In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Road Test Editor Zac Palmer for a jam-packed news discussion that starts with an inside look at last week's Toyota Land Cruiser reveal in Salt Lake City. The two go on to talk about the possibility of a future electric FJ Cruiser, an electric baby Land Rover Defender, a theoretical Toyota Corolla-based pickup, the death of the Nissan Titan and the chance that Mercedes-AMG could go back to V8s in the C 63 S and future E-Class AMG models. After news, Zac talks about his time with the long-term 2023 Toyota Sienna and Greg chats about the Toyota Grand Highlander Hybrid Max Platinum. After that, they spend your money.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
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GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We have an awesome show for you this week. Lots of news to get to. We'll talk about some of the things we've been driving, including our long-term Toyota Sienna minivan and let's see. We'll also talk some news. We'll talk a little bit more about the Land Cruiser and electric Defender. Is the FJ Cruiser coming back? And hey, maybe Mercedes is going back to V8s.
So with that, I'll bring in road test editor Zac Palmer. How are you?
ZAC PALMER: I am great. I'm actually wearing my Land Cruiser Heritage Museum T-shirt right now that I got at the Land Cruiser Museum. I know this is gonna be a Toyota-heavy show, so I thought I'd get in the mood for it right off the get go. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I like it.
ZAC PALMER: I'm doing great. How are you? [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm pretty good. Pretty good. Most of you who have been maybe listening to the show have noticed I've been a little nasally and stuff. But I think I'm finally past all of that, hopefully. and you know, at least feeling pretty good. I may still sound a little nasally. So hopefully the audio quality is a little bit better this week.
So speaking of my nasal passages, the audio quality is always good. Shout-out to our producer, Eric Meyer, who does a great job making us sound good. no matter our levels of health.
So you were at the Land Cruiser reveal. And we've already hit this pretty hard. So if you're curious, you know, it's retro. It's mid-$55,000 for the price. Tons of pictures, tons of details. It's a hybrid powertrain, four cylinder, actually, turbo. You know the basics at this point. But Zac is one of the relatively few people who have seen this thing in real life.
Is there something, maybe, like, from your, you know, know reporting, if you will, on the ground that people who are just looking at these stories on their phone would have missed? You know, what's it like in real life?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. You know, it looks really, really good in real life. The first time that I saw it, I hadn't seen any embargoed photos. Didn't, you know, know anything about it. I just walked into the room and saw it there and was like, whoa. This does not look like the Land Cruiser that I know.
You know, we're used to this massive three row, you know, sort of SUV-ish looking thing. But no, this thing looks more like a like a 4Runner, not quite Bronco or Wrangler aggressiveness, as far as the chunky off-road style. But this looks like a serious off-roader. And it's a definite return to form of, you know, what we've seen from 40, 50 years ago from Land Cruisers, which I think is really, really neat.
I think that the interior, I mean, especially of, like, the base one-- I mean, if you had, like, the previous gen Land Cruiser, you're probably gonna be stepping into something that's a bit of unfamiliar territory. You got cloth seats everywhere. You got manual seats.
You know, it feels on the cheaper side, to be honest. You know? And it looks durable, easy to clean. It is not this, like, luxurious Land Cruiser that costs $80,000, $90,000 anymore. That really comes off in person.
Obviously, that makes it a lot more accessible, which is a really neat. But yeah, just, like, sitting in the cabin, I really, really like the whole layout. Toyota has gone heavy on in with all of the buttons and switches and dials in there. You won't have anybody complaining, oh, it's all touchscreen-based, blah, blah, blah. No, this is old-school buttons everywhere. Really, really great visibility forward.
I know that Toyota stressed that in their release, about how they really push the pillars back and got them super upright so you could see out of it. And yeah, it feels like you're sitting in a bit of a glass bubble when you're in the driver's seat, which I think was really neat, you know? That's a similar feeling as you get in something like a Wrangler or a Bronco with its very upright windows.
So I think that it really hits all of those points hard as far as, you know, it's gonna make off-roaders happy and a lot of traditionalists happy. So yeah. I mean, pretty much all really good impressions from that thing.
And I guess, like, one final thing from seeing it in person. The rectangular headlights, I think, look way better than the rounds. And I think that most of us who, like, saw pictures of it, like, online also agree with that statement. But having seen it in person, like, I can confirm your biases. Like, yeah. Like, the rectangular fit the actual body style, like, that super chunky body style better.
The rounds, they sort of look like a fish out of water in there. And, like, it's cool that they're retro. And, like, you can look at that and then look over like an FJ40 and be like, oh, oh. OK, cool. Interesting. But it just doesn't really fit the character of the car, I don't think, as well. So my two cents. I'd go with the rectangular ones. So yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's kind of what my lean was when I saw both pictures initially. I haven't seen them in real life, obviously. But I kind think, given that the vibe they went for was like the FJ62, that '80s, early '90s look, slap it on, like, you know, the earlier era, circular headlights--
While it's a nice callback-- and I always like vintage throwback stuff, whether it's cars, whether it's throwback jerseys, I think it's a nice touch. I just tend to think holistically and for the era they're going for, I agree with you. I think it's a really good look. I also happen to really like that era of off-roaders. Specifically, the Land Cruiser. So I'm excited to drive this thing.
I think, you know, really, to me, in addition to, like, obviously making it, you know, a very capable off-roader that's more the 4Runner Bronco Wrangler segment Defender is the price. You know? I mean, that, to me, really rethinks what this thing is. You know, you go from--
Like, the last Land Cruiser I drove was very dated, but it was still very, I would say, luxurious. You know, the leather, you sank right into it. It was really nice. It was big. It was three rows. For all intents and purposes, it was like a Navigator or Yukon competitor.
This really rethinks it, takes it back to what it really has been historically, like, even farther back. And I think it-- I don't know. This thought came to me. It was kind of now or never, you know?
