In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd. Before they get to the juicy news of the week, they chat about the cars they've been driving, including a Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R, Audi A6 Allroad, Mazda CX-9 and Kia Niro. It's been a busy week in the news department, with GM investing in Nikola, Lucid Motors launching the Air electric sedan, Maserati unveiling the MC20 mid-engined supercar and a farewell to the Lexus GS. Then they talk about having a newfound respect for the Fox Body Mustang and the Mazda CX-9.
TranscriptERIC MAIER: Hey, everybody. This is "Autoblog Podcast" producer Eric here. I'm just hopping in quickly at the beginning of the episode to let you know that this episode of the "Autoblog Podcast" is brought to you by the "SoFi Daily Podcast." Reaching financial independence starts with having the right information. So every weekday morning, "SiFi" keeps you up to date with important business news and stock-market happenings and how they affect your financial life. So get your money right and search for "SoFi"-- that's S-O-F-I-- wherever you get your podcasts. On with the show.
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GREG MIGLIORE: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today on the phones is Associate Editor Byron Hurd. What's going on, man?
BYRON HURD: Hey, I'm doing all right. How about yourself?
GREG MIGLIORE: Doing great. Doing great. We got a great show for you guys today. We're going to run through a lot of different things, some things Byron's been driving. And he's been driving quite a few things, including the Audi Allroad, the Mazda CX-9, and my personal favorite here, the Shelby Mustang GT350R. I kind of buried the lead there. We'll probably talk about that one first, actually. I've been driving the Kia Niro, so we'll mention that. It's not nearly as exciting as really anything Byron drove, but so it goes.
He also has the driving the Lexus GS. This is probably for the final time. But we're going to actually include that in the news segment, where we're also going to talk about General Motors and its deal to make the Badger with Nikola. Kind of interesting. Speaking of EVs, we'll talk Lucid. Maserati revealed earlier this week. And then the Lexus GS is, again, toast. We'll get Byron's sort of final take on that.
And then one thing I threw on here-- this is a random segment. We've been doing all sorts of random segments. We'll see if we have time for it. But we're going to call it Things I Have a New Respect For. Byron didn't even put anything on there, so that means you get to just do it freestyle. Throw--
BYRON HURD: All right.
GREG MIGLIORE: --something on there, and whatever comes to mind. And away we go. But let's jump right in. Tell me about this Mustang you were driving.
BYRON HURD: So yeah, GT350R, which-- it turns out this might actually be kind of a send-off for that, too, because Ford hasn't actually confirmed whether we're going to get the GT350 going forward, now that we're getting the Mach 1 revival. So that's based on the 5-liter and not the wonderful 5.2. I mean, that engine just makes the car. It really defines it. I mean, the R is the track car. It's the sticky tires and the just unbelievable road-holding. But without the engine, it's just-- it's not the same.
It's such a strange Mustang to drive, because even the 5-liter revs quite a bit. But going from a 5-liter to this engine, you will just naturally short-shift it all the time, because it won't occur to you just how much of the rev range is left. I mean, that thing screams. And it just goes forever. You will-- I guarantee you, if you get into one of these, and you're just puttering around from stoplight to stoplight, you will be shifting out of first gear thousands of revs before you should be, because there's just so much sealing in that engine. It's wonderful.
It's-- I mean, it's my dream Mustang. I love the GT500s. I always have. I have a soft spot for the 2012, 2013-- whenever it was-- when they did the send-off edition for Carroll Shelby where it was, you know, 200 mile an hour and all that good stuff. Those are wonderful cars. They're incredibly powerful. They make great noises.
But it's really hard to compare to the GT350. It's just such a wonderful experience for every one of your senses. And it's also just really fast and capable, too. I mean, there's not an on-ramp alive that that thing can't do at double whatever the posted limit is. It's just insane.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm impressed, too, just the fact that I've always felt-- let me put it this way. I've always felt that the 350 is enough, like, Shelby Mustang for me. Don't get me wrong. I love the 500. I've driven a couple different versions of them just over the course of, like, you know, its existence. I don't know.
For me, the 350 was just-- it was, like, the right balance of power and then other adjustments, if you will-- enhancements, refinements-- for the Mustang. I always felt like the 500 was almost just like, we're take-- everything we do for the 350, and then add, like, 100 more horsepower, at least, that the car doesn't really need, you know?
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So when I think of a Mustang, I think more of a thing that, it has some agility. It's also kind of raw, although they've been fine-tuning it a bit in its more recent generations-- the last couple, especially. But all that horsepower is more like, to me, like straight-line speed. And when I think of Mustangs, I don't necessarily think of that, except for, like, maybe the Cobra Jet, you know, like, drag racing pack or something. But--
BYRON HURD: Yeah, for sure.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I mean, for me, that 5.2-liter flat-plane crank is just-- that engine just got me so excited when they, like, rolled that out. So you know, I hope this isn't the end of the line for the 350, in my opinion. I think it has a certain amount of cachet that I would hate to see the Mustang lineup lose. That being said, the Mustang lineup's getting pretty big right now, you know?
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You mentioned all the other ones in there. If you want to throw the Mach-E in there, technically--
BYRON HURD: Yep.
GREG MIGLIORE: --Mach 1-- I mean, go up and down the lineup. The 500, which-- if you're listening to this, we're going to have a nice feature video on that coming up probably next week. So if you're listening to this over the weekend, be sure to come back for that. But there's a lot of Mustangs out there right now. Do you think there's too many?
