In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor Alex Kierstein and Senior Editor, Green, John Beltz Snyder. They start things off with a discussion of the week's news: GMC is launching an electric Hummer truck with a Super Bowl ad, and Tesla was profitable in Q4, sending its stock soaring. Then they talk about what they've been driving, including a super badass Mercedes-Benz Sprinter, the Kia Telluride and their long-term Volvo S60 PHEV. There's no "Spend My Money" segment this week, so send in your questions for future podcast episodes.
TranscriptGREG MIGLIORE: Quip, makers of the Quip Electric Toothbrush. Make good habits simple with a new brush head, floss refill, and toothpaste delivered every three months. Sets start at $25. Get your first refill free at getquip.com/auto. That's get Q-U-I-P dot com slash auto.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Autoblog Podcast. I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today in the studio, Senior Editor for all things Green, John Snyder. And on the phones from the West Coast, Senior Editor Alex Kierstein.
Guys, we've got a great show for you today. Couple of really interesting news nuggets we're going to get into. Hummer is back. They're going to do a Super Bowl commercial. They've done some interesting teasers. You can check that all out on our site if you're listening to this before the Super Bowl.
If it's after the Super Bowl-- well, actually, I think the clips show a little bit more than what you might see in the ad. So still go to Autoblog. Just always go to Autoblog when in doubt.
We'll also touch on some Tesla earnings. They had a strong fourth quarter and ended up having a pretty decent 2019. Going to talk about that a little bit. Of course, we've got our green editor here for that.
Then we'll get into what we've been driving, the Sprinter van. We didn't drive just any Sprinter. We drove the 3500 XD. That means it was a diesel with duallies.
It was huge. It was crazy. I think this was like the modern A-Team van. John's chuckling. I think we had a-- we had a pretty good time with that thing.
JOHN SNYDER: Oh, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And then Alex spent some time in the Kia Telluride out on the West Coast. It's a great vehicle. It's also one of its features-- a couple of its features, actually-- won our 2020 Technology of the Year, which you should check out on our site. We're going to present that next week at the Chicago Auto Show.
Then we'll do a quick long term update on the Volvo S60, which we've had for almost a month now, and we are enjoying it immensely. No "Spend Your Money" this week. But please send those to us so we could do a couple of them in, of course, an upcoming show.
We're going to do an update. A couple of you guys have written in about what you've done with our advice. So stay tuned for that in coming weeks.
But let's jump right in. Breaking news this morning at 10:00, Hummer sort of reconfirmed, if you will, Buick-- or excuse me-- GMC confirmed that Hummer is coming back. It's part of the GMC brand, which is an interesting play.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's going to be an electric vehicle. They're talking 1,000 horsepower, 0 to 60 in three seconds, which is pretty mind-blowing for a vehicle that promises to likely be very large. New electric range yet. Some torque that Alex, as you pointed out, will obviously be at the wheels. This isn't like a torque figure, as, you know, a car company would normally put it in regards to horsepower and torque.
And just in general, a very interesting morning when it comes to the Hummer brand. I shouldn't say brand, Hummer vehicle. They're noting it's coming under GMC. John, initial thoughts.
JOHN SNYDER: I don't know. I'm glad that there's going to be another electric vehicle, you know, with a storied brand name. It seems completely unnecessary. But sometimes unnecessary is just fine. I was never really a fan of the Hummer brand before.
The H1 was great. And you know, just regular Humvees are a cool thing on their own. But you know, the H2 H3 weren't my thing. I don't think I'm going to be falling head over heels for this one either. But I don't know, it could be interesting.
GREG MIGLIORE: Alex, why don't you jump in? I'm out of breath after that opening monologue. And I wrote the story. So I'm a little tired.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: What do you think, Alex?
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): I mean, like John, I feel like I have some mixed feelings. One, my overarching thought here is anything that mainstreams EVs is good, even if it is, for now, something that's kind of wasteful, or excessive, or-- you know, we have studies that show that just like anything else, just because a vehicle is electric doesn't necessarily mean it's as green as it could possibly be.
You know, batteries require a lot of energy to make. Rare minerals-- there are human rights and environmental concerns surrounding that. And you know, this is going to be a vehicle that undoubtedly has a giant battery. So no one should buy this thinking they're saving the world as much as they could be if they buy something more reasonably sized.
But you know, on the other hand, even the dirtiest, biggest, dumbest EVs are, over their lifecycle, as long as they're not being powered by a filthy coal plant, in most of the country, it's just way better for carbon emissions in general. And I wrote a pretty extensive article about this a while back that maybe we can link to in the post.
But basically, all of the arguments against an EV like this Hummer are a little disingenuous because you know, when you actually look at all of the factors, you know, there's downsides with anything that comes out of the modern supply chain. And the Hummer, the GMC Hummer, isn't going to be significantly worse in any metric, other than maybe cobalt content, than a Tahoe. So it's going to be way better than a Tahoe in every metric that sort of matters from a green standpoint. So it's weird to see these sort of disingenuous arguments against EVs.
That being said, as a branding exercise, a little weird that it's a GMC. Maybe Hummer went away so long ago that no one really cares that it used to be a brand and not a model. I don't know. I think having an air of, like, coal-rolling machismo attached to an EV is not a terrible thing from a branding perspective.
Between this and the Mustang Mach E and all the electric pickups that are coming out, like maybe-- maybe it'll make people think differently about EVs. And that's-- you know, whether this sells, or GM falls on their face in the execution, or it's really dumb in some other respect, you know, is it moving the ball forward? I don't know. What do you guys think? I think it is. I think everything happening with EVs right now is advancing the ball.
