Nissan Titan Pro-4X, Hyundai Kona and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV

In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Consumer Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski and Senior Editor, Green, John Beltz Snyder. They talk about cars they've driven recently, including the 2020 Nissan Titan Pro-4X, Hyundai Kona and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Then they talk news, starting with Volvo's new pick-up and drop-off service. Then they talk about Q1 U.S. sales figures. Lastly, they discuss the possibility of new styles of motorcycle from Harley-Davidson, including a flat-track bike and a cafe racer.

Transcript

[THEME MUSIC]

GREG MIGLIORE: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today on the phones, consumer editor Jeremy Korzeniewski-- what's up man.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Hey, everybody. I'm doing all right. You?

GREG MIGLIORE: Doing pretty well. And on my other line here, senior editor for All Things Green, John Snyder, from his basement, I believe.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I just got done streaming for the Autoblog Twitch stream, which was fun. Learning how to play Rocket League. But yeah, so here I am.

GREG MIGLIORE: I-- I got to do that too some day. I was watching the stream, just right on the home page. Looked pretty fun. So--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: Maybe next week--

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It looked like-- it looks like the world's hardest game to me whenever I watch it.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's tough, yeah. It's-- and then everyone else is so good.

[CHUCKLES]

Including Eric.

GREG MIGLIORE: That's why I have been reticent to jump in, is I'm pretty terrible at video games. My proficiency has dropped off since, like, basically, like, NHL hockey and some of those college football games, around the turn of the century. Like, my skills have not advanced since then. So these new games, man, it-- it would be messy for me. But I'm going to give it-- gonna give it a go one of these days, that's for sure.

We got a great show for you today. We've been driving some cars, having some fun. Yeah, I spent some time in the Hyundai Kona, which is interesting. The one I drove was pretty high-spec, the ultimate all-wheel drive, lots of stuff on there. We'll get into that.

John, you've been-- you've been trucking in the Nissan Titan Pro-4X. Which--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yes, I have.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, man. That's-- that's the way to spend quarantine, I guess, is you got to haul all your supplies and dry goods in that thing, on and offroad.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah. It was pretty fun. Looked good in the driveway too.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Did you haul--

GREG MIGLIORE: Driveway tests.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: How much toilet paper can you fit in-- in the bed?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Zero. That's a trick question, because there is none available.

GREG MIGLIORE: Ooh, that's right. Chicken and the egg question. And then, ironically-- we didn't plan this-- Jeremy actually went on both of the launches for these vehicles. So he can chime in on that, tell us, maybe give us some stories about what it was like when we could travel.

And what else? You drove the Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, which is kind of cool, I think. So yeah, we'll talk about that.

We'll hit some of the news. Sales are down, as you might not be surprised. Volvo's got this valet service that I think is kind of neat. We'll bat that around. Harley is talking about doing cafe racers and stuff like that.

So I don't know, just some interesting stuff. We're not-- you know, we'll talk a bit about, like, the, you know, the automakers and the ventilators situation too, just because, you know, that's what's going on, kind of break some of that down.

But yeah, then we'll just kind of close it out with, you know, what we've been up to, that sort of thing, Autoblog on quarantine if you will.

Anyways, let's jump right in. So you didn't haul toilet paper, but what did you do with this Nissan, John?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I basically just-- I had it right before things started really getting locked down. So I-- I just sort of drove it to get groceries. Just kind of went on some drives with it. But Yeah, I actually liked it more than I thought I would. It's not a big difference from the model year before. But they did they did refresh the Titan.

And the Pro-4X package, it comes equipped with-- with a lot of stuff. You know, it has the Bilstein shocks, rear diff lock, things like that. And it actually feels pretty capable. But I really liked the-- the V8 and nine-speed automatic transmission in it. It has a-- it has a 5.6 liter V8, 400 horsepower 413 pound feet of torque. And it goes-- it goes to a nine-speed-- a new nine-speed automatic transmission.

When I drove the same engine in the Nissan Armada recently, it kind of felt doggish. But that was in the old seven-speed auto. In this nine-speed, it really feels eager to-- to hold onto gears, you know, way up to the-- close to the red line. And every time you shift, it's like it's geared more for performance, which probably hurts fuel consumption a little bit. But you never find it hunting around. You might find it-- if you're idling along, and then you decide to floor it, you might find it hesitate just a little bit. But for-- for the most part, it's not doing that at all. It's-- that-- that was my favorite part about-- about the Titan.

But then, yeah, the ride on this, you know, offroad package is actually not bad. It's stiff, but you know, it soaks up-- when you're driving over potholes, it's got such huge-- huge rubber and that-- that nice suspension. It just clears everything without a problem, without sending a lot of motion into the cabin. So yeah, it was-- it was actually pretty fun to drive around. And you know, in two-wheel drive. It was happy to spin the tires. That-- that torque comes on pretty quickly.

But, yeah, I enjoyed it. It has some-- it kind of looks-- some things about it from the exterior look a little goofy. Inside, it can feel a little bit old. But there's enough going on there that, you know, if you can get past some of the things-- when I think of trucks, you know, I think of chrome and-- but you know, some of these offroad versions don't have a lot of that. They're sort of dialed back, blacked out. And this one has a lot of black-- black across the grille, black-- it's black on black in lots of places, including the interior.

And it looks sporty. But it might not be everyone's cup of tea. If you can get over it, or if you actually enjoy that, pretty enjoyable truck.

GREG MIGLIORE: I think the-- the Titan's in kind of an interesting place. I think its struggles, no matter sort of what Nissan does to it, to have it break in among sort of the-- the top four, if you will, domestic trucks. So I guess my question for you is, would you put it ahead of the Tundra right now?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Maybe. I mean, especially if you're looking at, like, the-- the Pro-4X versus the TRD Pro, this is still even-- it starts a little cheaper. It starts a little cheaper than a lot of the competition, which I thought was interesting.

I don't know. My pick would be-- I would get a Ram Rebel. That would be the one I would want. That's just such an excellent truck. It'd be hard to justify getting this over-- over that. But you know, the-- the Tundra sells more than twice what the Titan's been selling. Maybe that will change with this refresh a little bit. But it's sort of a niche truck. And it serves its purpose. And I'd be-- I'd be happy living with it, yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: Cool.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I have some thoughts on the Titan. I'll just interject if that's OK, everybody.

GREG MIGLIORE: By all means.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Absolutely.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. So the Titan is such a strange-- such a strange thing to me. Like, several years back--

GREG MIGLIORE: That'd be a great subhead for the story, right? It's such a strange

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Such a strange thing. Yeah, just because when they came out with this truck several years back, the latest version of it-- so I'm not talking the first-gen Titan, the second-gen, when they split it into the regular and then the XD, so extra-duty, what have you-- you know, like, they seem to have done a really good job looking at the market and seeing where they could potentially grab some sales. They-- they were after this extra-duty, you know, like, light-duty-plus, but not all the way up to heavy-duty.

And they-- they had some-- some great ideas there, and some really good engineering to back up what they were talking about. They-- like, for instance, you know, you get into a big heavy-duty pickup truck from one of the American manufacturers, and the-- the greater their capabilities, the more irritating they are to live with on a daily basis. So you drive down a road full of potholes or a bumpy driveway, or something like that, and you're just being thrown all over the place. I mean, the head toss in those things is just actually ridiculous.

And it has to be, because they've got these massive springs, and shocks, and frames. And they weigh as much as your house does, because they've got to be able to pull all that weight, or haul that much weight.

So-- so Nissan wanted to do this thing where they could kind of elevate the light-duty pickup truck-- so, say, the Ford-- you know, the segment defined by the Ford F-150. Give it a little bit of extra capabilities without killing the passengers inside. So you can use this thing as a daily-driven passenger truck.