BYRON HURD: There might be just in this very moment. With the Mach 1-- I don't even-- I'm not even sure those are on dealer lots yet. I think they're coming. And then, of course, I mean, if this is the swan song for the G350, then if they don't overlap, then that solves a little bit of that.
But yeah, I mean, between the EcoBoost High Performance, the GT Performance Package 1 and 2, the GT350, the Mach 1, GT500, and then, of course, all the random tuner ones like that Roush Edition that I drove a few weeks back, like, there's-- there's a Mustang for every human being out there, at this point.
And honestly, I mean, as much as I love the GT350R as a concept-- like, the idea of having the rear seat delete and the Sport Cup 2 tires, which are absolutely insane-- it's really way too much car for the street. The regular GT350 is the sweet spot if you're actually going to drive it. If it's going to be a track car, go for R. There's just-- there's no question. But for everyday driving, a regular GT350 is amazing, because you get the engine. You get the MagneRide suspension. You get all the things that actually make the GT350 special.
The R is just-- you know, it's the 911 GT3 RS versus just a 911 GT3. It's that kind of situation. And for a car that you want to live with, you actually want to put some miles on, the GT350 is really the sweet spot. It's actually-- I mean, it's a heck of a lot more affordable, too, because you're paying $10,000 for the tires, and the rear seat delete, and all that kind of stuff. So I mean, with my money, the regular GT350 is the one to get.
And that actually makes the Mach 1 a really enticing proposition, 'cause even though it won't have the 5.2-- it'll just have the regular 5-liter-- that's still a great engine. And sure, so you're going to be down 85 horsepower or whatever it is. I don't recall off the top of my head. You're still getting a heck of a lot of car. Granted, a loaded-up Performance Package 2 or Mach 1 is still a fairly expensive mustang. So there's some give and take there. But yeah, there are a lot of them.
And I mean, honestly, I'm kind of surprised there are that many variants considering it's not selling incredibly well. I mean, the Challenger seems to be the only one that's kind of immune to fluctuations in customer habits. The Camaro and the Mustang are not so fortunate. But I mean, I'm just thankful they exist, because there are so many great enthusiast options out there, and especially for American buyers. That hasn't always been the case.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well said. Tell me about the Allroad. Which one was-- were you driving?
BYRON HURD: So this was a-- it was a fairly loaded one. They didn't actually give me a window sticker. But it's the A6 Allroad, and it had the twin-turbo, 6-cylinder engine. I want to say-- I don't have the numbers off the top of my head. Its, like, 365 horsepower-- somewhere in that ballpark. I mean, it's a nice, big, comfortable wagon. It's not-- I wouldn't say it's particularly fun to drive. It's powerful and punchy. It'll do 0 to 60 in 5.1 or something like that. Like, you know, getting off the line, it's plenty of vehicle.
But it's definitely a big, rugged, kind of "one size fits all" family hauler of a luxury car. It's not, you know, a hunkered-down sport wagon. The-- even in the firmest and lowest setting, that suspension is not particularly firm. It's just-- you know, it takes the kind of-- the softer edges off of it a little bit, but it doesn't harden it all that much. It's pleasant. It's a great cruiser. But honestly, I was driving that back-to-back with the Mazda, and I actually enjoyed driving the Mazda on the freeway more than I enjoyed driving the Audi, which--
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting.
BYRON HURD: --might ruffle some feathers. But you know, with a gun to my head telling me which one I'd rather put, you know, a 1,000-mile road trip behing me, and I'm picking the Mazda, believe it or not.
GREG MIGLIORE: What'd you do with the Mazda? I'm curious.
BYRON HURD: I used it to finally unload the last of the items I had in my storage unit. So I actually did the same thing with the Audi. So I had them at the same time. And I had them over a weekend. I took one on Saturday, one on Sunday, and just emptied that unit out. The Allroad swallowed three sets of wheels, one of them without tires, the other two with tires. And the CX-9 did a whole interior from a Ford Fiesta ST, and then another set of wheels.
So both of them were-- you know, when they're in cargo mode with the second row folded down and, you know, all my furniture-- blankets everywhere to protect all the interior pieces-- they fit plenty of stuff. The CX-9 actually-- it's known as, like, one of the less capable three-row crossovers. It doesn't have a ton of cargo room, by default, at least compared to the other kind of mainstream competition. But once you drop both rows of seats in the back, there's plenty of room back there for just about anything you'd want to throw in.
And it held more stuff than the Allroad did, which kind of surprised me, even though they're both technically midsizers. The Allroad, with the big 6-cylinder engine, unfortunately, is actually heavier. And I think that contributed to it being not quite as engaging to drive, even though, dimension-wise, they're about the same size.
The CX-9's a little taller and a little wider, believe it or not-- on the wider thing, not the taller thing. Obviously, you'd expect a crossover to be taller than a wagon. But yeah, I mean, it's more spacious. It's lighter. It's more athletic. It just lacks the power that the Audi has.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the Allroad definitely has sort of the style. But then if you want a little bit more of the capability and the substance, you would go for a larger crossover like the Mazda you mentioned. I think--
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: --Allroads are fun to drive. Don't get me wrong. We had an A6 Allroad, I want to say, a little while ago. It was part of, like-- it was, like, a short long-termer. We had it for, like, six months or something. And people loved it. It was beautiful. Got a lot of miles. But the trick was, you couldn't really do as much as you wanted with it, if that makes sense. Like, when you were going to go up north or something, or go, like, away for the weekend, I mean, you would fill that thing, like, to the gills. And then--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --it was like, two people-- OK, you're probably fine. Add a dog in, add a kid in-- like, you know, you can do it. You can do anything if you really want to when it comes to, like, car travel with, like, vacations. But it's like, how can you do it easily? And wasn't the best thing, for sure.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. I mean, it's a very versatile car, especially since you do have the dynamic ride height and all that kind of stuff. You can actually take it off road. I'd be more comfortable taking that on, like, a dirt track or something like that than I would the Mazda. I mean, I have-- I've actually off-roaded in a CX-5 before. And that did better than I expected it to, especially with the really front-- or, really low front overhang on it. So the CX-9's probably similar in that regard.
