In the first Autoblog Podcast of 2019, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Joel Stocksdale. They start off discussing cars they both drove, the 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid and 2019 Nissan Altima, and then the cars they'll be switching to over the weekend, the 2019 Audi A8L and 2019 BMW X4 xDrive30i. Following that is a quick preview of the Detroit Auto Show, and then helping a listener choose a new car in the "Spend My Money" segment.
Transcript[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Hello, and welcome to the "Autoblog" Podcast. Welcome to 2019. I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today in the studio is associate editor, Joel Stocksdale. Happy new year, welcome back. How's it going?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Going well, how about you?
GREG MIGLIORE: It's going good. I'm a little bit nasally. My sinuses have blown up. That can only mean one thing, it is the Detroit Auto Show. We're recording this on a Friday. All the good stuff is going to start happening over the weekend. So if you're listening to this, be sure to head back to Autoblog. We'll have all the great reveals next week, and some of the stuff that's going to come out over the weekend.
Lots of big reveals planned. We'll talk about that a little bit later, do a little bit of a preview. We'll lead things off, though, with what we've been driving, the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid, the Nissan Ultima. And then we'll dive a little bit into kind of our opinions, I'd say, of the Audi A8L, and what that big sedan, that flagship sedan segment means.
And I just got out of the BMW X4. I drove it into the office this morning. I'm going to talk a little bit about this sort of sport activity coupe kind of lifestyle vehicle. Lastly, we've got a really good spend your money, so you're going to want to hang around for that one. So let's jump right in, Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I liked it. What did you think?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I was really impressed. I think this may-- it's a contender for best small crossover, I think.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I agree. I think it looks like the Jeep Cherokee, though. Do you see that?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I get a little bit of that. It's got this kind of rugged, tough, active lifestyle kind of look to it. I mean, we didn't have this version, but the adventure version, which has the extra body cladding and kind of the Toyota truck look front bumper. It definitely has that sort of off-road personality to it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. So I spent the weekend driving it-- put a lot of miles on it. I think it's really an interesting option for people who want this compact crossover. I think it's technically a compact crossover. But it's a hybrid, so that's-- to me, Toyota is really checking all the boxes, meeting right the middle of the Venn diagram about where things are going. I really liked it.
I felt the backseat to be a little tight. That's not really indicative of the hybrid or the RAV4, even. That's just more like the class. Like I said, I think it looked pretty good. Even though I think it looks pretty Jeep-y, I think it might have just been that red paint is the one we had it in, which is like sort of the color you see a lot of Jeep Cherokees and Grand Cherokees in.
I enjoyed driving it. It handled pretty well. You can see out of it pretty well. The Toyota infotainment system's pretty good, I think. I didn't do anything super crazy. It didn't even snow when I had it, which was disappointing. I would have liked to have-- you know, you get a vehicle like that, and it's kind of like hey, let's get a little bit of snow. I mean, inevitably, you get a Mustang or something, and then hey, boom, the snow flies. But hey, that's life.
So I liked it. I think it really is like a smart move for Toyota to have this, add hybrid tech to the RAV4. And I like what they did with it too. I really go back to the design a little bit. I pulled up behind another RAV4-- the last gen, just the light-- on the way of the work. And I thought to myself, I really like this one a lot better. I like this kind of outdoorsy look.
The last one has more of a-- it's really a generic look. I don't really feel the outgoing model the last couple of generations. I think it speaks to Toyota taking some risks, which for years, people panned them for not doing that. So yeah, I dig it. I have one complaint, but what do you think? More impressions.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I completely agree. This is a way more interesting vehicle than the last one. Like you said, the last one was just-- it's just generic. It just looks like a crossover. I mean, if you don't if you didn't see the badges, you'd be hard pressed to even know what it was. But this one, it's angular. It's aggressive. It's wide. It actually looks pretty mean. But importantly, it's not just that. It actually drives pretty well. Like the steering is quick. It rides well. Visibility is fantastic.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's almost like a '90s car, or something with the thinner pillars. Yeah. I really dug that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I was actually impressed-- it feels fairly quick, too. I mean, it's not fast by any means, but it makes about 200 horsepower. I mean, that's pretty solid.
GREG MIGLIORE: First drive by James Rizwick, I believe, right? Yeah, he mentions that it's basically the sportiest of the RAV4 lineup, so I think that's cool. It's reasonably priced. The fuel economy is great. My combined rating is 39 MPG. That is solid.
Now, here's my one complaint. I do not feel like I got anywhere near 39 MPG. I didn't totally document it, but looking at roughly how far I went, and then how much fuel this thing holds, I did not approach that. So I mean, it's cold out. That could have factored into it. But I would like to-- before I give a real final verdict, I definitely want to do some more documented testing.
But just in my weekend, I was like, wow. This thing really drank half a tank of gas really quick it seemed. And I didn't go that far. So that was my one complaint.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I should have reset the fuel economy gauge before I was driving around a lot. But I felt like it was still doing decently. When I got it, it said average just shy of 30 miles per gallon. And in all my driving, it didn't really get any worse, and it did creep up a little bit. And I was mostly driving in town. So it felt decent. I think that still falls short of the EPA numbers, but it was all right anyway.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, and like I said, I didn't like document every exact mile, but--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, this is like very anecdotal, not even close to scientific.
GREG MIGLIORE: Right.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: One other thing I wanted to mention, though. I love the interior on this car.
GREG MIGLIORE: Totally agree.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's really stylish, and it's got really nice little details. I love the little spiral-- oh, what's the word-- like the spiral embossing on the rubberized knobs and stuff.