JOHN SNYDER: Well, yeah. I think, especially with legacy automakers, especially the US automakers, who sort of have to have something to prove, launching their electrification programs with something that's cool that garners a lot of attention and isn't viewed as some soft, pansy, weak, smug--
You know, people used to see Prius drivers as, when those first started coming out, make your first EVs cool, or at least some of your first EVs cool, and desirable, and flashy. And once people have it in their minds that, hey, these don't have to be wimpy, little, slow boxes, the EVs can be cool. And then from there, they'll probably more accepting of future products.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think there's a lot to unpack with today's news. I mean, for starters, calling it a GMC Hummer is kind of awkward. But I think almost certainly, they're doing that to get around any residual franchise issues with sort of the demise of the Hummer brand. I also think it makes a lot of sense. You want to have-- you know, you probably don't want to make this like a multi-vehicle line up, you know, just one.
JOHN SNYDER: That'd be a train wreck.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, a train wreck. Somebody made the comparison earlier that the 11,500 torque number they put out was like what-- an eighth or a quarter of what a locomotive would put out? They sort of snuck that in there, acting like, oh, yeah, yeah, here's this crazy number, without really specifying, like, this isn't exactly how you would commonly accept torque. A lot of you gear heads immediately picked it up. And I saw that too. I thought this is crazy. So you know, it is what it is.
JOHN SNYDER: Tesla-- I know Tesla did that with the Roadster. When they introduced the new Roadster, they stated real torque figure. And Lotus or somebody, when they announced an EV, did the same thing. And it's really sort of a nothing number, since that's not how we use torque. You have to divide it by the gear ratio, or there's a couple different ways to divide it, based on, you know, RPMs.
GREG MIGLIORE: Consult your [INAUDIBLE].
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. But it'll probably be closer to high triple digits--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOHN SNYDER: --for motor torque.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, in some ways, I think, obviously, it's too early to rate a vehicle. I think it's-- with an electric vehicle, you know it's going to be super capable and crazy, and you're going to make it that way. You could probably say, hey, we're going to make it 1,000 horsepower and then kind of reverse engineer or whatever it is you need to do to make it that way.
In some ways, I think they probably should have put an estimated torque figure out and moved on, rather than have, like, some of us and our car brethren sort of picking at them for that. And then you've got the mainstream media just straight up reported it, which is also kind of problematic.
But that little hiccup aside, I actually think the Hummer name is a good move. At first, I was kind of-- I was actually kind of for it, but also sort of on the fence, just because there was a lot of negative connotation. But here's the thing. There's not that many cars that if you say the name of said car, a silhouette of that vehicle pops up in your brain.
A Hummer is one of them. So even with the good and the bad, it's immediately recognizable. And in this era where we're so saturated with all these different cars, different brands, different types of experiences, it does really cut right through them. You know immediately what you're talking about.
And you know, frankly, a lot of the people who are truly against Hummer, if you will, 10, 15 years ago, they're not going to buy this anyway. And for the rest of the general population, they're going to say, OK, I remember this. Oh, it's different now. It's cleansed. I don't know. They've reversed it and taken the dirtiest vehicle and made it this, you know, EV. So I mean, maybe there's a story of, like, you know, there is a story of being reborn, this, you know--
JOHN SNYDER: Redemption even.
GREG MIGLIORE: Redemption, that's the word I'm looking for. And I mean, the other thing is is right now, what's the most popular body style by far? It's trucks and SUVs. So make this rough and tough commando thing, and, you know, it could definitely be an image play, and in some ways, a practical play for GM's EV strategy.
JOHN SNYDER: Get Arnold Schwarzenegger on board to, you know--
GREG MIGLIORE: Didn't he do that the first time?
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. I mean, he was a big Hummer fan. And then now, he's a green guy. And he has a G Wagon that he converted. And he'd be a good fit for Hummer again.
GREG MIGLIORE: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's--
JOHN SNYDER: It's like they made this just for him.
GREG MIGLIORE: So reportedly, LeBron James is going to be in the commercial. That's what "The Wall Street Journal" reported about a month ago, when they first kind of-- this came out. I actually put a ping back into General Motors saying, hey, can you confirm that report? Since you're confirming your Super Bowl commercial, is LeBron James actually going to be in it?
So there's all of that. And there's just a lot here. I think, you know, one of the teaser images said arriving fall of 2021. So that's, you know, a year, almost two years out. You're talking 20 months. That's a really good long time. My sense is this is going to be fairly low volume, which makes a good deal of sense too.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It'll be really interesting to see what the range is. I think that will be good. GM has a lot of good battery technology, and hybrid [INAUDIBLE] electric propulsion technology. So I think they can figure out something that'll work in there. I think the trick here is how you communicate this and how exactly are you using it.
Is it strictly a product play? If so, OK, great. If you're trying to use this to elevate your brand as a company for green initiatives, you know, that's, again, where I start to feel a little bit like using a Hummer could be problematic. I think, you know, if you really want to say, hey, we're green, maybe you try something else.
But just in, like, what's the strongest play you could do right now, Hummer is a strong name. It sounds like the product is going to be solid. It all adds up as far as, like, a short term play that could work. And you know, who knows? Tomorrow's not promised. Maybe that's the right play right now.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. I think it's good that they're starting with something cool instead of something, you know, necessarily green. I think it sets up the rest of the products in the future very nicely, regardless of how cool they end up being. But yeah, I think it's interesting that they chose GMC. I'm glad that they did, in fact.
Like you said, having a new Hummer brand and releasing multiple products would-- I don't know. That just doesn't seem like a good thing for GM to be doing right now. I think GMC is a good fit for them. That's a strong crossover SUV truck brand.