But I mean, if you, you know, actually told me, like, hey, this is kind of a rough trail back to the cabin or whatever, yeah, give me the Allroad for that, because you get the ground clearance. You get the air suspension. That's-- I mean, those are game-changing when it comes to that kind of thing.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let's talk about the Kia Niro, which is what I drove. And you know, it was OK. It was fine. It's-- I would say it's very understated, if you will. Like, nobody would look at that and think, oh, wow. That's this hybrid that you could get, like, 50 miles to the gallon with, you know? It just looked like a Kia crossover-- in a nice way. It looked good. You know, it was handsome. Nothing wrong with it-- anything like that. But it did not really stand out.
And I sort of feel like-- I don't know. I like it if you buy a hybrid and you want to maybe make a statement, you know? Maybe that's a little over the top. But I mean-- and there's nothing wrong with being understated or being modest-- that sort of thing. But I still feel like the market, like, just saturation is not there as far as buying either hybrids or electrics-- that I think a lot of buyers might want people to know, hey, I bought a hybrid. There's not-- there is nothing about this car that makes you even-- not screams, whispers "hybrid," you know? It's just-- it's there.
But it was-- it's very fuel-efficient. I actually did a lot of highway driving with this one, which is not really the thing you want to do with a hybrid, as far as, like, really fuel-sipping. But it was good. I think, different spurts, I was seeing, like, well over 40. I saw 41, 42. Excuse me. Actually, it's rated more like 52 in the city. And then on the highway, it's 49 for a nice 50-- a neat 50 combined.
So yeah, it's efficient. Anecdotally, it was getting around that. Mine actually cost about $34,000. And Kias are great at giving you, like, almost everything. You know, for $34,000, a Kia is, like, an S class, almost, as far as features, you know? They really-- it's a great value. You pay a reasonable price, and you get a lot. I'm not sure this car felt like a $34,000 car, so there's that.
They call it a crossover, and they say it's got-- let's see if I can find it-- 54.5 cubic feet of cargo room, just going by the website. I put a lot of stuff in there. I put a cooler in there. We did a picnic. Went across town, hung out with my brother's family, and did a picnic. Took some toys and, like, a ball for the kid.
So like, it did, like, literally everything that you would say, oh, hey, what are you going to do with your Kia hybrid crossover? Well, that's what I did. But I just still find it a little boring. Granted, in the last few weeks, I've had a McLaren, a GLC AMG 43. I've got an Alpina in the driveway right now. I will admit-- and I purposely tried to frame my reference here-- that this is what it is and not to be, like, you know, projecting anything onto it--
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: --which-- this is a job. You gotta put this up against, you know, its competitors, in which case, it's very competitive. But I mean, it definitely was the car I woke up and was like, boom. Got to go drive the Niro. So there's that.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I haven't driven the Niro. I-- it's just a weird blind spot in my driving experience. But I think just-- I mean, looking at it, I think I'd rather have one of those in my driveway than a Sportage, just based on the looks.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
BYRON HURD: And the Sportage--
GREG MIGLIORE: Fair enough.
BYRON HURD: --is pretty old, at this point, too. Like, it's-- I think it's due for a replacement, like, this year. I'm kind of pulling that out of thin air, but it feels right. I mean, all of those Hyundai and Kia crossovers, it feels like, are in some stage of replacement, at this point. We're getting a new Tucson. We just got a new Santa Fe. And the Santa Fe and the Sportage should, theoretically, be the same platform and everything. So I would think Sportage has got to be right around the corner.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think Kia does a good job of making design statements, generally. So I mean, I think maybe they can lightly spice up their crossover lineup with this next batch of refreshes. And I think that could help. Even the Soul, I think, got a little maybe duller this time around, probably by design, because remember when it first launched back in, like, '08? It was basically, like, competing with the Honda Element, the Nissan Cube. It was a different marketplace. Now--
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: --it's really, I think, matured into this, like, crossover that's more conventional. But it's gotten duller. So I don't know. That's our little tangent on Kia crossovers. Any other thoughts on all those way more interesting things that you've driven?
BYRON HURD: No, I think that's probably it for those. I'll have the first drive for the Allroad up here pretty soon. And I'll have the road test for the GT350R following not too long after that. So we'll have those here in the next couple of weeks for you guys.
GREG MIGLIORE: So if you're following along with Autoblog, I'm actually looking at our features calendar. You-- we got some cool stuff. That driveway test coming up-- coming up soon. Speaking of decadent cars I've been driving, I drove the NSX a while ago, and I finally have gotten that over the goal line. That'll be coming up next week. XC90 buying guide. And if you want to know about that Volvo, be sure to check that out. So yeah, man. We know why you guys read Autoblog. It's for these car reviews. So we'll have plenty of them coming up.
