In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Consumer Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski. They kick things off by talking about Jeremy's recent drive in the new 2021 Subaru Crosstrek. They compare the BMW X1, BMW X2 and Mini Countryman before providing another take on the Cadillac CT5. Recent Lucid Air and Tesla Model S news has them wondering if electric cars are the new performance kings and end with a quick discussion on California's intent to zero emissions by 2035.
Transcript[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today from Central Ohio is our consumer editor, Jeremy Korzeniewski. What's going on, man?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I'm currently sitting outside. It is officially fall. We're recording this on a Tuesday at the end of September, and it is overcast. There's a little bit of a chill in the air, but it's just nice enough that I can still sit outside. So I'm making use of that.
GREG MIGLIORE: About roughly 100 or so miles to the north is where I sit, and the weather is almost exactly the same. Maybe not even 100. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, it's fall, a good time of year, one of my favorites. It's a little cooler, actually. We had a relatively cool September, and then it did kind of heat up at the end.
But it's October now, or it's going to be October. And by the time anybody's listening to this, it will definitely be October.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. And not that anyone really needs to know this, but I will turn 40 years old on October 9. So quite the--
GREG MIGLIORE: Congratulations.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh. Well, you know, I guess 40 years is a congratulatory event, right? A big, round number.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a big one. But at the same time, the cliche-- age is just a number. And that's awesome.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: 40 is the new what?
GREG MIGLIORE: 30?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: 40 is the new 30? Let's go it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Something like that. Anyways, happy birthday early to Jeremy. And we got a great show for you. We can all celebrate here. We're going to talk a lot about the cars Jeremy has been driving. The Crosstrek-- he went to a first drive of that, actually in Ohio.
We're going to get down into the X1 versus the X2 versus the Countryman, just a little bit of-- I don't know-- we'll break down which of these platform makes we like the best. I don't know. It's kind of interesting. I know you spent some time in some of them, anyway. All of them, right?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I've driven all of them, yeah, most recently the X1. But I've been in a couple of variants of X2. I think I've been in all the Countrymens, including the plug-ins. So yeah, I have thoughts.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. I have thoughts as well. And then lastly, we will circle back and talk about the Cadillac CT5, which we did talk about recently with West Coast Editor James Riswick. But Jeremy has spent some time in it. It would be good to see if these thoughts line up.
And I always find Cadillac to be a bit of a lightning rod. It's great to talk about it. People are interested in it. So hey, we'll talk about it again. I got a new segment here talking about what's going on with a plan to have, basically, electric cars in California by 2035. That's going to be interesting. We'll see if it comes to pass, look at our crystal balls, and a couple other green things.
And that's the show. Coming up in a few weeks, while I have Jeremy here, I'll tease it out to everybody else. We haven't set a date for it, but we will do like a fall beer podcast. We did a summer beer podcast where we just talked about all sorts of different brands and things we like. But this one-- it's October. I think it's a great time to do one, specifically revolving around all the great fall beers you can get, especially in the Upper Midwest. I think we're especially good at these types of beers that are robust, flavorful, have their own take. That'll be coming up in, say, a couple of weeks.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I think that we've got such great fall beers because we've got such great falls.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Having lived all over the country-- I lived in Arizona for years, I lived in the Pacific Northwest-- and nothing is quite like fall in the Midwest. It gets crisp. The colors start changing. We have better colors here than any place I've ever lived. East Coast, Rhode Island, those areas, they've got pretty colors there too. But there's something about fall in the Midwest, and football season is in full gear. And so it would make sense that we've got good fall beers too, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: I think so. The temperature works out pretty good. It's sort of like the one roughly six-week period where the temperature really works in our favor to have just a beautiful setting, whereas it balances out the fact that it gets so hot here in the summer and so unbelievably cold for the other six months of the year. So yeah, so it goes.
But you drove the Crosstrek.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I did.
GREG MIGLIORE: You gave it a really good the good review, I think. Nicely done, of course. But you also give it a very positive review.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I did, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So break down your thoughts on the Crosstrek.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, OK. So I'll preface this all by saying last fall season up in-- well, not quite the Upper Peninsula, but the upper part of the mainland in Michigan-- we went up there-- Traverse City, Petoskey area, and did a subcompact crossover comparison test.
GREG MIGLIORE: Right. It was right about this time.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. And in that test, we had the Honda HRV, the Jeep Renegade, the Hyundai Kona, and the Kia Soul. And they finished in that order with the Soul on top.
And at the time, a lot of us opined that the Subaru Crosstrek would have performed really well in that test. We weren't able to get one, and they had some model year changeovers that were happening. So it didn't work out in our testing at that time.
And we even mentioned in the write-up of that comparison that not every solid entry was in there. And the Crosstrek was the main piece of the puzzle that potentially was missing. We've always liked the Crosstrek.
I went back and looked at our reviews of the Crosstrek going all the way back to its-- I don't remember-- was it 2012, something like that, when it first was released? 2012, 2013, something like that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's more there.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. It really kind of invented this segment when you think about it. There have been small crossovers in the past. But if you look at what's out there now, things like the CHR, the Toyota CHR, the Honda HRV-- like, those are-- the Nissan Kicks-- they're basically little hatchbacks with a bit more ground clearance and crossover-y styling.
