If nothing else, Hyundai wants to make it as easy as pie for you to check out its upcoming hydrogen-powered 2015 Tucson Fuel Cell vehicle. Given that the Korean automaker will be the first to offer a mass-produced fuel cell vehicle in the US (sorry, Honda, the FCX Clarity just doesn't cut it for this category) and that the hydrogen-powered Tuscon is coming next spring, there's no time like the present to lower hurdles.

Here's how Hyundai is trying to remove your worries. First, if you want to have an extended test drive, you can go rent a fuel cell Tuscon at participating Enterprise locations, starting next spring. Nothing was said about buying one of these SUVs outright, but after putting $2,999 down, you will be able to lease the H2 Tuscon for $499 a month for 36 months, and that includes "unlimited free hydrogen refueling" and a hydrogen version of the "At Your Service Valet Maintenance." Since there are only ten public hydrogen refueling stations in the US, and nine of them are in California, it makes sense that the Tuscon will be available only in the Golden State, specifically at just four dealerships. Hyundai said in a statement that, "Availability of the Tucson Fuel Cell will expand to other regions of the country consistent with the accelerating deployment of hydrogen refueling stations." In other words, don't hold your breath.

Speaking at the unveiling, Hyundai Motor America CEO John Krafcik praised the hydrogen work that Honda and Toyota are doing here at the show and said, "We think fuel cell technology will increase the adoption rate of zero-emission vehicles, and we'll all share the environmental benefits." In the Tuscon, that means an estimated 300-mile range and a refill time of under 10 minutes along with the instant torque of an electric motor. We'll be most interested to see how that plays out in the marketplace. Feel free to read more in the press release below.
Show full PR text
HYUNDAI OFFERS TUCSON FUEL CELL HYDROGEN-POWERED ELECTRIC VEHICLE TO RETAIL CUSTOMERS IN SPRING 2014

$499 per month to Drive the World's First Mass-Produced Fuel Cell Vehicle, Including Unlimited Free Hydrogen Refueling and At Your Service Valet Maintenance

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 20, 2013 – Hyundai today announced plans to offer its next-generation Tucson Fuel Cell vehicle for the U.S. market for just $499 per month, including unlimited free hydrogen refueling and At Your Service Valet Maintenance at no extra cost. For the first time, retail consumers will be able to put a mass-produced, federally certified hydrogen fuel cell vehicle in their driveways, with availability beginning in Spring 2014 at several Southern California Hyundai dealers.

"Hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric vehicles represent the next generation of zero-emission vehicle technology, so we're thrilled to be a leader in offering the mass-produced, federally certified Tucson Fuel Cell to retail customers," said John Krafcik, president and chief executive officer, Hyundai Motor America. "The superior range and fast-fill refueling speed of our Tucson Fuel Cell vehicle contrast with the lower range and slow-charge characteristics of competing battery electric vehicles. We think fuel cell technology will increase the adoption rate of zero-emission vehicles, and we'll all share the environmental benefits."

FUEL CELL PRICING AND BENEFITS
The Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell will initially be offered to customers in the Los Angeles/Orange County region for $499 per month for a 36-month term, with $2,999 down. This includes the addition of a remarkable new addition to the Hyundai Assurance program –unlimited free hydrogen refueling. "When we spoke to customers interesting in driving a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, many wondered what the cost of hydrogen would be," said John Krafcik. "To ease those concerns as we build-out the hydrogen refueling network, we thought covering this cost for these early adopters in the monthly payment was the best approach, and consistent with other aspects of our Hyundai Assurance program. It's our way of saying: 'This is another thing you don't have to worry about, we've got your back.'"

In addition, Tucson Fuel Cell owners will enjoy all the same services of the Hyundai Equus "At Your Service" valet program. As Equus owners have enjoyed since its introduction in 2010, should a Tucson Fuel Cell require any service, a Hyundai dealer will pick up the vehicle and provide a loaner, then return their car after service to their home or business, at no charge.

Customers interested in the Tucson Fuel Cell can indicate their interest (the first step in the ordering process) beginning today by visiting Hyundai.com.

The first four Hyundai dealers to offer the Tucson Fuel Cell to Southern California customers are Hardin Hyundai in Anaheim, Win Hyundai in Carson, Keyes Hyundai in Van Nuys and Tustin Hyundai, with additional Hyundai dealers to follow. Availability of the Tucson Fuel Cell will expand to other regions of the country consistent with the accelerating deployment of hydrogen refueling stations.

