Sienna because it just sits there on top of the dash. And they're like, it doesn't contain the phone. The phone just slides around. And I'm like, when does it slide around?
The car doesn't get upset enough for a phone to slide around. Like, I mean, you can Andretti an on-ramp and then drive it over a pothole, and the car never gets unsettled. So what is dislodging these smartphones? I don't know. I think they saw a photo of it on the internet and decided it couldn't possibly contain a phone based on the way they drive a car, and so therefore, it's bad.
But in the real world I'll tell you right now, like, never had an issue with it at all. Didn't even have an issue with it moving around enough to like not charge or anything like that. So just I was really blown away by the ride quality. And honestly, impressed enough by the acceleration. Like the fact that it is just a hybrid never really became much of an issue for me. It was like, you know, it's a minivan. Your expectations aren't crazy to begin with, so it met or exceeded all of mine, and I was very happy with it.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, I would agree with you 100% on that. My phone it worked. It charged even through the case, which that doesn't always work. There is kind of a little like lip or shelf to prevent it from you really flying across the dashboard. I mean, I would immediately push back on that like how are you driving in your minivan that your phone's flying that way? I suppose--
BYRON HURD: Especially because I mean, looking at how I drive a minivan, you know, the type of person who never has a child in a minivan to me, it's just a real big hatchback. So I want to try it out. And I'm just not seeing it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, interesting. I've broken my phone in a Polestar 2 where the center console has like this kind of like injection kind of thing that clip it closed. Totally smashed my phone. It looked like somebody shot my phone just from the--
BYRON HURD: Wow.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it was rough. So there's far more dangerous places for your phones and cars than the Sienna. Let's put it that way. I agree with you. All right, let's talk about what you've been driving. A couple of Cadillacs. You drove the CT4-V Blackwing which we talked about last week with John Snyder. I think you have of a cool perspective because you own the exact almost same car except for a few of the badges.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. Literally, so I went down the sheet spec for spec, but they built it identically. It has the PDR. Has the interior seat upgrade. They chose the colors differently. It's a red car. They got the red calipers, which cost a couple hundred dollars. I have an orange car, and they did an offer orange calipers, so I just went with the standard gray. But that's really the only difference.
And since 2022, which is my model year, they added the Blackwing badge on top of the-- or literally beneath the V badge but in addition to. So the 2024 like side by side, the color difference and the calipers and then the presence of the badge literally the only changes. And it worked out to-- I want to say it was about $2,600 more expensive for the same spec if you discount the brake calipers.
So like you're looking at just essentially inflation at work because it's otherwise an identical car. And I was pleased to see that it did have all the features that were frequently being deleted in some of the cars, especially for 2023. Things like heated steering wheel and heated seats were offered on constraint. And a lot of buyers either opted out of them or just didn't go for those packages entirely.
And GM was offering compensation packages and things like that for people who were willing to forego the option, so their cars could be built. And it seems like that has largely passed. But yeah, it was down to the heated wheel and heated seats and everything that was used to in my car it was a perfect one for one match pretty much.
So that car is still very good. It's a shame that it hasn't been updated the way the CT5-V has for the coming model year and it probably a sign that the CT4-V is not long for this world. So if you're in the market and you'd like to join the few, the proud, the owners of CT4-V Blackwings, we'll welcome you into the club, but you might want to hurry.
GREG MIGLIORE: Semper Fi, my man. Tell me about this Escalade.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, that was quite a switch going from the nimble little modern Cadillac that zigs to an Escalade diesel which the second time I've driven one of GM's light duty diesels. And honestly, it's fine. I was not blown away by just the kind of general throttle response, which is kind of the thing to me anyway that a diesel should do best.
Like I kind of expect that like borderline EV shove, the nice just kind of easy roll on, roll off of the torque, but it was actually a bit peakier in this engine than I expected. I'm not going to say it had lag, but the throttle was a bit more of a rubber band than I was expecting from it. So even playing around with the drive modes a little bit, I never found one that really kind of felt natural. It always felt like I was hunting a little bit for torque and then trying to fall back because I'd found a little more than I was expecting.