The Land Cruiser has been, like, a luxurious L.L.Bean three-row SUV thing for about 20, 30 years at this point. You know, you start to think at that point, that's what it really is.
The last time it was really this rough-and-ready, you know, thing has been 35 years ago. You know, yes, the current models are very capable off road. But if you just looked at it, that wasn't really the ethos. It wasn't like a Wrangler. So they're definitely doing something different here with the lesser expensive materials, as you sort of delicately put it. I forget exactly what you said.
You know, that interior, those furnishings really changed the mission of what this is. So I'm excited. I think it makes it more accessible for a lot of people, too.
So yeah, I'm really interested to drive this one. Because I really like the old one, but it also, in a lot of ways, like, a $90,000 really outdated SUV, like, it's not a great way to spend your money, either. So.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. And you know? I think that this is honestly gonna be, like, the right car for more people than will even buy it. Like, there are a lot of people who probably step into a Wrangler or a Bronco, and they don't do the kind of off-roading that, like, a Wrangler or Bronco is very capable of.
So something like this Land Cruiser, for a similar price, which, yeah, like Wranglers and Broncos, you can get those up to $55,000, $60,000 in a heartbeat these days. This car is probably going to suit you a whole lot better.
And you know, you can make a similar argument for a Land Rover Defender. Those on the cheaper side are also-- they're way more refined on road. They're way easier to drive and live with than a Wrangler or Bronco is. And I think that the Land Cruiser is just gonna be that but, you know, even cheaper and hopefully with all of the Toyota reliability and the efficiency of a hybrid powertrain.
So yeah. I guess that's my hot take. Like, more people should buy this thing than probably even will, because it's probably the right car for you, if you're into that look and that feel off roading.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting because just when I kind of thought-- and we'll get to this, I guess, right now. Toyota had their lineup, you know, a little more sorted. You know, you've got the 4Runner and then at 55, you added this new Land Cruiser. OK, that makes some sense.
You get rid of this extremely expensive three-row SUV, which I'm not sure, you know, if sales were dwindling. You know, you still have a Sequoia and then you plop in the Grand Highlander, which I drove last week. We'll get to that here. It all starts pretty nicely.
Now, we're also seeing some rumors that the FJ Cruiser might come back. We reported on this last week. And this would be sort of based on the compact Cruiser EV concept, which I feel like I saw that at the New York Auto Show quite some time ago. So it's random. And I've seen-- they've done a couple versions of it, too. So this is a little bit of a wrinkle here.
I think, you know, the direction they could take it would maybe be smaller. It looks like it would be electric. So again, this wouldn't be like we're gonna bring back FJ Cruiser and then compete with the Land Cruiser and the 4Runner, which was-- when you think back 10 years ago, that was a really crowded lineup of random somewhat old-school off-road vehicles, to which I say hell yeah.
I guess this could work, right? I mean, especially if they do, indeed, make it electric, which, again, we don't really know anything about it. This is kind of a report rumor. But that would make sense if you're trying to, like, disseminate spread out these off-roaders into different buckets.
ZAC PALMER: I agree. I think that you an electric FJ Cruiser thing has a place in the lineup, especially, obviously, we've got the gas Land Cruiser that we just had here so everybody can go get their old-school off-roader. And now, you know, I mean, hopefully, we have some sort of an electric FJ Cruiser replacement.
I mean, it looks super rad. It has, you know, styling similar to what the Land Cruiser looks like, but even chunkier and even more aggressive-looking. I presume it'll be just as capable off road. Because when Toyota makes an off-road vehicle, they don't hold back.
And the fact that they are continuing to tease it-- I mean, they obviously showed us that concept. Like you said, it's been a while at this point. So the fact that they're sort of throwing it up on a screen at the same time they're throwing the new gas Land Cruiser out there is a good sign that it is, in fact, moving forward, toward production. This will actually be a thing that we see one day on the roads.
And you know, I think that they probably need it, too. Because you can guarantee that everybody else is working on electric off roaders in the same vein as That where exactly they price it is gonna be a bit of a mystery, I feel.
Like, they could come out around the same place as a 4Runner, which I feel would probably be a good place, you know, just sort of right at that $40,000 to $55,000 range. And then maybe, you know, like, a higher trend. Go all the way up into the Land Cruiser area and make it super nice, maybe, like, $60,000.
But at its size, I feel like I don't want it much more expensive than that, just because it will be a smaller off-roader, something in the vein of, like, maybe between, like, a two-door and four-door Wrangler size.
But I mean, I'm excited to see it. Because obviously, Toyota is just, you know, throwing as many off-roaders at the wall as they can right now. I mean, I really think, like, that base, a Sequoia TRD Pro is sort of like a replacement for the last gen Land Cruiser that was super huge, luxurious, and whatnot, because that's what that thing is now.
I mean, we still have the Lexus LX if you want super mega luxury with the body-on-frame vehicle. So you're really gonna have your pick of the litter here soon. And it'll be electric, gas, whatever size you want it, which is neat. Really, really neat to see.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I think, you know, in addition to, like, thematically seeing off-roaders really get a lot of traction, pun intended, you're also seeing smaller vehicles. You know the, Maverick really showed off that there's a ton of opportunity for smaller vehicles that still have, like, a truck or SUV type of vibe. So if they did go small with this, I think that could be a really good, good move, whether it's electric.
Hybrid could be a good play, too. Toyota is a little bit farther along with some of their hybrid tech than they are with their electric powertrains, so that could be an interesting play.
Actually, if you look at this teaser, there's another large, full-size vehicle in the picture that we mentioned in our story, the scooter. We don't really know much about either of those. So we'll see. I don't know. That could be an electric replacement, as we sort of posit in our theories. You know, who knows? Could that replace the Sequoia? I don't know, but it's another large SUV.
And you know, with things like the Kia EV9 with, you know, large SUVs from Volvo, certainly, large all-electric vehicles are gonna be a thing, you know, a big, three-row thing. So more on that to come.