THE NEXT-GENERATION ELECTRIC VEHICLE
To achieve societal goals of significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, more and more consumers will need to drive zero-emissions vehicles. Currently, there's an ongoing debate about the future of the electric vehicle, with two schools of thought:

Store more electricity on-board using more/larger batteries
Create electricity on-board with hydrogen-powered fuel cell technology

Developed over 100 years ago, the battery electric vehicle has made progress in recent years, with improved affordability and energy storage capability. But for most consumers, range anxiety and lengthy recharging time remain formidable obstacles to using them in their daily lives. In addition, affordable electric vehicle technology is best suited to smaller urban vehicles, not larger family and utility vehicles that many families require to meet all of their needs. Because of the inherent weight and cost of batteries, and the chemistry and physics that drive slow recharge times, today's electric vehicles have practical limits for many consumers.

TUCSON FUEL CELL ADVANTAGES
Hyundai is introducing its Tucson Fuel Cell to alleviate the limitations of traditional battery electric vehicles. The Tucson Fuel Cell maintains the day-to-day flexibility of the gasoline-powered Tucson so that its driver is able to immediately enjoy the next generation of electric vehicles without range or recharge-time compromises to their lifestyle.

The Tucson Fuel Cell represents the next generation of electric vehicles – those that create their own electricity, on-board, from hydrogen. According to UCI's Advanced Power and Energy Program's 2013 study, the hydrogen fuel cell provides lower total well-to-wheel emissions than a battery electric vehicle. For the Tucson Fuel Cell driver, this social benefit is achieved with greater utility, versatility and without compromises. Consider:

Driving range up to 300 miles*
Capable of full refueling in under 10 minutes, similar to gasoline
Minimal reduction in daily utility compared with its gasoline counterpart
Instantaneous electric motor torque (221 lb-ft)
Minimal cold-weather effects compared with battery electric vehicles
Superb daily reliability and long-term durability
No moving parts within the power-generating fuel cell stack
More than two million durability test miles on Hyundai's fuel cell fleet since 2000
Extensive crash, fire and leak testing successfully completed
Quieter EV operation
Zero greenhouse-gas emissions, emits only water vapor

* Estimated driving range based on internal tests; EPA ratings to be determined by launch

The Tucson Fuel Cell begins mass production for the U.S. market in February 2014 at the Ulsan, Korea assembly plant that also manufactures the Tucson gasoline-powered CUV. Manufacturing the Tucson Fuel Cell at the same plant allows Hyundai to leverage both the high quality and cost-efficiency of its popular gasoline-powered Tucson platform.

HYDROGEN RENEWABLE ENERGY SOLUTIONS
The benefits of hydrogen are well known -- required supplies for the U.S. market can be produced domestically and its supply is virtually unlimited. It can be produced by varied means – including renewable sources such as biogas. In fact, Hyundai's Fuel Cell prototypes have relied on hydrogen generated at the Orange County Sanitation District near its Fountain Valley headquarters, where methane from sewage is turned into hydrogen. Hydrogen can even be sourced directly from water, using electrolysis to split hydrogen molecules with electricity from renewable sources such as wind and solar.

Further supporting hydrogen infrastructure development, California approved a plan in October 2013 to develop up to 100 hydrogen refueling stations in the state over the next several years. This recent California initiative dovetails with increased government support of hydrogen infrastructure development at the federal level, such as H2USA.

HYDROGEN: LOWEST WELL-TO-WHEEL EMISSIONS
According to 2013 studies on well-to-wheel greenhouse-gas emissions (GHG) by the Advanced Power and Energy Program at the University of California, Irvine, hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles have the lowest overall emission levels of all alternative fuel entries. Well-to-wheel emissions for hydrogen vehicles sourced from natural gas are lower than battery electric vehicles, and less than half of equivalent gasoline vehicle emissions. Even more impressive, hydrogen emissions sourced from biogas are a tiny fraction of equivalent gasoline vehicle emissions, yielding an extremely high factor of long-range emissions sustainability.

FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGY: HOW IT WORKS
Hyundai's fuel cell effectively replaces the battery pack used in an electric vehicle by generating electricity from hydrogen through an electrochemical process that does not involve hydrogen combustion, with no moving parts within the fuel cell stack.

The fuel cell electrochemical process is as follows:

Hydrogen enters the anode, air (oxygen) enters the cathode
Catalyst splits the hydrogen electrons and protons
Electrolyte conducts the positively-charged ions while blocking the electrons
Electrons are used to create an external circuit, generating electricity
Catalyst combines the hydrogen ions and electrons with oxygen to create water and heat energy
A single fuel cell produces approximately one volt; fuel cells are "stacked" to meet voltage requirements

ENTERPRISE RENT-A-CAR EVALUATION DRIVE AVAILABILITY
Hyundai is also partnering with Enterprise Rent-A-Car to make the Tucson Fuel Cell available to consumers at select locations in the Los Angeles/Orange County region. This partnership will enable interested consumers to evaluate the Tucson Fuel Cell for their lifestyles on a multi-day basis, with rental availability also planned for Spring 2014.