So they sit up a little bit higher. They're made to look a little bit more rugged. And not every entry offers all-wheel drive. Not every entry has a good amount of power or anything like that. But they all kind of follow the basic pattern that was set out by the Crosstrek.
And at the time, I remember thinking, is this really what people want? Do they really want these little, small, not very fast, not super utilitarian vehicles? Well, the answer has been a resounding yes. This is what people want.
And since that 2012, the segment has just blown up. Everybody offers one. Even luxury brands are offering them. Look at things like the Lexus UX. And we're going to talk a little bit about the BMW X1, X2, MINI Countryman a little bit later. They're all relatively similar size. They're basically small cars, but they've got enough utility because of the hatchback. They've got a little bit more ground clearance, a little bit higher of a seating position. And it's apparently exactly what people want because they sell like crazy.
And the Crosstrek has always been one of the better options. And that's especially true since-- I think it was 2017, maybe for the 2018 model year. And you guys have access to the internet, so you can look this up to check me on it. But that was when Subaru switched over to their new platform, which is excellent. It's way more solid than the old platform that the Impreza Crosstrek WX had been based on.
The styling is good. The technology is good. The interior feels high quality, the ride, the handling. Everything about it has been really good minus thing-- it's underpowered. The Crosstrek has felt underpowered since the start, which is not abnormal for the small crossover segment.
But they finally gave it what it needed-- a bigger engine. They went from the 2-liter, which I think had 152 horsepower, to a 2.5-liter with exactly 30 more. It's 182 horsepower, I believe.
And I don't want to oversell it. It hasn't transformed the Crosstrek. It hasn't turned it into a sporty vehicle. But it has rectified the one thing that everyone who drives it would notice in that it's underpowered. And that low-power engine is exacerbated by the CVT transmission, which a lot of enthusiasts don't like anyway. But especially when you pair it with an engine that's got to be wrung out to make any reasonable power, those things just-- they don't mix well.
A continuously variable transmission and an engine that's got to be wrung for power. It ends up just turning into a droning nightmare. It's constantly spinning at high RPM, and you feel like you've constantly got to put your foot in it to get anywhere. And that's not just trying to stop light Grand Prix or anything. That's just merging onto the expressway or hitting the gas to get up so you can change lanes or something like that.
So yeah, the 2.5-liter engine is really-- in my opinion, it's a must-have for the Crosstrek. If you're shopping in that segment-- and I'm not one to tell people, extend your loan out. But if it comes down to the Crosstrek is what you want, you can't afford the payments on the 2-liter-- or excuse me-- on the 2.5-liter-- if that couple thousand dollars is the difference, talk with the financing guy and see if you can add a couple months to the loan, six months or something like that, because it really is worth it.
It makes the car from-- I talked with James Reswick about this. He's driven them before, and he's got some friends with them. It transforms it from a must-drive, which is what he said-- like, it's a must-test if you're shopping in that segment-- but now it's not just a must-test. You're probably going to strongly consider bringing this thing home if you're shopping in the segment. It's really, really a game changer for the Crosstrek.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's interesting. I think, so if you are in the market-- sometimes I think on first drives when we get these cars to review, sometimes it can be a little tough to break down what exactly the real most important element of-- the new element of the vehicle is. But here it's pretty spotlight. It's the engine.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And you can still get the 2-liter. In fact, you still have to get the 2-liter if you get the base model or the premium, which is why I'm kind of harping on the MSRP, the sticker price. It is more expensive. You have to step up to a sport or a limited model to get the bigger engine. But it's worth it. It really, really makes a big difference to just the overall livability of the car.
Now, I will also say that you can get a six-speed manual with the 2-liter engine in the base model, and that's a different ballgame. With the manual transmission, it gives you control over what the engine does. I'm not going to say it's any quicker than the CVT. It probably isn't. And the gas mileage is significantly worse with the manual because the continuously variable transmissions is going to have a really low final drive ratio, so it helps with the fuel mileage.
But with the six-speed and the 2-liter engine, it doesn't feel peppy, but it's a fun little car. And something about having a manual transmission-- you don't mind wringing it out quite so much because you're not forced to. You don't have to always do it. The CVT and that underpowered engine, it makes the Crosstrek drone, and it makes it feel super underpowered, which was one of our big complaints with the Honda HRV.
Greg, you were out for that comparison test. And you probably remember anytime you try to get anywhere in the HRV, it's like you constantly feel like you're-- not flooring it, but you're really hitting the gas hard, and you're really working the engine. And it ends up sounding messy and thrashy.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's a great point. I think the HRV in particular was the example of a vehicle that just needed a little bit more-- it felt a little too bare-bones to me. That vehicle, I thought, was-- it sort of walked the line of-- I don't say walked the line-- it was underpowered. And the interior wasn't too good. And I believe it finished at or near the bottom of that comparison.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, it was in last place. And Honda could do the exact same thing that Subaru just did. It's not like Honda doesn't have a range of engines that it could drop into the HRV to rectify that underpowered problem that it has. And to Subaru's credit, that's exactly what they did.