Let's talk some news, though. It's been a pretty busy week, I think. The one that immediately, like, kind of just surprised me was General Motors buying-- investing in Nikola. It's a $2-billion stake. And they will build the Badger, which I think is a great name. I love that name. It's a--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --hydrogen electric pickup. I think that's going to be great, at least potentially, for General Motors and for Nikola. But we're not going to see it till the end of 2022. So this-- I don't know. I didn't see or hear much about this deal happening ahead of time. Maybe you did. But this seemed to be a little bit out of left field, as far as I could tell. And you know, at first, I was a little like, well, what is General Motors exactly getting out of this? But I mean, I think it could be a win-win. And I'm interested to hear what you think.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way. I mean, it just kind of managed to sneak up on me. And it seems like everybody is looking for their dance partners in this EV space right now. And so, you know, Ford and Rivian have their tie-up, which is on-- I'm not going to say shaky ground, but it's been influenced by coronavirus-related issues. It cost them their first Lincoln EV crossovers because they couldn't make it all work out. But they're saying, don't worry. That relationship's still intact, and more things are going to happen.
GREG MIGLIORE: What are they--
BYRON HURD: Yep.
GREG MIGLIORE: --going to say, right? You know?
BYRON HURD: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, oh, darn it. Guess we missed out on that one.
GREG MIGLIORE: Wow. That was strike three. Whoops.
BYRON HURD: Right? So-- and then-- so now we've got this with GM. And it kind of makes you wonder, like, where FCA slash Stellantis will land, who their buddy will be, because it seems like everybody's got one now-- at least one, if not more than one.
So it's going to be an interesting couple of years, I think, especially as all these startups try to find someone to either buy them out or invest in them to give them the money they need to scale up, which is the big challenge for all these things. I mean, it's-- you know, it's not like tech where you can say, oh, yeah. I want to make a phone. OK, fine. Scaling up for automotive production is a slightly different ballgame. So it's going to be interesting to see how it shakes out for everybody.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think what's interesting here-- a couple of kind of, like, footnotes. Steve Girsky, who is a former vice chairman of General Motors, is part of the Nikola Corp, if you will-- corporation. So that's just an interesting, like, side note. Like, you-- starting to see whose rolodex, like, you're getting all the right phone numbers were in here. Nikola stock is worth more than General Motors stock, which, to me, is insane when you think--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --about just how EV stocks are worth-- they're like pure gold. They're platinum. Like, you could literally have no, like, way to support your business plan other than it's just, like, in a theoretical, academic sense. Like, I could come up with a business plan, put it in a spreadsheet, and say, this is what's going to happen. Will it? Probably not. That's not the way the world works. But I mean, investors love that. So I mean, I don't know. I'm almost a little flabbergasted by this optimism.
Tesla stock is through the stratosphere. I was a little surprised about Rivian, too. To me, that was one that it was like-- you know, they, again-- they had, like, this, like-- they didn't even have the business model, whereas I feel like at least the Badger and Nikola-- there is a little bit of, like, steak to go with the sizzle, if you will.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Rivian-- it seemed like their, like, founder and CEO, RJ Scaringe, was doing a bunch of-- maybe I mispronounced that-- Scaringe-- was doing a bunch of, like, interviews. And it just seemed like they were, like, almost picked off 'cause they were, like, the name, and then Amazon was investing in them. And it was just kind of like--
You know, John Snyder, who's our Green editor, and I have been on the podcast multiple times being like, what was it about Rivian that, like, made everybody think they had the secret sauce for a minute, you know? So I don't know. But I mean, just-- it is a little mindblowing when you look at the stock prices for these. And then you look at, like, General Motors, which has actually been doing this stuff for 120 years. But their stock's $31. And then, like, a company that didn't exist five years ago was 46.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: But they know what they're selling. They know how to articulate that plan. So--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So it goes. And I think the Badger's cool, too, just as a side note.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And I-- you know, it's been kind of a week for EV things, too, because we had the-- this'll segue nicely into the Lucid conversation. But you know, we've got these companies that seem to be right on the cusp of launching, effectively-- like, hard launching-- actually producing a tangible product. And this is make-or-break for so many of them, too.
And I mean, you have to imagine that, without the investment from GM, Nikola would have nowhere to go. I mean, Lucid's in a great position because they've got experience with the tech. They've got-- it's-- their battery and charging technology has already been proven in Formula E. And that's a pretty good feather to have in your cap, you know?
So it's interesting to see them, like, just on the cusp of striking out and maybe actually having a legit production car to show us in the next couple months, and especially with so many of these other outlets still being vaporware. And even the ones we really like-- I mean, Rivian is a good example. Like, they're theoretically chugging along behind the scenes. But there just hasn't been much tangible to show for it lately.
And same is true of Bollinger. Like, they've got their prototypes. We haven't actually seen evidence of the next steps. They've got their new production facility and all that kind of stuff. Like, it seems like it's coming together, but they're still not at the actual production phase of anything yet. And that story just seems to repeat.
And it's the kind of thing that people saw in tech for-- it still happens in tech. Even, you know, big companies like Nvidia-- they launch a new graphics card. They launch it, and it's still a month and a half before you actually see the darn thing.
So you know, even the established guys tend to go in that direction. And it's not the most pleasant one. I don't think anybody likes to hear an announcement for a product that they can't buy. So it'll be interesting to see if there's a correction, in that regard, over the next few years as customers get sick of hearing about things that don't exist.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- you know, the more-- when I look at these different groups, Lucid, I think, has a lot of, you know, just-- it seems like they have a lot going on as far as, like-- you know, you mentioned Formula E. Like, I feel like there's enough there to say, oh, this is a credible company, whereas some of the other ones, I-- I don't know. I'm a little more skeptical about.