HYUNDAI MOTOR AMERICA
Hyundai Motor America, headquartered in Costa Mesa, Calif., is a subsidiary of Hyundai Motor Co. of Korea. Hyundai vehicles are distributed throughout the United States by Hyundai Motor America and are sold and serviced through more than 820 dealerships nationwide. All Hyundai vehicles sold in the U.S. are covered by the Hyundai Assurance program, which includes the 5-year/60,000-mile fully-transferable new vehicle limited warranty, Hyundai's 10-year/100,000-mile powertrain limited warranty and five years of complimentary Roadside Assistance. Hyundai Assurance includes Assurance Connected Care that provides owners of Hyundai models equipped with the Hyundai Blue Link telematics system with proactive safety and car care services complimentary for three years. These services include Automatic Collision Notification, Enhanced Roadside Assistance, Vehicle Diagnostic Alert, Monthly Vehicle Health Report and in-vehicle service scheduling.


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 143 Comments
      Jorge
      • 1 Year Ago
      Do you guys know you misspelled Tucson all over the article?
        Joeviocoe
        • 1 Year Ago
        @Jorge
        They don't care... as long as it's controversial,... spelling, grammar, and accuracy take a backseat.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Not really sure why the unveiling of a new vehicle would be "controversial". Unless some people are really biased against it, for some reason. Otherwise, it's just a piece of machinery that might hold some technical interest for doing something differently.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          @Letstakeawalk It's "controversial" because you have advocates on both sides that have public disagreement about it (the definition of controversy). It inevitably happens in every hydrogen related article.
      knightrider_6
      • 1 Year Ago
      I'm putting it in same category as Tesla - an alternative energy vehicle that doesn't look dorky. I didn't imagine Hyundai will come out with this so soon.
      Joeviocoe
      • 1 Year Ago
      With lease only deals... Hyundai never actually loses inventory. They let customers pay them to 'rent' these cars... and get free testing data, free advertising, and free claim that, "FCVs are finally here". Well.... this is, yet again, another chapter in The Great Fuel Cell BackPedal of 2015. Hyundai wants to prove that their FCVs are ready for market. And, yes, the vehicles are ready. But there is NO MARKET without H2 Infrastructure. So, Hyundai will "Lease" rather than "Sell"... to hedge their bet of "a sufficiently dense Infrastructure" which was demanded in the 2009 Letter to the Energy companies. As 2014 approaches, Hyundai is NOT seeing the Infrastructure they need to successfully launch FCVs. They can build FCVs, but would lose a LOT of money if they sold them to people. So, they will keep the vehicles on their books as Leased vehicles.... which can be reported differently in their finances and be written off as R&D. Smart move from Hyundai. But this is NOT the news Hydrogen Advocates were hoping for.
        Joeviocoe
        • 1 Year Ago
        @Joeviocoe
        To summarize: As I have said here for years, back when I first started arguing against the Hydrogen propaganda, concerning the 2015 promises... Lease-only deals "do not count".
      DaveMart
      • 1 Year Ago
      ' According to 2013 studies on well-to-wheel greenhouse-gas emissions (GHG) by the Advanced Power and Energy Program at the University of California, Irvine, hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles have the lowest overall emission levels of all alternative fuel entries. Well-to-wheel emissions for hydrogen vehicles sourced from natural gas are lower than battery electric vehicles (based on the average carbon footprint of the entire US grid), and less than half of equivalent gasoline vehicle emissions. Hydrogen emissions sourced from biogas are a tiny fraction of equivalent gasoline vehicle emissions. (Hyundai’s Fuel Cell prototypes have relied on hydrogen generated at the Orange County Sanitation District near its Fountain Valley headquarters, where methane from sewage is turned into hydrogen.) ' http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/11/20131121-fcvs.html
        DaveMart
        • 1 Year Ago
        @DaveMart
        Some people really can't stand the facts, and like to mark reality down, as it does not conform to their prejudices.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          Robby... You've stumped DaveMart because you actually exist in reality. DaveMart has his head buried in the rhetoric and fantasy realm of "The World of Tomorrow". For more than a decade now, Hydrogen powered cars have been touted as the future... and Solar energy has also been downplayed. All this knowledge backed by studies, research papers, and well funded lobbying efforts to play out this narrative. So when you actually have a story to tell about how a REAL person, with REAL Solar Panels, and REAL Electric Vehicles.... he cannot believe it. He only seems to care about what is "promised to be right around the corner". And he will continue this obsession with the Hydrogen fantasy long after 2015... when PHEVs have taken up most of the market share that FCVs were hoping to get, and BEVs have come down in price. There are so many variables to the Hydrogen economy that hinges on untested assumptions. The actual retail costs of a FCV (not some Lease-Only deal), the actual cost of Hydrogen per KG that will be sold to consumers, the actual cost to build a fully capable and commercial H2 station (not demonstrations), and the True market demand for vehicles that will cost a premium which will limit drivers to a near non-existent infrastructure. There may be thousands of papers, studies, and reports that say optimistic things.... but none are tested in the real world. So when you talk about a real world experience, about Home Solar which he denies, his mind must implode.