And as much as all of us would love to see them drop a turbo-charged WRX engine in the Crosstrek-- we all want to see a Crosstrek RX, or whatever you want to call it-- Crosstrek XT-- but that's not what the masses are clamoring for. What they really wanted was just take the edge off that underpowered power plant. And that's what Subaru did.
GREG MIGLIORE: Very nice. Very nice. So this was actually the first press trip that you've gone on-- really, any of us have gone on as far as staffers-- in the coronavirus era. Just full disclosure-- it took us a while to make sure it was like a reasonable thing to do and get approvals and all that stuff. But I'm just curious-- how was it?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I'll say that I was prepared to walk away when I got there. If I got there and it felt like they're not taking this seriously, that would-- I was prepared for it to be messy. And to Subaru's credit, it wasn't. They did an excellent job.
They did it all outdoors-- the first press trip I've ever done in my home state of Ohio, for what it's worth. But they rented an entire property in rural Ohio. They built a big tent. And they did everything outdoors in the tent. They brought their own tables that they could sit two people at on opposite ends, required that everyone wore masks.
They had hand sanitizer at every table. Every time you'd go anywhere, one person to a car. And they took all the necessary precautions. I never once felt uncomfortable on that trip. And that was the big concern is that you feel like you've got to do something because it's your job, but you also feel like you've got to take care of yourself and your family. And thankfully, it wasn't an issue at all on this trip.
Also, one cool thing that they did is at dinner, if you ordered a glass of wine, they had gotten these half-bottles of wine so that they weren't passing them around all the time. You order a glass of wine, they'd pour it for you, and then they'd leave that little half-bottle there, and they'd say, OK, that's your bottle. So that just shows you the detail that they went to make sure that everyone was comfortable and they weren't concerned about not properly socially distancing. So yeah, they did a good job.
GREG MIGLIORE: Somebody call Anthony Fauci. If you give me half a bottle of wine, I'm going to be a lot more comfortable in a lot of situations. So that sounds pretty good.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, you don't have to drink the whole half-bottle of wine. You don't have to drink it. But they're just not going to give it to anybody else.
GREG MIGLIORE: There you go. That sounds great. We'll put that up on the CDC website, everything.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: No wine sharing. If you open a bottle, it's yours.
GREG MIGLIORE: The funny thing is that actually happened to me in Europe. This was, like, five years ago, way before this. They just gave everybody-- it wasn't a half a bottle. It was something like they opened the bottle, and then we were passing it around. Everybody was tapping off their glass.
And then somehow, I just ended up with the wine. I thought, this is like really good French wine. And I just took it back to my hotel room and finished it off just because the bottle landed at my plate, and it was my place setting. And it was an outdoor thing. And I was like, yeah. I have to do some work, got to do some writing. And granted, it was like, one more glass at that point, but hey.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I applaud you, Greg. You didn't want it to go to waste. Yeah. I mean, what are you supposed to do? Pour it out? That would be alcohol abuse, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, I tell you what. It was on Bastille Day. And we were in-- I feel like this was a trip that was in Strasbourg. So it was pretty fun, a pretty good time.
All right. So that's the Crosstrek. Let's move along. While we're staying in the crossover time, crossover segment, if you will, the BMW X1, X2, and the MINI Countryman. These are three vehicles that are essentially on the same platform. They are on the same platform. And I know you've been through all three of these.
And to me, it's like, I sort of feel like the X2 or maybe the MINI are the way to go. The X1 is, to me, the most sanitized one that just-- I think it's the most boring. It tries to be like an X3 or an X5. It doesn't quite pull it off. It's like you're wearing a shirt that's shrunk, and you're still trying to wear it because you like it, but it's not the thing. So--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, that's a good description. That kind of is the case with the X1, isn't it? It's trying to be like the X3 and X5, which are wildly successful sales-wise. The X1-- you know, it's a front-wheel drive vehicle. And that's kind of like-- I don't know-- the antithesis of what BMW stands for.
They're historically the ultimate driving machine, which have you ever noticed that they don't call themselves that anymore? I think part of it is because it's not-- that kind of thrust, that driving message isn't all that applicable these days. I mean, it is. But if they want to continue growing their brand, they have to branch out and be all things to everyone, or at least offer all things to everyone.
And to their credit, they still do everything with M badges, big, crazy, turbo-charged V8 engines. And I'll put it this way. They still make the M5 for their enthusiast buyers, but they also make things like the X1. And like we said, it's on a front-wheel drive platform, which means the dynamics are just not the same.
It's sanitized. It is a little bit boring. But because it's kind of sanitized and a little bit boring, it also probably is the right option for the buyer that wants the BMW badge, but also wants fuel efficiency, room in the back, a good ride, kinds of things that people want out of their cars, they quietly want out of their cars. It's not the number one selling feature.
But the daily livability of it is really good, and it wears that BMW badge. And that's enough for a lot of buyers. And it's the most popular one. They sell more of those than they do of the other models. And complain as we may as enthusiasts who want BMW to continue being an enthusiast brand, they've got to sell cars to stay in business. So that's what the X1 is.