You know, Peter Rawlinson has got a lot of different, you know, experience in the car business. So when I look at them, if I were a car company, I'd say, well, hm. Maybe they're somebody we want to try and buy into and try to get some sort of, you know, competency from them. The downside is, is right now, they're doing sedans. They have hinted that--
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: --there's other things they're going to do. And right now, if you're like, well, hm. Nikola-- oh, they're doing a truck. Sweet. Let's go with them. Whereas Lucid is doing, you know, kind of like a Model 3, Model S fighter, you know, I don't know. If you're General Motors, maybe take your chances as far as, like, coming up with an electric sedan. But somebody's doing an EV truck. You might want to try and jump at that. I don't know. I mean, part of me--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --also is a little confused about why these legacy automakers do want to poach, like, if you will-- or pick off-- these, like, startups, because, like, then you're, like, almost competing with yourself. Like, you're--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --GM. Now you're selling-- what about a Chevy Colorado that could be hypothetically electric? That seems like a great idea to me-- or a hybrid Colorado. But then there's the Badger, you know? It seems like it's going to bite--
BYRON HURD: [INAUDIBLE]
GREG MIGLIORE: --into the Colorado. I mean, you got to say it, right? I mean, I don't know. The Badger also makes me think of Big Ten football. Wisconsin-- the Badgers.
BYRON HURD: Hm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Random thoughts that pop into my head there.
BYRON HURD: Aw, football.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's football. There will be-- so if you're listening to this, we're recording this on a Thursday. I believe the NFL is coming back tonight.
BYRON HURD: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: So there'll be stuff-- there's more stuff to watch on TV-- let's put it that way-- for you sports fans out there. But we should also talk about Maserati. They revealed their mid-engine supercar, really, I would say. I'm not going to say this is a sports car. It's the MC20. I think it's gorgeous. It's impressive. We've been hearing and seeing teasers, rumors about this for years.
This is essentially a reset for the Maserati brand. They're no longer that sort of in-between step between Alfa and Ferrari, which is-- if you think about it, there's a lot of room between Alfa and Ferrari in the FCA sort of empire. Ferrari has been spun off, although they're still somewhat in the orbit of FCA, or Stellantis. I don't know. What do you think of this thing? MC20, man.
BYRON HURD: I mean, it's a much more exciting 4C, in my mind. I mean, it's-- obviously, it's much larger. It's not really a competitor to the Alfa 4C. But it uses a lot of the same concepts, 'cause the 4C is like a baby supercar. It's like the Italian take on a Lotus Elise with a little more sex appeal, I think, will be the way to look at it. Like, the Elise is a very function-over-form, you know, simplifying lightness, all that good stuff. And the 4C makes that a little bit more refined but not that much more, which I think is actually why it didn't sell very well, unfortunately.
So this is obviously, like-- you know, this is cranking it up a significant amount. I mean, you're talking about 600-plus horsepower. The price tag's going to match. Like, it's a lot of car. I don't-- I mean, I don't get too excited about it, though. I mean, it's weird to see a launch like this that isn't electrified straight out of the gate. I mean, they're talking about electrification plans. It's coming and all that.
But everybody else's flagship super and hypercars are utilizing electrification to some degree. And even Lamborghinis are using supercapacitors and stuff like that to get a little boost here and there. Like, there's a little more high-techiness to some of the other reveals we've seen. And by those standards, this feels very FCA to me. Like, just like, you know, FCA doesn't have an electrification partner, and FCA supercars don't have electrification. So it's on brand, if nothing else, I suppose.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it looks like-- so one of our contributors, Ronan Glon, did a really nice series of stories on this and the Maserati compact crossover, which, believe it or not, is also a thing. What I think is interesting here is that I'm a little confused as to what market they're exactly going after, because again, it's like, this seems like an amazing reveal for 10 years ago. Like--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Now, they do say-- they do hint-- and Ronan reports this-- that electrification is-- like, this vehicle is capable of electrification, is what I'm trying to say. So like, maybe there is more to come. And truthfully, if you're in the market for something like this-- like, let's just say you're, like, I don't know, Justin Verlander or somebody-- like, a famous celebrity athlete-- who likes cars, by the way. That's why that name popped into my head-- yeah, you'd probably look--
BYRON HURD: Awesome.
GREG MIGLIORE: --at this car, and you'd probably say to yourself, well, I'm also going to get, I don't know, an NSX, which has, like, some sort of hybrid, you know, element to the powertrain. OK, I don't care that I'm going to burn a little more fuel with the Maser, you know? Like, I can see that. Like, I don't necessarily think somebody's going to go, like, whoa, this car is not, you know-- you know, it's blowing a hole in the ozone layer.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, right.
GREG MIGLIORE: But just from, like, a technical prowess perspective, it's a little odd not to have that-- not to at least be able to say it could go 10 miles on electric range, or you get that electrical boost. It just-- it seems kind of, like, odd not to do it, even if you do it in a nominal way. That being said, sometimes it's-- companies do it, and you're like, what was the point of that, you know? Like, you didn't get any real extra performance out of it that you could have gotten using, you know, traditional components.
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I mean, I don't know. Considering it's Maserati, I'm actually OK with that, simply because, I mean, it's an Italian car. Let's make it sound good, make it look good. I'm Italian. That's enough for me, you know?
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So--
BYRON HURD: No, I think that's a solid take. And there really are two sides to the electrification coin. You're right. And honestly, I mean, it's funny. Like, I look at this-- this is exactly what I expect from Maserati. And that's OK. But at the same time, there are no Maseratis that I genuinely get that excited about.