GREG MIGLIORE: I know what you're talking about, don't know what that word is though.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. It looks really cool, and it feels really nice and hefty when you grab it. And even the door grabs have this nice sort of grippy, tough, heavy rubber feel to it. It makes it all feel very rugged and solid and easy to clean. Although those little indents on the knobs-- I do kind of worry a little bit about stuff getting stuck in there over time. That's something that I was a little concerned about. But in the meantime, they are really nice.
GREG MIGLIORE: I eat a lot in cars, more than I probably should admit to. I didn't eat in this car. But yeah, that could be a problem with like a donut or something, not great. Bagel, salty bagel.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I also liked the little storage cubbies in the dashboard, and I liked the diamond kind of embossing in the plastics in those cubbies and on the speaker doors. Just a lot of really nice design details that show that Toyota like with an extra step to make the RAV4 kind of interesting and kind of cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the old RAV4's used to feel borderline cheap. I mean, they were a true compact SUV. This one feels more like-- I'll go there, I'll use the cliche-- a class above a little bit, maybe like a half a class above. But it's a very nice vehicle. I agree with you. The interior is very solid.
And I think it wins for its simplicity. Like there's a lot of just very simple, horizontal lines. You sit in it. You're comfortable. It's all laid out pretty well. The materials were pretty good. Yeah. That was the RAV4. RAV4 hybrid.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Before we take off from that, though, I do have a complaint myself about it. For the most part, I like all the controls. But it kind of annoyed me how small the buttons are for changing fan speed and changing which fans come on, and also the buttons for the shortcuts to home or radio, navigation, things like that. They're really small.
And especially on the infotainment, all of those little skinny buttons-- they're labeled just with words in all caps, all in the same color. So at a glance. It's kind of hard to tell exactly which button does what. So it would take a moment for my eyes to refocus from the road back to the buttons, and then to squint at these little bitty words to figure out what the buttons do. I think they should be a little bit bigger, maybe even use pictographs to make it obvious which buttons are which. But other than that, I really like the RAV4. It's a really good little crossover.
GREG MIGLIORE: I will pile on there and just say yeah, the buttons were a little small, a little hard to use. And then to go one step further, to reach out and get the different knobs, which I like to do with the-- especially with press cars, where you don't have time to set up all your presets. You know, I'm an average height. It's just-- couldn't quite comfortably reach everything. But hey, that's life.
But yeah, very strong car. We're going to do some driver's notes on that this month. We're going to rate it. So come back if you're thinking of buying a RAV4, specifically the RAV4 Hybrid. We spent a lot of time in it. Got to check it out.
So let's move on to the 2019 Nissan Altima. Good looking car, we had one in platinum trim. This had a 188 horsepower four cylinder course. They had the CVT. It was a very nice car. We had a little bit of a debate on Slack. Slack is our inner office, outer office communications channel. For those of you that maybe use it or don't know what it is, that's like a thing. Very modern America kind of communication.
I digress. But we were debating if it looked good or not. I know-- I think it was James Rizwick also was weighing and saying it kind of looks like a bunch of different concept cars cobbled together. I like it. I tweeted about it. I have written some notes on it. I think it looks great. I like the attitude, the front end too, where that V goes all the way to the ground.
I mean, there's no bumpers. It seems like on cars anymore, the weight-- like real bolted on bumpers anyway. It's all very integrated. The headlights look good. I will give you guys or some of the dissenters that the back gets a little bit busy, but I think that looks good. This is a segment right now where you're seeing tons of style layers, like layers upon layers of styling. And I think that's helped make these cars seem more premium than they are. And for the Ultima, I think it works.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I think I'm almost pretty much middle of the road on this, styling wise. I think it looks fine. I don't think it looks terrible. I don't know, I'm waffling a lot here. But basically, my problem with it is that the whole car looks pretty restrained, pretty conservative, except for like two main things.
And that's the really deep grill that you mentioned, and also the floating roof design, where the C pillar of the painted part comes up really sharply, kind of almost extreme, even more so than the Maxima, which is like a really swoopy looking large sedan. And I feel like those two really extreme design points look a little strange on a car that otherwise is very conservative. I don't think it looks terrible, but I do feel like there's a couple of things that aren't working together as well as they could be.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'd say it's an ambitious design too. Inside, it was pretty nice. I thought the inside was actually fairly simple, fairly basic compared to the outside, which has all these different things going on. But yeah, you can see out of it pretty good. Again, that was sort of the theme of the cars I drove this week.
Yeah, I thought the inside looked pretty good. I think it's a tough segment too, though. When I look at just the competitive set here, you've got the Accord, you've got the Mazda 6. I actually really like the Chevy Malibu too. I mean, there's a lot of cars in this segment that you can compare this with, and they're off fairly close.
I don't think there's like a car that segment that is truly bad, or I would say, ooh, I wouldn't go there. I mean, there's some that definitely rank farther down the food chain. But a lot are pretty good. And I would say this is not best in class. I think it's-- definitely put the Accord above it. I like how the Mazda drives quite a bit better. And then this kind of, I think, is in that sort of second tier of pretty good. You probably want to consider it.
Because people don't necessarily buy cars based on rankings. For a lot of people, cars are like an appliance. You look and it's like, well, my dishwasher's in the top five? Hey, that's good enough for me. I would put the Ultima in that top five-ish, as far as rating these.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think I feel pretty similarly. The interior-- I was a little bit underwhelmed. Considering that it was the Platinum, which is like right up there at the top of the Ultima food chain. The fake wood looks really fake. And besides that, there wasn't a whole lot that made it super fancy.