So speaking of electric and off-roaders, now we can bring that sandwich together and move over to Land Rover. We have a report out of "Autocar," actually, which is kind of interesting. A number of different threads to pull out here. This is kind of coming as-- you know, Land Rover is gonna be a "baby defender," is what our reporter, Ronan Glon calls it.
And it'll be smaller. And this is part of the strategy to make Defender its own brand, as opposed to just the Land Rover Defender, which I'll just say that right off the top. I don't agree with that. I think they should keep the Land Rover name and still keep using it.
They're still gonna keep using it as this kind of overarching umbrella and still use it in some circumstances. But I still think it makes a lot of sense for all of their brands. It's a strong, strong name. I feel like this is one that in 10 years, a new CEO is gonna come in and be like, yeah, that wasn't right. They're gonna quietly start putting Land Rover back on things.
So baby Defender. It sounds a little-- it evokes the Evoque. Let's see how many bad puns I could get in here.
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: That's kind of what it sounds like to me, though. So I mean, it would be under the same architecture as the Evoque, the Velar, the Disco Sport. So sure. Sounds good. I mean, it'd be-- this is essentially-- it sounds, like, somewhat similar to what Toyota's going for. So I mean, it could be good. I mean, wait and see.
ZAC PALMER: I mean, the more vehicles that look like the current Defender out there, I'm not necessarily opposed to. I mean, we have the 90, the 110, the 130. So you can kind of get it in whatever body style you want.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: Add electric versions of that? Sure. You kind of really need to pad that lineup out if you want to have a whole defender nameplate. You know, you can't just have one out there. But it is sort of a growing trend. Just, like, take your most popular name and then just, like, slap it across everything.
I know that there have been a million rumors about Chevy doing that with the Corvettes. So you know, if people want that brand cachet, this is a good way to cash in on it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: Now at the same time, I think there's every chance that you're also right, that, like, hey, maybe we shouldn't move away from this storied nameplate, Land Rover. We shouldn't separate ourselves too much from it.
And there's been a lot of discussion going back and forth on, like, how-- will there be Land Rover logos on the car? Will there not? Is it just gonna be a Defender? Will there be no Land Rover, you know, at all? And it's all confusing. And I feel a bit up in the air right now, too, until they really start coming out with the car that is literally just called something without Land Rover in front of it.
Yeah. I mean, so long as the car is cool, I don't think it really bothers me too much [LAUGHS] about what they ultimately decide to call it.
GREG MIGLIORE: This actually-- it's kind of a throwback. I remember 10 years ago, when I was at "Autoweek," we had a piece-- I don't remember if we actually ran it. I think we did. I remember editing it and thinking, this is a little too boring. And it was talking about the stratification and the diversification of the Land Rover brand.
And this is what they were even talking about doing then. It was like Evoque was part of it more than-- you'd have, like-- the Defender wasn't back yet. There was more, like, a Discovery kind of thing, the Range Rover portfolio.
You know we've talked to Riswick about this. And he argues, yeah, all anybody does is say, we're gonna take the defender or the Range Rover, so you don't really need the Land Rover, which, fair.
That being said, like, there's very few brands-- and I don't even think Land Rover gets into that-- where you could get away, where it's, like, totally a one-word thing where you don't need to, like, keep the rest. You know? You don't need to do, like, an SEO make and model, the Land Rover Defender, you know, 110 when you're speaking. I don't speak in optimized terms, but for the web.
But you know, I mean, thinking aloud, it's kind of like-- I don't know. It feels like a rough brand exercise. You know, people still call a Corvette the Chevy Corvette. Mustang? Ford Mustang. You know? Dodge Challenger rolls off the tongue, you know? Not that you don't know what a Challenger is. But I don't know. Anyways, we'll let the marketing people figure that one out.
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Since we're talking small trucks here, let's jump over here to the Toyota Corolla-based small truck, which would be a Ford Maverick Fighter. And I think would make a ton of sense.
I feel like we're doing a very similar story, just different versions and slightly different brands as we weave through this news section. But I think they should do this. I think it would make a ton of sense.
I think, you know, as Ford has obviously demonstrated with the Maverick, people want something smaller. They don't really want a Focus. But say it's a truck that still kind of drives like a car but looks like a truck kind of feels like a truck, you know, this is what people would want. I think you could do a lot with the Corolla platform, too. So I think that could make a lot of sense.
Toyota's done a really good job of making things look, like, rugged, whether they are or not. Look at all the weird ways they've-- what they've done to the RAV4 with some of those, like, off-road things.
Look over at Subaru, what they've done with, like, the Outback. So I think they should do this. You know, it could even be almost like a Baja kind of style thing or an El Camino. I don't know. I think this would be a good, good move for Toyota.
ZAC PALMER: I agree. I mean, any OEM should be looking at the Ford Maverick right now and saying, how can I get a piece of this pie? Because it's so popular. People that have ordered it can't get their cars. The dealers are still charging crazy markup for all of them.
And you know, if anybody's positioned to take on a hybrid pickup truck project, it's probably Toyota, which now that the Tundra is a hybrid, the Tacoma is also offering a hybrid.
They could, you know, use the Corolla Hybrid powertrain, one of their prime powertrains, you know, any number of their very excellent and competent Hybrid powertrains and get great fuel economy, probably pretty good towing, and just great electric range from a plug-in, really great fuel economy from a pure hybrid.
They could really come after Ford here, especially just-- I feel a lot of people associate Toyota with smaller trucks more than they do the big trucks, obviously, like, F-150, Silverado, RAM. They own that market. But nothing sells better than a Tacoma in the midsize market.
And so people know Toyota for smaller trucks. And if they can come out with something that, you know, is also a smaller truck, boom, right there, you know, they got-- I feel that they could get instant market share, and people would really like the thing.
