In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski. Jeremy is fresh off the first drive of the 2024 Jeep Wrangler, and Greg has been driving the 2023 Kia Niro PHEV. In the news, Velocity Modern Classics just added the F-100 Signature Series to its menu, McLaren is donning retro chrome livery at Silverstone and Rivian posted excellent second-quarter deliveries. Meanwhile, Lordstown Motors has filed for bankruptcy. Finally, we help a listener choose a replacement for a 2004 Dodge Ram 1500 in this week's Spend My Money segment.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
TranscriptGREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to "The Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We have an awesome show for you today. We're going to talk about the 2024 Jeep Wrangler. It's a mid-cycle refresh. But there's some pretty significant upgrades that will make your life a little bit better if you're a Wrangler potential buyer-- and also, perhaps, I think, in response to the Ford Broncos entry.
So with that, I'll bring in Senior Editor for all things consumer and Wrangler, Jeremy Korzeniewski.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Howdy. How's it going? I am kind of-- you are right. I am kind of like a long-term Wrangler guy here at "Autoblog." I did the 2018 launch of the JL. And I just did the 2024. Launch of the refreshed Wrangler JL. So yeah, lots of Wrangler history in these parts.
GREG MIGLIORE: I went to a update back in 2011. I did the Rubicon. And it was very memorable.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I bet.
GREG MIGLIORE: But it's been a while since I've done, like, a major Jeep launch like that. Cool. So we should run through a few other things we're doing this week. I'll talk about the Kia Niro plug-in hybrid, which is very efficient. It came with over 400 miles of range.
And it left with over 400 miles of range. I burned through like the 30-some electric miles and then just drove it somewhat sparingly and efficiently. So we'll briefly touch on that.
And we'll run through a bunch of different news-- Rivian, Endurance, that says in Lordstown, F-100 Restomod and just some other things. So we also have some feature stuff. We'll talk about our favorite road trip fast foods.
And we will spend some money. So with that, let's get into the Wrangler. Where did you drive, this first of all? And what was it like off road?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So we went to Saint George, Utah. It's a pretty-- you know, it used to be a pretty small, little area that basically you only went to for doing off-road driving. But more recently, it has really picked up. The population growth has really hit the Saint George, Utah area.
So lots of new highways, lots of subdivisions, and little, itty-bitty town, like little downtown area-- and yeah, a really cute place if you're just looking for a little vacation destination and you like to do some off roading, but you don't want to give up all your creature comforts, St George is a great place to go.
Moving past the location, the vehicle was-- well, I mean, you set it up, Greg, you set it up perfectly at the outset of this podcast when you mentioned mid-cycle refresh. And I think it's important to point out that this is the first major update made to the Wrangler line since the Ford Bronco hit the marketplace.
So what you're seeing is a little bit of a response from Jeep-- saying, like, well, you know what? We've got this long running iconic brand name. And Ford has re-entered into the off-m road SUV segment with the Bronco. But we're not content to just sit there and let them have a product that beats us.
So a lot of the upgrades that Jeep made to the 2024 Wrangler are in response to the Ford Bronco. Naming-- the big one, really, is the interior. Previously, Jeep interiors-- if I used to own a 1990 Jeep Wrangler. It was one of my first cards that I had post high school. And the interior of that thing was-- it was like as bare-bones as it got.
My car didn't come with a factory radio-- I had to put one in-- didn't have anything for floor mats, just had drain holes in the metal floor and just a very rudimentary, squared-off dashboard. That is just not going to cut it anymore. That kind of rudimentary, bare-bones approach just is not going to fly, especially since Ford came out with the Bronco.
And it's got all these extra creature comforts that Jeep is kind of lacking. The big one is the infotainment system. Jeep's Uconnect system has been really good for a long time. But it was on a really small screen in the Wrangler.