But what I did appreciate about it was that it was a very roomy interior. The driving position was really good. I love how simple and easy the controls were. And the knobs actually feel nice, almost a little bit Audi-like. It's got that kind of not quite mechanical sort of like click, click, click to the knobs. It feels really nice.
And all the buttons are just the right size. They're easy to use. The infotainment is pretty decent. Not the best, but it does all right. It does have CarPlay, which is something that Nissan is finally starting to add. I also mostly liked the way it drove. The chassis, I think, is excellent. It rides really, really smoothly. It's a very supple ride.
But it also-- it's a very eager chassis. Like if you start throwing it through corners, it responds really fast and is really stable. It's just a shame that the steering is pretty lifeless. That was my biggest complaint with it, was that the steering just-- it's not great. But the rest of it kind of made up for it, and I ended up quite liking it.
I do feel like it's not top of class also. I think Accord is probably best, probably right behind that Mazda 6 and Camry. But I would put this up like Malibu, which I actually like also-- I don't think it necessarily gets as much attention as it should. One of the things I like about the Malibu being that it's the most comfortable car in the segment.
That's something that I'm sure people are interested in, that that's part of the most comfortable one. But anyway, back to Altima. I think it's right there with Malibu. It's a great all arounder. It's comfortable. It actually handles pretty well. I mean, it's definitely worth checking out.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I agree with you. It's funny. I had my driver's notes in front of me, and then I lost them. So I was trying to dig through my Google Docs here trying to find them. Steering, spot on. I was kind of like almost all over the road with that car. The steering was so just loose. It was numb. I don't know. I really think they should tune that up a bit.
Comfortable car, though. Like you said, the suspension is pretty solid. It's pretty well calibrated, that sort of thing. I think Nissan is done enough to keep this car where it needs to be. For a while, I was reading-- like right before sedan started to drop, this was actually like the number three selling vehicle in America. Maybe it was the number three selling car. But this car had a really lofty position on the sales charts for a while.
And I think Nissan has done enough to keep it in a good place, keep it interesting too. So if you're in the market for a car like this, to your point, you should take a look at it. Because maybe the Mazda ends up being more to your taste. But also, Mazda's driving dynamics are not for everybody. They definitely skew more enthusiast.
Again, I think the Accord is just a great looking car. And overall, I think that is the segment leader right now. Ford Fusion is pretty good. I think that's pretty old, though. So I wouldn't put the Ultima behind it. That's for sure. Malibu is excellent. It's getting a little older too. The design, I think, of the Malibu is excellent though.
I think in some cases, that's a car Chevy hasn't gotten enough credit for. I think they launched it at the-- well, they launched it at the right time, but just the segment was starting to evaporate. And I believe they're killing that car this year. It's an interesting time for sedans, I think. Any final thoughts on the Ultima?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: One other thing that's worth noting is that this particular one was all wheel drive. That's a new feature for Ultima this year. And that would be a reason to check it out, because Accord doesn't offer that. So if you feel you do need all wheel drive, I mean, this is a good option with it.
Besides that, I mean, it's a solid car. It is also so much better than the old one. The old one was not good. I mean, it did the job. But pretty much everything else in the segment was better. This is finally competitive.
GREG MIGLIORE: The old one was one that actually sold very well too. I think this car is really good at being a sedan too. You mentioned all wheel drive. That's a really smart move, I think, as far as Nissan's product planning strategy, like get that in there. You're going to sell more of those in this part of the country, especially. And the backseat's big. The trunk is pretty big. This is like a car that-- it's a very solid sedan. Honestly, I don't know why consumers don't buy sedans as much anymore. But hey, it is what it is.
So that's it for the Ultima. Now, Joel and I have each just literally gotten out of two pretty interesting vehicles. Joel is in the A8 with the long wheelbase, which is a long car. And I just got out of the X4. I drove it to the office a few hours ago. I think both these vehicles are good for sort of discussion points, jumping off points for these segments. You mentioned a little bit earlier off microphone that you're not totally on board with the big flagship sedans anymore. Apparently, the A8L didn't change your thoughts.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: No. And actually, what's funny is that I think the A8L-- that's not easy to say fast.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's tough to say, right?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I think it may be my favorite of the three German cars at this point, at least to drive. It is extremely comfortable. It's extremely quiet. It's just a very solid heavy vehicle. And the interior is great. It's really cool. When you start it up, if you've got the climate control on, it hides away these panels that were covering up the air vents. They're like these nice wood panels, and they disappear into the dashboard. It's really stylish. And actually, you can get them to come back out if you turn off the air vent. It'll cover it up for you.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's pretty nifty.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. It's got two big touch screens that have a really neat feature that I like where it's a touch screen, but to actually open up a menu, you actually have to press down and get this fiscal click, which is nice if you're driving on a rough road or something. I've had situations where I'm just about to press something, there's a bump in the road, and I press the wrong thing. I'm like, come on. And so I'm gonna have to go back. So this prevents accidental clicks and things.
But the thing about like big, large flagship sedans that I'm not too keen on is that none of them are all that fun to drive. They really do sort of feel like they're trying to isolate you from everything possible, which I mean, I get that that's kind of the idea. But I'd like something that's a little bit more involving. Like this just feels like a really huge thing that I'm just kind of having to sit in for a while. I'm not being engaged at all. I feel like I'm waiting.