And looking at the little teaser image, I actually like-- it says Hummer across the front, where the grill slits would be. But you can just see the hint of the GMC badge below it-- super tiny. I kind of love that. It's almost like an Easter egg.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the grill shot that they showed looks really good, actually.
JOHN SNYDER: It does.
GREG MIGLIORE: I almost kind of feel guilty about liking that. Because you know, if you remember the front of those old Hummers, they were like military vehicles. And in some ways, it's not really the look that you identify, especially if-- not to get political, but let's say you're a green voter, you want to make a plug part of your next car purchase.
And then you're sort of saying, wow, that Hummer, that's a great-looking vehicle. It's sort of like you're changing everything you maybe would have hated about yourself 15 years ago. So it takes a lot of cognitive recalibration.
JOHN SNYDER: That's good for GM, though, you know?
GREG MIGLIORE: That'll be my final point here, is this is a very polarizing vehicle. But sometimes even bad publicity is publicity. So it's getting people talking about it. And even if you really were, say, against the Hummer brand the first time around, GM's got a great answer for you right here.
And that kind of shuts up some people. You could definitely make a nuanced counter argument to that. But I mean, this is-- in some ways, this is like straight out of the PT Barnum playbook here, which make some sense.
Cool. So speaking of green trucks and SUVs, let's talk Tesla. They reported strong fourth quarter earnings yesterday. I saw a different headline saying they crushed expectations, which is fair. They had a solid fourth quarter. They've got a lot of momentum going here into 2020.
It looks like, you know, Elon, in some ways, has somewhat put some of his controversies of the past a little bit behind him. He actually looked-- aside from his crazy dancing video, but he wore a suit to that event in Shanghai. It seems like he's been acting a little bit more statesmanlike, if you will, which, for him, is, you know, almost anything is the permanent.
But bottom line, they seem to have a plan for model y and model 3 and how they're all going to fit together. We're hearing about improvements for some of the older vehicles in their lineup.
Cynically, I still need to see them actually do it, do more of it at Fremont. They do more of it at their China factory. And then scale up in Germany, which they're also looking to do at that center facility there. But I feel like they're laying infrastructure that seems promising. And I guess I'm just-- I'm cautious at this point.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. I mean, when you talk about China and Europe, it feels like they're moving really fast now. And you know, they've pushed up the date of the model y to, you know, end of March, I think, of this year for US deliveries, which is-- I don't know. Like, their past rollouts have been, you know, troublesome. So it'll be really interesting to see if they can pull it off this time around with these high expectations. If they can, I think that's going to be a really, really good sign for Tesla.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I think they-- yeah, I mean, it's just-- it's a very interesting tipping point, I think, too. I saw a Morgan Stanley research note that was basically saying 2020 could be like the year of sort of the EV tipping point. I'm not so sure I believe that, because I don't really see anything happening this year.
But you're seeing more and more of the groundwork being laid that could make people really start to adopt these vehicles down the road. I think right now, there's actually a lot of compelling products, whether they're full EVs, plug-ins, plug-in hybrids, things like that, that if you're really interested in making that shift, the options are there for you.
But I think the question now becomes is, what about if you're not really interested? What if you're kind of interested? And I feel like that's where automakers and people who are figuring out ways to calibrate the infrastructure-- that's where we need more easy end-to-end solutions. You need to make this easy for people.
And I think Tesla, with its supercharger network, and just, frankly, marketing and communicating that these things are out there, that helps consumers. I think frankly, you know, Hummer would be well served to maybe come up with like an infrastructure to give charging for that. I mean, I think it's just one of those things where, like, right now, you have these products, and they appear to be in silos.
Obviously, they're competing with each other from different OEMs. In some ways, I think for us to see more widespread adoption, we got to figure out the charging network. And yeah, I know. That's my diatribe there.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. Go ahead, Alex.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): Oh, I was just going to agree with Greg. And I think the other piece of the puzzle is I keep coming back to what is going to get, like, a lot of people into it. You know, beyond the convenience and the technical limitations, you've got to charge it. Batteries aren't as energy dense as gas. It's just not as convenient to use it. That's one aspect.
But so much of what drives consumer spending is price. And in my mind, the big piece of the puzzle that Tesla solved was producing a product where its premium price made sense. So people that buy a Tesla don't feel like they're getting a terrible value. If you buy a Nissan LEAF at that MSRP and don't qualify for a tax credit, it seems like a very, very expensive way to get a very limited product with a limited functionality.
In my mind, the thing that needs to get solved next is price. You know, would I love-- you know, it's like that old saying about racing. Like, you know, you can go fast, cheap, or reliable. Pick two out of three, or whatever that saying is. It's like at the moment, you can't have it all. You can't have great range, low price, and ease of use, or whatever.
I think cost is the key factor to wider adoption, even with limitations. It doesn't really make sense for almost anybody to have an EV as an only car right now, given the infrastructure, and people's use cases, and just consumer preferences. But if they're cheap enough, suddenly, you have a lot of people using them as a second vehicle, as commuter vehicles, fleet vehicles.
Look at the used EV market right now. You have people buying-- you know, trying to think like 500 E's, and e golfs, and other things that are like really early production ones on the used market. And they're like pennies on the dollar. I've been trying to convince my parents to get a used 500 E with low miles forever, because you can get one for like 6 grand, you know? It's just so incredibly cheap that the limitations almost fade away.
Do I think that will happen with brand new EVs, like at MSRP? They're not going to be $6,000. But you know, as soon as I get to the point where you've got some sort of parity, things change. Right now, they're less functional and more expensive.