So yeah, I'm all for this idea. Make it like the Maverick. I don't know if I 100% agree with the El Camino style. I feel like you got to make this thing look like a truck, truck. Make it look like a Maverick. Make it, you know-- you know, even maybe make something like a baby Tacoma, as far as styling goes.
And you know, you can give it some off-road chops. Give it a TRD Sport or a Trailhunter, or whatever marketing brand you want to throw out there. But give it some off-road chops and make it fun. So yeah, bring on the little Toyota hybrid truck. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: So we're getting more smaller trucks from Toyota and one big one from Nissan. Dunzo.
Titan is dead after this model year, apparently. We knew this was kind of happening, but it still was a bit of a surprise because they put out, like, sort of pricing and trims. What they didn't say was, this is it. So then, you know, a lot of different know journalists went out there and confirmed it.
Carscoops actually got a memo from-- like, an internal memo here. And production is gonna end in 2024. This is in Canton, Mississippi. That's where they make it. And then that factory will transition to make EVs. Wow. I'm surprised. You know? I would say this. I'm surprised it's happening now, as opposed to wringing it out for a couple of years. And I'm also-- even though we like--
I feel like we've talked about this and written stories about this. Like, we knew the Titan was on borrowed time. It still is a really big deal to kill off a nameplate like that and your full-size flagship pickup truck.
So that being said, I mean, let's go down the rundown. Ford, Chevy, RAM, GMC. The tundra is pretty good. It doesn't beat any of the Detroiters, but it's still pretty competitive. That's four or five, depending on how you count. Did I miss anybody?
Nissan never got into that top six in the segment. You know, they made a credible offering when they did that kind of XD tweener model, where it was-- like, I remember they called it, like, almost, like, not like an F-250 or an F-150. It was, like, a 200. It was, like, in the middle, which, with a diesel, which I think may have been standard, it seemed like they were overthinking the problem. You know?
Like, OK. You're not really competitive. So let's offer something that doesn't appear anybody necessarily wants. So I don't know. You know, Titan's a fun truck to drive. Trucks are fun to drive, you know, in that sense.
But that's all she wrote. I don't know what this means for Nissan Stadium and for the Titans. You know, what do you do? That was a great brand activation for them.
ZAC PALMER: You're right.
GREG MIGLIORE: They can go back and be the Oilers. Remember when they were the Houston Oilers?
ZAC PALMER: Oh, yeah. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Great powder blue jerseys. I don't know.
ZAC PALMER: Bring on the Tennessee Oilers. I don't know how much oil production they're pumping out of the ground there in Tennessee, but-- [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, yeah. No more Titan.
It's funny. You mentioned that XD. I was actually on the-- there was a first drive for the XD I was on about-- man, I think it was for 2019, where they were doing a refresh of the XD. And it was honestly one of the more disappointing drives that I've been on. Because previous to that refresh, they had the diesel engine. But they got rid of it, which was-- like, it's one, like, selling points.
And then its towing capacity, despite it being like a medium duty wasn't really much better than, like, what you could get with an F-150 or, like, a Silverado. It just really didn't make much sense anymore, because it rode harshly, had, like, a super stiff chassis, but it did not have the diesel towing capability.
And I don't know. Maybe that's just, like, a microcosm for the Titan. And in general, it just didn't make sense for a lot of people to buy. Everybody-- I mean, it's probably the most loyal segments in the world, people buying their full-size pickups. And people never really became loyal to the Titan like they are to, you know--
I mean, even Toyota has a lot of loyal customers with the Tundra. It may not, you know, sell to the scale of something like an F-150, but people love that truck. And yeah, people just never really caught on to the Titan.
I know that we have some sales figures here. It looks like its best year is just over 50,000, which is like what Ford does with the F-150 in, like, a couple-- a few weeks, something like that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: So that's what Nissan moves in a whole year. And last year, they sold all 15,000 of them. So that's not a good number at all. So I certainly understand why they are getting rid of it here. It's just not as competitive as it should be in this segment. Everybody has moved on to bigger and better things.
And the Titan, I mean, if they really wanted it to get up there, they would have to do a massive overhaul and invest just stupid money into the vehicle. And it looks like they're just not willing to do that, which all right. Sure. Go ahead and focus on EVs if that's where you want to put your money.
GREG MIGLIORE: My guess is at some point, somebody did, like, a cost analysis. And they were like, what is it gonna cost to make this thing maybe competitive? And let's just say it's $1 billion. And then they're like, OK, how much does it cost to kill the thing? Well, maybe $20 million or whatever to retool the plant-- 100 million, say. So you, you know, kill it off, write off $100 million. You're $900, you know, in the positive, and you call it a day. And you spend that money on EVs or something else.
So-- and, like, the other thing is it wasn't like, hey, this was a competitive thing that needed investment. It was like, you know, literally, no matter what they did, they were going to be in fifth or sixth place. There was just no path forward where you're like, oh, hey, just spend the money, and this is going to work. It's like, it never worked. So yeah.
All right let's close things out with a return to V8s-- maybe-- this is interesting-- the Mercedes AMG lineup. You know, this is another-- you know, we saw this come out earlier this week, I think. You know, I just drove the Straight-6 in the E53 AMG SUV, and I really liked it. So I don't necessarily think this is a must, but, hey, it could happen. I'd be interested to see what-- you know, which-- what it would be-- these-- be-- specifically for the sedans, for the C and E63, which is, you know, the more powerful versions, if you will.
You know, I mean, I drove a few of those 6.3-- 6.2, if you will-- V8s back in the day. They were awesome. You know, I-- frankly, I mean, I don't want to totally be like, you know, they should do this because I feel like we're saying everything in this podcast should be like, yeah, do it, you know? Maybe I should be a naysayer here. But it's hard for me to say, yeah, don't do it.