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a good line for the-- if we do some driver's notes or something. I just feel like I'm waiting in this car, you know?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. And like even having it in comfort mode. It's got this big forced induction V6 under the hood. But in comfort mode, the gas pedal is calibrated so that if you want to accelerate fast, you've got to really shove your foot in the throttle. Like just normal usage, it's super smooth and kind of slow.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'll watch out for that tonight, then. I'm driving the A8L tonight, as well.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, that changes if you put it dynamic, but yeah. I don't know. I don't find it that appealing to drive something that's just kind of big and heavy, doesn't handle all that great. It just kind of just feels like this isolation chamber. The one exception to all this is that I actually like the Cadillac CT6. And that's because that feels more like a sports sedan to me it. When you're driving it, it feels smaller and it feels more nimble. I like the way that drives. But S class 7 series A8, I'm just not big on them.
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting take. So I'll be driving the A8L. Now, I just like saying it. I'll be taking that tonight, so we might revisit this on the podcast next week. We'll see. But just kind of like a mini hot take here. To riff on that sedan segment, just for a little bit here. I have not driven the A8 in a while. It's not my favorite the class, though.
The S class is so luxurious and so decadent. And it's a good looking car. From a driver's perspective, I don't love it. I mean, but these are huge cars, to your point. I think the 7 series and the CT6 are probably the best driving cars in that class. I really like the CT6. That's a very fun car to drive. I haven't driven the one with the twin turbo V6, which is, I guess, get it while you can. They said it was going to be a Cadillac exclusive engine. I imagine they'll put that in something else. Seems like it would go great in the mid engine Corvette, right?
But yeah, I really like that car. And I do enjoy the 7 series. I drove that car on a track at Monticello in New York a few years back. It handles well. It steers well. I still feel like BMW does the best job of making whatever size car or SUV you have very like still connected, and having their genetics throughout the lineup. Whereas the A8 really-- the last time I drove one-- felt like a luxury barge. Whereas the rest of Audi's lineup-- even the A6 doesn't feel like that plotting, that slow, if you will. So I'll be interested to drive this one tonight, which is a very big car too.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. I actually drove it down into the garage yesterday. Yeah. And I pulled up to where I thought was kind of far enough in. And I hopped out and saw that there was probably like a fifth of the car still hanging out of the parking space, and so I started creeping it further and further up just to make sure that it's so big.
GREG MIGLIORE: Big car, big car. All right, so moving on to what I just got out of. I don't know. This is like a segment that has no name. It's like trading keys. But you're going to have the X4 this weekend. That's what I've been driving for the last two days. I know the like-- the sort of sport activities coupe segment is-- it's a bit controversial, I think less so. Like the X6 was the one that really sort of pioneered the segment.
X4, of course, was added, because everybody started buying X6's. Mercedes had to follow with the GLE and GLC coupes. But I like the X4. This is my random take here. I like the sort of coupe styling. I just like sort of this-- would you call it like a small-- I don't know if it's compact or not, but it's a smaller SUV. Although it's-- the X4 is still pretty big at this point.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think it is technically compact. I mean, sort of the way like RAV4 is technically compact. I mean, everything keeps getting bigger and bigger.
GREG MIGLIORE: The compact category is like a drinking game. Because when I think of what used to be compact, you're talking like a Ford Focus or something, like an older Ford Focus. Now it's like these things that are as big as midsize SUVs or crossovers five, six years ago are still compact. I digress. But X4 was fun to drive. This was the X30, so that's the four cylinder, I believe.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Six cylinder, or wait. Oh yeah, 30, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: 30's the four cylinder.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: 30 is the four cylinder. 40 is the six cylinder.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: They keep changing the names.
GREG MIGLIORE: They do, yeah. I was thinking out loud there. But engine was pretty peppy. One thing I like about basically all BMWs is you could use the sport eco pro comfort mode, and you notice a difference in the powertrain calibration depending on the car, like the M cars. There's a lot more differentiation. But the steering, braking, things like that. So I think that was cool.
Yeah, I just like driving this car. It's one of those things where I wouldn't call a guilty pleasure. I know if I were going to buy one, I wouldn't buy an X4 and an X6. You can't see out the back of these things. It's comical how bad the visibility is. And I actually think the car is beefy. And it also, I think-- what they've done is the X4 and the X6 used to look a bit different than the other X's, if you will.
Now, I feel like they've basically made it to like, we're just going to tailor the sizes of the BMW SUVs so they'll basically look the same, which I don't feel like this sort of severe coupe roofline is as present at least from a visual perspective as it used to be. And that's disappointing to me. I feel like this is-- X5, X3. I feel like these are all starting to look alike. I feel like the coupe part is fading a little bit to my eye. And that was, I'd say, my complaint about this.
I also think the interior, which I really liked, very comfortable. I liked the BMW infotainment. But I did feel like the door panels, the sides-- there's a lot of like bulky pieces and trim. And it's just to me, BMW used to be a bit more simple than this. So I got in there I'm like, wow. This is interesting. This car just feels like it's kind of coming at me a little bit more than Bimmers used to.
So I wouldn't say that's a good or a bad thing. It's just I thought wow, BMW's-- they're joining this craze of really layering on the style. So yeah, that's my hot take on it. You're going to drive it this weekend.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and I'm sure it's going to drive well. Because, I mean, I like the way the X3 drives. I was actually impressed with it. And that's significant too, because a lot of BMW's lately just haven't done it for me. Like they don't feel quite as connected and involving as they once were. So I'm sure it'll drive fine.