And without some other selling point-- like Hummer is going to have, you know, sex appeal, basically. It's going to be big and macho, and sort of interesting. The Rivian and the Ford F-150 EV are going to have utility. The Tesla has also sex appeal, a slightly different sex appeal. But yeah, I think price is the X factor that's going to take us into the next wave of EVs.
Until then, they're just going to be occupying a variety of niches. I mean, that's my thought. It's cool that the niches are expanding. But I'm not expecting Hummer, or the Model Y, the Tesla Model Y, to suddenly break through and you're cutting into Corolla sales or whatever. What do you think, John?
JOHN SNYDER: Well, it's interesting. I've been going on Reddit, or even the comments of our website and other websites. You see people talking about EVs. And people are just like, the problem is there's no affordable EVs.
And then someone will chime in, well, check out the Kona or Nero. Their MSRP is about the average cost of a vehicle sold in the US anyway. And people actually are like, oh, wow. I didn't even know that. I'm going to go look.
And it's really interesting to see. I've had friends go through the same sort of discovery and thought process. And you know, there's a challenge there too of-- depending on where you live, it's not just the infrastructure. It's just being able to buy it, having it available at the dealership, having someone who can service it if something goes wrong.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): Having the dealer willing to sell it. And that's an issue we've seen, where you have EV inventory, and the dealers aren't really super into selling them. So that's another problem. But yeah, go ahead.
JOHN SNYDER: But yeah, you see people sort of waking up to the idea that there are affordable EVs, affordable-ish now. And yes, there are more that are coming out at all price points. But I think when costs really start coming down more, and they're more widely available, and people have more options at lower price points, that's when we'll see a lot of momentum for them.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know what I think is interesting? I was asked yesterday something about Tesla, just like the narrative surrounding them. But I replied, Tesla elevates the conversation. You simply put Tesla into a discussion, and boom-- everybody has a strong opinion.
Everybody is thinking about the future. This time, it was supposed to be about Tesla earnings. And I guess, to be simple, yeah, they made some money. And look at this. We've gone off. And our listeners don't really care about the finances. But do check out the full story on "Autoblog." Another shameless plug.
But I mean, to the broader point, you bring up Tesla, you don't just think about them. You do think about them, because they're very unique in what they do, and what they're trying to do, and how people feel about them. But you just start talking about EVs. And to me, that's a great thing.
JOHN SNYDER: [INAUDIBLE]
GREG MIGLIORE: I will say about the-- oh, I'm sorry, John. Go ahead.
JOHN SNYDER: No, go ahead.
GREG MIGLIORE: I was just going to that Tesla sort of essentially laid the groundwork for what the industry is right now.
The funny thing is is other people laid the groundwork and then walked away. Like, with the EV1, like Honda, with the-- what am I looking for here-- the Insight.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, other companies were there and then decided they made a hard business decision. But they didn't look long term. And they should have.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): And you know, you were saying, what did their earnings mean? I mean, I don't know if Tesla, this last earnings statement, was a make or break point for them. But I think every moment that they continue to be viable, every moment that they sort of almost like-- I think their stock value is one thing, right?
There's a lot of speculation. There's a lot of insanity there. I'm not an expert in the market. But you know, that's one piece of the puzzle.
But the other piece of the puzzle, in my mind, is it's been another quarter, and Tesla's a going concern. I mean, they're still in business. They're still making cars. They don't appear to have an existential, like, funding or production crisis at the moment.
Are things kind of on thin ice? I mean, they have been-- from the beginning, it's not easy to do something new at the kind of volume that they're doing. And they sort of willfully disregarded a lot of sort of common sense, or where status quos things in setting it up. So there's been a learning curve.
But I don't know if three years ago, I would have thought-- I think I would have given Tesla even odds to fold. Now I'm like, I don't see them folding. I mean, unless the former NUMMI factory, like, burns to the ground or something like that. I mean, unless there's like an act of God, I think they were around for a several year time span at a minimum, guaranteed.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Totally agree with that. I think even last year, just with some of the shenanigans and just uncertainty with their uneven performances financially, I would have said, yeah. I don't know if I would have said 50-50 they'd go out of business. But I would have said there was like a 30% chance, like, as recently as six to eight months ago-- hey, something could happen. And boom, everything goes away for Tesla.
Now they feel like they found, like, an equilibrium. They feel like they've leveled off. And they actually have-- just like they can sort of make cars. And nobody's questioning if, you know, the lights are going to be on tomorrow. And I think the key takeaway for me from the earnings call was that they are targeting 500,000 deliveries next year. That's a legit number. That's more than some major automakers are going to do next year. [LAUGHS]
JOHN SNYDER: The fact that they've now sold hundreds of thousands of vehicles. They sold 112,000 vehicles during the fourth quarter of 2019. It doesn't surprise me at all that they could hit 500,000 vehicles next year.
It's surprising to me that they've come that far, though, you know? Those numbers are real numbers, and they tell a huge story.
GREG MIGLIORE: On the list of endangered brands-- you know, for a while, I would've put them pretty high up. Now I wouldn't put them all that high. I feel like they're just in that, like, realm of, you know, companies, brands that are doing what they do. And if something happens, sure, they could be in trouble.
But they're not going to just fold tomorrow. Brands immediately, like Chrysler, or Aston Martin, you know, and I'm speaking specifically about the Chrysler brand-- brands like that-- I mean, Lotus. You know, these are brands that have far less security than Tesla does right now.
JOHN SNYDER: If I were an independent investor, I don't know if I'd invest in Tesla at this price point.
GREG MIGLIORE: $682 a share? [INAUDIBLE] one point crazy.
JOHN SNYDER: So volatile.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): Nuts.