That sounds like a really, really great idea on paper. In execution, they didn't really hit their targets. Because while it was significantly easier to ride with, and felt comfortable towing a load-- you know, based on the size of its brakes, its beefy chassis, beefy driveline parts, and low-RPM power of its V8 engines, gas and diesel-- it felt great towing, but its maximum capabilities, both payload and towing, weren't even best in the light-duty segment. They were bested by various versions of the Ford F-150.

So you know, if you're spec-sheet shopping, that's a fail. And that's going to knock it out of people's contention anyway. And when you're coming from underdog status like Nissan, going up against these very well-- like well-defined bogies, like the Ford, Ram, and General Motors Chevy and GMC pickup trucks, with a huge, loyal customer base, and against Toyota, which also, you know, already has that, like, stunning reputation for reliability and durability, you've really-- you know, you can't just have a good idea. You've really got to execute on it. And that's where Nissan failed with the Titan.

So this latest one, they-- it's almost like they've seen their-- their misstep here, and are course-correcting. They dropped the availability of the Cummins V8 diesel engine. They're going with a better version of their-- their gasoline V8. They've made some legit significant improvements in the truck.

And I'm say-- saying this not having actually driven it yet. So I reserve judgment until I actually get behind the wheel and drive it. But it doesn't make any more sense still. You-- you've got to get in that truck, and drive it, and significant-- and like it significantly better than any of its competitors to make that choice. You're not going to do it based on specs. So you're going to be doing it based on either price, brand preference, or because you just like it better after taking it for a test drive.

Taking all those thoughts into consideration, no matter how good of a truck it is, it's not going to be a massive sales success. It just isn't. There's-- I don't see any-- any, like, end result where we're going to look back and say, like, man, I can't believe Nissan's done so well with their new Titan. You know? Like, regardless of the fact that-- that, as John says, you know, it looks good, it's got power, it's got-- it's imposing. But you could say most those things about its competitors too. Like, how many of us would go to a Nissan dealership and choose a Titan over a Ram, or an F-150, or a, you know, Sierra, or something else like that? I mean, I just don't see this making huge waves in the marketplace.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think I-- something you said earlier, Jeremy, kind of-- kind of resonates with me. I remember, like, the way Nissan sort of tried to almost create this, like, "full size and a half", you know, segment. It's not like a full heavy-duty, but you know, certain versions of the Titan, you know, are-- you know, just they're a little bigger, a little more capable in some ways than just a straight-up full-sized truck.

So it's an interesting, like, I think strategy. Do I think it's really going to, like, get them where they want to go? I don't think so. I-- I don't blame them for trying, just because, you know, the way Detroit just owns the truck market, you know, it-- you got to try something new. You can't just go straight ahead, you know, and try a traditional tactic and hope you're going to win. Because frankly you probably never will. You know, I mean, we see upsets in all sorts of areas of life. So who knows. But I mean, it's-- it's very tough to beat, you know, someone or something that's very good at what it does and isn't giving any ground. So I mean, I applaud the tactic, but--

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, totally. And remember, too, these things are-- they're, like, they're rolling profit margins. Like, so much money is made on these things by the car companies. Nissan absolutely has to try.

You mentioned I-- I went on the launch. And-- and not to-- not to bore everybody with details. But what I expected was that they they came out with this-- with this Titan XD. And I expected them to pull the same trick that the domestic manufacturers do, and every year, slightly increase the payload in towing capabilities through little tweaks here and there. And I figured that within a couple years, they would get this scenario figured out, they would get it all sorted so that it was the leader in every one of those segments.

Then I thought, OK, they're going to have something here. You know, turn up the turbo charger boost a little bit from Cummins. Upsize the brakes a little bit more. Like, you know, do-- do something with the chassis or transmission. You know, whatever it is that-- that caused it not to lead in whatever-- whatever segment.

They never did. They-- they put all their eggs in this basket. The basket wasn't big enough. They never enlarged the basket. I'm not surprised that they kind of abandoned that-- that attempt and are going with something more mainstream now.

GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. Anything else, dude, with the Titan, John, that-- interesting? Did your son Wally like it?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, he loved it. Of course he did. It's a truck.

[CHUCKLES]

GREG MIGLIORE: Right, yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, we-- I don't know, I just gave him some rides around the driveway in it. And yeah, he was-- he was checking it out. He thought it was-- he thought was really, really cool actually. I don't know. It was sort of the sand-- sandy gray color with, you know, these black-- blacked-out grill and this black panel across the back. So it kind of looks badass if a little bit goofy. But you know, from the side profile, it's got that-- that regular full-size truck look to it. And you know, it's sort of jacked up a little bit. And yeah, he's like, does this have the offroad package? I'm like, yeah, bud, it sure does.

And yeah, we were both sort of geeking out over it, over certain things about it. And there's-- there are things that I like about it. You know, it was-- the way certain things are placed-- I really like the Fender sound system. I'm not really much of an audiophile. But this has a Fender Soundsystem, which I don't think of as, like, you know, a high-grade, you know, audio system. I had a Fender guitar, and it was a piece of crap.

But yeah, I was-- I was checking it out. And-- and things actually sounded really good. You could turn stuff up really loud in there, and-- and have it all come through really clear across the range without speakers rattling and things like that. Yeah, there-- there were some things I really liked about it. And yeah, of course my son loved it. And we're all little boys at heart when it comes to these things. It's never-- never a bad thing to have a truck in the driveway.

GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. Sounds fun. Speaking of fun, I spent some time this week in the Hyundai Kona. It's-- this one was painted lime green. The title-- or the-- the paint color was something really cool. It was something like "lime green with a twist" or something. It sounded kind of like a gin and tonic or something that I could really go for.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: So it was a fun little kind of hatch crossover thing. We tested it in our small compact comparison last fall, I think. And I think you guys were both there as I think back to this. And I remember this-- this one had it's, like, supporters. You know, like, there were some people--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I was one of them. I wanted it to win.

GREG MIGLIORE: You wanted it to win? OK.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: How come? Real quick.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I just thought it was-- it did everything really well. It was-- it was the best well-rounded package, and it was super fun. It was powerful. The thing-- the biggest problem with it, I think, is-- is the use of space, especially in the back, the backseat and-- and sort of the cargo area.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that hatch is really-- it's, like, sort of tall, but still just really small back there.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: But other than that, it's comfortable, it's sporty. I like the looks. I know you were not a fan of some of that plastic cladding. I was able to look over that. In general, yeah, I really liked it a lot. A lot of really good technology in it. I remember really liking the-- the-- you know, head-up display, and all the things it displayed on there. And how all the driver-assist functions worked. And the infotainment works great. I just-- I just think it's a really well-rounded vehicle.

And man, I am a sucker for that electric Kona. I-- I just think that-- that is a knockout. Yeah. I would-- would totally buy one of those. But yeah, I'm a big fan of Kona.

GREG MIGLIORE: It actually came in second in the test, at 78.9 points. Boy, we were really precise last fall, weren't we? It was actually-- all three were very close. We did a compare-- oh, in the spring, the mid-sized truck. And there was some, like, variance, if you will, among the scores. Some were pretty close, but then--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, the top two were super close, [INAUDIBLE].

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it was like half a point, or a point and a half. But yeah, these, we all-- which, maybe in this segment, that's sort of to be expected. You're not going to get blown away by any one subcompact crossover.

But I mean, basically, you know, it was fun to drive this thing around. I, you know, took it to the pharmacy, which is one of the places you're allowed to go, if you will, under lockdown. And it was fun just kind of being out on the road. I took this kind of wooded area. Drove-- just drove it around a little bit.