But I hate these coupe SUVs on principle. They drive me crazy. It's like it's taking the worst aspects of sedans and SUVs and combining them into one vehicle. It doesn't have the cargo carrying capacity of a real SUV. But it's just as heavy and thirsty and worse to drive as an SUV.
GREG MIGLIORE: Joel, you like to define your segments clearly, and I respect you for that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I guess one of the other things is that I feel almost like it's a little bit-- I don't know. I feel like I wouldn't be as upset if they like really committed to doing something kind of absurd. If it was an actual like two doors, super impractical kind of SUV, I might be onboard, just because like, listen.
GREG MIGLIORE: They call it a coupe, man. It's a coupe.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's got four doors and a hatchback. That's not a coupe. I don't know. If you're going to do something frankly, fairly stupid, commit to it and go all out. So on principle, it just annoys me. It feels like a compromise, and it's a compromise of the worst aspects of various vehicles. And that really bothers me.
GREG MIGLIORE: So what do you think the X2?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That, I don't mind as much.
GREG MIGLIORE: So that's a logical-- how do you like the X2 but hate the X4 and X6?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But the X2 actually has like a real hatchback to it. Basically, they just chopped the roofline of the X1, and also made the front end look more aggressive and stuff. I'm OK with them making a sporty looking hatchback. It's kind of like the difference between a Golf and a Scirocco. That, I'm OK with.
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting analogy to compare to BMW SUVs, but I see what you're saying.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I mean, because you've got the Golf, and then you've got the Scirocco, which is like the chopped, sleeker version of it. But in both cases, they still have a real hatchback and are mostly practical. Whereas the X4, the X6, they basically put a sedan body on a giant SUV. And then called it a coupe for some reason.
GREG MIGLIORE: I like the X2. I think that chopped look is sweet looking.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, the X2 is cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: To your point, the hatch is huge. I put a really big stroller back there. I mean, yeah, it's fine. I have no problem with any of the even numbered axes. I think we've established that. I like the odd styling. To go back to my earlier thought, though. The X4, I think. I guess I agree with you here. I think they should go further, go farther, like Ford says. You got to make these things true design statements.
Don't just be like, well, OK. This is an X5 or an X3 with a slightly different silhouette. When I'm looking at the body panels and stuff, I'm like, man. This is like-- the last generation X4 and X6, I feel like they just had a little more gravitas than these do. Maybe I'm seeing things that never were there in the first place. But it does feel to me like they toned this down.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and I mean, that's one of the other things that's nice about the X2 is that the X2 has its own unique front clip to it. Like the hood, the bumper, the lights, they're all different from the X1. The whole thing is one cohesive like redesign of that particular SUV, whereas with X4 and X6 it is the front end of an X3 or an X5, and then they gave it a sedan body.
GREG MIGLIORE: And I don't like the X1. That's one of the X's is I do not like. X1, no thank you. So I think that's-- we hit that actually harder than I thought we would. Yeah, I guess to sum up, Joel does not really like flagship sedans or the sport activity crossover segment. I do. That's where we left it, I guess.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, agree to disagree. And that's OK.
GREG MIGLIORE: I guess if we agreed, this would be a really boring podcast.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Probably.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. Detroit Auto Show?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Let's move on. Yeah, like I said, we are-- we're excited for this. This is our hometown show. We're recording on Friday. And if you're listening to this, the show starts essentially Sunday night. We're going to have a lot of reveals, embargoed materials that come up, come due at that point. Cadillac is revealing the XT6 on Sunday night.
And then Monday, it's just Super Bowl Monday. Reveal after reveal after reveal. A lot of people have been saying auto shows are dying. LA basically said, no, it's not. Here's the Jeep Gladiator and the new 911 and a bunch of other stuff. Detroit, I think, is still looking pretty strong. I think as we're approaching the actual show dates, we're seeing more and more about what's going to be there.
Yes, a lot of people have bailed. And I think because Detroit is the highest profile media show, those absences are more glaring. But in the past, car companies would pick and choose. Basically nobody goes to Chicago anymore. People would pick usually LA and/or New York. A lot of those reveals would be more like trim level models.
So Detroit just is basically, I think, in the spotlight, because it's gotten so much media attention. All that being said, this is going to be a pretty cool show. We're to see the Supra. We're to see the Explorer, which we've already seen. Why don't we start there? You went to an event on Wednesday. It was actually at Ford Field. That's where the Lions play football, not very well, I might add. But you got to see some Explorers on the field. Rear wheel drive. I think that's really interesting. Let's start there. Why did they go rear wheel drive?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, so some of the things that they mentioned that it's useful with making sure that it's got good toning capacity. It's dramatically improved over the previous version. The four cylinder, which is the base engine-- it now can tow up to 5,300 pounds, whereas the old one only towed up to 3,000 pounds.
And the four cylinder, it's the turbo charged 2.3 liter four cylinder, kind of like what you'll find Ford Ranger, Ford Mustang, that kind of thing. 300 horsepower, 310 pound feet of torque. So the four cylinder's no slouch. One of the other things that they noted with rear wheel drive was that they were actually able to get more interior space.
And the reason for that was it's a complicated thing, where they went to rear drive with longitudinal engine. That freed up space upfront, so that they could turn the front wheels tighter than normal. So they were able to lengthen the wheelbase without sacrificing too much in turning radius. And so by improving wheel base, then you've got more space for everything in the middle, which is the people and cargo.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a great explanation. I'll be curious what the take rate is, rear wheel drive versus-- are they calling it four wheel or all wheel drive?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It'll be all wheel drive, because it's a full time system.