Now, it's this big, horizontal 12-plus-inch unit, really easy to use, really fast, totally modern and up to date. And they took the opportunity with the new infotainment system to also launch a new trails application. So one of the issues that people who have these off-road vehicles find themselves is how do you actually find a good trail in your area to put it to the test?
Well, normally, you've got to go in a bunch of forums, looking all over the place. People in your area, like, if you're lucky that there's off roaders in your area, they'll pop up and say, hey, go to so-and-so road go do this and turn left at the big rock, or whatever. Well, now, Jeep has preloaded a couple hundred trails directly into every 2024 Wrangler.
And this is literally all of them, from the sport all the way up to the Rubicon X and the 392, they've all got this same 12.3-inch infotainment screen now. And they all come loaded with these trails. So what you can do is scroll through the list that happened to be in your area, choose the one that you want.
You'll get a description. Its difficulty level, the kind of obstacles, you'll have-- if there's water forwarding it-- there's a 30-degree incline, anything that might be there. And it seamlessly integrates with the navigation and takes you right to the trailhead. And then, it gives you trail markers all the way around so that you can make sure you're following the designated trail.
Alternatively, you can create your own. If you've got a bunch of places in your own town that you're really familiar with, you can drive straight there, hit a button, record it. And then, you can share it with other people. You can add it to this big, huge, long list of trails that are available to people.
So that kind of hits some of the high points of what they've done with the interior and the technology outside the vehicle. If you read our Article on "Autoblog," you'll see kind of, like-- I kind of dissect it into two directions. Jeep had to make the new Wrangler more comfortable with more options. And it also had to make it more capable.
No one's going to say, like, yeah, make it more comfortable on the highway, but don't worry about the off-roading capabilities. So yeah, it's more capable than ever before, too. They now added power seats that can actually be submerged in water to maintain the water-fording capabilities.
They've added a fulf-float rear axle to the Rubicon, which allows for larger wheels and tires, and also simultaneously ups the tow rating to as much as 5,0000 pounds. Previously, wranglers were capped at 3,500, as is the Bronco. So now, Jeep has a unique selling proposition, with an off-roader that could potentially tow a little bit more than just a jet ski or two.
It has maintained its powertrain lineup, with the exception of the EcoDiesel, which wasn't all that popular due to its alarmingly high price. So the range still starts with the 3.6 liter Pentastar V6 engine. I got called out in the comments saying that I must be working for Jeep because I called it acceptable and adequate. But for a low-$30,000 entry into the Wrangler marketplace it is acceptable.
I think people have forgotten what the old 2.3-liter, four-cylinder Wranglers were like to drive. I haven't because I used to have one. So yes, it's an acceptable entry into the range, step up from there, 2-liter turbo; then, of course, the 2-liter turbocharged plug-in hybrid 4xe, which would be "Autoblog" certified recommendation, gives you about 21 miles of electricity and 470 pounds-feet of torque-- excellent.
And from there, you've got the absolutely bonkers and ridiculous 392, which we also spent a couple of hours both off road and on road. You asked me what it's like to drive off road. It is very Wrangler-ish-- still solid, you know, people call them stick axles, solid front and rear.
They all are third-generation Dana axles. They are heavier duty than ever before. Ground clearance still starts in the 10-inch range, goes up to 12.9 if you've got the 35-inch tires, which would mean the Willys, the Rubicon, the Rubicon X-- the 392 sits a little bit lower than that because it's heavier. But it also sits on 35s. We offroaded in a Willys, a Rubicon, and a 392.
Definitely, the Rubicon is-- it's the one that you want if you really intend to do some hardcore off roading. We did touch down a couple of times and in some other models. But fortunately, the entire body is clad in armor, basically. So you can scrape it up. And it sounds bad, but you're not really damaging anything that isn't meant to take abuse.
And the final point I will touch on is for, the first time ever, you can get a factory-worn winch. It is rated for 8,000 pounds, nicely integrated into the front end. It is crash approved. It's directly from the factory. You can only get it on Rubicon models now. But you absolutely should just order it.