So I mean, they exist, and they're cool. But 9 times out of 10, I just want an Alfa for the same or less-- less money most of the time, you know? Like, I would rather be seen in the Alfa. I would rather drive the Alfa. The Maserati's cool for that, you know, tier-one kind of cachet. But I don't know. I don't get that fizz, you know? Like, I don't get excited when I look at one.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'll be intrigued to see what else is coming with Maserati. You know, we-- I mentioned that crossover, which-- check it out. It's on our site. Not much to say other than they're just trying to, you know, flesh out their lineup a little bit. I'm not necessarily sure Maserati even needs to do that, but so it goes. I drove the Levante a couple of years ago out at Pebble Beach-- the GTS and then the Trofeo version with the Ferrari engines in them. I mean, they're all Ferrari engines, basically. But I mean, that's a very nice crossover. It rides, drives--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --really well, looks the part. So I don't know. I mean, I guess-- I will say this. Like, the Giulia is a gorgeous car. You know, I think that's better-looking than anything-- like, the Ghibli, which, I guess, is probably the smallest Maserati sedan. So it's like, I would agree with you. If you're, like, cross-shopping Italian, like, you know, niche marks, you know, Alfa wins head-to-head on several critical areas.
Side note about Alfa. I don't know if you have driven a 4C recently. I have driven one, like, two or three times in my life, just 'cause they don't exactly come through the press fleet on a monthly basis.
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: We did one at our Tech of the Year testing back in, like, 2014. This was a while ago an Autoblog here. Drove one up north. It was cold. It was, like, late October. It was almost, like, snowing. And they were like, do you want to drive this home? 'Cause we had to drive the cars home. And I was like, yeah, I don't think I want to drive this thing home. It's, like, undrivable, you know? And I ended up taking-- I don't know, like a Volt or something. I also drove one through downtown Manhattan one time. That was wild.
BYRON HURD: At least it's the right size for Manhattan.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's the right size.
BYRON HURD: All right.
GREG MIGLIORE: The visibility's not great.
BYRON HURD: Although it's a little wide, I guess.
GREG MIGLIORE: You can't see--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --too well. I'll admit that was kind of scary. And it was during a video shoot where the-- like, the producers were directing me, like, into this, like, side area by the Manhattan Car Club. So literally, I was driving up a sidewalk, at one point, in the 4C. Oh my god. This is insane.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, it's--
GREG MIGLIORE: This was multiple years ago. Let's put it that way.
BYRON HURD: --certainly not a luxury car. Yeah, I believe it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Anyways, enough on that. That's Maserati. Speaking of luxury brands, you did drive the Lexus GS. But what we're going to talk about here in the--
BYRON HURD: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: --news section-- 'cause it is-- like, it is dead for 2021. This is your final take. You could have another take if you want, but I just-- what do you think? They're killing this car. Do you care?
BYRON HURD: I do, actually. I've got a soft spot for the GS. I've never driven a variant of the GS that I didn't enjoy. Granted, I haven't driven, I don't think, just, like, a plane base spec-- I guess the 350 is still the lowest level. I don't even recall off the top of my head. So the one I have is a 350 F Sport, so it's a sportier version of the base car. And I love the GS F. That's an amazing vehicle. Overpriced compared to the M5's and E 63's and such of the world. But still a great car, in its own right, 'cause that V8's wonderful.
And the hybrid versions of this car have always been relatively fun to drive, too. They're just-- you know, they're punchy. It's rear-wheel drive. It's, you know, an old-school take on luxury midsize sedan. And it just works. And especially since it's a Lexus, it literally just works. Like, you know, every day, you go in. You press the button. You drive away. You don't ever really have to think about these cars. And that makes them special in their own way, too.
So I think it's a shame this is going away, especially because what's likely going to replace it, functionally, is going to be an all-wheel drive version of the ES. And I think, as auto writers, we're kind of obligated to look down on the ES because it's, quote unquote, "just a Camry." But the new ES is actually a very nice car. And they have gone out of their way to improve the chassis. It is actually fine to drive-- I wouldn't say fun, but fine.
And if they decide to get kind of tricky with it, maybe do a hybrid with a little extra punch, 'cause they can-- you know, they don't have to worry about the transmission being able to handle the power if they stick it all on electric motors on the rear axle or something like that.
And they've been-- they finally confirmed, I think very recently, that the ES is going to get all-wheel drive. So that kind of brings that whole package together. That's how they effectively replace the GS in the Lexus lineup without actually replacing the GS, which appears to be a non-starter.
So yeah, I'll miss this one. It'll be a shame to see it go. At the same time, you kind of had the feeling, for the past few years, that Lexus was never very serious about keeping it around anyway. They saw the writing on the wall. They knew what they were doing. And while it was nice that we got the GS F while it was still around, you could tell they didn't really have any plans for it beyond that. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: I took the GS F to Taco Bell maybe a year or two ago. That was fun. It's my only take on this. I've actually oddly been to a number of-- I feel like Lexus GS events. Like, they did, like, a facelift--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --at the Chicago Auto Show. I think I had a cold. It was before coronavirus, so it probably wasn't coronavirus. Don't really have much more else to say about these cars other than the GS F was a heck of a car. Let's put it that way. I mean, really anything with that V8 in it was--
BYRON HURD: Oh, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, to me, sure. Whatever that goes in, I was probably going to like it. But I mean, from a business--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --standpoint, this-- I think this car's time has passed.