GREG MIGLIORE: Gotcha. It'll be interesting to see what the take rate is for that. I'm intrigued. I think it's very evolutionary styling. Power trade is about-- we thought they were going to use that engine. But that'll be a one I'm looking forward to seeing on the show stand. I mean, like it, yea or nay? How you feeling about it?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I wish that they had been more adventurous with the styling. Because, I mean, this is such a radically different Explorer. I was kind of hoping for something that kind of announced that more. But at the same time, Explorer is their second best selling SUV. They don't want to mess with success. Clearly, the current Explorer speaks to customers. So I understand why they played it safe in that regard. I am excited about this rear drive layout.
GREG MIGLIORE: Can't wait to drive it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, it should make it pretty good. And what they've announced so far-- so that base engine is the turbo four cylinder. There's also on the platinum trim a twin turbo three liter V6 with--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's the Lincoln Continental twin turbo, right?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, it's detuned a little bit.
GREG MIGLIORE: I would hope so.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, it's-- I forget offhand. I think it's like right around 370, 380 horsepower. But yeah, I think it-- on paper, it should be a really good driving SUV. So I'm excited for it. Interior is a lot nicer too. And it's got a crazy optional touchscreen. It's 10 inches, and it's like this big monolith coming off of the dashboard.
GREG MIGLIORE: I kind of love where some of these touchscreens are going. Like the Volvo one, Tesla was the early adopter of that. I mean, it's just-- yeah, go with it. OK, so we would be remiss if we didn't mention the other Ford reveal, the Shelby GT500. We don't know much about that. It's going to be awesome, I would assume. I think the horsepower is-- whatever number they confirm for that, that's going to be great. I imagine fuel economy won't be very good.
My guess is this is going to be a fairly evolutionary styling. I think it'll look like the Mustang and like a Shelby GT500. I'm not expecting any crazy things that would really differentiate this car. I would assume there'll be a snake on the right or the left side of the grill. Yeah, I'm excited. It's been a long time since I drove the GT500. That's a magical car, I think.
Personally, I would probably get the GT350. I feel like that car is a little better balanced, a little calibrated better just in all areas. Man, the GT500's a rocket ship, though. The last time I drove one, it was awesome. I worked at a different car magazine, in fact. This was a while-- I remember accelerating onto a turn by old Tiger Stadium here in metro Detroit.
And I just like literally dropped into third and nailed it. And I remember everybody in the car was like, what are you doing? We're turning. You're accelerating into this crazy turn with this rocket ship of a car. So that sticks in my mind. I remember I actually took my grandmother for a ride in the GT500 and she was like, wow. This is wild. She was in her 90s at that point, so that's a lot of horsepower. She was unfazed. So a lot of good memories in the GT500. I'm super stoked about this one. I think this could be a contender for our best in show award.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, it should be crazy. I mean, it'll look like a Mustang, but just like super beefed up. And it should be really, really powerful. Ford has actually announced before this and like teasing it. It's going to be over 700 horsepower.
GREG MIGLIORE: Over 700, OK.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So it's going to be ridiculous.
GREG MIGLIORE: Hellcat 707. Demon's like what, 808?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The Demon on race gas is 840 horsepower. And then the Hellcat Redeye is 797 horsepower on pump gas.
GREG MIGLIORE: So the Mustang, though. Here's the other thing about the Mustang. They don't need to make this 900 horsepower. That's never when a Mustang is really bang. Anything over 700 is going to be more than enough, so it's going to be good.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think I'm with you. I think I would be more than happy with the GT350 or even just a Mustang GT. I mean, over 700 horsepower is pretty much useless on public roads. Although, I will admit I did love the Challenger Hellcat Redeye that we had. That was just silly fun.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that car is-- that's a strong car. I think I took my kid to daycare in that, if I'm remembering right. And it was like, what are you-- you pull up the daycare in that, and it's kind of like what's going on here? Where is this guy going next?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I took my dad for a ride on it and drove through the tunnels on 696.
GREG MIGLIORE: Good move, good move.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Oh, and the sound was just glorious. The blower line and the V8 rumble. And at the end of it, my dad was like, I think I just had a religious experience.
GREG MIGLIORE: So you know where you drive now is go underneath Cobo underneath the Joe Lewis Arena downtown where the auto show is. It's a very quick, short tunnel, but yeah. That's some-- you'll hear some cacophony there. You're going to hear some loud noises. Cool. So, yeah. Ford. We're excited about the new Mustang.
Let's talk about the Supra. Speaking of cars we're pretty psyched about. You and I we're talking about this. I think I had a recent podcast. They've got to show this thing. They're finally doing it, and we're pretty excited about it. Has been the longest tease ever.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. And that's why I'm actually not as excited about it, because I'm just like-- so I just recently watched "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" again, and there's like scenes in that movie where various cast members are like, get on with it. That's how I feel about this. It's like just get on with it. Just give us the car. We're sick of waiting. We're sick of teasers. Just give it to us. Which they are, but-- I've got some pent up frustration from this.
GREG MIGLIORE: You sound like you really-- you're like, hey, get this car now. It's been overdue. One of the early stories when I started at Autoblog was we were reading patents and trademarks, and they were doing that. And everybody's like, well, is the Supra coming back? And then it was like, fairly quickly, not like thereafter. Toyota kind of hinted it was coming back. And, you know, we're talking like four years ago now.
So all right, enough complaining about that. The car is going to be here in like 72 hours. I think this is going to really help Toyota really create some buzz around their brand. I think they're going to really rev up the enthusiast base in a way that Toyota could use right now. I think this is something that-- it'll be a shot in the arm for them.