And you know, it's-- I think it's one of the better dynamic cars among the ones we tested, and then just in that class. I thought the brakes were pretty dialed in. Like, they were, like-- maybe it's just literally I haven't driven anything in quite some time that I was like, oh, this-- this Hyundai is amazing.

But it was fun to drive. The steering is really good. Sport mode, I think, kind of stiffens things up a little bit. Again, the brakes are good. There's not a lot of, like, pedal travel. It's like you get that bike pretty quick on.

In some ways-- I'd be interested to hear what you guys think-- I almost think this is, like, a good little hatch. And trying to even act like it's a crossover by wrapping that, like, crappy plastic stuff on it, to me, that's just like you're-- just whatever. You're-- you're being a poser. You're being a pretender. Whatever.

I get it that crossovers are all shapes and sizes. And people, if you call it a crossover, you're going to sell more of them than if you call it a hatchback. I get all these things.

But I think this is a really good little hatch actually. Take the plastic off. Give me some more sheet metal. It looks pretty good. And it drives pretty well. I mean, you know, again, that 1.6 liter, pretty impressive. All-wheel drive. So I used the cliche it handled like a top.

You know, it's turbo too. We should mention that. I think that's pretty neat.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --rails.

GREG MIGLIORE: Like rails, but a zippy, peppy, torquester. 195 pound feet of torque, if you will. And this one, what I think is pretty neat, is it has the dual clutch transmission, which I don't know why they call it the EcoShift. I assume it saves me some sort of a rounding error fuel economy or something. But you don't expect the dual clutch in this segment and in this type of vehicle, I guess, if you will.

So again, I came away pretty impressed. It was all those things were my expectations were kind of in the middle. It was like, oh, hey, this is-- this is pretty good. The interior had a lot of that lime green kind of neon stitching.

Yeah, it was fun to drive, I thought. I mean, I think-- I don't exactly remember how my voting broke down for this last fall when we did this. I feel like I was more of a Kia Soul and a Jeep Renegade supporter in the field, which also included the Honda HRV and-- and of course the Kona. That was the four we tested.

But yeah, I don't know. I-- I think it's interesting. I think it's really-- not everybody, probably not even most people in this segment are going to go with the Kona. They're going to probably, like, stay conservative and go with the-- the Honda. Or maybe they'll, like, spend a little more money, and, like, look at the Jeep, just because you get that design play.

We rated the Soul the best, which is how we felt at that moment in time. And, you know, I stand by that. But you know, again, I sort of kind of had my eyes open to the Kona. I-- I liked it more than I did last fall.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I like the Kona. I-- you know, I think what held the Kona back in our voting was it had just a tiny little cargo area and a pretty uncomfortable back seat for a few adults. If it weren't for that, then I think it probably would have taken the victory. You know, like, if-- if your idea of-- of having a quote, unquote, crossover-- and Greg made a good case as to why it's more a hatchback than a crossover-- but if your idea of a crossover has to include all-wheel drive, then Kona is-- is a great bet.

We voted the Soul a little bit higher because it has a similar drivetrain, similar engine. The-- Kia's version has a little bit more power. But you can't really tell back to back. And it had a little bit more technology inside. Like, those Kia screens are pretty impressive. Couple that with a more comfortable back seat for some adults, and-- and more cargo area, and the practicality of it won out.

If I were buying, I would buy a Kona over a Soul for the option of having all-wheel drive. I'd also consider a Jeep Renegade. Because, you know, I'm a Jeep guy. And it's a-- you know, I like the way it looks. And it's nice and roomy inside as well.

But yeah, the-- driving a Kona, it's-- it's almost, if you close your eyes and throw it around a twisty road, you can almost convince yourself in-- you're in, like, a hot hatch lite, with the amount of power, with the road holding that it's got.

It's a really fun little car. And it's something that if you don't need a ton of room in it, it's one of those vehicles I'd recommend.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, when we did that test, I-- I thought you know, it probably handled the best, except for maybe the Honda handled really well. But the-- the Kona had the-- the guts to back it up too. So it's really fun to, you know, throw it through these long sweeping corners, you know, downhill.

[CHUCKLES]

It was-- it was a joy. It was it was a blast to drive. Yeah, and it-- you know, you could spin the tires away from a stop. It was sort of, yeah, a hot hatch almost, a hot hatch lite is a-- yeah, that's a good way to put it, Jeremy.

GREG MIGLIORE: I would compare it almost-- like, this is cheesy, but you know when you go to Taco Bell, and they have, like, the spicy sauces, and then, like, the mild sauces, and then they have, like, a weird one. Like, its below-- it's positioned to be, like, medium, but it's, like, just, like, whatever they're having that month.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's like a green sauce.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, the salsa verde or something. And it's not-- yeah, it's just like that medium-spicy hatch thing.

And so yeah, I-- I like the Kona. It felt-- like I said, it felt really good to drive. And the only thing-- and this is of all vehicles in the segment-- $30,380, it's the ultimate trim level, all-wheel drive. Again, it's got the upgraded powertrain. I think for-- if I was going to spend a little over $30,000, I'd-- I'd definitely go with a more basic vehicle in a-- like, a larger segment.

I know not everybody needs like a big vehicle. So maybe you're like, hey, I want to pay for something smaller. This would be an awesome city car, I think, if you lived in, like, Montreal, or Chicago, New York. New York's really congested. But, like, you know, like, sort of like big downtowns where you can still do a little bit of driving. Yeah, I mean, to me, like, that's where this thing really has a great purpose. I mean, again, fun to drive, definitely one of the better-driving cars in that segment.

Yeah, it's very interesting too. Every time I drive a Hyundai, I'm never bored. I mean, not usually bored. There's always something about them that's like, oh, they tried this, or, oh, hey, seven-speed dual clutch. That's interesting. You know, I mean, they, like-- they take risks.

So I-- you know, maybe on a upcoming podcast, we should do, like, some sort of brand rating list. I've been kicking around this idea in my head. And I haven't quite, you know, figured out how to execute it, if you will. Maybe a post for the site even. But it just seems like, when you look at, like, the strengths of the Hyundai brand, it's that they don't play it safe. You know, look at the Sonata, look at the Elantra. Like, you know, they go for it. I think that's cool.

So yeah, that was my time in the Kona. And-- side note-- I actually drove the Renegade, not this one, but a little while ago back. So I'm, like, reliving the-- like, our fall crossover test, just in my own daily life.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Did your votes change any after spending a week in them?

GREG MIGLIORE: I think I was harder on the-- well, eh, I was-- like, I supported the Soul winning. I don't remember how my scores broke down exactly, but I definitely supported the Soul winning. And then I was kind of like-- and I thought the Honda was a pretty clear fourth. I thought just with the powertrain and, like, the-- the infotainment. Like, there were some pretty big drawbacks there, that unless you really wanted a Honda, buying it really wasn't a good option. You know, again, unless you really want a Honda. You wanted-- like, you're a brand loyalist. You wanted the design, because it's, I think, a good-looking car.

But then these two, the Jeep and the Hyundai, were, like, right in between for me. Like, I could have flip-flopped their order. But as I've spent some time in them, I could almost see reasons to push them to the top. I think the Kona was one of those things where, like, if you added it all up, I could have seen it sort of leapfrogging the Soul in some ways.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Yeah, I think it was-- on my-- on my personal voting sheet, I-- I think I had the Kona in number one spot. And the-- and the Kia and the Jeep were pretty close. But, you know, I dinged-- I dinged the Soul for not offering all-wheel drive. You know, if there was an all-wheel drive option on the Soul, you know, it-- it would've scored more points for me. And I still scored it well, because it's a fun little car to drive. You know, it's another one of those little hot hatch lites, if you will.

GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. So--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It doesn't handle quite as well as the Kona though.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: No, I like the handling of the Kona better, too. And-- and that's funny because the Kona has a more comfortable ride also. The-- the Soul is a little bit flinty. Like, you know, flinty is another one of those weird little buzzwords that automotive journalists use. And I don't know why. I don't even know what flinty means exactly, other than, like, a little bit oddly stiff. And that doesn't translate into greater road holding. So yeah, give me the Kona's smoother, softer, better-controlled ride with its ability to carve up twisties.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I thought this one-- again, to, like, sort of why it's not a crossover, this one felt fairly planted, and almost, like, low to the ground. So yeah, pretty good.

Flinty? Yeah, I'm with you there, Jeremy. You ever read, like, a car review sometimes, and you're like, what the hell does that even mean? You know, like, there's words in there that, like, we do a pretty good job about getting them out. But I mean, we all are prone to do this stuff. You're like, what? What even does that mean, you know? Like, I don't know. I was dropping the cliches earlier, so.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I try not to do it. But every once in a while, it's just like-- I think, for-- for those of us who grew up reading car magazines, it's, like, become-- like, some of these terms have just become part of our daily lexicon. And we use them without even thinking of it. Because, like, we know what it means in our head, even if it's an ambiguous term with no real meaning.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, there's-- there's lots of words like that, that-- you know, and when I come across them, I always enjoy reading them, because it's a fresh way to-- to express something, that maybe I don't, you know, have a concrete grasp of what that means, but I get what they're trying to say.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I was just reading something the other day. And I don't even remember who it was, so I couldn't call out our competitor even if I wanted to, which I don't. But someone was talking about the-- the well-damped volume knob in-- in a car. And I was like, a well-damped volume knob, you know, that's a handful of words that you could just remove from a story and not lose anything.

Like, no one who is reading this is thinking, like, oh, it's got a really well-damped volume knob? Suddenly that vehicle's jumped up in my internal ratings. I better take that car for a test drive.

GREG MIGLIORE: They're using, like, a suspension analogy to describe a piece of the infotainment?

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, so, I mean, I get what they're saying. You know, sometimes you get into a car, and you spin the volume knob, and it goes, like, can when you really wanted to go three. Or it's-- or it's, like, really hard to turn. And you're like, well, that's oddly turned. And so a, quote, unquote, well-damped volume knob, I guess, turns, or has detents at the proper-- you know, with the proper amount of force that you were expecting. I just don't think anyone cares.

GREG MIGLIORE: You know what, I-- I'm looking. I just googled that phrase. And I'm seeing a lot of-- you know, it's-- it's an audiophile sort of term, maybe. Like people who, like, build their own audio equipment, like, are concerned about knob-damping.

[CHUCKLES]

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Yeah. How-- what about the button on the steering wheel? Does the button on the steering wheel have a proper detent for my thumb when I'm clicking up on the volume? Like, I don't know. Whatever. I'm-- I'm going to digress there.

GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting. Now I'm starting to think of, like, different pieces of, like, audio equipment. You know, everything from-- my parents used to have this really old, like, stereo that was as big as, like, a table. It literally looked like an altar. That would be the best analogy of it. It was, like, this long rectangle thing. And I would have to say the knobs were probably pretty well-damped.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Maybe I'm not giving this enough credit.

GREG MIGLIORE: 1970s audio equipment, man. They knew how to do, like, tactile feedback I guess.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. I want to know about the tubes in my car's radio. You know, how-- how are they tubes? How do they hum. At what frequency?

GREG MIGLIORE: Well, all right, on that note, how was this Mitsubishi plug-in hybrid thing you drove? Was it well-damped?

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It had very well-damped volume knobs, I can tell you. No, it-- you know, I think the Outlander doesn't get a lot of respect from-- from most of us in the industry. You know, it's like-- it's one of those vehicles that we know it exists. And, like, I mean, not-- not to be too harsh, but I think typically how you could describe the Outlander is-- you know, it's-- it's a crossover that sells based on the fact that it is not objectionable-looking, it is very well-priced, and offers a third row in a segment that most of its competitors don't.

So, like, it's got a reason to exist, you know. And-- and Mitsubishi's warranty is stellar. So let's not-- not overlook that. And they'll lend money to nearly anyone. And not casting judgment by saying that, but if you're in the market for a new car and you've got bad credit, you know, your chances of getting a loan through Mitsubishi are better than through Honda for-- you know, for whatever.

Anyway, I get it. The PHE-- PHEV version is a completely different animal, though. It offers something that is kind of sort of unique, for now, in-- in the American marketplace. And it doesn't go very far on a full charge. I should have looked it up before I started talking about it. Anyone know off the top of their head what the electric-only range is on the Outlander PHEV?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I think it's like 22 miles maybe.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: 22. You are correct. Exactly 22 miles. And I was-- I was getting something in the 20s, depending on how I drove and what roads I was on. 22 miles is not a lot. You know, it's a very small amount. There-- there is a subset of the American population who commutes less than that on a daily basis to the office. Or most of the United States who's not commuting to an office right now, doesn't use any gas, I suppose, when they're on coronavirus lockdown.

I typically drive further than 22 miles, because I live in a pretty distant suburb from the big city. But I still got just stellar gas mileage out of it. That-- taking that 22 miles out of your daily drive every single day, even though you start to use gas after that, you don't use a whole lot. You end up using just, like, you know, a quarter of a tank over the course of an entire week.

So, you know, it-- it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. Getting back to car review terminology that we use, things like driving dynamics, you know, blah blah blah, it-- no, it doesn't have great driving dynamics. Its steering feels like a video game. The infotainment feels like-- I mean, I don't even know. You struggle to call it infotainment, because it's so far behind the times. It's got this, like, glossy, hard plastic cover over the infotainment that, you know, just-- everything just looks so far behind the times.

But I mean, I actually-- I actually really enjoyed having it. Like, I like plugging my car in when-- when I get home and when I get the chance to do it. I searched out parking spots that were close to or in front of free charging stations. There's a Whole Foods near me. There's some-- some big parking areas that have free charging.

And you know, it changed my routine enough that I would park there, plug in, walk around, do my shopping, look at my-- at my watch, and say, like, oh, you know, I could run into this store for a few minutes or something like that. And you know, that maybe sounds-- sounds a little bit irritating, like it was changing my-- my routine. But I didn't have to do it. It's got a gas engine. It'll run. I was doing it because I wanted to. I wanted to maximize the electric range. And I like driving using electricity as opposed to fossil fuels.

So I really enjoyed having it for a week. It's not a vehicle that I'd recommend to a whole lot of people. But if you're-- and I wish that-- I really wish that it did have the option for a third row in the PHE-- PHEV version. That would kind of be, like, a little bit of a killer for a lot more buyers. Like, you know, a lot of people just, when they're doing their car shopping, they mark-- the mark checkbox, "third row." And so it's not even going to come up in a lot of people's searches, even-- even if it really might work for them anyway. But you know, I guess there's someplace they got to put the battery, and wiring, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But anyway, I like the car. You guys have driven it before? John, have you driven that?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I was on the launch for it, actually. And I-- I liked it. I mean, it sort of wins by default because there's-- there's just not a lot in that category with a-- with a plug that's affordable.

But despite that, I still thought it was a decent vehicle. It didn't blow my mind or anything. But you know, it was pretty well-rounded. And you know, that-- that range is-- it's decent. 22 isn't bad when you're comparing it to-- to other cars its size.