It's one of the first things that real off roaders are going to do with their vehicles. Get this one integrated directly from the factory-- seamless install, it all works really well. They demoed it pulling a 5,000-pound off-road buggy up what looked to be about a 70-degree grade from an anchored Jeep up at the top. So it's definitely got the power you need.
And yeah, really, really strong overall package. Where the Wrangler still falls a little bit short of the Bronco is on highway driving. But the Bronco's got a more modern front suspension and steering system. There's not a whole lot that Jeep can do without really altering either the geometry, which they don't want to do, or adding a bunch of electronics to it, which they don't want to do to make it a little bit nicer to drive in the highway it still wanders left and right.
It'll still get caught in freeway grooves that, kind of thing-- still a little bit chattery over high-speed bumps. These are all well-known Wrangler issues. And they're still there in present, just subdued more than ever before, especially if you get one of the street-oriented models.
The high altitude, we spent a couple of hours in a high altitude with the 4xe drive train. And honestly, it's the best Wrangler they've ever made. If I had to lodge any real complaints, it would be price creep, which is really true across the board.
I mean, if you follow "Autoblog," then you've seen, pretty much daily, we run some sort of post that mentions prices going up, destination going up, average transactions going up, length of loans going up. It's happening in the industry. Jeep is no different.
First of all, you can not-- they're never going to convince me that they need $1,795 for every vehicle's delivery charge. It's astronomical. Jeep kind of started that trend several years ago. And every car company has realized-- oh, we've got several dollars of extra profit in every vehicle by upping destination fees. That's a problem.
But you can still get a fun Wrangler-- cruise control, air conditioning, you know, all the basic necessities. And now, everyone comes with the 12.3 inch Uconnect 5 screen 2. And for $35,000, you can get yourself a decent Wrangler. For $40,000, you can get yourself a decent four-door Wrangler.
If you want a Rubicon, you're going to be looking at prices, realistically, in the $50s and $60s. If you want the ultimate new Rubicon X, which is the luxury stuff from the Sahara and high altitude and all the off-road stuff from the Rubicon, you're going to be looking at upper $70s.
And the top dog, hemi-powered Wrangler 392 is literally just a few hundred dollars shy after delivery of $90 grand. Those are shockingly high prices until you look at the competition and you realize the Bronco is a little bit pricier across the board-- starts higher. And model trim for model trim, Ford asks for more money for a Bronco than Jeep asks for a Wrangler.
So I wish that the days of low-cost off-roading, top-off fun was still a thing. But it just isn't anymore. Wranglers and Broncos and the like have just gotten very expensive. It's sad to say, but it's not a trend that's going to reverse any time soon. Fortunately, the product is more expensive than ever before, sure, but also better than ever before, both on road and off road.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, that's an excellent summation, I think, of the new Jeep and also your impressions of it. You know, I don't have much to add because, obviously, I haven't driven this one. I'm anxiously anticipating driving it. The thing that sticks out to me-- this is kind of a salient point, here-- is when I have driven the Bronco, driving it at like those sort of mid-to-high speeds, you know, like 45 to 50 and above, and then on the highway, of course-- you know, it's better than the Wrangler.
I haven't driven the new one. But it was better than, like the last model. And in some ways, it was a little frustrating for me because if I were to ever like say, hey, I want a Wrangler or a Bronco, I spend a fair amount of time on the Expressway, live out in the suburbs. It's just like-- it's a way of life. You know, you've got to be able to be comfortable.
And it's interesting. It shows you what competition could do. I spent Thanksgiving weekend-- this is like '19, probably in an EcoDiesel Wrangler, rolled up a ton of highway miles visiting family all over the area-- not a big deal. But then, I drove the Bronco-- like, I think it was last summer or couple of summers ago.