          Robby
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          I am totally for new innovations and Hydrogen seems like a good way to go for the future, but some of your comments are just your own opinions. "Solar currently produces less than 1% of US electricity, and those who claim they are running their EV cars on it unless they are night workers are to put it politely, stretching the truth, or to put it bluntly, lying." They are not lying because I happen to be one that have solar panel installed on my roof where they produce more power than all my electricity needs annually including my two EVs. My best friend also runs his EV off his panels where they make more electricity than consumed so zero emission produced. If you take the time to do some research on EV forums like myself you will see there are plenty of EV owners with solar panels on their house (and a growing trend). So your choice of word "lying" doesn't apply. Sure, solar accounts for less than 1% of total electricity produced, but they are definitely not lying about their electricity usage produced by solar. "They run their EVs off the grid like everyone else, regardless of what their solar installations may supply to the grid in return, and they can be useful in areas with a heavy daytime and summer peak in electricity use, but the converse applies where there is a heavy winter and night time peak." It doesn't matter if EVs still use the grid to charge because at the end of the day they bring back the energy to the grid (sometimes even more than what they consume) from the solar panels so it still equals to zero emissions like I mentioned in the earlier paragraph. As for what you said about heavy winter and night time peak, we are all going to assume these Hydrogen powered vehicles are going to be first introduced in the sunny state California so to have a fair comparison we don't get the heavy winter like you mentioned, which in reality is more like what you said "they can be useful in areas with a heavy daytime and summer peak in electricity use". I would be more open minded about these new innovations, whether they are hydrogen or EVs, instead of attacking one or another because each has its shortcomings (as well as advantages :)
          JB
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          It looks like BEVs, PHEVs, EREV are all better GHG/mile than FCEV here: http://hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/13005_well_to_wheels_ghg_oil_ldvs.pdf
      JakeY
      • 1 Year Ago
      This is lining up to be the same "lease only" strategy as the Clarity. That's still far from a "production vehicle" in my book and certainly doesn't quality as a "first" over the Clarity. There is some new data: "Driving range up to 300 miles*...Estimated driving range based on internal tests; EPA ratings to be determined by launch". Given the 5.64kg tank, that works out to 53mpg which is a far cry from the 70mpg that Dave was saying a while back. And that's even before EPA testing (which tends to be lower, not higher than manufacturer estimates). This is going to change the efficiency calculations drastically.
        Dave
        • 1 Year Ago
        @JakeY
        "a far cry from the 70mpg that Dave was saying..." A RAV4 EV does not get the same fuel efficiency as a Leaf. And a Tucson FCEV will not have the same fuel efficiency as a FCV-R (or whatever Toyota ends up calling their hydrogen sedan). Toyota has stated that their FCEV will give you "at least 300 miles between fill-ups" on a smaller tank than the Tucson.
          Dave
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          "I'm referring to all the claims..." Actually, you specifically said "....70mpg that Dave was saying..." That is not referring to "ALL the claims." - That is specifically misquoting me.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          @Letstakeawalk I may have got the wrong Dave (it's actually DaveMart, so apologize to Dave), but I'm sure I have right car. I can't find the particular comment (really hard to search ABG content), but DaveMart sourced the 70mpg number for this SUV from here (he's a regular commenter at greencarcongress too if you see the comments): http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/02/tucsonix-20110214.html And on the topic FCHV-adv, if it ever gets EPA tested (I'm guessing it won't) I'm willing to bet it won't get 68mpge. Even the FCV-R (or whatever the production version will get called) might not get that much.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          Well, you shouldn't blame anyone for using the numbers provided by the manufacturer when we don't have any other numbers to go from. The discrepancy might certainly come from the different testing regimes, so it is quite fair to assume that EPA numbers might be lower than those quoted by Hyundai. Even Tesla was way off, overstating their figures for the Model S.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          I'm referring to all the claims about how it gets 70mpg despite being an SUV and also refuting my calculations when I use the Clarity's 60mpge or the B-Cell's 52 mpge as a comparison. I know the other cars can and probably will get higher (like the Clarity does). "Toyota has stated that their FCEV will give you "at least 300 miles between fill-ups" on a smaller tank than the Tucson." That doesn't mean much without specifying the cycle used for testing and esp. if it's not US market specific. Hyundai previously claimed 400+ miles with this vehicle (which probably is achievable, just not on the EPA cycle).
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          ... because those were the numbers provided by Hyundai. Once we see EPA figures for a specific vehicle, then we can use those, OK?