And, I mean, pictures are floating around the internet. I think the car's already essentially out there. If you want to know what the Supra looks like, use Google and it's out there. So I mean, is this a car that you would be like-- want to buy though? Are you a Supra guy, Joel?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, see, this is the other part that's had me less than excited about it, is that, I mean, from the sound of it, there's not going to be a manual transmission. And it's going to use the engines from the Z4, none of which seem like super powerful. And I have this bad feeling that it's-- that the Supra is going to be really expensive. And I feel like that's an issue when you can buy Mustangs and Camaros for really cheap, and they're really good cars now.
I mean, it's not like when those things were more like just kind of traditional muscle cars that were a little bit hairy in corners and things. Like now, they do everything really well and for a cheap price. And so I don't know. I'm just not super enthused about this. I think it's going to look good. So that I like. But yeah, I'm worried that it's going to be underpowered, too expensive, and not with a manual transmission. And those are some pretty big negatives for a sports car in my book.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think probably they're taking a very practical look at it in this day and age and saying, well, even for sports cars, manual transmission take rate is declining. I think-- I agree with you. I think just for-- if you're good to do this car, why not put a manual in it? So there's that. I think it's going to look pretty good.
I'm excited about it because I am kind of a history, a heritage guy. When you bring back a name like Supra, I always think that's a good thing. But this is for me as far as how excited am I going to be about this car's existence. I think I'm going to have to drive it, and really see if this engine maybe is better than-- just in that execution than it sounds like on paper. Because cars could do that.
But yeah, and the price point is going to be really intriguing as well. Because you really can't-- the way this car is going to stack up, it's not going to be in this near premium level. It's going to compete against cars that you could get a lot of power and great handling for a pretty good deal. Toyota's got to watch it on that front. But overall, I'm pretty optimistic.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. The other thing for me is that in a lot of ways, I feel like I would be happier buying a Toyota 86 and modifying it a little bit. Because that-- it's going to be cheaper, for sure. And it's got a manual transmission. And I know it's a blast to drive. And the aftermarket is happy to help you out with like a supercharger or a turbocharger to get the horsepower up.
GREG MIGLIORE: So the thing about that too, though-- I think and this is where Supra wins consumers-- is it's just the Supra. The 86 is actually a great name in its own right, BRZ. These cars have been out there for like a decade now, almost. So if you're in the market for something like oh, man. What's that? Oh, that's the Supra. You get some serious curb appeal and bragging rights with the Supra, although your logical approach is entirely logical as well too.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. Well, like you said, though. I mean, it will probably come down to having to drive it. And for sure, there are cars that do not measure up on paper that when you actually get a chance to get behind the wheel make complete and total sense. So I hope that that's going to be the case. But I'm definitely skeptical.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let's move on a little bit here. We've got the Passat car that I don't think anybody feels crazy passionate about, but a very important car to debut next week. 2020, new Passat. It's a critical car for VW. They've teased it with the big wheels. That's about all we've seen of this car is the wheels.
But, again, by the time you're probably listening to this, this thing will be out there. Yeah, I don't know. Passat, important car. I will be interested to see how much of a design risk they take with it. But we're not expecting any like crazy power trains or wild new features.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's a sensible, mid-sized family sedan. I mean, it's not going to be crazy. But it will be a big deal for Volkswagen. I mean, last year looks like I'm still sold more sedans and they sold crossovers. So this is still an important car for them.
GREG MIGLIORE: Don't forget, too, that I think German brands like Volkswagen has a bit of a different positioning. Like a nicely styled Passat, I think, is a very reasonable alternative to say, stepping all the way up to Audi or a three series for like-- you know that sort of wonky, educated group that like-- they're not going to consider domestic, maybe Honda and Toyota and Nissan. Those brands aren't doing it for them.
Volkswagen Passat, that's not going to look out of place in certain neighborhoods. So I think that's a thing that Volkswagen has tried to do. They've made the Jetta, the Passat look increasingly swanky at times. Like really, I would say, even stepping on Audi's toes. But I would expect more of that for the Passat. You know, just keep pushing it up market.
OK, so a couple other things, the Lexus LC convertible "concept", air quotes, is going to be there. Pretty close to the final convertible though, from what we're thinking. I think it looks pretty good. The pictures we've seen, I think Lexus's styling has been very strong in recent years. Not exactly my cup of tea. You a Lexus man?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, I love a Lexus LC a whole lot. I love the V8. It sounds so good. It looks so good. I really, really, really, really, really like the LC. I'm conflicted about the convertible, because on the one hand, I love the idea of sunshine and open air and hearing that V8 even better. On the other hand, part of the appeal of the LC is its concept car looks and cutting the roof off of it. It still looks good, but I like the whole thing. So I'm conflicted. I think I have no problem with it. I think it looks good. I think I might still lean toward the coupe. I do like convertibles, but just in this particular case.