And I was like, oh, wow-- this area, it's better. So it's a little tricky. Is it enough of a compromise? No. It would still be a very tough call for me. I think I just like the Wrangler a little bit better, to be quite honest. But you know, for me, if I'm like being really metric about it, really practical, highway driving is more important to me than the most extreme off-road capability.
So I think that's a tough area. But all the little upgrades you mentioned, I think, really demonstrate how important competition is for consumers.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I think if you haven't driven them back to back, like some of us in the industry have, it's difficult to overstate how much better the steering is for the Bronco at, say, 75 to 80 miles an hour. You get up to-- we had 75 mile an hour speed limit stretches in Utah when we're doing our drive. And if you've driven Wranglers before, you know exactly what to expect.
It wanders on the highway. It just does. And honestly, as long as they use the recirculating ball steering and solid front axle setup-- as long as that's the case, it's going to be that way. The Bronco doesn't use that. It's got rack and pinion. It's got independent front suspension.
And it's a more modern design. And it is more stable and smooth on the highway. It just is. And that's a choice that Ford made. And Jeep is sticking to its guns too. And I think they're both right. It's right to have the-- it's right to have the consumer make that decision.
You'd have to drive one to feel the difference. I will tell you as a several-time Wrangler owner, it is a significant improvement. It's significant advantage for the Bronco. And most people, if they're honest, are going to spend a heck of a lot more time on highways than they are on dirt.
Is the Jeep better at crawling rocks? Yeah, it is. I've done some serious off roading in both of them. And I'll take the keys to the Wrangler over the Bronco if I'm climbing boulders. But to get there, I'd rather be in the Bronco. So yeah. you've got to make your decision.
I also want to point out, it's not like you can't drive a Wrangler on the highway. You absolutely can. It's totally acceptable. It's just, knowing that there is a better option out there, you really should be aware of it and pick your poison or your passion. Pick your poison or your passion.
GREG MIGLIORE: So be sure to check out Jeremy's review if you missed it, great vehicle, you know, if you're still on the 4th of July extended holiday at this point. If you're listening to this, be sure to check out Jeremy's review, very in-depth. I'm intrigued. It's one of the vehicles-- there's so many interesting vehicles this year I want to drive.
And this is right among them. So let's talk about-- sorry, the dog's just eating something. So let's talk about this Niro plug-in hybrid SX Touring I've been driving-- super fuel efficient. I like the fact that you could get 30 miles of electric range right away. It's a plug-in hybrid.
And it's a pretty small-- I would call it a car. I'm sure they call it like a crossover of some sort. But it's attractive. It has that kind of, like, that blade styling that they did a couple of years ago in the Niro. And I think it's cool. It's very quirky with that sense.
Kia does a good job of giving you everything for not a lot of money, if you will. The basic engine that works with the hybrid is the 1.6 liter. This is their GDI that they've been running for a while. It teams up with the electric motor. And, again, this is where like Kia-- and to another, also Hyundai-- will just fight you on value all day long. Here's all the stuff you get-- 18-inch alloy wheels, power sunroof, smart power liftgate, LED lights, LED projector lights, LED interior lighting, their sort of faux interior leather-- they call it Centex seating material-- heated and ventilated seats.
It's a ton of stuff, if you will. So Kia really will, like, in my opinion-- they'll fight you all day on value. And, to me, it's like, hey, this is it's an economical car. If you want to try to step into the hybrid segment, if you have a long commute, I think, obviously, you can look at it there. Then, Niro itself starts at $26,590.
So you can get all the way up to 54 MPG, too, on the highway. So I didn't drive in a ton, to be honest. I did drive in a fair amount. And I found myself really liking it. I think it's a good value for the segment. And it's you Kias have character. And this has one.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I really like the new exterior design on the Euro. They kind of smoothed it out overall. But then, they added those-- I mean, I don't want to call them Audi R8 side blades, but I'm going to anyway. In certain trims, you can make those stand out by making them either black or silver or whatever, kind of like what Audi did with the R8.