          Dave
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          BTW - The FCX Clarity, which I believe to be larger than the FCV-R and which uses older technology, is rated at 60 miles per kg.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          @Letstakeawalk The problem is we DO have other EPA numbers: the 60mpge for the Clarity and 52mpge for the F-Cell. I used those to compare to EVs, but I was "corrected" with the 70mpge number for the Tucson.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          Yes, I agree that if numbers are to be compared, they should be from a similar testing format. You must agree, that even at 58mpkg, the Hyundai Tucson FCV is nearly 2x as efficient as its gasoline version. Buyers won't just be comparing FCVs against BEVs; as long as an FCV can show a competitive advantage to a similar ICE, then there will be a place in the market for it. A good competitor would be the Toyota RAV4 EV, with an EPA rated 78mpge. Once we have the EPA number for the Hyundai, how close will they be?
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Dave
          @Letstakeawalk Sure, no one is questioning that hydrogen, from a tank to wheel perspective, is more efficient than the ICE (otherwise they would not make any sense considering the projected costs of the fuel and once you factor in reforming losses when compared to non-hybrid NGVs). But I'm talking mainly about the comparisons with EVs (which gets into the merits of which path to choose). As for comparison to RAV4 EV and ICE versions, the Tucson is actually closer in performance to the UK 1.7L diesel (0-60 in 12.5 seconds), while the RAV4 EV is closer to the V6 (0-60 7 secs vs 9 secs for the 2014 2.5L I4 and 6.5-7secs for 2013 3.5L V6). Of course the US Tuscon only gets the 2.0L gasoline engine (as base) so it's harder to compare given there's no market with both engines.
        2 wheeled menace
        • 1 Year Ago
        @JakeY
        Advocates overstating things? nah, we've never seen that before. *cough*2008's EV rush all over again, but worse*cough*
          2 wheeled menace
          • 1 Year Ago
          @2 wheeled menace
          No, way before Tesla. 2007-2009's gas price spike era EV speculation.. cmon... you guys don't remember all the over the top promises and dorky EVs from back then? I still have a bunch of EV magazines which are both laughable and sad to read today.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @2 wheeled menace
          lozenge?
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @2 wheeled menace
          Tesla?
      noevfud
      • 1 Year Ago
      Please fill up at my non-existent free fuel cell station. Enjoy the feeing of being green while we compress your hydrogen with electricity that could power an EV. Enjoy the long drive home from this remote station that you sat at forever because of the long wait due to limited fuel cycles. You are so green and free now.
        John Bailo
        • 1 Year Ago
        @noevfud
        You realize that they can put a fuel pump at each and every Hyundai dealership? Instant highway...plus their customers would be coming there every week...guaranteed next sale and go-to place for service. It's brilliant!!!
          2 wheeled menace
          • 1 Year Ago
          @John Bailo
          Okay; where is the Hyundai dealership going to get their hydrogen from anyhow? Which big supplier? What about the liabilities involved in having a large stock of compressed explosive materials at the dealership? remember the time that they yanked a hydrogen station out because the risk was too high in California?
          noevfud
          • 1 Year Ago
          @John Bailo
          Do you know how much energy your "fuel pump" requires to compress hydrogen for a fuel cell vehicle? This wasted energy does not even account for how or where this hydrogen is produced.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @John Bailo
          Sure, if they are willing to do that, then great. The problem is they won't be. Dealers are having a hard time installing quick chargers (which cost about $50k). You can forget about a $2 million+ hydrogen fueling station.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @John Bailo
          "remember the time that they yanked a hydrogen station out because the risk was too high in California?" Citation? Because CA certainly doesn't seem to be afraid of hydrogen stations - on the contrary they're a major proponent of them. "Last week, California regulators approved a bill that will fund more fleet purchases of zero-emissions vehicles while setting up a network of hydrogen refueling stations throughout the most populous US state. Assembly Bill 8, which is expected to be signed by Governor Jerry Brown, will provide more than $2 billion of funds for clean-vehicle incentives. The bill will also set aside about $20 million a year specifically for hydrogen station deployment through the end of 2023, with a goal of at least 100 publicly accessible stations installed during the next few years, according to Green Car Reports." http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/19/california-puts-legislative-muscle-behind-hydrogen-fueling-stati/
        Porsche4life
        • 1 Year Ago
        @noevfud
        Wow
      dell_skinner
      • 1 Year Ago
      So what happens when the cars are involved in a big accident and the fuel cell splits ? does this mean a big Mushroom cloud and death within 1 mile radius? what have they done to reassure me its safe ?
        cpmanx
        • 1 Year Ago
        @dell_skinner
        It is largely a non-issue, but of course manufacturers are addressing safety concerns. There will be plenty of govt regs as well. Some background on hydrogen safety: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/dangerous-hydrogen-fuel2.htm One interesting fact: How many people died on the Hindenberg due to burning hydrogen? Answer: 1.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Year Ago