GREG MIGLIORE: I feel like the theme of this podcast is me saying, hey, I like this kind of wacky segment for no real reason, I just do. And you saying, well, no, no, no. This is how this segment should be, and this is how-- this is the purest take. But I agree with you. The coupe is definitely a dramatic-- like it really makes a statement. When you decapitate the roof, it kind of breaks up the flow. I don't know. I think this is-- you know, this is going to be a good looking car, fun to drive.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, like I said. I mean, I'm conflicted because I think it would be a blast to drive that in the open air and listening to that wonderful, wonderful V8. But I also know that that thing was such a styling sensation that I hate to see it cut up. So I'm just internally conflicted.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, get to the show next week, and we'll see where you land for the final, I guess, verdict, and then you can drive it too. Subaru is bringing a limited edition STI. They call it the S209. That's pretty cool, actually. It's kind of like sort of an unexpected fun little limited edition model to really toss out. I'm more of a WRX guy. I feel like the STI is just a bit much. But this is sweet. I think this is pretty cool. We don't know too much about it. But we know it's happening.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, And it's nice that Subaru is giving us one of its super limited edition hardcore STIs. Because usually, those are kept like just for Japan. So it's nice that we're getting in on the fun. I am with you, though. On a normal basis, I would probably be a lot happier with just a regular WRX.
GREG MIGLIORE: This one is going to be a step above, we think, the type RA, which is also pretty extreme. So Subaru's doing a lot of good things right now. They're playing to their base, like the really hardcore Subaru wrists, I guess. And they're doing some good things getting up in with the [INAUDIBLE] SUV. And, of course, Outback and Forester are pretty strong too. So yeah. This is, to me, is just sort of like, we've got all these big picture initiatives. But we're going to kind of put a little exclamation point over here. And I think it's a good move.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, I mean, Subaru just keeps setting sales records left and right. I mean, they've got money to do a limited run special edition car with hopefully, more power. So on that note, if anybody from Subaru is listening, could you please give the BRZ some more power next time you do a special edition?
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. All right, let's spend some money. It's always good time to spend some money. So this comes from Justin in the Washington DC area. About to replace his daily driver. He's got an F82 M4. He's had this since 2016. And he's basically looking at this as a replacement car. He's got some interesting observations here. This is a great email, but I will sum it up a little bit.
And the options he's considering seriously, AMG C63 S and the E53 coupe. He hasn't driven the E53, but he's already specced it out how he wants it. The way he figures it is that's going to come out to be about six grand more than the C63 S, which is how he would take that flavor of brandy, if you will. So those are his, I would say, his two top concerns. Justin, this is a great email. For the purposes of time, we won't read all of, you know, the different nuances. But yeah, you know your cars, man. What do you think, Joel?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: This is a tricky choice. I guess I'll start it out by saying, I do really love the straight six in the new E53. It's so silky smooth, and it sounds so good when you get on it. It's got this kind of high pitched like straight six howl. It's really exciting. But it is a very smooth-- it's a very, very smooth engine. And I really like the sort of like ultra mild hybrid system in it, the way it coasts and things.
It's perfectly seamless. It's really nice. I will admit, though. If you're really missing-- because he mentions that he had an older M5 with the twin turbo V8. And I'll admit, if you're really hankering for the V8 life again, I kind of feel like you've got to go with the C63 S. Because as much as I love the straight six in the E53, it's still not a V8. I mean, there is just something special about a V8.
I guess the other thing that's tricky is that because you do mention that you do want kind of a mileage muncher, the E coupe is probably a little bit more comfortable. But at the same time-- OK, yeah. I'm going to say go for the C63 S. Because it's going to be a lot-- it's going to be way more comfortable than your M4. He's got an M4 right now.
And I totally agree. The M4, that's a stiff, tough, like sport-- like that thing is designed for one thing only. It's to go really fast on tracks and things. The C63 S is going to be way more compliant. I mean, Mercedes in general. They're usually a lot more comfortable. I'm going to say go for the C63 S. No straight six is going to replace the V8 feeling, and this will still be more comfortable.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's basically where I landed on this, as well. And just kind of like reading, Justin, some of your preferences here about your-- you know, the way you're leaning on the power train, and also kind of like leaning towards a C63 S as far as the styling. I mean, the only downside to getting the C car is it's a little bit smaller. I mean, to me, it's not like you get a ton of practical usability with an E class, a hot rod E class in coupe form, anyway.
So I agree with you guys. A C63 S, good looking car, powerful. I think it might be kind of the way Justin's leaning anyway. So I guess I'm going to sort of validate that leaning, if you will. First of all, I don't think you're going to go really wrong with either one of these. But you know, V8, man. It's tough to replace that.
Reese Counts speaks very highly of that inline six. That may be like his favorite engine. He cannot stop talking about it. And it is a really good engine. But I just think for what you're looking to do in this car, the C63 S is the way to go.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I think like the E Class coupe, I love that engine so much, and it is comfortable. I think it wouldn't be as sporty as what you're accustomed to at this point. Because, I mean, it is-- it's a little bit AMG, but not like full AMG. The C63 S, that's full AMG. It's got the big V8. It's going to be tuned to be closer to a sports car, but still softer than a BMW. So I think that is the best way to go. I think, though, this is definitely one of those where you're definitely going to want to test drive both of them.
GREG MIGLIORE: That'll be a fun day. Definitely go do that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But yeah, I think we're in agreement. C63 S is the way to go. I mean, no straight six as good as it is can quite replace a V8.
GREG MIGLIORE: I also think the Mercedes styling is probably best reflected in the C class. I think that car just looks a little more elegant and sporty than the E Class does, regardless of what trim or what you know dressing is on it, or the power train. So that's my just like sort of Mercedes bias right now, is I really like the C class as opposed to some of the bigger cars in the lineup.
So yeah, man. I think we've got the verdict, C63 S. Justin, great letter, thanks for writing. Thanks to everybody for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the "Autoblog" podcast. Come back next week for all the latest and greatest news from the Detroit Auto Show. It's January, happy new year. We'll see you next time.
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