I think it's a really cool design. I know we said we were done talking about the Wrangler, but I just looked this up for the sake of efficiency. So you said the Niro PEHV does 33 miles on a charge, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Ballpark, yeah. I mean, real-world driving, a little-- yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So they say 33. 11.1 kilowatt hours is the battery. So 33 miles, 11.1 kilowatt-- the Wrangler 4xe is 21 miles, or they say up to 25. But Jeep officially-- nudge nudge, wink wink-- says 21. And it's a 17.3 kilowatt hour battery, so a larger battery by a large percentage and a shorter range by a large percentage.
That that's one of those ways that you can go to illustrate vehicle efficiency overall. A Wrangler is shaped like a brick. And it rides on big, wide tires. There's not a whole lot they can do for aerodynamic efficiency. And it's heavy body and frame style construction for off-road vehicles.
The Niro PHEV is a much smarter choice for passenger commuting, with a smaller battery, smaller footprint, better arrow, just vastly greater efficiency overall. I know that's an extreme example. But you can put it in your mind like, well, you know, I'm getting a PHED-- yeah, but you've got to still take into account the efficiency of the PHEV when it's running on an electricity power.
GREG MIGLIORE: One thing I will note the, the trim I drove-- this was called, let me double check here-- this is the SX Touring, MSRP of $39,590. That's starting. EX trim is a much better value at 33,840. Like, you probably aren't necessarily sure you want to pay almost 40 grand for like, you know, a Kia compact car, even though it does offer tremendous value. Average transaction price is like 48 these days. Even 50 I've seen some places.
So there's still some value. But it's just like 4th of July. This is America, you know? We don't want to pay that much money for a small car. But, you know, very, very strong value all the way.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And the EX has got-- it's got all the things that you think you need, you know?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So, nice.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yo. And I've got to do a quick preview. Maybe we'll talk more about this next week. I just got back from the supermarket with my son. He wants us to talk about the Dodge Hornet.
Only drove it a little bit, but I'm really intrigued by it. The car is character. It's interesting. I think it looks good, you know? It's got that-- don't have the specs in front of me but I want it. It's a four cylinder, the engine. It's got that, like, kind of throaty Alfa sound.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I wonder why that might be.
GREG MIGLIORE: I wonder why. You know, part of me feels like if I'm Alfa, I'm like, thanks, bro Thanks for stealing our car, you know? And-- but it's a really nice little crossover car thing, again, much like the Niro. Like, what is it, really?
More to come next week. The steering was really interesting. It was kind of light on set, or it felt a little European-ish. Like you said, I wonder why. I put $154 worth of groceries in the hatch, no problem.
Good visibility. You can see out of it pretty well, even though it's got that kind of like, hunkered down hatch styling. So, you know, more on the drive train I need to sort out. You know, I got to kind of figure out, like, how I feel about the engine and the transmission. They don't work together amazingly, but again, I need some more time behind the wheel to figure that out.
The other thing I noticed is there seemed to be something weird going on electronically. Like, the car alarm just went off. Don't know why. I think it was because the fleet guy dropped it off, and we were already in the car and messing around with it, and I hadn't had a chance to, like, grab the keys, officially unlock it. I think that's why it happened, but I don't know.
And then the rear hatch wasn't working either. I had to, like, manually open and close it. So--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: More echoes of its Alfa Romeo heritage.
GREG MIGLIORE: I drove the Giulietta once, which essentially became the Dart. I really like the Giulietta. It was a great little hatchback, and this reminded me a little bit of that. So, intrigued by the drive, the Tonale, and also the Jeep Compass, so.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Is yours a-- the one you've got, is it a GT or an RT?