But yeah, I thought it had its charms. And you know, every time I see one, I geek out pretty hard. I'm always looking for the decals. Did yours have the PHEV decals on it?

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I think-- I sent it back a little while ago. I'm not looking at it right now. So I don't-- I believe that it did. A little-- it was dark gray, and I think it had, like, bluish-color PHEV decals.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I love that stuff. But yeah, I thought it was-- it was pretty good. Roomy, certainly, like, you know, comfortable enough.

You know, it-- nothing-- it didn't do anything particularly great. That's OK, because it doesn't cost a great amount.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: But yeah, it-- we actually drove it-- Mitsubishi got special permission to drive them on Catalina Island in California.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh, fun.

GREG MIGLIORE: Very cool.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: So we-- we drove around there a little bit, which was beautiful. But you know, we were driving on some really rocky, dusty, steep trails. And it was just humming along just fine. And there's-- yeah, there's a good amount of room for stuff.

It's not the best-looking car. But a lot of things in that segment kind of really aren't. But like I said, it just-- it just offers, you know, what people want to buy. It just happens to be a Mitsubishi.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, and you know, it's got all-wheel drive. Which, you know, even a lot of people, again, that's one of those things where they're like, yeah, I have to have all-wheel drive. So here's a plug-in that's got all-wheel drive. And it's got a bunch of room in the back.

So yeah, the most irritating thing about it, I'll say, to me at least, was the steering. I drove it a couple hundred miles in-- in one sitting at one point. And on the highway, it's like constant correction to keep it, you know, centered in your lane the way that you want. Like, it does not have that-- you know, the kind of steering that knows exactly what straight ahead is.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So you're kind of constantly having to-- you know, there's no weighting right dead forward. So, like, it veers back and forth. It's-- it's one of those things that, by the end of the week, I was completely used to, like, muscle memory, making the tiny little corrections driving forward. No one can see the-- the little gestures that I'm making right now as I'm pretending to drive it.

But yeah, you know, it's like one of those little quirks of-- that you get used to. I have an old 1975 Volkswagen camper van. And, like, you've got to go, like, an entire quarter-turn of the steering wheel to register any change. So we're not talking anything like that terrible. But that did bug me. Like, the steering on it-- it's electric power steering-- like, needs a major revision. But you know, I'm hoping that they-- they stick with it.

I actually think the Outlander is a pretty good-looking car. I think, you know, it's mostly unobtrusive. But they've given it some cool chrome accents up front that, you know, kind of makes it into, like, kind of like a Japanese samurai face mask kind of front look. I think it's kind of neat.

So yeah, anyway, that's a very long-winded way of saying I like it. I get it. If you're interested in that kind and style of vehicle-- vehicle, take it for a test drive and see if you think you might like it.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Mm-hmm. I think that's totally fair. That's exactly-- yeah, I wouldn't turn anyone away from it for sure. And you know, if-- if you're looking for specific boxes to be checked, that might be, you know, your only choice.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, it might be your best option.

GREG MIGLIORE: I was trying to figure out if I had in fact driven this. So I was doing some background googling here. And on podcast-- so 539, you and me, John, actually talked about it fairly extensively. We had one in May of 2018. Actually it was probably more like April of 2018 if we were talking about it on the-- the May 3 published podcast.

But yeah, apparently we had one in the office. I kind of remember driving it. Obviously this was over two years ago, and a lot has happened since then. But I-- if I recall, I remember liking it. I remember thinking-- like, Mitsubishi, and I think a lot of these sort of brands that have, like, small presences, I mean, you know, you don't have to be GM, or Toyota, or Volkswagen. You know, find one or two segments. Make something that works that meets people's needs. Make it either awesome and expensive, or pretty good and affordable, and put it out there.

You know, I would say that about Mitsubishi. I think anytime you involve electric propulsion, that can be a great place. If you can somehow either make it yourself or partner with somebody to get in there. You know, Tesla's sort of that analogy or that example writ large. But I mean, Peugeot has talked about coming back to the US, to really go off on a tangent. Yeah, man, make a French car. I bet you there's some people that might be into it.

So I mean, that's just kind of my, like, random thoughts on where, you know, the Outlander plug-in fits in the whole scheme of things. But I think there's a place for it. And you know, again, if they can, like, sort of, you know, make this thing, and make what they're doing competitive, I think, in some ways, Mitsubishi, like, you know, who knows, they could, like, win some-- you know, win some buyers.

And I think, you know, we joke a little bit about, like, a Mitsubishi, like, the brand awareness, and, like, perception probably isn't all that great. But in some places it is. You know, on the West Coast, Mitsubishi, like, has more of a following, you know, than perhaps it does, you know, on the East Coast or the Midwest, something like that, or the South.

But you know, there's-- there are markets where I think certain brands can win. So--

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And a Mitsubishi actually-- and not that we need to talk about Mitsubishi forever, but Mitsubishi has a-- like, a solid history of car-making. They've won Dakar.

GREG MIGLIORE: Evo.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I-- yeah, the Evolution-- the Montero. I used to own a Montero, a early-2000s Montero, seven-passenger four-- four-wheel drive. That car was awesome. Like, you know, people would come up to it and they're like, what the heck is that? Because not many people-- you know, they didn't sell, like, tons of them. But they got in, and everybody liked that car. Like, there was-- it was super solid. It could drive through literally anything. And yeah, I mean, Mitsubishi knows how to make good cars, you know? So don't-- don't discount it just because it's a Mitsubishi, I guess is the point.

GREG MIGLIORE: That's funny. I remember going to the bar in graduate school, in one of those old Fronteros. And there were a million people in there. And yeah, I totally forgot that car existed until, like, Jeremy, you put that image back in my head.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: [CHUCKLES]

Yeah. Dakar-winning Mitsubishi Montero.

GREG MIGLIORE: Montero. What did I say, Frontero?

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Ah, that's OK. Sounds the same.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I'm going to start mixing up that Simpson's SUV. Yeah, the Montero. Jeez, yes, this is the vehicle. That's crazy.

OK, we're really going down rabbit holes. Let's talk some news. Doo doo doo, here we go.

Yeah, I mean, so a bunch of different things kind of going on this week. One thing I thought just was-- this was super random and interesting, but Volvo is rolling out this valet concierge service that-- I mean essentially it's pickup, delivery, loaner.

Which they-- Volvo has been trying to do stuff like this, just to, like, you know, come up with different ways to meet their consumers where they are. You know, I think they're more flexible and nimble. They don't have a huge existing dealer network. So they try some things. And I don't know, you know, our subhead here is that this is perfect for the coronavirus era. Oh, great, we're in an era now. OK. That's the first time I've seen that put that way, but I guess it's probably true.

I think stuff like this could really work. I think we're going to start entering, like, you know, just this, like, totally new way to rethink the dealership model and to rethink the service model.

So I could get on board with this. You know, Lincoln has tried things like this. Yeah, I don't know. We don't have to belabor this. But I thought it was an interesting news note. And I think Volvo is a brand that can probably make some hay with it.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: For sure. And when you look at, you know, the changes that have been happening, like with Tesla and buying your vehicles online, this is this isn't too-- this isn't as big of a step as that, even. But it makes sense for certain car companies, I think, especially if you're a luxury brand or if you're a smaller brand that maybe doesn't have a ton of service centers, and you want to provide, you know, sort of this concierge service to your customers, where you can pick up their car from work, and-- and leave them a loaner, and they don't have to, you know, take time out of their day. They don't have to take off work to go get their car serviced.