        @dell_skinner
        This info from Hyundai addresses much of the testing regimen: http://www.fch-ju.eu/sites/default/files/documents/ga2010/sae-hoon_kim.pdf
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Year Ago
        @dell_skinner
        I just found this site, most everyone should find it interesting. It's a database of all hydrogen-related incidents, used to promote an understanding of how things failed, and how those failures might be prevented in the future. http://h2incidents.org/ Relevant to the question of the possibility of explosion, here's a photo of a fully-loaded hydrogen tanker that was involved in a highway accident. It burned for 10 hours, but no explosion. http://h2incidents.org/docs/265_1.pdf Here's another tube trailer that was involved in a fiery accident. No explosion, no injuries. http://h2incidents.org/docs/225_1.jpg
          EVSUPERHERO
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          Here you go LTAW. Hydrogen and fracking go hand in hand for that matter so does fracking and oil now days. http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/30/how-safe-is-hydrogen-filling-station-explodes-w-video/
        Dave
        • 1 Year Ago
        @dell_skinner
        "what have they done to reassure me its safe ?" Nothing. They prefer that you remain ignorant fearful of new things and stay indoors where you belong.
      Chris M
      • 1 Year Ago
      "free unlimited hydrogen fueling"? Many of the previous test programs also included free fuel, which makes it sound like this is just another test lease, similar to the Honda FCX Clarity leases. Apparently they figured the fuel cost into the lease, and figured, correctly, that nobody would be taking long trips in these cars due to a lack of refueling facilities. Might be a great deal for a taxi service - but I suspect the lease terms preclude commercial usage like taxis, and most leases put a limit on annual mileage with an additional charge if that mileage is exceeded at the end of the lease. Like the previous test leases, expect this to be available only in the LA area where there are H2 fueling stations.
        goodoldgorr
        • 1 Year Ago
        @Chris M
        This thing cost way less then a tesla.
          Nick Kordich
          • 1 Year Ago
          @goodoldgorr
          This thing costs $200/month more (less electricity) than a Tesla-powered RAV4 EV: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/27/toyota-rav4-ev-lease-gets-cut-in-half-to-299-month/
          krona2k
          • 1 Year Ago
          @goodoldgorr
          And the performance will be way way worse than the Tesla, and there's nowhere to refuel, but apart from that it's brilliant.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @goodoldgorr
          And $230/month more than a Chevy Volt... which can refuel anywhere. I know, the Tuscon is an SUV... but still.
      paulwesterberg
      • 1 Year Ago
      The "free hydrogen" is a marketing ploy to offset the hassle of having to drive to the dealer to refill it.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Year Ago
        @paulwesterberg
        Its free because at the moment it is illegal to sell hydrogen as an automobile fuel.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          They've been "planning" for a very long time. Maybe 'lack of standards and regulations' would have been a fair excuse before... but now, we've got real world examples how individual automakers and industry will "make it happen", regardless of the bureaucracy. We've got lots of biodiesel station in places, in spite of a similar condition of not being allowed to be sold as automotive fuel. We've got Superchargers, in spite of there being no standards that specify exactly what is to be done.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          "We've got Superchargers, in spite of there being no standards that specify exactly what is to be done." You think Tesla installed those without getting permits? LOL. Electrical codes and standards are *very* well defined. The only minor one that Tesla bumped up against was it not being legal to sell electricity, which they got around by making it free (rather, included with the purchase of the car) - just like Hyundai is doing. You really seem to be failing to grasp the magnitude of what the collaborators working towards hydrogen vehicles are actually doing. You give them no credit for how much they have accomplished in the past decade. It's tremendous, really, and now they're coming into the final stretch. I can't guarantee that it will be successful, but a major reason I'm so interested in HFCVs is precisely because of the difficulty and complexity of what they're trying to accomplish. Joeviocoe seems to think that simply waving money at Congress (to get them to wave money back, ironically) will make everything happen overnight.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          "It's not like "everything is banned unless it is specifically permitted and regulated first". Not everything, but for sure the sale of hydrogen as an automotive fuel. There are a number of different agencies that regulate the sale of automotive fuels, and until they say it can be sold, it can't be sold. Likewise, it's not just zoning, but building and safety codes that have to be written an implemented before a commercial hydrogen refueling station can ever even break ground. All current refueling stations in the US are operated as demonstration/prototype stations with special exemptions from the government. There's a whole section on the DoE hydrogen site (I know how much some people hate to read the official government reports, but...): "Codes and standards have repeatedly been identified as a major institutional barrier to deploying hydrogen technologies. To