JOHN SNYDER: But I certainly wouldn't want to be a Tesla short right now. That would suck.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): You know, I'm just thinking-- we were talking about sales. I don't think Infinity sales numbers-- you know, Infinity has been shuffling off into obsolescence for a couple of years now, maybe longer. They sold 10,000 cars in January, total. You know, they're definitely an established brand. Never a high volume brand.
But like, they're getting crushed. And it's amazing to me that you have that situation. Like, an EV owner and definite EV booster.
Tesla's a live wire. It's controversial. I don't know that I love everything about it. But you can't completely dismiss what they've done. They've changed the conversation. And they're delivering cars.
I think when the Model S came out, that was sort of what I was thinking about. Like, can they do this? You know, can they keep this up? Where's the top of this market? Are they going to hit a number and just not be able to get beyond it? And are they going to be able to use multiple model lines?
And they are. They're doing it. They've got two model lines going, three model lines going right now and a forth in the works. They're delivering cars somewhat effectively. They've sort of figured out some of the logistical things.
Part of me is just amazed. This is an American EV-exclusive company that only started a few years ago, and they're doing this. Whatever you think about the company, I think you have to admire that. That's pretty amazing.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, for sure.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, if I were looking to buy an electric vehicle, I would consider a Tesla. It would be on my list. I don't know if I would go that route. I think there's definitely better values. I mean, really, if you're looking for, like, plug-ins or hybrids, which obviously is a step below, like-- plug-in hybrids is what I'm trying to say-- below the pure EVs of Tesla, I mean Hyundai and Kia offer great value.
When you're looking at just if you want to get into the space, there's less flashy ways to do that. But I mean, a year ago, like I said, six to eight months ago, I would have been a little too scared off to maybe commit to buying a Tesla, whereas now, I think I would probably feel comfortable with it, as comfortable as I would with buying any sort of consumer goods.
We tend to have this relationship with our cars, where even if it's sort of a love/hate relationship, with almost any car, you know, the company that built it has been around for 50, 60, 80, 120 years. Like, Hyundai and Kia previously were, like, the newest brands. And they've been around since the early to mid '60s.
So I mean, there is a little bit of staying power there. With some of these newer ones, you kind of got to be willing to roll the dice. And I feel like Tesla, which has been around since the early part of this century, which is kind of a weird sentence to say, I think they're starting to show off some staying power. And that's a good thing.
So why don't we move along to what we've been driving. It's been a really wild week for us here at Autoblog Tower. We actually got behind the wheel of a Mercedes Sprinter van. The 3500 XD was awesome.
JOHN SNYDER: It was.
GREG MIGLIORE: It was crazy. It was like driving Bigfoot with a van in back.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. I was surprised. When this thing showed up, I was flabbergasted, just looking at it. It's huge. It's jacked up. It's a dually.
GREG MIGLIORE: I thought it was going to be way harder to drive than it was. It was pretty easy to drive.
JOHN SNYDER: That was the first thing I noticed, was it was super easy to drive. I was shocked. I was darting through Woodward traffic, and then driving at home. And it was-- you know, it was comfortable. It's not super bouncy. It's maybe-- I said it was maybe sort of on par with, like, a Ram Power Wagon in terms of ride.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think I was a little harsher than a Power Wagon, simply because the Power Wagon's got all that, like, offroad jounciness. But yeah, I get you. It's the same, like, slightly uncomfortable vibe.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, but not like knocking your teeth out or anything like that. The only thing was the morning I was driving it back to the office, it was 18 degrees out. And that giant space takes a really long time to warm up, and especially, like, defrosting the windshield. That's a lot of glass that you have to thaw. It was an interesting ride. And I could see my breath all the way to Southfield.
GREG MIGLIORE: I felt a little bad. I actually was able to get a convertible car seat in there, rear facing. And as you guys know, as parents of kids that are-- they're all about the same age here-- in car seats, you're generally not supposed to put out, like, their parkas or their down jackets, because that's just sort of a rule of thumb. So he's back there pretty cold in this rolling refrigerator.
And out of solidarity, I will wear, like-- I don't generally wear gloves. I used to dress up like I was going skiing in the mornings. Now I'm like, whatever. I'll wear my wool coat. I'm not going to wear the down jacket. Just stay strong. If he can handle it, I can handle it, you know, the time it takes the car to warm up.
Then, of course, he gets his jacket on, and we go outside the car. But yeah, we were both pretty chilly in that thing. And I think I was in it a solid 40 minutes before it actually achieved some level of warmness after overnight, you know, vegging. I guess let's put it that way.
JOHN SNYDER: It was fun. But Wally and I went out to the garage after I got home. And I open the garage door. And then it's just, you know, this giant van. He was just, whoa, that is so cool. And then, you know, we open it up. We're running around the back of it, playing, jumping.
Man, that thing was so much fun. And I thought it was really interesting. It's clearly a Mercedes. It's got the Mercedes infotainment. You know, there's some things that are, like, really nice-- comfortable heated seats, the signature seat adjustments on the door-- things like that. So it definitely feels like a Mercedes. But it's like this Amazon delivery van at the same time.
GREG MIGLIORE: I have a new respect just for all the delivery drivers out there. Obviously, that's a tough, tricky job. But you know, you would see a big van roll down the street, and you're like, oh, yeah. That person knows how to maneuver. That's not easy.
I actually thought it was a little bit better on the expressway than it was on surface streets, which I think maybe speaks to the fact that the surface streets around here are destroyed, and the expressways are, like, slightly less destroyed, as far as pavement quality. But once at speed, it was OK. It was loud, a little like-- you know, there was a lot of wind and road noise. But it was OK. It had bearing.