I was talking to Henrik Fisker a couple of years ago about his plans for-- for his cars. And-- and this was one of the things that he was going to do, was to have basically a concierge service for, you know, when your car needs service, it will tell Fisker, and they can send someone to pick it up, whether you're at your house or at work, and then have it serviced by this sort of growing third-party service called The Hybrid Shop, that's now like the hybrid and EV shop, that-- that's done a lot of work on-- on hybrids. But it's just sort of an easy way to put customers at ease, and make it sort of a seamless experience for them without having to take a bunch of time out of the day.

Especially, you know, if you have-- you know, if you ever had an experience where you take something in under warranty, and something-- something breaks. And then, you know, the minute you get your car back, something else is broken. And you have to go back, like, the next day or the next week. And you know, it can become really, really frustrating. And it can turn you off from a brand or from a dealership.

If you can downplay that-- that negative experience, and you know, minimize the downtime, and minimize the time out of the person's life that it takes to get something fixed, you know, you're going to have just a better overall image of your car, and its reliability, and of the company that's taking care of you.

GREG MIGLIORE: I think it could be a reason too why you might want to step up to, like, you know, either a premium or a true luxury vehicle if you have the means. Because, so we have a GMC that needs an oil change, and it actually now has a recall out for it. Now, we literally haven't gone anywhere basically in a few weeks. So I'm not in a huge rush to worry about these things. You know, the oil change just came up, and the recall is like-- it's actually a seat belt, which is not great. But you know, you just move the car seat to the other seat belt, and it's-- it's OK.

So these aren't, like, super-pressing matters. But if somebody could just say, hey, we're going to come get it. We're going to leave you, you know, another vehicle. And then we'll bring it back. And you tell us when's good for you, or this is the window we can do it in, heck yeah. I-- I'd definitely sign up for that. I might even pay more for it. I don't know.

Just because, like, to me, the last few times I've actually gone to dealerships-- and it does vary by brand and by dealer, 100%. It's just-- it's a pain. It's a cattle call sometimes. You know, you gotta-- it's tough to get in there regardless of your work schedule. You know, especially if you have a lot of different things going on. Like, there's never a good time to get your car fixed.

So anything like this that I think, you know, could become more common, I would love to see. You know, and I think it doesn't need a-- like, a pandemic to make this happen. Some of these are things that it seems like, you know, it would be great to see them happening already.

So yeah, I mean, we'll see. I think sometimes when there are crises like this, things that we take for granted or just assumed-- our assumptions, like, everything gets questioned. And you're like, OK, well wait, maybe it doesn't have to be that way. Or it can't be that way anymore. Because I don't know people who want to go sit in the dealership lobby for two hours while, you know, they're getting their brakes fixed, and worry about who's coughing on you next to you. So I mean, these things could, you know, be helpful in times like this, and then going forward.

Cool. A couple other things-- sales are down, speaking of coronavirus. Yeah, I don't think anybody didn't expect this, that's for sure. You got to check out the story on our site. Associate editor Byron Hurd is following it. He's actually been updating the story, like, almost every half hour as the sales roll in. Some of the numbers are actually not as bad as you might expect, which is interesting. The Chevy Bolt sales were up 36.1%, which is interesting.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: There you go. People need electrics. I thought it was interesting, too, that GM sales were only down 7.1% in the first quarter. That's actually not that bad. I mean, 7% is a pretty big drop. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not terrible. That's just like a clunker of a month. But then when you really put it into full context, and GM doesn't put out its sales monthly anymore. They do it by quarter, which some might argue is more accurate. This quarter is going to be crazy.

You could probably guess that they had a pretty normal January and February, maybe even the first week of March. And then they-- they and probably almost everybody else sold about zero cars for the last 2 and 1/2 weeks. And that's probably where you get to see some of these, like, you know, selling figures come in. Second quarter's probably going to be ugly. And then we'll see what maybe the third and fourth quarter start to look like for all brands. But that's--

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Totally.

GREG MIGLIORE: --that's what we're seeing right now.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I mean, you can't think of a-- a lot of scenarios where people are going to be, you know, rushing out of their house when their state governors and the federal government is telling them to stay at home-- rushing out their house to buy a car.

The-- the only, like, outlying situations I can imagine is someone's lease is up. So you know, they've got to take their car back, and they got to end up with something new. I'm sure there's still a certain amount of people that are going out and getting into car accidents, and having to replace a vehicle for that reason.

But you're absolutely right-- what we're looking at for most of the big car companies are quarterly numbers. General Motors, Ford, FCA, they all do that-- they're done that way. The Toyota, Nissan, Honda, they-- they're still doing theirs on a monthly basis. But, you know, I expect that to eventually change, and everything will be quarterly soon.

So yeah, we're seeing the-- the very tail end of this quarter is where the downturn really was going to happen. So I think April sales are going to be even worse, I would guess. And it'll be interesting, as Greg was alluding to, to see what the next-- like, second-quarter 2020 sales are going to look like, because they're starting off on a bad foot right now. And we're still in this point where we don't know how long this kind of quarantine, shelter-in-place kind of lifestyle is going-- going to happen. Is it going to end at the-- at the end of April? Is it going to keep going into May?

And summer months are, you know, typically a time when a lot of people are-- are doing some car shopping. It's nice out. People are walking the lot, seeing what's-- what's news, seeing what's out there.

So yeah, it's going to be a wait-and-see kind of thing to see what the next sales report looks like. I think it's probably going to be a little bit worse than the one we're looking at now, which is already kind of bad. But the hope, then, would be that there will be a rebound in the second half of the year, third and fourth quarter 2020. Hopefully things will bounce back. All the people who put off the car buying, and are just dealing with their old jalopies that they hate, and just, you know, anxious to-- to replace. Hopefully consumer confidence starts coming back. Hopefully the economy starts coming back. Our stock market starts going in the right direction again. And yeah, I mean, that's-- that's the hope and prayer that everybody is-- is focusing on right now, I think.

GREG MIGLIORE: It'll be interesting, too, to see what the-- how the market recovers. Because I remember, like, two different sorts of, like, troubled markets where sales were actually somewhat OK. One was like probably in that '05-'06, like right on the verge of The Great Recession, where you saw a lot of incentives, especially the domestics were selling cars, like, almost losing money, you know, very sort of-- just all costs just to get volume, even at the expense of, you know, profit margins, and, you know, like, residual values, and, like, really healthy things you want to look for.

And then after, like, the collapse, if you will, '12, '13, '14, you generally saw fewer incentives. And when you did see stuff like that, it was to, like, truly drive sales, as opposed to, like, we have to move the metal to keep this factory open. You know, it was a bit of a-- at least from the domestics, they were right-sized. And they were able to sort of use incentives a little more, you know, judiciously.

So we'll see. I mean, we're still waiting for some of the numbers to come in. Looks like Toyota had an over 30% drop. We haven't seen Ford yet. Yeah, I mean, Toyota actually reported for March. And they still do it by the month. So, I mean, some bright spots I think. You know, we'll see. It was 37% for March. So you know, you might see maybe big trucks or something kind of weather this. Who knows. But it will be--

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Speaking of big trucks, Greg, did you see, one interesting little footnote this-- this sales report, General Motors, the Chevy Silverado, is back into second place as the second-best selling pickup nameplate in the United States. Ram-- Ram had held that spot for the last, I don't know, handful of sales reports, which was big news, because Silverado has always traditionally been in that number-two spot behind F-Series. Chevy Silverado, back in number-two spot. See how long that lasts.