So slightly peaky delivery, but I mean, still a wonderful, luxurious car. And I mean, it's a diesel. I was driving it in some of the coldest weather we've had recently. It was dipping down to the high teens, low 20s. And it was firing right up. You know, the glow plugs would come on for maybe 2 or 3 seconds and then boom, it was off.
So, you know, no complaints about the drive experience. It was a great airport ride, but I'm not sure that I would pick the diesel out of the options there. So yeah, kind of not what I expected.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I had a very similar experience with it. I actually took a Cadillac Escalade diesel to the airport. And this was not for this [? loan ?] but probably a year or two ago at this point. So same engine, slightly different Escalade. And I was a little disappointed in it as well. I just-- nothing wrong with it. I think Cadillac has some more interesting options, powertrain options available for you.
There is an Escalade IQ coming up if you want to go all electric. They haven't confirmed anything, but we're getting new plug-in hybrids and hybrids by the day. Perhaps there's going to be one of those. And, you know, I think there's definitely some theoretical benefits to having a large body-on-frame vehicle that's good on the highway, which diesel certainly does for the Escalade. But I can agree with you that the ethos of it is just a little bizarre too for the Escalade. Doesn't totally seem to fit.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. And I mean, the big healthy shove feels right. Like when you just get on it and go, you know, just foor to the floor and you're just letting it push you, it feels right. But it's just like the finicky throttle adjustments, just, you know-- granted it came with super cruise, and if you're going to just take long highway cruises All day long and let the truck drive itself, then you're not going to care about throttle response.
So a diesel is going to kill at that job all day. So you'll get great mileage, you'll cruise, truck will do the driving for you. Hey, that sounds like a win to me. But if you're actually going to be driving the thing around town and you don't mind taking the hit to fuel economy, I'd just say get the V8.
GREG MIGLIORE: I have driven this Diesel and, obviously, the Escalade. But also and I believe the suburban is the one I have driven it in. And it's a 3-liter inline six turbo diesel. Give you 460 pounds feet of torque, 277 horsepower. So it's a bit of a different vibe than say the gasoline V8. Just, you know, obviously, it's a diesel. It's torquier. But again, this seems like one that I'll be curious to see how long GM sticks with it, especially in the Escalade too.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, agreed. We're already seeing some automakers get a bit gun shy about renewing their diesels and their trucks because there's just not much point in trying to keep them around emissionswise. So as they're dying off in trucks, their longevity in the SUVs is really kind of comes into question quick because you lose all that scale and what are you going to do?
GREG MIGLIORE: What are you going to do? All right, I think we've hit everything pretty hard. It is on the cusp of spring. Do you have any spring beer drink recommendations?
BYRON HURD: Oh, no. This is kind of my-- this is my down season for beer. Like Late summer through the cold months, I'm 100% on. This time of year I'm just meh. It's not my go to like incidently.
GREG MIGLIORE: Good for you.
BYRON HURD: Can't explain it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Dry February, dry early March. That's not a bad thing.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And we just gotten back from vacation. That could probably dry out a little bit. Wouldn't be a bad move. I will offer up the Michigan Amber from Big Lake Brewing. That was a good one I tried. Never tried it before, but I like Amber ales, and it just happened to be on tap at the hotel. And, you know, February it's cold. I think Amber is good for any chilly month. And it's just a good beer. So I'm always on the lookout for a good one.
BYRON HURD: Big fan of Amber, so that's one I'll keep in mind.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, very tasty. All right, if you find the "Autoblog Podcast" tasty, please give us five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get the. Show if you'd like us to spend your money, that's podcast@autoblog.com. We'd love to hear from you. Please get in the mailbag as well. Thanks for listening this week. Shout out to our producer Eric Meyer who makes us sound good. Be safe out there. And we'll see you next week.
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