You know, you're going to find a way to do your electric vehicles. I'm driving one right now, the EQE SUV. It's all electric. It's awesome. It's powerful. It's beautiful. If you want to find a way to make some V8s, sure. Do it up, man.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, this is definitely in response to a lot of negative impressions of, like, the new C63 S plug-in hybrid-- that-- that four cylinder. It's-- it's that-- man, they-- they get-- I think it's 672 horsepower out of a turbocharged four cylinder, plus electric motor, plus you have, like, eight miles of electric range on a full battery. It's-- it's a very weird vehicle, I guess. It's not exactly good as a plug-in hybrid. It's extra heavy because of all the-- the electric battery, electric motor, and everything that comes with it. I still haven't driven it yet. I cannot exactly speak to what it is, but I have read lots of reviews and spoken to people about it. And people don't necessarily care for it versus the one that just went away, which is the four liter twin turbo V8.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: You know, obviously that thing sounded like a V8. It was pure muscle. There was no hybrid anything. It was a lot lighter than the current one. So [SIGHS] obviously they went to the four cylinders for emissions reasons. Europe was like, hey, you guys need to make fewer emissions. And in city centers over there, it makes a lot of sense to run under electric power because it saves a lot of money doing that. And I think it's just straight-up illegal.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yep.
ZAC PALMER: In some places, you have to have electric power. Now, all that said, like, obviously, like the V8 is still emissions compliant and legal. Like, Mercedes is making the SL 63 and the SL 55. Those have V8s. Like, and the bigger Mercedes also have V8s, like the GLE 63 that has a V8. You know, their GLS 63-- all those have V8s. Like, they can make it emissions compliant and possible. They just chose not to with, like, the new GLC 63 and C63. So I don't know. Maybe people have shouted loud enough. And-- and all that said, like, this is-- this is a bit of a rumor mill report.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: I mean, I'm not just going to take it for granted that this-- this is in fact happening because it would be, like, a massive swing around, to, like, "Hey, guys, this is our new four cylinder. This is the path forward," and then all of a sudden say, "Hey, actually, we're going back to the V8s." So I don't know. I mean, if they did go back to it, I got no problem with that. I love the four liter twin turbo V8s.
At the same time, I love-- so I drove-- it was a 2020 CLE 45 with the same four cylinder, as is what they put in-- I shouldn't say it's the same-- It's very similar as what they put in the C63 here. I love that 4 cylinder. It made great noises. It was super responsive, just crazy amounts of boost. It was a hilarious engine.
Now, that's not to say that it's the same experience in the C63 S that's out now, but I didn't exactly hate that. And you know, it-- versus the V8s, I don't know if I would be too mad about having that versus it. But I guess this is sort of a wait and see if Mercedes backtracks here. I certainly wouldn't mind a number of years more of V8s. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: If-- if it happens, cool. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think if you're going to do it, now's the time, just because there's still plenty of V8s. On sale. It wouldn't be that hard to shoehorn this M177-- that's the four liter-- into these specific cars that I think would give, you know, the people who are looking for, you know, the car as opposed to getting like an AMG SUV. You know, I think you definitely want that dynamic that like a car offers you as well as perhaps a V8. You know, maybe that's the mindset and you're not willing to make that, if you aren't just looking to drive some, like, high powered SUV.
I always thought the plug-in hybrid was kind of a weird one too. I haven't driven it either, but, like, it's super powerful. The specs are just insane. But it's still a four cylinder, which, you know, kind of boggles the mind a little bit when you look at it. So I mean, I don't know. There's a lot going on there. I think, in some ways, like, it may have over-solved the problem.
Like, you're trying to do battle with these different competitors from Audi and BMW, and then, you know, you knew you were going with the four cylinder. It's a plug-in hybrid. You know that's going to cause some dissonance. So OK, let's make the specs just insane, you know?
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: But it's not always the numbers. It's like, how does it feel, you know? You drive these cars because you want to drive them, not just to compare fantasy football numbers, so yeah, I mean--
ZAC PALMER: It's-- it's a great point there. You bring up BMW and Audi. Like, you can hop across the way, buy a BMW M3 with that 3 liter inline six that is just pure bliss. There's no hybrid anything going on there-- same with an Audi RS5. You get their twin turbo V6 that sounds gnarly, just pure thunder. I could totally see that being a problem for-- for Mercedes. You got a lot of people that, you know, they'll buy these cars-- you buy them a lot for the sound these days and the experience that comes with that awesome gas engine. If all you really care about is that straight line speed, you can go out and buy, like, a Tesla Model 3 performance, and--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --that'll beat all of those cars in a straight line. So yeah, a lot of it is-- is that experience.
GREG MIGLIORE: I drove the BMW XM recently, which is a twin turbo V8. But it's also a hybrid. And you know, again, that's a V8, and I still had a lot of questions and a little bit of confusion. You know, there's just so much going on with that application that I was kind of, like, yeah, I don't-- I don't know about this, you know? And I know I've talked to a few other people, who have driven it who have sort of fallen on either side of me.
I think Joel, who I traded cars with, our news editor, he also was like, wow, dude, there's a lot to process here-- ended up liking it. I'm also I've talked to Pras Subramanian, who works for Yahoo Finance and does review-- car reviews for them, and he was a little bit like, yeah, I don't know, man, there's just so much going on here. This is the right car for some people, but-- [LAUGHS] he was kind of like, but not for me, and that's kind of where I ended up landing too. And you know, yeah. I mean, I tend to think that's kind of where Mercedes finds itself, with these-- these two specific AMGs.
So yeah, that is our news section. Let's go running through a couple of reviews-- a couple of Toyotas, actually. You're in the Sienna. We're about to trade. I will get that tomorrow, and you could get in the six-figure Mercedes EQE, which we'll talk about that on an upcoming podcast, but I'm really liking it. It's a lot of fun, beautiful car, beautiful crossover. But tell me, what have you been doing in this minivan?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, so I have moved houses over the past month.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: What-- what better vehicle to do it in than a minivan, right? Yeah, so I have basically stuffed this thing from floor to ceiling many times over, and you know, it's been nice having a massive cavernous area. One-- one story I wrote here recently did bring some of the, uh, I guess, less good parts to the forefront as well. But I guess you sort of see both the good and the bad when you're constantly using a vehicle like this.