GREG MIGLIORE: I-- I'm curious about the reasons for that. Maybe we should do a story on that, like, tomorrow or something. That's interesting to me. I think, you know, for a while a lot of people just thought the Ram was just amazing-- which I agree. It's my favorite truck in the segment-- and that Chevy kind of slipped with the redesign, the new generation. But I think the-- like, the Silverado is actually finding its audience. I think it took a few years. I think people, like, you know, you're seeing the different-- like, how it looks in different trims. You know, frankly, maybe they're putting some incentives on that. I haven't looked at that. But I think it's finding good audience.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I think there's a good chance that there's-- that there's some pretty big incentives on certain-- certain versions of it. And you know, actually, I did the-- the drive on the Silverado. And I came away thinking, it's good enough. It's just good enough to maintain that number-two spot, was basically what I thought about it. And then Ram started coming back. And I was like, well, I guess I was wrong. It's not quite good enough.

But-- but maybe that was just a-- you know, maybe it was just a blip. And maybe it's going to start-- I mean, the worst thing you can say about the Silverado. I don't know if you guys all agree with me. The worst thing you can say about it is its styling isn't for everyone, and the interior isn't up to snuff. But like, the actual dynamics of the vehicle-- the powertrains, the way that it rides and handles, the specs, all that kind of stuff-- are right up there where-- where they need to be. It's maybe missing a few headline-grabbing features.

That inline 6 diesel is a gem. The-- the numbers don't-- don't put it quite up where it needs to be in-- in towing. But they're going to fix that. That's a cooling issue that they're working on right now. I can-- I can tell you that's something that's going to improve over the next couple of years in that diesel-- small diesel Duramax engine.

And it's-- you know, with that diesel, and in the right trim, the Trail Boss-- or I actually prefer the GMC Sierra over the Silverado myself. But the Sierra with that diesel in the right trim is-- it's a pretty darn nice truck if you can get over the way that the interior looks.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think, again, Chevy interiors have-- you know, they're-- you know, sort of depending on the model, they can be kind of not up to snuff. I do like the exterior of the Silverado at this point, though. I-- it really grew on me. I love the Trail Boss. You know, it-- just, I don't know. It-- literally, this new gen of the Silverado has grown on me.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I'm still more of a GMC guy. You know, I-- I've-- I've driven them both, I've walked around them both, I've looked at them both. I like the GMC a little bit better.

The one-- one little tidbit-- this is not, like, public knowledge that everybody knows about. And I'm not breaking any embargoes or anything by saying this, because I'm just putting things together based on what I've heard, you know, in random talks and reading between lines. GM knows that the interior isn't good enough. And they're working on that. That's going to get fixed in a-- in a refresh here, probably pretty soon. You can already see the fruits of their labor in the new Tahoe-- Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon, where they-- those are obviously based on the same platform, GM full-size trucks, like the Silverado is. And the interior in the Tahoe is significantly better than the interior in the Silverado.

Expect those-- I don't know that it's going to be identical. But I can tell you that Chevy is aware, GM is aware that they've got to do something about that interior. And they are. And probably that'll be coming soon in-- in a relatively-- you know, relatively soon in a refresh of the current one before, like, any major refreshing in the exterior happens.

GREG MIGLIORE: The one missed opportunity I see with that is, like, when you roll out your, like, new generation of truck, and it's, like, the complete package, that's when you get all the buzz. Like, when you just do an interior refresh, like, that's something that we-- like, we cover it, of course, and we probably make a big deal of it. Some of the buff books do as well. But you don't necessarily hit all the consumers at that point. Because, you know, they've already got this maybe negative view out there. And then it's like you're sort of redoing your homework, if you will.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Totally. Yeah, no, it was a missed opportunity with that truck, especially when you compared it to what Ram did, where they came out and wowed us with the exterior, and then we got inside and we were like, whoa, holy crap. Look at that-- look at that screen. Look at the fit and finish. Like, they're killing it.

So yeah, no, Chevy-- GM's got some work to do on that. And the good news is they know it. They're not in denial mode. So yeah, that'll-- it'll get fixed here.

GREG MIGLIORE: So what do we think about cafe racer perhaps for Harley-Davidson. It's kind of random.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Hey, speaking of trucks. What do you put in the back of your pickup truck? Motorcycles.

GREG MIGLIORE: There you go.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Right? Yeah. I think it's gotta be a really weird time to be someone who works at Harley-Davidson corporate. Because they've got some really cool projects going on right now. They've got this new 60-degree liquid-cooled V-twin. They've got-- they've announced two displacement levels, a 975 and a 1250, that are coming out. And the preliminary power figures that I'm hearing from-- from those engines are going to be right where they have to be to compete.

Which, remember, we're talking about Harley-Davidson here, which, you know, like, traditionally, as long as they go, potato, potato, potato, potato, potato, no one cares how much power they're actually making, like, none of the people who are buying them. This is not going to be like that. This is a-- a much more modern engine design.

And I mean, they've got radiators on them. Oh my goodness, like, what are these Harley people going to think about that? But-- but it's like, the-- the company's in so much turmoil right now. Like, sales are-- are drastically down. I scrolled through their investment-- or investor I don't know what you call it-- packet that they give out to their investment people who own stock in the company. It's all publicly available. And I was scrolling through it. And that's where we came across these pictures of the new cafe racer and the new flat track bike.

These are segments that Harley should have been playing in a long time ago. You know, they-- they've spent all of their time making incremental changes to their big, huge, air-cooled V-twin baggers.

And the-- like, here's what stood out to me as I was going through the investors' packet, is they've got this graph where they show their percentage of the heavyweight motorcycle category in Europe and the United States. And it's-- it's-- I mean, to their credit, it's basically flat. You know, they own something like 70% of the-- the heavyweight motorcycle segment here in the United States. I mean, congratulations for that. But you're-- you're holding on to a dwindling segment.

And-- and, like, you're touting this as your big achievement when what you really need to do is say, OK, we've got that. We're good at that. How do we actually, you know, combat the-- the shrinking total number of sales? We're maintaining our level of sales in this dwindling market. That's not good enough. We need a much bigger plan to attract new buyers, as opposed to those ones that we're currently hanging on to, that eventually are not going to be buying these big, huge, heavyweight motorcycles.

And you know, most buyers that are our age, and are entering that point in their life where they've got enough disposable income that they think, like, yeah, I'm going to park a motorcycle in my garage, they're not looking for a $30,000 V-twin air-cooled motorcycle that's drift in Chrome. They're still selling a good number of them. They're still making a crap-ton of profit on them. But they're just not competing in other segments like they had to.

They've tried to with Buell, they've tried to, you know, with their street line. But they-- you know, like, every time they do it, everyone who follows the industry looks at it and, like, yeah, cool, not what you need to do. What you really need to do is make a real honest-to-God Harley-Davidson motorcycle with the bar and shield on it that's-- that you can park next to a Ducati and not feel bad about. And that's what they're trying to do with what-- that's what it looks like they're trying to do with this new flat track and cafe racer that we posted on today-- you can see the article on Autoblog.com-- and with the ones that they've shown last year, the Pan-America, which is a adventure motorcycle, and the Bronx, which is kind of a street fighter.

They needed to do this five years ago. We should already be on the second generation of these bikes. I hope that it's not too little too late. I hope that motorcycle buyers take Harley-Davidson serious. It sounds like they're finally taking the market serious and building the bike that they-- that they need to compete in showrooms. But yeah, like, we've got to see these things not in investor catalogs we need to see them in dealerships and you know I think it's-- it's exciting if you're a Harley-Davidson fan, that-- that they're doing this. It's an exciting thing if you're a motorcyclist who leans toward buying American when possible.