I remember minivans vans from the '90s and '80s that like my family had growing up. And then I would drive some of the older ones to college and stuff. Those were far more tippy and unsettling to drive than this. There was a lot of poise here. Steering was pretty good. I mean, that diesel will pull all day. It was pretty great.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, it definitely didn't feel slow or sluggish at all. It was noisy.
GREG MIGLIORE: Noisy, for sure. And I think we'd be remiss if we didn't describe what this thing looked like. This did not look like an Amazon van. This looked like the A-Team van. It was all black. It had duallies on the back, obviously. It had blacked out wheels. What else am I leaving out here? I mean, the grill, I think, was blacked out. It was crazy.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, it was lifted.
GREG MIGLIORE: It was kind of lifted. It had, like-- yeah. I mean, you know, cynically, to me, this kind of felt like Mercedes was like, how can we get some ink on our van business? Well, we could give them a normal van, or we could give them this modern day A-Team van. And then they're going to all write a bunch of kind of fun features about it, which well played. It's brilliant. We're talking about it. It was pretty good.
JOHN SNYDER: That would be the van that I would want to build out into a camper. Because I feel like you could go anywhere with it. You could go pretty far off road with that thing. And there's tons of room. And the roof is super high. You could have a loft in there. It'd be great.
GREG MIGLIORE: You could do a lot, which actually, this reminds me of a press trip I did with you, I think, way back a while ago, Alex. Do you remember Van Camp from, like, five years ago, six years ago, something like that? And I think we were both on it. And different publications. That's how long ago this was.
And it was Van Camp. And there was, like, these cartoonish vehicles. And they wanted you to do stuff with this. And the takeaway is these things are fun. And the experience of glamping was pretty awesome. But also that these vans are pretty big business for them. And they're trying to be serious about it here in the States.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah. I can't wait to get the Ease printer. They're making that over in Europe. That'll be a good one.
GREG MIGLIORE: That'll be in keeping with the times.
All right, I think we hit the Sprinter pretty hard. Let's move along to the Kia Telluride. Alex, you spent some time in this. It's a very nice vehicle. It's getting more and more, I think, you know, acclimation from different media outlets. People are really giving it praise.
I believe it won the North American Car and Truck of the Year award for the SUV category. It did win, which is strong for them. It certainly elevates the profile. We'll give a plug to the "Autoblog" 2020 Technology of the Year-- it's on our site-- the Telluride equipped with a blind spot system is what we ended up calling it. But it combines a couple of different features to sort of keep you in your lane and also give you some blind spot monitoring.
Was, again, our 2020 Technology of the Year. We're going to present that next week at the Chicago Auto Show. If you're listening to this, that'll be February 6. Look for that on the site. Also look for the story that's onsite.
But I digress. Alex, what did you do with the Telluride?
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): I mean, the same thing I'm doing with everything else right now, carting my kids around and running errands. I mean, you know, it's not super glamorous when you have two kids under three. But you know, for that task, this is a really nice three-row.
I mean, if you think about how good Kia products-- and Hyundai products, to be fair-- but Kia products in particular have gotten over the last few years, I think the Telluride sort of embodies a lot of what's good about them. The styling is-- you know, I don't know how to put this without sounding mean, but I felt like a few generations ago, Hyundai and Kia exterior design kind of looked like just less great than their Japanese counterparts, you know? They never looked quite like-- I'm thinking about, like, older Kia Fortes. And they always just-- the proportions just never really gelled for me, right? Like, they didn't work as a cohesive whole.
You look at the Telluride, and you're like, holy crap. This is not just on par with some of its competitors, not just emulating-- it doesn't really emulate its competitors. It's really its own thing. It's really stylish, and it's really interesting.
The interior is beautiful. And I don't love some of the design decisions-- you know, the infotainment system, which is shared with a lot of other Hyundai and Kia products doesn't look super premium to me. They really need to rescan it at some point, use different fonts and graphics, for sort of the higher tier models or the various brands or whatever.
You know, Genesis right now is, I think, the worst offender here, where they share the basic look of all the screens. And it just doesn't look super premium. But man, it looks really good. And it drives pretty well too.
Yeah, I'm just super impressed with it. I wish the fuel economy was a little better. Fuel economy is not great with the standard V6. This is a vehicle, in my mind-- John, have you spent time in one recently? Because in my mind, this is like a great candidate--
JOHN SNYDER: It's been a few months. But yeah.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): --great candidate to have a hybrid.
JOHN SNYDER: Oh, yeah. For sure.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): Yeah.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): But yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'm hoping I get to drive it a little more this weekend.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think it's a good value too. I mean, you can get-- I'm not sure exactly what they start at, but I believe 41, you could get a fairly good amount of Telluride.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, you get a lot of content.
GREG MIGLIORE: Kias and the Hyundais, you know, they're known. They kind of had to be known for giving you quality features, if you will, because some people were worried about their actual quality. So I mean, the last Telluride I drove, there was a lot of stuff on it. And I think that's great.
Because the last, like, Buick I drove, or actually even-- I drove a couple of Honda SUVs. They didn't have as much stuff as you would think. You're driving this big vehicle, and you think there should just be stuff on it. And there wasn't quite as much as I anticipated. But Kia really delivers in that area.
JOHN SNYDER: Mm-hmm. My wife is, you know, looking to maybe enter the three-row segment. And I'm trying so hard and steering her toward either the Telluride or the Palisade. We'll have to have her on for a "Spend My Money." And you guys can-- you know, whatever you guys get her to agree to, I will stand by.