And that's not to say it's a bad car. It's just not a great BMW. But they've got the X2, which is much more compromised, sits lower to the ground, which makes you wonder why it's a crossover SUV at all. Really, it's a hot hatchback when you really break it down. But it's got this crazy turbo-charged 2-liter engine which has a ton of power. It's over 300 horsepower with a 2-liter turbocharged engine.
They don't offer that in the X1 because that's of the mainstream model. They offer it in the X2, and they also offer it in the Countryman with the John Cooper Works package. So if you are an enthusiast and you're looking for performance, you're probably not looking at the X1. You're looking at the X2 or the Countryman. Between those, the Countryman actually offers more space, more usability, better visibility.
And you get all the performance of the-- what is it-- X2 M35i? Is that what it is? X2 M35i?
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds about right.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. You get all the performance of the X2 with a little bit greater daily driving comfort out of the Countryman. And it's cheaper. The Countryman is less expensive with that big, powerful engine. So if I'm telling somebody which version they want and they're an enthusiast buyer, I'm probably telling them Countryman, specifically the John Cooper Works if you can stretch your budget there. But even the Cooper S is still pretty good with the turbocharged engine.
If you want a daily driver, either look at the standard Countryman, or if you can swing it, the X1. If really all you care about is style, and you want the coolest-looking version, maybe the X2 is for you.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I will go with the right brain or left brain, whatever side is which, the logical one. And I think I would probably end up with the X1 just because I think it's the best at being a small crossover, like an actual small crossover. You can definitely debate the merits of how BMW-worthy it is, which it's not super, to be honest.
But just from a looks perspective, the X2 is, I think, my favorite of the group. I actually had one about a year ago now, as I think about it. And I was able to get a car seat in there, and it was very tough. I had to really wedge it in. It's not a particularly practical vehicle.
It says something when there's a MINI in the discussion, and the MINI is more practical than you are. You know something's up there. But it's hard not to really just enjoy that lowered, sleek look. It's cool.
And I'll say this. You mentioned the how people-- go back to the Crosstrek. People wondered, hey, do people want this kind of a segment? And it turns out not only do they want that, but to me, these small crossovers are the natural successors to the smaller cars that we thought everyone was going to shift to in 2005, 2006 during fuel issues, and then the economy collapsed.
There was a thought at that time that we weren't going to drive SUVs anymore. We were just going to drive small cars because everything was going to be so awful that we couldn't afford to fill up our Navigators and Expeditions. So the thought was the Chevy Cruise, the Ford-- gosh, why am I blanking-- the Fiesta, the Focus. Those are the kind of cars that were going to save the world-- or the United States, anyway. And then that was it.
But immediately, to your point, when the Crosstreks emerged, it was like, OK, this small segment can be credible. And I think what you're seeing now is luxury makers are-- I think they've finally established critical mass there. And actually, they're doing a better job of getting their identity into these smaller vehicles.
And I think Mercedes is doing a little bit better of a job than BMW is. But I think that's also because Mercedes' image has always been luxury. You could put luxury in a lot of shapes and sizes. BMW has not always been luxury. They've been the ultimate driving machine, as you point out, which is great. And certainly, they've always been premium.
But it's like, well, OK. Your ethos aren't necessarily the fancy dashboard or the wood paneling or the wheels. It's that your car handles and steers and brakes better than the other guys. So I think that's, in some ways, a tougher hill to climb. And that's why I think this segment with the BMWs, we really get hot and bothered over, if you will, and fuss over it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Well, I think anytime an automaker adopts the branding where it is, quote unquote, the ultimate of something, they're setting themselves up for future disappointment when they're no longer the ultimate of whatever it was that they were striving for. And I think that's also an issue with Cadillac.
And how do you like that segue into the CT5 discussion? BMW is the ultimate driving machine. Cadillac, for a long time, was the standard of the world. And we still-- no one forgets that branding message when it's successful, as it was for BMW and Cadillac. They're setting themselves up on this pedestal-- BMW being the ultimate driving machine, Cadillac being the standard of the world.
Well, now that BMWs aren't necessarily the most fun vehicles to drive, they don't call themselves the ultimate driving machine anymore. They're still maybe the fastest. If you actually strap yourself into an M3 or M4 or M5 or whatever, the top-end badges, those cars are just ridiculously fast, faster than they even sound like they're going to be on paper.
I lapped the Portimao racetrack in Portugal in the M5 on that last lunch. And it's like we've hit insane speed. And to get them to go that fast, they actually have to dial some of the driving enjoyment out of it because you take all the nannies off, and you give someone ultimate control over the vehicle, unless they're Mario Andretti, they're not going to get the performance potential out of the vehicle that the computers can get. So they add the computers, the driving aides. They make the car ultimately faster but less interesting and less entertaining to drive.
Cadillac was the standard of the world. So in the 1920s, 1930s, you could argue after World War II back into the '50s, into the 1960s, they really were a standard-bearing brand because it was, cost is no object. What can we do to make this the most opulent, the most far-out-looking, the most desirable vehicle out there?
And they were able to hit that and capitalize on the market. Well, that just doesn't fly anymore in the world of Rolls-Royce and Bentley and some of those other brands. An American car company owned by General Motors can't go after that. You can't realistically, profitably go after that same buyer. And so they have to become much more mainstream, and they lose some of that cachet that they had when they were the standard of the world.