The load floor is unfortunately just not as flat as-- as you might expect in a minivan. And you'll be-- you've probably seen that too, loading things in and out, like trying to get things over that third row that doesn't exactly settle down. There's a lot of hooks and just snags to get things caught on, just-- you know, just like a slight annoyance when you are trying to move a lot of things.
You know, you got to crawl in there. You end up smashing yourself into a-- like a gully within the trunk. And it's-- it's sort of weird and awkward moving things in and out of that van versus-- like, we had a long term Chrysler Pacifica a while ago, and that thing had a perfectly flat floor. And that's--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --that's-- I don't know, like, it makes a huge difference, when-- when you've got a lot of stuff moving in and out. It's-- it's a lot more efficient and easy to work with. So I don't know. I'll-- I'll give the CNS cargo area probably, like, a good, like, 6.5 to 7 out of 10. Great score because, you know, it's-- it's huge, it's big, but it's just annoying to deal with in, in a lot of ways.
The second row seats not being removable is also slightly annoying. Like, you can shove them all the way forward, but it takes a lot of tools. You got to deactivate the-- the side airbags as well. Otherwise, that-- that poses a problem. So I ended up not taking them out to move stuff, just because it is such a hassle. But yeah, that's-- that's one negative as far as minivans go. I mean, if you're using it for-- for moving a lot of stuff, it's-- it's probably annoying for short periods of time.
But I feel like most people that buy minivans probably want those seats up anyways because they got kids and things to put back there. The actual driving of it-- man, I-- I really like this thing. I've been getting such good fuel economy. I've been basically doing, like, three, five mile stints back and forth between one house and another because that's about how far I moved from my current place. So nothing's better for city driving than a hybrid.
Stuff it full, and it's-- you know, it's just nice. I love all the brown leather in there. The-- the faux wood trim is super convenient. It's just such an easy vehicle to drive. I mean, the-- the one funny thing-- I mean, this thing has every option goody in the bag. It's-- it's an expensive minivan. But like, the-- the cooled seats, I've been using a lot here recently throughout the summer, and they're like jet planes taking off. Like, when you throw that cool seat on, it's like you got the fans on kill everywhere throughout the car. Like, I've never heard a louder cooled seat in my life--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes, I agree with that.
ZAC PALMER: --which is just a weird impression to have, but like, [LAUGHS] I just felt like I had to throw that out there because they're so dang loud. But yeah, no, I've-- I've certainly enjoyed my time in it, and it's-- it's probably, I think-- I think it's-- it's my favorite minivan. I-- I like driving it more than the-- more than the Chrysler, more than the Honda.
The Carnival is probably my favorite to look at still, but I-- you just-- it's so tough to beat that hybrid fuel efficiency with it-- and just the really, really great control panel and interior. I am-- I am-- I'm smitten with it. If it just had that flat load floor, I think I'd-- I'd love it, but as it is, I just really, really like it. So yeah, Sienna. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's really-- those are two interesting observations. I drove this thing to Gulf Shores in the Florida Panhandle-- jeez, gosh, it's been like-- three, four months ago, it was mid-spring, so I'm looking forward to another road trip. Going to take it to the UP, put a lot of stuff in it. Like you, that kind of pass over, like, hump in the back, it's always a little bit of a pain to try to figure out, like, where you're going to put, like-- you know, so I'm going to probably take a really big cooler and probably take my golf clubs.
And the fishing poles will fit wherever they go over the top, but still it's like, yeah, that's kind of a weird thing. You know, and you can kind of get that extra compartment when you flip over the top, which gives you some space, but then there's a little bit of a trade-off there, you know?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I do wish it was a little flatter. It's still like head and shoulders above most SUVs and crossovers just because of how big it is back there. That's super, you know, cavernous. You could just start stacking stuff, and you don't even have to think. Whereas if you're in something, you know, like my wife's GMC Acadia, you know, it's-- there's like, the wheel wells. You just-- you have to think more, and like, what's going to go where. So you know net-net, it's a good thing, but yeah, it's a little annoying. Golf clubs are going to have to probably get propped somewhere weird. We'll figure that one out. And the cooler is always a challenge.
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Loudest vents-- I agree with you. And I've been in some cars with loud vents. The Grand Highlander, which I'll talk about next year, had very loud cooled seats. It sounds like you're in, like, a plane--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --when they turn the like the air on before takeoff.
ZAC PALMER: It's wild. It's wild.
GREG MIGLIORE: No, it's weird. I don't know-- like, the other thing-- it's not like it's that cool, either. Like, I didn't find myself in this, like, hyperbaric chamber, you know, where I'm, like, cooled off. So that's kind of a weird one, but I'm looking forward to getting some time in it. I imagine I'll probably keep it for a couple-- few weeks. Then we'll trade it out again, as we do with these long termers. I guess it'll probably get me into early September, so that's good. We'll do back to school-- maybe get through that for the first part.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: That'll generate some content, if you will.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, and one-- one more thing before we do transition to Grand Highlander.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah?
ZAC PALMER: In case you-- you at home have-- have a Sienna and you find yourself needing to move, a first Gen Porsche Boxster hardtop--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --it does fit in the back of a Sienna.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a nice tease for the Spend my Money segment too.
ZAC PALMER: I know. Yeah, exactly, right? But I know that's-- that's some niche content for you guys there, but did that last night.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
ZAC PALMER: And yeah, it fits like a glove. It's-- it's honestly--
GREG MIGLIORE: Did you get a picture?