But I think she would love it. She's one of those people. And the general population-- as car guys, I feel like, you know, we've come to accept that Kia and Hyundais are good cars. There's still a lot of brand stigma out there, though, especially for Kia. Just people think of them as cheap cars.
And gosh, the Telluride is not. It's very nice and comes loaded with a lot of standard features. And it's really comfortable, decent to drive, good to look at. And the space, the use of space in it, is really nice. It's a good three-row vehicle.
GREG MIGLIORE: It starts at just under $32,000 for a relatively low spec vehicle. But even then, you get a decent amount of content with all Kias. I should think this could be an area where with the right sort of feature mix, Kia could really make some hay here. Because people--
Americans love crossovers. They love stuff on their crossovers. And if you're cross shopping and you're thinking, well, hey, I could get this big of a vehicle on XYZ brand, Kia is offering me all of this stuff for something in the, say, low 40s, you're probably going to say, well, do I want to pay $54,000 for, like, a Chevy Tahoe or something? You're going to say take the deal.
Go with a good vehicle that offers you some-- you know, things you want. And I think for people who approach car buying in the way maybe I approach phone buying, like when it comes to car buying, I like to think of myself-- hey, I'm the expert, you know. I think we all like to look at ourselves that way for certain areas.
Comes to phones, microwaves, chairs-- I don't know. I go with the brand I've heard of. Maybe you look up a couple of review sites. If you make a call, you roll with it. You do what fits in your budget. And for probably most of the car buying public, that's how they buy a car. And that's where Kia, I think, can make some gains.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): Well, and you know, while the Telluride, I think, encompasses all that. Like, you know, if you're just looking at, say, what "Consumer Reports" says about it, the feature content for the price, you know, I mean, it's clicking all those boxes, right? I think the point I want to make is for the first time in a while, or maybe for the first time ever, there have been a few recent products I've felt this way from Hyundai and Kia, but the Telluride more than anything, because the look is so unique.
The material quality is so excellent. It's not just standing out as an acceptable entry. Yeah, compare it to the Highlander. It's way more interesting than the Highlander.
JOHN SNYDER: Yeah, absolutely.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): It's way more stylish. The interior is way better built. The materials are way nicer. It feels better. You know, you get all these sort of X factor things that the Telluride nails, and you're like, wait a second. It's not just crushing a Toyota on value. It's actually all around more desirable than a Highlander.
And that is where, I think, maybe Hyundai and Kia-- and they've been trying for a long time-- but maybe they emerge from our main unique selling proposition is value. You know what I'm saying? I think they're finally reaching the point where they're saying, you want to put us up against a Pilot and a Highlander?
We can beat it on style. And we can beat it on touch points. We can beat it on seat materials. It's just like, that just amazes me. You can't see my expression, but I'm trying to, like, do a-- wait. It's amazing to me.
JOHN SNYDER: The Highlander has a hybrid, though.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): It does have a hybrid.
JOHN SNYDER: Back to your point.
GREG MIGLIORE: I will say this. I think, you know, the Telluride, and actually the Hyundai Palisade, which is genetically like the same thing, are both very nice vehicles, very competitive. I think, you know, it's just for some people, they may never be able to, like, buy a Kia. They may never be able to buy a Hyundai. To me, that's kind of their loss.
You've got to open your mind. I mean, we're almost, I think, in this brand agnostic postmodern era, where you kind of need to seek out-- this is going to sound like very millennial, I guess-- seek out the experience of the value that you want versus, like, sort of what you were told is the brand you should buy. And that's where brands like this can win. So I guess that's our little mini-marketing exercise.
Let's do a quick Volvo S60 long term update. Had it for about three and a half, almost four weeks or so. It's a beautiful car. I just drove it to lunch, to let my dog out. And I was back just in time to have this podcast. It's a lot of fun to drive. It steers really well.
Got to check out our intro written by Zach Palmer. That's on the site now. I've got, like, literally five quick thoughts on this that we're going to put up next week with some video on the interior, which is so nice.
You know, the more I drive it, the more I like the little details. Like, some of these things are things we've noticed for a while in other Volvos. But they don't get old. I like an Orrefors crystal shifter. I like Swedish flags pinned to the seats, tiny Swedish flags. I like the lime veneer, or whatever they call that, inlay. It looks really nice-- simple. It's good.
Very rarely do you get in a Volvo and think, oh, my gosh. This color scheme is ridiculous. Other brands-- I would say, there's at least one car at every other OEM's lineup that is crazy inside. And Volvo never does that. So I'm liking the interior. That's kind of what stood out to me in my most recent stint, which was about an hour ago. So yeah, I don't know. How you feel it, John?
JOHN SNYDER: The interior is really nice. Volvo has always done design well, I feel like. And the interior is conservative. But it's still interesting. You don't need a lot of lines, or textures, or different things going on to have it be interesting. I think there's something beautiful in minimalism.
And it's not like bare or anything. But it's definitely far from overwrought. And I really appreciate that. It makes it a very low stress place to hang out. And it's very comfortable. What I've been really enjoying is just the ride. It just glides, but without feeling disconnected.
The different modes are cool too. We had snow and ice. I popped it in hybrid mode. The pure mode, which is the eco mode, the one thing that bothers me is that it's really hard to keep it in EV-only mode. There's always, you know, a lane change or a pass I have to make, where it pops.
The line goes past the electric bolt and into the gas drop on the gauge, and the engine comes on. And then it stays on for a really long time. And I just wish it would default to going back to EV mode way more quickly than it does. That's my biggest complaint.