And that brings me to the CT5. I happen to be one of those people who really loved the last BTS, especially in its high-performance trims. It was unique. It stood out. It had that crisp, cool, chromed-out styling. It didn't look like anything else. And to me, it was better for it. But it never sold in the kind of numbers that Cadillac needed to be super profitable and take on the likes of Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz for the exact same buyer. They just weren't gathering market share the way that they needed to.
And so they come out with the CT5, which is more mainstream. It is less out there styling-wise. They're not currently going for the super crazy performance even though that kind of thing is coming. They had to make it more desirable to a larger swath of people in order to make this a successful product for them.
And so we get the CT5, which it's a really nice car. It drives really well. GM's Alpha platform is epically good. It's super stiff. Everything they build on it, especially in the current Alpha 2 iteration, is just-- I mean, the chassis is so good that it becomes clear General Motors has the engineering know-how to do whatever they want to do and do it really well.
I like the engine. I wish it was a little bit more powerful for the-- the version that I have is the V, the CT5-V. I wish that it had the V Sport, the CTS V-Sport engine, which was-- what, 420 horsepower, something like that. Yeah. I wish that they had just carried that engine over in the V, the mid-tier V.
Because in reality, the engine you're getting out of the CT5-V is the same engine in the CT5 Premium-- what is it, Premium Plus, whatever it is they call it-- the next rung down, the more luxury-oriented version. It's basically the exact same engine. There's a tiny bit of tuning difference. It gives it, like-- I don't know-- 10 more horsepower at the very high end of the rev range.
So yeah, I like the CT5 quite a bit. It's not at all what I would call the standard of the world. It's probably not even the standard in its own segment, but that doesn't mean it's not good. It is good. It's credible. I enjoy driving it. It doesn't put a foot wrong.
I know James had a big complaint about the driving, the ergonomic-- not the ergonomics, but the seat, dash, steering, and pedal arrangement. Did he talk about that in the podcast?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I mean, James is also a rather tall individual, although so are you, actually. You're over 6 foot. So I mean, it's--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I'm an inch and a half shorter than James, I think. But proportions-- he might have longer legs.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's true, yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Bigger feet or something. I don't know.
GREG MIGLIORE: There you go. There you go. Well, this is not where I thought the Cadillac discussion would go, comparing everybody's feet. I do think it's interesting where Cadillac is right now.
I like the new lineup of the CT4 and the CT5. I think they made a mistake by not fully explaining where-- how the new V series is going to be doled out. I think that could have headed off some of the consternation that people, especially enthusiasts, have felt. I think it makes a lot of sense to put V on other vehicles, the crossovers.
Mercedes and BMW are doing it successfully.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And Audi.
GREG MIGLIORE: And Audi, yeah. Audi, though-- I think you could argue AMG and M, maybe even V, are more than Audi as far as how they could get like their different sport things, particularly the RS.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And RS, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So I don't know. We did talk about this last week. I think the looks of the CT5 and CT4 are pretty good. I think they manage to capture this sporty yet elegant look that's interesting. And that's a way that I think Cadillac has been when it's been successful.
I'm realizing I have a 1953 Cadillac on my little workstation down here.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Pretty cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Actually, for some reason, I have the Hangouts blur on, so you can only see it--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I can see it when you hold it vertically now, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: There you go. But this isn't is as crazy as, say, the '59 Cadillac with those fins. And then this is more just an earlier, slightly rounder version of what we then saw 10 years later in the '60s-- the '62, '63, those Coupe de Vills. Even in the '70s, I thought the Cadillacs looked pretty good.
But they sort of morphed into land yachts. And then in the '90s, they got boring.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: They totally lost the plot.
GREG MIGLIORE: Big problem. So the state of Cadillac-- we could go off and on on it for a while. I think they have a lot of the ingredients. Let me put it that way. They just need to put it all together, and they need to market and try to win in a few segments. And I think the Escalade-- they're going to probably do very well there. Because the large SUV has never been a problem for them since they've had the Escalade.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Right. And I think they're doing cool things with the Escalade, like that-- it sounds insignificant, but that curved OLED dash is a thing of beauty when you see it in person, the way that the colors pop. It's like you walk into your Best Buy, and you see the LED TVs. And then there's the OLED, and you're like, holy crap. That is gorgeous. That's the same thing in the Cadillac Escalade.
I have some issues with Cadillac. And they're in a transitionary period. But the problem is, when was Cadillac not in a transitionary period? For as long as we've been--
GREG MIGLIORE: 1977 or something, you know?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. They're always-- they're going for the next wave of Cadillac, and they've never really perfected what they were currently trying to be before moving on to the next thing. And that's my knock with the CT5, is I-- and a lot of people are not going to agree with this, which is totally fine. But when I park the CT5 next to the previous gen CTS, I'd take the CTS.
It's more interesting. It stands out. And it's just-- it's different. And I think Cadillac needs to be different. I don't think that they can-- I don't think it's realistic to think that they are going to compete with Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz on equal footing without having something really interesting to show to draw people's attention.