BYRON HURD: Yeah. I mean, it's a real shame that the IS F didn't see a second generation. The RC F is neat. But you have to want what's effectively a luxury pony car--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: --to drive that thing, 'cause that's what it is. And the IS F at least gave you four doors and, I mean, a nod toward comfort and convenience that you don't really get from the RC F. And the GS F was just like, oh, well, we can make an IS F but bigger, which has penalties and weight and all that kinds of thing. So you know, it-- I miss the IS F. That was my ideal formula. But if I had to pick a second place, it would be the GS.
GREG MIGLIORE: I agree with you that--
BYRON HURD: So--
GREG MIGLIORE: --IS F is probably number one, like, on the grid here as far as, like, making the Lexus sedans, like, hotter, if you will.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So yeah, I'd agree with that ranking. I don't know. I guess I'm-- for me, I'm just kind of more like, meh. Bye, GS F. See ya-- that sort of thing. But it's significant, though, which is, hey, why we're talking about it.
So something that's probably not significant but I'm going to throw this out here-- we've had some random features on the podcast lately. We've done beer, which is one of my favorites. I think we need to do one of those. Maybe in a few weeks, we'll get a couple people back on the show and do, like, a fall beer podcast.
BYRON HURD: Oh, I'm so here for that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's about time. What's your fall beer, by the way? Just curious. Do you have a go-to?
BYRON HURD: My go-to for years and years and years has been just a good old-fashioned Sam Adams Octoberfest.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: It's a great beer. It's always reliable. It always tastes great. And it shows up that first week of August. And in most years, that would be right before NFL preseason starts. So you have August. You've got your first ball beers. You've got NFL preseason. It's like, OK. It's turning into fall. It's about to happen. And so this year, I only got the Octoberfest out of that deal, which is fine. But yeah, I'm usually good with just about any, like, pumpkin ale or something like that. Fall is my season. This is what I look forward to.
GREG MIGLIORE: Same here. It's-- it was-- it's actually been pretty cool around here, around these parts. Sometimes, like, it's-- I don't know. It's weird in Michigan. Like, you get Labor Day in that. Labor Day was late this year. So all of a sudden, it's like, you know, the first week after it, it's like mid-September. And like, there's a little bit of a crispness in the air this week, which I've been loving. It's been--
BYRON HURD: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, it was down in the 50s, I think, last night. I'm actually wearing sweatpants right now, which-- it's been a little cooler, you know? Temperatures get down there. There's a breeze. All of a sudden, there's no humidity, and you notice it. My beer is Bell's Amber Ale. That is, to me, like--
BYRON HURD: Oh, that's a good one.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's a solid beer. Good for November. It's a little heavier.
BYRON HURD: I love Bell's Amber. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: But it's OK earlier in the year. There's a Short's beer, too, I think, that's-- oh, I can't think of it. It's like a pale ale, an autumn ale-- something like that. It's really solid. It's got, like, a--
BYRON HURD: I'll have to look.
GREG MIGLIORE: --like, a leaf-- a leave on the-- a leaf-- geez, I know my singulars and plurals for the word "leaf"-- on the bottle. But that was good, too. Anywho.
BYRON HURD: Nice. I'll have to look for that. I've got to make a run tonight. It's my game night. Do--
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
BYRON HURD: --socially-distance games with my friends from back in Cleveland. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, there you go. All right.
BYRON HURD: It's very socially distant. We're 180 miles apart.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK. All right. Well, hey, you know, we'll give a shout-out to our friends of the Yahoo ecosystem. You can watch tonight's game. It's, what, Chiefs, Texans? Is that right?
BYRON HURD: Oh, man. I actually don't have that in front of me.
GREG MIGLIORE: I believe you can--
BYRON HURD: I should.
GREG MIGLIORE: --watch that game on different Yahoo platforms, streaming-- check out our friends at Yahoo Sports. So yeah, I'll give a plug over to them.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, Houston, Kansas City [INAUDIBLE]--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a great game, too. I-- so it's--
BYRON HURD: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: --getting really late, too. I need to join a fantasy football league. I am a little surprised--
BYRON HURD: Oh, that's actually how I knew what the thing was that I just pulled it up, and I've-- I'm starting Pat Mahomes. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: You're going to win, then, 'cause--
BYRON HURD: I'm in a good mood.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's, like, fantasy nonstop points right there.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So fantasy football is great. Point of the segment, though, is-- we totally go off the rails-- was things that are better than you remember. And I'm just going to make the case here, briefly, for the Fox-Body Mustang. Growing up, for people of a certain age, Fox-Body Mustang was almost like-- it was, like, a high-school car. Many people I knew drove them. One of my best friends on cross country actually had one. And it was a cool car. It was like, dude, you have a Mustang, you know? And it was old even then, to be clear-- not that old.
But I mean, like, the door was rusted and wouldn't open. And he, like, got rid of it and got, like-- he got, like, an old Dodge Ram, like, from the late '70s, which-- in hindsight, that was maybe even cooler than the Mustang, as I think about it, just based on what he did. But at the time, it certainly wasn't. It's like, you're getting rid of your Mustang-- things you do in high school as far as cars and, you know, getting different cars. You know, it's, who's got the best car? It's-- anyways.
But anyways, I think the Fox-Body Mustang is something that is going to maybe be appreciated more. I almost, when I came up with this, went with the-- like, the next generation-- the fourth gen-- which was from, like, '94, I think, to '04, if I'm getting it right. One of my neighbors has a Mach 1, which I think is pretty cool. So I almost went with that.