GREG MIGLIORE: I would agree with that. I think this is actually a car where, in some ways, I think Volvo under sells that it's a plug-in hybrid. To me, that's exactly why I would buy this car. You get this beautiful plug-in hybrid with-- is it 30 miles of range, something like that, that's usable. Again, I didn't hurt the ozone by driving home. The lid blew out. I don't think I burned any gas, maybe. I drove pretty cautiously. And I think it's--
To me, this is a great space for Volvo. Because I think there is a lot of consumers who might, you know, look at Volvo and also perhaps be, you know, LeadingGREEN. And I think they could really steer into that. Yeah, I mean, truthfully, if I were looking to buy an EV, I would look more towards, like, a Volvo style of EV versus, like, the Hummer EV.
I don't know. To me, that's a little more cartoonish. And I think I would personally go with my styling, but that's just me. So yeah, I mean, we're really enjoying life with this car. It drives really well. It's compelling in the sedan segment, which is a segment that I think automakers are-- you know, they're either investing it, and maybe they're still among the leaders, or they're just getting out of it completely.
Sort of like the mediocre, like, number five, number six cars, just in the sedan segment. Like, pick your size. They don't even exist. So I think for Volvo, it behooves them to continue to invest in the S60 and keep it strong. It's a beautiful car, again. You know, I was looking at the hood and the grill, just with the Volvo badge, those Thor's hammer headlights. Oh, those things are awesome.
JOHN SNYDER: They are.
GREG MIGLIORE: And it's a fun car to drive. There was this kind of wooded area right north of the office. And it's got this angled road you can cut through. We actually used it for a Tech of the Year testing loop. And I like to cut through that because it gets me, like, northeast as I'm heading home. And it's just a good place to drive a car.
And I really accelerated, blasted through those turns. And like, you know, it's dusk. The lights are kind of fading. And I mean, that really made me think, man, Volvos are fun to drive.
So you know, I don't know. Maybe that would be a good Super Bowl ad for them, is somebody blasting through the forest with, you know, pure electric power or something. I don't know. It seems like they've got a lot of momentum.
You know, cynically, Volvo still is going to struggle with winning over some kinds of consumers. I think there are some people that might even still wonder if they're in business. You might remember Volvo and Saab almost went under at the same time when Hummer went away the first time.
Saab and Hummer were two of the brands that GM cast off. And you know, frankly, I would have probably expected Saab to come back before Hummer. But what a weird day it is.
So I don't know. I'm liking it. I feel like, you know, we're still sort of in the honeymoon phase, if you will, with this car. So of course, we like it. Who doesn't like to drive a premium sports sedan home with hybrid tech? So yeah, I don't know. Any other thoughts on that?
JOHN SNYDER: I'm sure we'll find some flaws with it. But none of them are glaring enough that we're sick of it in the first few weeks.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that would be actually kind of terrifying if we did find that. Another thing I want to put out, it does sticker for $58, 975, which when you drive this thing, that feels a bit right about right to me. Like, you get a decent amount of stuff on it. There's nothing that peeves me more than getting in a $64,000 BMW that doesn't have seat heaters. I know this is a first world problem.
But this thing is loaded up. It's got all the infotainment things you'd expect, all the creature comforts you'd expect. You know, all the, like, flashy headlights. That's another pet peeve is you get in some luxury car, and they're like, well, you've got to upgrade to this $7,000 trim and then add this extra package added, just to get the headlights that you see in all the press shots. All this stuff is standard. It's a good-looking car.
JOHN SNYDER: Agreed.
GREG MIGLIORE: Any final thoughts. Alex, on this or anything else?
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): No. You know, I really like the current generation of Volvos. I haven't gotten out to Birmingham and driven your long term S60. But I was just on the S60 Polestar tuned, tuned by Polestar. I can't remember what they call it. But sort of that, you know--
GREG MIGLIORE: Polestar engineered.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): What's that? Polestar engineered. That's right. [LAUGHS] You know, there's Polestar of the brand, and then there's what Polestar used to be. And then there's the dealer-installed Polestar chips, and then there's the Polestar engineered versions. It is a little confusing.
But you know, they're really, I think, dialing those cars in. Senses is improved. And all the things I've always liked about modern Volvos is still present. The interiors are still really special. So yeah, I like them a lot, you know?
Would you guys recommend, basing your experience in the S60, long termer-- would you recommend it as to something like a family or friends as a vehicle in that class? Because that's the part where I'm always like, I like these sort of in theory, like in a hypothetical. But would I recommend them to somebody?
JOHN SNYDER: It would be an Editor's Pick in our ratings. I would. Yeah.
ALEX KIERSTEIN (ON PHONE): OK.
JOHN SNYDER: For sure.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think I would. It's one of those things, where, again, we're still in the honeymoon phase with this car. So you kind of want to spend a little more time in it. But I would be leaning towards making this an Editor's Pick when we do eventually rate it.
JOHN SNYDER: I'd say go look at Mercedes too.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, absolutely. But the value seems to be here. The looks seem to be here. Again, you know, we've all beaten the interior to death, how great it is. But I think it's a very nice car. And I also think-- you know, I have actually, when my wife was looking at cars, I was like, hey, look at the V60 or the V60 Cross Country. These are cool.
And we went with something a bit bigger. But I think they're on the short list, when you're sort of telling friends and family, you know, if you're looking at a certain price point, these are worth looking at. That's for sure.
JOHN SNYDER: Agreed.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. All right, well, that's all the time we have. No "Spend My Money" this week. But please send me questions. We've got plenty of time to do this. We love to do it. So yeah, we'd love to spend your money.
Everybody else, be safe out there. Have a great Super Bowl weekend. If you're listening to this before the Super Bowl, we hope all your squares and other activities pay off. Be safe up there. We'll see you on the other side.
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