I just-- you know, I'm still in that wait-and-see mode. Like, we've got to see these things in the flesh. We've got to, you know, make sure that they are what they look like they are, and that they're fully competitive. Because that's what-- that's what they need to do. They can't say, like, well, it's almost as good, but it's a Harley. That's not good enough anymore. It has to be just as good and a Harley. So we'll see.

GREG MIGLIORE: Well said. That is-- man, that can be its own podcast right there.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: [CHUCKLES]

GREG MIGLIORE: I-- I just think it's really interesting-- interesting strategy. The cafe racer segment is something I always find to be sort of-- that piques my interest. I'm-- like, I'm not a rider. I love motorcycles. I just don't-- like, I never really got into riding then when I was younger. So probably not going to start now, as I'm working through the backstretch of my 30s.

But I mean, bikes are awesome. So-- and cafe racers are a segment I think that are really intriguing. Harley, of course, is just, you know, big, iconic company, American company. So our readers tend to really, I think, get into it. You know, the story was doing really well earlier. It looks like it's kind of down to the top five or something now, which is still really good.

But yeah, any other thoughts on this, Jeremy? Because you're-- you're the rider. You're the expert here. I remember I did that shoot at the motorcycle club, Ryders Alley, in New York with you a couple of years ago, for VR. And I forget what we rode-- or you rode. But I think it was a Scout, right?

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh, yeah, an Indian Scout, yeah. Yeah, it's actually interesting-- Indian's seen, like, tons of great goodwill and press. You know, Indian is another brand that-- that could have come to market and, like, kind of rested on its laurels of having the-- the name recognition that it has. Everyone knows-- you know, despite the fact that they didn't make motorcycles for a long time, everyone knows Indian. And they know them for their big, leather-clad, chrome-dipped motorcycles.

But Indian has not played it safe. They've come out with these new, innovative, fully-modern bikes. And they've got a flat tracker, a 1,200-CC flat tracker that is getting great press. I haven't-- I haven't looked at sales numbers-- sales figures on it. But judging from internet goodwill, I would suggest that it's probably doing pretty well.

So-- so Indian is kind of like this case that you can look at and say, OK, Harley, you can still build your big, cruiser-style, you know, American-style, hop on, go for a ride down the turnpike, and you know, turn around when you get tired, and come back home. Like, you can still do that. Indian's still doing that with their Chief line and whatnot. But that doesn't mean that you can't take some of the profit that you're making on those vehicles, and enter into these new segments that are attracting the younger riders, that are making your brand relevant to the people who are going to be buying motorcycles for the next 30 years.

So yeah, Indian's already done it. It's a good thing that you brought them up, Greg. Harley-Davidson is behind the times. I'm hoping it's not too late for them to catch up. Because, I mean, Harley is a great iconic brand. Like, no one wants to see them fail, but we also don't want to see him making nothing but $30,000 motorcycles that-- that, you know, like, very-- like, a very dwindling number of people are interested in buying.

GREG MIGLIORE: Well said. I think you've given me-- we did a Green podcast a while back. One, we should do another one of those, John, because that was awesome. Two, we should do a bike podcast too. I think motorcycles make a really good podcast. Maybe even one of those, like, Google Hangouts recording things we did on the Bronco a couple of weeks back. Just throw it out there, let people hear us talking, and yeah, go from there.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Sounds like fun.

GREG MIGLIORE: That wraps up our news segment and our review segment. No Spend my Money this week. Please send us your Spend my Monies. We'd love to spend your money. Because yeah, I mean, we got to do something, right?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, even your hypothetical money.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, hypothetical money, what you're going to buy.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Obviously if you're not in the-- right-- you're not in the market right now maybe, but you know, if-- if you're thinking, you know, you need to buy a new-- I was going to say bike. But yeah, we'd love to do a buy-- spend my money on a bike segment too. But if you're going to buy something in the-- in the relative future, or, you know, if one of your relatives or somebody, you want to help them pick out a new car or something, yeah, we-- we love spending your money.

GREG MIGLIORE: Tell you what, when this is all over with, I think I do want to get, like, a older 3-series coupe, something, run around in, maybe just throw the golf clubs in. Like, that's what it could be used for. I was looking longingly at my Charger in the garage the other day, which hasn't moved in a couple years. That looks fun. Yeah, man, I miss driving. It's fun, when, you know, you do it in these limited abilities that we have.

How is quarantine treating you guys?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Not too shabby. Yeah, I've been, you know, just changing where I work.

[CHUCKLES]

Different places around the house. And it feels like a fresh experience every day.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I mean--

GREG MIGLIORE: Same here.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I'm-- I'm one of the Autoblogger that-- that generally works from home anyway. I make it into the office when I can. But, I mean, that part of it hasn't been terribly different for me. But you know, I live in a pretty small town. And one of the things that I love about my town is that, you know, after my workday's over, I can close my laptop, and I can walk down to one of our little breweries or one of our quaint-- quaint little restaurants, and, you know, pop in for a bite, or a beer, or something like that. And it's a bummer that-- that that's been taken away.

I guess my-- you know, I can deal with it. I'll be fine dealing with it. But I just hope that on the other side of this that enough has been done and-- you know, I guess I don't want to see the quaint little neighborhood restaurant and bar, and-- like, I want to see them come back. I want to see them bounce back from this. And I hope that they have the resources to do so when it's all said and done.

GREG MIGLIORE: Totally. Yeah, we just heard one of our favorite pizza joints closed. Basically they said indefinitely. So take that how you will. Like, hopefully they come back. But I mean, who knows. Like, I feel like this whole, like, takeout, takeaway thing, like, that's just not going to work for some people, you know, like, some restaurants. So we were a little-- little stressed to hear that, because their pizza is, like, mind-altering.

But yeah, I guess we'll just-- we'll leave it there. I was going to ask you guys about what you're eating and drinking. But this just turned into a pretty marathon podcast. I think it's just rather than talk about it, I think I'm going to go have. I've got some M-43 cans chilling in my basement refrigerator.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh, that sounds nice.

GREG MIGLIORE: Extra cool. New England IPA. What are you guys drinking? We'll close with that, if you're drinking anything. Coffee is good alternative.

JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Actually I've got some beer brewing right now. I was just checking the CO2 levels on it downstairs earlier today while I was on lunch. It's not quite done fermenting yet. So then I'll have to move it into the keg and then carbonate it. So I'm not drinking that yet. But in my fridge, there's a-- a collection of everything from PBRs, to Yuengling lagers, to an oak brown ale that I got from a local brewery not too long ago.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yuengling sounds good. Maybe one Heineken or something too. What do you think, John?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I've been-- I've been drinking a little bit less than normal, but the stuff I have been drinking has been a little more interesting. I have a fridge full of beers, just lots of different things that I've wanted to try. And some kind of going through finally drinking some of those, some of them, admittedly, I should have drank while they were fresh. But some of them are aging really well.

And I still have, like, several years worth of KBS-- Founder's KBS bottles. So I'm going to have to do, like, a vertical taste test of the different years of it, and see how they compare. It's been something I've been wanting to do for a while. And I just haven't had the time to really sit and open each bottle and, you know, really take notes on them. So we'll see.

GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds like a good way to spend some time. Everybody else, hey, be safe out there. Thanks for listening to this pretty long of the Autoblog Podcast. Hope you enjoy it. Hopefully when you're, like, you know, using your, like, you know, government-approved exercise, walks, or whatever you do with your dogs, or going to do, like, your-- you know, your essential goods, you know, you can listen to this, break it up a couple of times. And you know, you got a little extra-- a little extra Autoblog Podcast in your life for the next week or so.

So hey, it's been a fun show, guys. Listeners, hey, thanks for listening. Be safe out there. Until next time.

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