And something like the CTS with its like crazy sharp angles did that, at least for me. And my big complaint about the CT5-V is it's just not enough. It needs more V. It's the diet V. And maybe it'll be enough for some people, but I don't think anything should have a V badge on it-- if they want to maintain the relevancy of the V, I don't think it should have a V badge on it if it's basically a warmed-over version of the lower-spec model.
And that's basically what the current CT5-V is. After driving it for a week, my opinion didn't really change from the first drive I did. It is good. The ride and handling is great. It's just missing that little special something that I feel like Cadillac really has to have if they want to conquest the European buyer, the European brand buyer.
And I think maybe if it would have had the 420-horse engine at a similar price point, that might have been the thing that set it apart. Because on paper, it does compete with the Audi S, the BMW lower-spec M and the lower-spec AMGs. It lines up power-wise, weight-wise. It's a little bit less expensive. But I think it needs to not just line up. It actually has to offer something better to attract buyers and get them to shop Cadillac instead of going to one of the European brands.
GREG MIGLIORE: And to your point too, not only does they have to compete-- you're talking about brands that are really good. And Cadillac has to beat them, give consumers a reason to shift. And I'm not sure these cars do unless you're already a Cadillac buyer who maybe wants this size car and this type of engine. And that's just your flavor of brandy, if you will.
The tricky part comes in too in the fact that there are no Blackwings out there yet. Had they had this holistic, end-to-end-- wow, I'm spouting cliches here-- approach, it would all make sense. You would be like, OK. Now, as it is, if you're a V buyer, you're like, wait. My V sedan has this much horsepower? What the hell, man?
So it's like-- I don't know. I think a lot of stuff got a little bit lost in translation here. When you're Cadillac right now, you need to try to clear this stuff up. I will say this too-- Cadillac isn't the great underdog. When they were the standard of the world, which they were for-- I don't know-- 50 years-- and then they definitely maintained that aura well past that-- that's what Cadillac knows how to be. I don't think they're good at being the scrappy underdog.
So I think that's tricky when you're trying to come up with a car. Oh, we're going to take down the Germans. Well, OK. That's good. But you're also Cadillac. You know? So I don't know.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: They need to embrace their Cadillas-ness. The Escalade is a huge money drawer for them. And if you're a religious "Autoblog Podcast" listener, you've heard me say this before. There's no reason that Cadillac shouldn't have three Escalades in their showrooms-- a small one, a medium one, and a big one. Because people buy them, and they like them.
That would bring them the cash, the influx of money and capital that they need for development that would make things like the CT5 and the CT5-V-- they could afford to put a little bit of edge on those instead of like having those be their mainstream cash cows and making money by volume. They could make a ton of money per vehicle on a line of Escalades, and I don't know why they don't do it. But whatever. I digress.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, the playbook is there with Lincoln. They've got the Navigator. They've got the Aviator. And these are rough-and-tough SUVs. And then they fill it out with the Nautilus and several other vehicles. Cadillac, I think, has done a pretty poor job of filling in the gaps with everything but the Escalade. The XT6-- people are like, well, what's that? And it just-- I don't know.
I think Cadillac has a lot of good-- like I said, good ingredients, individual good vehicles, good cars, things that are compelling on their own. But it's tough. And like I said, it's tough when you've got the standard of the world in your industry. People expect you to win. People don't expect you to be like, well, we're good in this segment. We're working on this one. You know? That's tough, you know?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And I think it'll be interesting to see how they transform, they transition into an electric-heavy brand. Because that's what the plan is, right? They're going to be GM's flagship electric marquee.
And when we talk about we're in a transitionary period right now, that's what we're talking about. They're transitioning. This is what they're offering right now. They're going to be the flagship electrified brand once that comes to fruition. We're not there yet. We're plugging gaps, and we're doing all the stuff that we need to do to maintain relevancy as that transformation happens.
GREG MIGLIORE: Speaking of electric cars, electric cars is perhaps the new performance segment, or a performance segment, a different kind of performance segment. The Lucid Air, the Tesla Model S Plaid-- love the name. Both are very impressive times at different tracks. Definitely check out these stories. We have them on the site. They went up mid to late September or late September. You can easily find them. Google them.
But the broader theme here is these are fast cars. You get instantaneous torque. Usually you get a very quiet experience. And they're coming from nontraditional brands. In this conversation, Tesla is the establishment, and then Lucid is almost the newcomer.
So my general thought is that this is a good thing. Since the start of this over 10 years ago when electrification was being used in a manner that was not for fuel economy-- it was to get more power-- I've been a huge supporter of it. You see it done in Formula One and other racing series. I think it needs development. And I think it makes for more direct technology transfer from racing programs to the street. And I think that's a good thing. These two cars look pretty fast, to put it simply.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. I mean, I'm honestly blown away by the performance of recent crop of-- or coming-soon electric vehicles. And let's be clear. Lucid is not a production vehicle right now. They're not an automaker that you can march out and go buy.
I feel like they're well on their way. I don't think they're vaporware. I'm not suggesting that. But we're talking about these things, and you've got to add that in there, that you can actually go out and buy a brand new Tesla right now. And that's not true of Lucid.