ZAC PALMER: Oh yeah, of course.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK, good, good, good.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, I know. [LAUGHS] Yeah, it's like, you cannot-- I mean, there's like half a centimeter on-- on either side. You just put a little padding there, and boom, you can move your Boxster hardtop in the back of your Toyota Sienna, so--
GREG MIGLIORE: I think that is a great update right there-- four paragraphs with a picture. I would totally read that. That is cool.
ZAC PALMER: Exactly. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. All right, well, I don't know if you could get a, you know, hard top at the back of the Hybrid Max Platinum Grand Highlander that I tested last week. I really liked it. It-- this is kind of a weird place to go mentally, but with the reveal of the Land Cruiser, which I still had the Grand Highlander during, and the fact that it was a hybrid-- this is the Grand Highlander-- with the kind of like springy brakes, it kind of made me almost think, oh, it's like I'm driving the new large Toyota replacement for the Land Cruiser.
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Which, no, it's not, like, the-- just the old school brakes of the forerunner of the Land Cruiser. This is like the hybrid springy feeling. But it was enough to kind of get the thoughts flowing. And it does make a lot of sense when you think about it now. Because now this one starts at 58. I had a very loaded up one. And the grand Highlander is, of course, the three row one. The hybrid XLE-- that's more like 45-ish. You can get a base model, a base, an XLE, for 43.
So there's a bit of a spectrum here-- seven different models, if you will, on this-- you know, on the Grand Highlander spectrum. The Hybrid Max was very nice. It-- it was like kind of like a deep-- I don't even know what to call it. But multiple people really enjoyed the color of it, which-- weird thing to talk about on a podcast because you can't see it-- but if you're looking for, like, a Grand Highlander, it's a pretty good color to take. It's kind of like a deep cobalt blue, if you will. So that's pretty nice.
The thing was pretty loaded, as you would expect for 58. It had all sorts of things, from LED lights, 20-inch wheels. You know, interior was pretty nice. It had that Toyota leather type thing they do. I assume it's actually real leather. There were some suede stuff going on. Infotainment was pretty good.
Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, so you've got the Platinum, and then the Limited is like also quite loaded, if you will. So both models give you a ton of things here. Again-- LED lights, leather, you get that infotainment system. You know you even get like back row heated seats, that type of thing, which puts you at 54. So both-- both solid premium type vehicles.
You look at the-- you know, if you just want the hybrid, you just want to step up to that, which I would argue you should probably do. When you look at some of these-- the mileage discrepancies, you know, the Hybrid XLE-- that's the base one-- for $44,670, you're at 37 and 34 miles per gallon, which I think is very, very good. You with hybrids, you get a little better city mileage. That's why that number might sound a little weird.
But to me, that's-- that's the move right there, is to do that. So it was-- actually, I think this is my first taste of the Grand Highlander. I liked it. John Snyder actually serendipitously, if you will, put up a Buying Guide at around the same time. So it was kind of checking that out at different points. So check that out too. If you're looking for more, like, Autoblog content on this, he liked it as well. So I think it was-- it tracks, like, his impressions, if you will.
He called it expensive, which, bear, I get it. You know, it goes into a segment where there's a lot of, like, mainstream commodity brands that are trending premium, whether the things that we know and like, like the Kia Telluride Hyundai Palisade. The new pilot is pretty good. So there's a lot of stuff in there. But offering this, like, hybrid Powertrain, I think, is-- is a good know value proposition for Toyota.
I think it's-- and as you expected, this is, like, it's built off sort of like the Highlander. You didn't think they were going to screw this up. Like, if you screw up a variant of the Highlander and you're Toyota, you're really screwing things up. You know, that would be like Ford somehow screwing up, you know, an Explorer or something.
So I think people are going to like this. This is definitely, like, what people are looking for right now, as far as like, hey, you can get a pretty big vehicle with fuel economy up to 37 miles per gallon. You know, the only thing-- like, slight downside-- Snyder noted this as well-- again is, like, I definitely said it's a good value. But again, for $58,000, you could even get into like some, like, German-level luxury. Maybe not quite as nice or quite as-- because obviously you pay for it, if you look at, like, a Mercedes or a BMW, but you could at least get into those brands. For 58 grand.
You may not want to be like, hey, I've got a $58,000 Toyota, you know? So something to think about. I was in some nice neighborhoods, and I was kind of comparing different cars, and I'm thinking, yeah, I bet this car costs more than this car over here. But nobody's going to care because it just looks like a kind of nice Toyota, you know? So different-- and maybe you don't care about that, either. That's the other thing, you know? So kind of my mini review of the Highlander-- the Grand Highlander.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, and one-- one aspect of that, to bring this back to Land Cruiser, because we talked a lot about Land Cruiser like the-- the one that you had, the-- the Hybrid Max Powertrain. That's very, very similar to the-- the actual Powertrain that's going to be in the new Land Cruise. It's the same-- it's the 2.4L turbocharged four cylinder combined with an electric motor.
It's not the exact output figures. The-- the Land Cruiser has slightly different torque figures, and it also has an eight speed automatic instead of a 6 speed in the-- the Grand Highlander that you had. But very similar engine and electric motor tech that I think we're going to see there. So hopefully it was good. Hopefully it bodes well for the Land Cruiser. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. It's-- you know, Toyota has been trying to sort of clean up their SUV lineup, and I think they're-- they're getting there with you know the different things they've been doing, and sort of lopping off the Land Cruiser has allowed them to reset the rest of it. All right, should we spend some money?
ZAC PALMER: Let's spend it up.
GREG MIGLIORE: I am a Porsche fan, but I am young and I do not have Porsche money yet. I want something that has characteristics of a Porsche, like great handling, feels fast, and track-focused. I know it won't be the same level, so it would be ideal to get a car that could do some subtle track focused-- that I could do some subtle track focused modifications to. Hate convertibles, and I need something I can drive in snowy conditions, so something like an MX5 or Boxster isn't a good fit. Any suggestions?