enable the commercialization of hydrogen in consumer products, new model building codes and equipment and other technical standards will need to be developed and recognized by federal, state, and local governments. DOE is working to identify those codes and standards, to facilitate the development of such standards, and to support publicly available research and certification investigations that are necessary to develop a basis for such codes and standards." http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/codes_standards.html If you doubt me, call up your local permitting office and ask them what you have to do to sell hydrogen as an automotive fuel. Ask them about a government-approved dispensing device, and what % purity the government requires, and what the building codes are in your area. Then, ask them what the tax rate your should charge. Read these: http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/annual_progress12_safety.html
          Chris M
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          You still persisting in that "they can't sell it until they finalize the regulations" bit? Just one problem with that argument - there is no laws prohibiting the sale of H2 fuels. It's not like "everything is banned unless it is specifically permitted and regulated first". Now, there are zoning laws regulating where automotive fuels can be sold, but that's hardly a prohibition on hydrogen, and it merely means that H2 could legally be sold wherever gasoline or diesel fuel is sold. Now, if legislators decided to put special regulations and restrictions on H2 fueling stations, they could, - but they haven't yet, and until there is some disaster motivating them to do so, they won't. Besides, we've already had reports of people buying H2 fuel for their vehicles, even mentioning the price - that's how we came to know the pricing was in the $8 to $13 per Kg. range. paulwesterberg was right - it IS a marketing ploy, designed to hide the true cost of the H2 fuel.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          "But it goes to show that if someone was serious about the business plan, they would make it happen." What you call "stalling", other people call "planning". Steps *are* being taken, the codes and regulations are being drafted. The hydrogen providers, the automakers, and the governments are all working together to establish these sorts of codes according to a schedule that culminates with a 2015 goal. It's funny, you're complaining that the introduction of FCVs isn't happening quickly enough. The 2013 Progress Report should be out within a few months to bring us all up to date... "FY 2013 Plans The Safety, Codes and Standards sub-program will continue to work with codes and standards organizations to identify and address needs for the development of new hydrogen-specific codes and standards. To address these needs, the sub-program will continue to support its rigorous technical R&D program—including assessment of materials compatibility for component designs and high-pressure tank cycle testing—and continue to promote a quantitative risk assessment approach to ensure the development of technically sound codes and standards. The sub-program will also continue to promote the domestic and international harmonization of RCS by working with the appropriate domestic and international organizations such as the National Fire Protection Agency, International Code Council, SAE International, CSA Standards, and the International Standards Organization. The sub-program will continue to participate in International Partnership for Hydrogen and Fuel Cells in the Economy’s Regulations, Codes and Standards Working Group and the IEA’s Hydrogen Implementing Agreement, both of which are engaged in hydrogen safety work. " http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress12/viii_0_ruiz_2012.pdf
      TIMMAH!
      • 1 Year Ago
      Wow talk about range anxiety. How far are these 10 hydrogen stations spaced apart?
        DaveMart
        • 1 Year Ago
        @TIMMAH!
        About as far as petrol stations were when combustion engine cars were first produced. That is why they did not catch on.
          DaveMart
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          Since you are under the impression that fuel cells burn hydrogen, your comprehension of many things seems to be seriously limited.
          PeterScott
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          It is disingenuous, to try and equate the starting conditions, of Hydrogen today, with the starting conditions for petrol powered cars. Petrol powered cars didn't face an entrenched motor vehicle that already had a complete infrastructure covering the nation.
          rubley00
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          I read the comment as an honest question, whatever motivation you derived resides in your own skull
          Ele Truk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @DaveMart
          Since this is about a vehicle that specifically uses a Hydrogen fuel cell, and does not have an onboard reformer, it's a perfectly valid question.
        cpmanx
        • 1 Year Ago
        @TIMMAH!
        The California stations are pretty much clustered around LA and San Francisco, as you'd expect. Map is here: http://cafcp.org/stationmap And it's a totally sensible question. Anyone who isn't prepared to answer it is not serious about understanding this issue.
          Chris M
          • 1 Year Ago
          @cpmanx
          Meanwhile, there are 37 Tesla Superchargers spread across the nation, in a much better distribution for long distance travel. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
      Hudson
      • 1 Year Ago
      I want to travel to Tucson and go back with this car, can I? I want to buy the car, can I? I want to believe in Hydrogen promises, can I? Still hearing same response to all questions