I don't think that that detracts from the achievement that a 9.245-second quarter mile at 157 miles per hour-- like, that is crazy fast. And it speaks to the potential of the electrification of the automobile. I wrote that story on Autoblog, and I was doing a little bit of research to round out the story.
And we're talking hyper-car performance out of basically a family sedan. I mean, it's not exactly. But 9.245 seconds faster than the Dodge Demon, which is a car that, when it came out, it was heralded as, OMG, this is the muscle car to end all muscle cars. They pulled out all the stops-- drag slits on the back, tiny, little skinny wheels up front, an air conditioning compressor that feeds cool air to the already-supercharged inner-cooled engine.
They did absolutely-- they stripped the interior out. They did absolutely everything that they could, and they got a 9.65 quarter mile. Barely repeatable-- 9.65 on a perfectly prepared track, on the absolute most perfect of all days with the best driver.
In reality, your typical person, Joe or Jeremy or Greg off the street, is going to hop into a Demon and be happy to turn something in the low 10s. Because it's not easy. You got to walk the car off the line. You got to feather it. You got to get on the gas just at the right time, or else you're going to burn the tires loose.
These Teslas and this Lucid that they're currently testing-- and it's headed for production-- it's almost like a gas and go kind of thing like. I mean, as much as we love shifting gears, every drag racer who's actually racing for money has gone with an automatic transmission for as long as I can remember. Power glides were the big thing in the '60s. That was how to get repeatable performance. The four-speed four on the floor is what sold in showrooms, and people wanted that on the street.
But when you're actually out there setting fast times drag racing, people use the power glides. People still use automatic transmissions to set their best, most repeatable times now. There's no shifting gears in these electric vehicles, even if they have multi-gear transmission. A few do. But it's just not a concern.
It's line up, hit the gas, let the electronics do their thing, and it takes off. And no one is-- to touch on BMW again, no one is calling these things the ultimate driving machines. That's not the point. They are just stinking fast at a drag strip. They get up and go like you wouldn't even believe.
Those stories you probably heard growing up, if you were in the muscle car scene, of someone would tape $100 bill to the dash, and take off, and say if you can reach it, you can have it. That's the kind of acceleration we're talking about out of these cars-- pin you back in your seat, whiplash, you better be wearing a helmet kind of acceleration.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting because when you look at specifically Tesla events, they don't just talk about-- Elon Musk doesn't just talk about the environmental benefits. He really talks about the performance. And I think that's an interesting touchstone for electric vehicles in general, is the sheer speed, velocity is baked into the cars-- on many of them, anyway. And you might think the typical Tesla buyer maybe wants it because, well, you're saving the world, or you're trying, you want an electric car.
But that's a hallmark. It's a pillar of their marketing. And I think that's brilliant, to be honest. I think that really-- it's like, you're not just getting a green car. You're getting a fast car. You're getting at least something that's aspiring to be the best car. Fit and finish, all sorts of things we can talk about, different quality issues with some of the newer carmakers, but not even for this discussion. If you get a Model S, it's fast as all heck. And that, to me, is a brilliant selling point. And I think it's cool that Elon Musk has really steered into that I mean.
I mean, I could talk on this forever, and we'll briefly touch on this a little bit here in a minute. But I think it's a good idea in many ways, if you can, to consider embracing an electric vehicle in your life, whether it's a hybrid or a full electric if you're into that, if you think that this could definitely solve some of the issues we're facing as a world.
But Tesla-- as you mentioned in these two timed runs, these cars are amazingly fast. You're not compromising. These are faster than most of the Cadillac V's, the AMGs. I mean, what is it--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: They're faster than all of them. They're faster than all-- when you're talking actual lap times and elapsed times, they're there faster than everything. I mean, they're faster than Demons.
GREG MIGLIORE: 1.9 seconds from the Plaid. That's unbelievable. That's like rocketship speeds, you know?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And not just in a straight line. The Plaid prototype has set a Laguna Seca lap record.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's amazing. What I think too is it speaks to-- again, I'll give more credit to Tesla that they thought, hey, let's get this thing to Laguna Seca. Let's get somebody who can drive the car and set a time. These aren't like-- I don't know-- the stereotypical people who are like the Prius buyer, if you will, who wants a slow appliance. Generally speaking, that is meant to be like draw it out.
But these are performance, luxury machines. So I think that's a really cool part of the green industry right now. And that's what gets me as excited as an enthusiast, and green car also enthusiast at times, you know?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. I feel similarly. We both grew up in a part of the country that is-- kind of hinges on the success of vehicles. And we both grew up with a passion for speed and muscle cars. We were always at the woodwork crews even before we covered it.
And that makes me excited. We're not just in the golden age of performance right now because of muscle cars and Challengers and muscle cars and Caramos and BMW M's and AMGs. We're in the golden age of performance because electricity is like starting to become established too. And that's why that's why Ford slapped the Mustang badge in the Mach-E. It's not just an efficient car. It's also going to be a fast one.