But my point-- this is why I'll back this up-- is those Mustangs, I think-- the third gen, the Fox-Body-- on those platforms-- Fox platform, if you will-- to me, that car was legitimately muscular, especially for the '80s. It was a clean look.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It was-- it wasn't blocky, but it-- like, it was squared off. It's really a look that Ford, before or since, hasn't done with the Mustang. It's unique in that sense. I actually liked some of the later ones where the front end-- they kind of tweaked the headlights, made it look-- to me, it got more, like, almost timeless. Those late-- the late '70s-- like, I think it was '78, '79-- and then [INAUDIBLE] '80s with the kind of angular headlights-- I don't know. That-- those, to me, are a little weird.
And then, of course, the 5-0. You know, we were talking about Mustang engines earlier in the podcast. It was a solid engine, you know?
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Even that, like-- there was, like, I think, a L6. They called it-- I'll have to Wikipedia this. I think they called it a straight six. Oh, they did. It's actually literally in quotes on Wikipedia here-- for the '79 model year. Now I'm just reading from Wikipedia. But some of the engines were interesting. And you could get turbos.
I just think, considering, like, that second gen-- you know, some people really love those. But I do think that's definitely a generation of Mustang where there was a drop off. From the early '70s and late '60s icons, you know, they became something different. And to me--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --those Fox Mustangs really made the Mustang a little bit more like it could be, and what it--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --should be, and what it should aspire to be. My parents had an '84, I want to say. Like, literally, it was the worst car they ever had. It went through, like, two transmissions, and then they junked it. Total lemon. But it was so cool. It had the fastback, like, roofline. I remember I used to crawl through the trunk to get into it. So you know, there was that.
But I don't know. Make the case. I think the Fox-Body's underappreciated. I think they're going to be collectable, at some point, as people who are of a certain age start to get a little more nostalgic about this generation of cars. Like, I think, you know, maybe I am right now.
I mean, if you look at the Mustang in its current form, it's retro. It's more powerful. It's more sophisticated-- better than it's ever been. There's, like, the Shelby GT350R we were talking about earlier-- better than any Fox Mustang ever made on its best day, for sure-- aesthetically, performance-wise. But it's brand new, and it's got the benefit of all of this development and technology. For its time, I really think the Fox-Body Mustangs were pretty sweet.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I had a neighbor-- my immediate next-door neighbor growing up had an '88 or an '89 GT convertible that he kept in immaculate shape. He actually just recently passed, and I don't know what happened to the car because my family is all moved out of the old neighborhood. But I drove by recently and saw that they'd redone the house. And of course, the car was gone. So it's kind of a shame.
But yeah, I mean-- and the clean ones are actually starting to get expensive. I mean, if you want one that just hasn't been turned into that stereotypical high-school car, you're starting to look at, like, $15,000, $20,000 entry. So there-- people are noticing. It's catching on again, which I respect. I don't know that I have a-- I obviously didn't research this section for mine, 'cause I didn't put anything in our planning sheet here.
But I-- actually, just to cheat, I actually think the CX-9 is one of the ones that I have kind of a renewed respect for, we'll say, 'cause it's not that old of a vehicle. But just driving it this week is the first time I've driven one in four or five years. And it's a crossover, so you never really have particularly high expectations for the way they drive.
But it has just-- maybe it's because I've driven a lot of Mazdas in my life, and I'm used to the way they drive. But it's one of those cars where, if I'm going down the highway in it, I can actually, like, look at the screen, look outside the window, and the car hasn't wandered away from me, you know? Like, that sensation you get sometimes in a car where, like, if you take your eyes off the road for an eighth of a second, there's so little feedback through the wheel that you can't tell that you've wandered out of a lane.
And granted, everything these days has lane-keeping, and lane-centering, and all this other stuff. But even that is a distraction. So it's really nice to get behind the wheel of a car that you can literally feel comfortable driving one-handed down the freeway without an ounce of thought dedicated to what the car's doing relative to what you feel. And to get that in a big family car like that really is special.
I mean, they're just-- there aren't-- even the luxury large crossovers aren't very good at that. So it was kind of a breath of fresh air to get in that, especially after, like, being in the Allroad and having to negotiate with all of its various electronic systems to get it to behave the way I wanted it to just to get out of the driveway. To get in the CX-9 and have everything just kind of happen the way it should without having to think about it was really refreshing. So I'll cheat and use that as my newfound-respect vehicle.
GREG MIGLIORE: I like it. I like it. And I like the show-- fast-paced. We'll get you out of there. We'll get everybody else out of here, on their way to a great weekend. Enjoy your football. Enjoy your fall beers. Of course, be safe about them. Byron, good catching up with you. Any final thoughts?
BYRON HURD: Nope, not a whole lot. I have no football teams to get excited about this year, so I've got no one to cheer. Although, my Orioles-- Greg can see--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BYRON HURD: --that I'm wearing my O's cap right now-- might actually sneak into the playoffs in this ridiculously terrible, short baseball season we're having. So that's the one thing I'm hyped for right now.
GREG MIGLIORE: I tell you what. It's mid-September, and I'm still watching the Tigers. And they're, like, in the range of 500. They got blown out the other day.
BYRON HURD: Right?
GREG MIGLIORE: But they've got some interesting pitchers. Like, they're kind of doing what I want them to do, which is bring up the young players who are pretty good, see what they can do. Everybody else is playing OK. And I mean, it's interesting. It's something for me to do in August and September. And then, I don't know, maybe the Big Ten will start playing football later or something, and I'll have more to watch. I don't know. Maybe I'll watch Notre Dame this week. That's not something, as a Michigan State grad, I'm used to watching. But we'll leave it there, I guess.
All right. Again, that's all the time we have this week. Be safe out there. If you enjoy the "Autoblog Podcast," please leave us a five-star rating. We're available on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube-- wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time.
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