        Dave
        • 1 Year Ago
        @Hudson
        Do you actually want to do those things? Or do you just want to complain, pat yourself on the back and act smug? Be glad that carmakers actually wait until technology is ready these days.
      FRD
      • 1 Year Ago
      If every dealer had a hydrogen refueling station, that could get the market started for hydrogen cell vehicles going. Then maybe regular service stations would add/invest in hydrogen as well.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Year Ago
        @FRD
        Fair enough, FRD's comment is indeed a good one. Hyundai dealers could potentially install hydrogen refueling systems. The demonstration station at EcoFul town in Tokyo utilizes just the sort of compact, portable station (designed by Linde) that could be installed very quickly at minimal cost, connecting into the natural gas line. "The Toyota Ecoful Town※2 Hydrogen Station was constructed by HySUT members Iwatani Corporation and Toyo Gas Co., Ltd. utilizing the combined achievements in technological development and operating knowledge amassed the companies have developed to date. By adopting a package-type hydrogen station from German firm Linde incorporating one of the nation’s largest direct filling method※3 high-flow compressors, the station achieves improved convenience, takes up less space and reduces costs, and will conduct a comprehensive demonstration aimed at the future development of commercial hydrogen stations through the filling of fuel cell vehicles (“FCVs,” hereafter) and fuel cell buses (“FC buses,” hereafter). At the station, Iwatani is responsible for the main package installation, which incorporates key equipment such as high-flow compressors and cooling units, as well as high-pressure gas equipment such as accumulators for storing high-pressure hydrogen gas, safety facilities, filling control and so on." http://www.iwatani.co.jp/eng/newsrelease/detail.php?idx=49 This would answer several of the comments Joeviocoe so thoughtfully edited together. The hydrogen could be produced on site, and as I've often pointed out, there are still regulatory hurdles (building codes, safety standards) that still have to be addressed, so it's not an immediate solution. Still, once those standards are in place, these micro-stations could happen very quickly due to their portable and modular nature.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          This is still in a concept phase. Not tested in the real world to reveal the actual costs yet. But interesting, and worth pursuing nonetheless. We've been speculating for a while about different H2 station types, and their costs. I think we should be talking about a common metric to use to compare costs. Something like: How much will an H2 station cost, installed ($), with respect to daily capacity (kg/day). Annual O&M costs are important too.
          JakeY
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          @Letstakeawalk "The demonstration station at EcoFul town in Tokyo utilizes just the sort of compact, portable station (designed by Linde) that could be installed very quickly at minimal cost" I'm not sure $4 million (with hope of getting it down to $2 million) is "minimal cost". As I said, the average cost to install a quick charger is $50k and it takes Nissan giving the charger away for free to get dealers to install them. Something that costs millions is a whole other ball game.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          "This is still in a concept phase. Not tested in the real world to reveal the actual costs yet. " No, it's not a concept. The station exists, and is currently being tested, at Ecoful Town. That's the whole point .
        Joeviocoe
        • 1 Year Ago
        @FRD
        John Bailo You realize that they can put a fuel pump at each and every Hyundai dealership? Instant highway...plus their customers would be coming there every week...guaranteed next sale and go-to place for service. It's brilliant!!! 22 hours ago 7 replies to John Bailo's comment noevfud Do you know how much energy your "fuel pump" requires to compress hydrogen for a fuel cell vehicle? This wasted energy does not even account for how or where this hydrogen is produced. 21 hours ago +2 2 wheeled menace Okay; where is the Hyundai dealership going to get their hydrogen from anyhow? Which big supplier? What about the liabilities involved in having a large stock of compressed explosive materials at the dealership? remember the time that they yanked a hydrogen station out because the risk was too high in California? 21 hours ago +2 JakeY Sure, if they are willing to do that, then great. The problem is they won't be. Dealers are having a hard time installing quick chargers (which cost about $50k). You can forget about a $2 million+ hydrogen fueling station. 19 hours ago +1 Joeviocoe Selling Hydrogen to the public will need to be zoned as such. Just as gasoline stations. So no... you cannot simple install H2 pumps for the public at every dealership. Also, most dealerships would need to approve of having this station built, independently... since they are not corporate owned. And they will need to set aside a large plot of land for the tanks, compressors, etc. .. as well as allowing tanker trucks to access to the facility at regular intervals. This is not a good idea for many dealership lots.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          I think you've gone a little off... too many FCV articles in such a short time?
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Year Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          No, FRD asked a serious, and common question. It has a serious answer down below, buried under 100+ comments. I am simply copying and pasting to the top, a conversation from several people.
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