And speaking of efficiency, when I was doing some research for some of these stories, sometimes it's easy to forget how efficient these cars are. They're super, stupid fast. But what they do with the amount of energy available to them is incredible. We're talking about the size of battery packs. And the biggest battery packs there are in production vehicles are pushing-- what, like 100 kilowatt hours? Maybe not quite there yet, but close. That's like three gallons of gasoline, energy total, strict limit of how much energy can be stored in that.
They're getting hundreds of miles and setting these performance records with the energy equivalent of three, four maybe, gallons of gasoline. That's incredible. Credit where credit's due. Automakers like Tesla-- we give them grief for Musk spouting off his mouth when he should stay off Twitter. We give them grief for maybe not screwing their cars together as well as they should. But absolute kudos to them for upping the efficiency and performance game and setting a standard for other automakers to reach for.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well said. Well said. We'll close out the new segment and the podcast here with just a real quick lightning round California's ambitious goals. Basically, by 2035, new car sales will need to be zero emission. So I'll just kick it back to you. Do you think this is going to happen?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: No, not without caveats. I think the laws are probably going to be massaged. They're going to be altered and changed. There's probably going to be waivers. Are they going to hit-- are we looking, by 2035, that every new vehicle sold is going to be electric? I doubt it.
And I say that as someone recognizing that those kinds of moonshot things wouldn't be necessary if buyers would actually embrace what they need to do now. More new energy, electric vehicles, and hybrids are sold in California than anywhere else. But still, people are out there buying hugely inefficient vehicles because they like them.
And this is America. You can still do that. But that's why we have these moonshot things that by 2035, we need to be completely emissions-free to hit climate goals. If we all would embrace the efficient side of things for our daily driven transportation, these kinds of crazy-sounding, on the surface, proclamations like this one wouldn't even be necessary.
However, they are necessary. Climate change is real. The emissions issue is real. It has to be done. And in 2035, in reality, it's probably too late to hit the targets that we actually-- that science says we need to hit. Do I think it's going to happen? Probably not. Do I think it needs to happen? Absolutely.
GREG MIGLIORE: Wow. I like the nuanced position there. You were really nuanced, but very well reinforced. My take is it probably won't happen. I also think goals like this are necessary. I think it's good for government to be optimistic, if you will. I won't get political, but I think there's nothing wrong with having a stretch goal like that. Kennedy said let's go to the moon. This is not all that different.
To go back to some numbers, though, California is 11% of all new car sales, according to Reuters. And it's the world's fifth-largest economy. So if this does happen, holy cow, man. A lot of changes are going to be ahead.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. One thing I'll tag team on this discussion-- and I'm looking at the clock and realizing we're getting close to an hour, so I don't want to harp on this too much. But something that isn't widely reported on in Newsom's statement that that was going to happen is that's actually going to include off-highway vehicles as well.
So dirt bikes as you know them-- two-stroke, four-stroke, what have you-- banned, gone. ATVs, snowmobiles, side-by-sides-- those are all included in this zero emissions pledge. So this is a big deal. This is a major shift in thinking.
And if nothing else, it could potentially scare people that are on the fence when it comes to what their next new vehicle should be. Maybe it'll scare them into embracing the middle steps that will actually, by and large, make a difference leading up to 2035.
If people start looking at the smaller, more efficient engine option, if they start looking for-- I don't need a dually F-350. All I really need is the F-150 with the smaller turbocharged six-cylinder. Those are the kinds of changes that will-- if adopted en masse, can make a difference leading up to this 2035 end goal.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think carmakers are preparing for things like this. Cadillac has said that they plan to be substantially electric vehicles by 2030, I want to say. I mean, that's a pretty ambitious play. Granted, right now, they're more of a niche brand. But still, that's pretty ambitious.
So I think car companies expect more stuff like this to be coming. It's tricky when it comes to just-- you need a small crossover or a small sedan. It's got like a four-cylinder engine in it. It's 20 to 25 grand. I think that's where you're going to run into some practical implications.
Like, what do you tell XYZ person who just needs a relatively cheap new car to commute in-- that they have to drive an electric vehicle? And it's tough to put it all on the carmaker to try to make that affordable. I think there'll be, to your point, some tweaks, though. There'll be credits involved. There'll be-- I just feel like there's going to be ways this gets nuanced.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It'll be interesting. So many people would be driving things like the Chevy Volt, which is no longer, sadly-- so many people would be driving things like the Chevy Volt and the Toyota Prius Prime if they really looked at what they need and looked at it with even the slightest "I care about the environment" bent. They would have bought things like that instead of 3 Series and A4s and C Classes.
A Volt was more expensive than a Cruise, but it also got great gas mileage, and 90% of your driving was going to be done on electricity. And if those kinds of prospects would have taken off like a lot of us were hoping that they would when they were introduced, like I said earlier, these kinds of moonshots for electrification, maybe they wouldn't have come out quite so quickly, even though, in the end, I think electricity is going to win over internal combustion wholesale. But yeah, we're in a very, very interesting time covering the automotive industry right now.
GREG MIGLIORE: Good place to leave it. That's all the time we have this week on the "Autoblog Podcast." Be safe out there. Whether you're driving a V8 muscle car or an all-electric vehicle, I hope you enjoy the drive. And we'll see you next week. Take care, everybody.
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