This comes to us from the Reddit archives thread. That means, if you're looking to get in to spend some money, that's podcast@autoblog.com. We have some openings right now. Send them in. Get them in there. This is interesting. It's-- it's a little bit of contrarianism in some ways. Because on one hand, $20,000 to $30,000-- you actually do have Porsche money. It's a used Porsche, but you could get that. But you also have the snowy conditions. So that's a little tricky too. You are a-- you said a Gen 1 Boxster, if I recall right, owner. And I don't know if you want to tell us the price or not, that's fine-- or give us a range.
ZAC PALMER: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: But you can do this, basically. Like, you basically did this. The trick is, you probably just don't want to drive it in early January in Michigan. So yeah, what would you do here, Zac?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, I mean, so if you're willing to go used, you can get yourself into a first Gen Porsche Cayman.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: I mean, he said he hates convertibles, so all right, don't buy the Boxster. Granted, I own a Boxster, I've owned it for-- I don't know-- about-- well, almost a whole year now. I love it. If I could convince you to like convertibles, I would tell you to go buy that. But whatever. We have-- we have the Cayman. Actually, I have-- have a friend that just sold a Cayman-- first gen Cayman S. You can totally get one in this $20,000 to $30,000 range, and you can get a pretty nice one too.
It's-- it'll be decent miles, well-- well taken care of, maybe even a decent enough color. And it's mid-engine. You can put some winter tires on that thing, and it will go in the winter. I can guarantee you that. I'm sure that you you've driven them in the winter too, Greg-- and 9/11, the Cayman. Like, whatever, like, you have the weight over that rear axle, you have-- have the right tires on it, and you can really get through some snow.
And if you live somewhere, like, like Buffalo or that gets insane snow, maybe it's not-- not the greatest choice and you really need the ground clearance, but for the most part, like, you can probably get through, like, 98%, 99% of winter with a used Cayman on winter tires. Now, if you're not willing to go used, you know, you're saying you don't have Porsche money, so maybe you do want something newer, I would definitely just go get yourself the BRZ or a GR86-- very similar idea.
It's a two door, rear wheel drive coupe. And it is super lightweight, and it will still go in the snow if you need it to. And it'll also be great on the track, so-- and you can get that in the manual, and there are mods aplenty if that's what you want. And I should also mention, yeah, obviously there's mods aplenty for the Cayman too if you really want to throw some money at that. So Cayman-- I mean, you love Porsches, go buy that Cayman. Take some risks. You might have to pay some in maintenance and all that, but it'll-- it'll probably be worth it to you. So yeah, what do you got, Greg?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, well, first of all, I-- I really like older Porsches, especially ones that are, like, used-- maybe not quite vintage, but they're drivers. So I always want to sort of confirm that bias, if that's what you're thinking. Slap on some snow tires. Depends on where you live too. Like, if you live in, like, I don't know, Baltimore, where maybe it snows a couple of times, you're going to be OK.
If you're in Calgary, it's a different story, right? So you kind of got to maybe know how your winters are going to be as far as, like, just how severe they are. But I think, like, what you laid out is definitely a good option. If you want to try something a little bit different-- this is going to be a little bit more pricey for you, but you could get, like, a 2018 Volkswagen Golf R. That'll come in-- I'm seeing one on Edmunds for about 36. So that's just a little bit over-- like, 5 yards over, if you will, as far as your $20,000 to $30,000 range.
I don't know how flexible that is. It's all wheel drive. I would still slap snow tires on that, because it's kind of a small car. And you know, all wheel drive only does so much. But you know, all wheel drive, Golf R in the winter, I think you'll be OK. I've driven a Golf R in the winter and the snow in February. I did a video shoot of it, and it was OK, you know? So I think that could be fun. Could be a good track car, obviously-- you know, Golf R, have some fun with that.
So that's just another take on it. I tend to think Porsche is sort of the right answer here. But this is a-- I would say-- a different-- a different approach, if you want to try something, you get a little bit newer. I bet if you search hard enough and you're willing to take some miles and go back a few years, you could get this into your price range. So another idea to consider, and it's not a convertible, which is obviously a deal breaker here for the writer.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, no, I certainly like the idea of a Golf R. I guess any sort of all wheel drive thing in that range would-- would work too. I don't know if you're a WRX guy, but, hey--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --it's a horizontally opposed engine. If you're after that, you know, there's-- there's a Porsche, there's-- there's a WRX, similar orientation.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: But--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's another good one, Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, I mean, obviously those-- those things are crazy money used. So maybe you can even find one new for-- for that-- for that price. And hey, the new one is-- maybe you don't like the way it looks, but it rocks to drive. It is super, super fun.
GREG MIGLIORE: Another car that I kind of forgot came with all wheel drive is the Mazda 3. So that could be fun to track. You know, again, it's-- it doesn't look like all wheel drive is totally like an absolute thing on here-- I'm kind of inferring that. But I'm also trying to extrapolate what would be practical in the winter.
You could get one of those in the early-- low to mid-20s, so-- especially if you even take a slightly used one, which, you know, good luck, I guess, either way. Slightly new, slightly used-- it's tough in this market. But that's a fun car. I happen to think it's a very good looking. So something else to consider. Again, maybe slap some snow tires on that, and away you go. Happy sledding.
ZAC PALMER: And there is an aftermarket community for it. We have a Mazda 3 on our driveway right now. It's not an all wheel drive one, but yeah, it-- if you go through Mazda CorkSport, they make a lot of stuff for that car.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: And you can turn it into-- I want to call it a full Mazda speed, but you can definitely make it a lot more sporty and aggressive than-- than it came from the factory.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, sounds good. So that's all the time we have this week. If you enjoyed the show, please give us five stars on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get the show. Send us your Spend My Moneys, or, hey, we sometimes do a mailbag. That's podcast@autoblog.com. Be safe out there, and we will see you next week.
[ROCK MUSIC]
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