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't know. I need to-- literally it arrived like three hours ago. So I need to-- I haven't even pulled the spec sheet out of the glove box yet. So I need to dig more into it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: OK, well, for those listening in, the GT is 268 horse and the RT is 288 horse. I think that's probably the same drivetrain, except maybe with an overboost function, would be my guess.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK. Yeah, I will-- like I said, kind of a preview, if you will, and then more to come next week. Thought it was interesting.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Stay tuned and listen in to the "Autoblog" Podcast.
GREG MIGLIORE: Indeed. I have to get Byron on here, because he drove the Tonale and the--
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Hornet.
GREG MIGLIORE: And the Hornet. So-- and I think the Hornet's a great name, too. I think it's, like-- it's a good name to bring back. I think they could go with Dart, too, if they wanted to roll with that.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, they finally brought it back. They've been sitting on that name for a long time. It's not patented. It's-- they registered it as a--
GREG MIGLIORE: Trademark.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Trademark, yeah, years ago. And they had that really cool Hornet show car, the concept car. It was, like, silver with blue, and it was real mean-looking. The Hornet that they came out with is not mean-looking. It's real-- looks real European.
But yeah, I agree with you. It's a good name.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- you might remember this. This is some insider trivia. You remember when Nissan was going to trade that small Sentra-- I forget what it was-- based car for the Ram, and then they were going to rebadge it as the Hornet, believe it or not. So I think it was a good trade that Dodge Chrysler at the time did not make, because that would-- here's like arguably one of the best pickups, some people think, in a segment, for a small car that was not very good.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, actually, a little bit more insider info on that. That's how-- was his name? Was it Mike Manley, was that who it that was, that was the head of Dodge-- or excuse me, Ram Trucks at the time, moved-- ended up moving over to Nissan. And it wasn't long after that the latest Titan came out, and it launched in that Titan XD.
The Cummins five-liter turbo diesel V8 that Nissan launched, you know-- if you've been paying attention to the auto industry for a long time, this might not be news to you. But if you haven't, that was originally developed and planned for the Ram. Ram decided to go a different route, and they brought in the VM Motori, the Italian diesel, because that was already associated with Fiat. They brought that in instead.
They told Cummins thanks but no thanks on the five-liter V8. The Ram head jumped ship, went over to Nissan, and took the V8 Cummins turbo diesel with him. And yeah, that's how it ended up in a Nissan, out of all vehicles.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know who it was? It was Fred Diaz. It was not Mike Manley.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh, Fred Diaz, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I just thought about that, because I was like, that sounds right, but it's not, because Manley was actually briefly the CEO for a minute.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: That makes sense, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: We're going into some deep cuts here as far as deep 2000s automaker executive trivia.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let's talk about-- run through some news here. Got lots of different things to get through.
F-100 restomod. This is from Velocity Modern Classics. This is cool.
I saw this kind of a little bit last week. Our story is up now, too. Pictures are gorgeous. Check it out.
My big takeaway at this point is just that you're really seeing this era of pickup truck, and to a lesser extent, like, off-roaders like Ram Chargers, Broncos, that type of thing, K5s, getting their due.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And they're really becoming, like, important sought-after items in the collector market, where people want to spend, like, 50 to 100 grand into restomodding them and adding some modern amenities. And part of me is a little surprised by that, because, I mean, you and are both the same age. These were, like, beater vehicles in like the '80s and '90s, and then they kind of disappeared for a little bit. Like, they weren't these special things, you know? They were-- you know, this is before people started really getting them off the ground, adding bigger engines, luxurious interiors. I mean, these were basic things, and now they're moving into the collector space. And I think it's cool.
I saw a guy-- we were up north this weekend in the Upper Peninsula, and a guy was using an old F-100 to put his boat into the water. And I just kind of gave him a little tip of a cap as I walked by, like, that's impressive. You still have your F-100 on the road, and you are towing your boat with it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, that was pretty cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: It was cool. So, I mean, I don't know. Is this a segment that you like? You can take it or leave it. It was always-- to put a fine point on this, to me it was always just so overshadowed by the muscle cars of the roughly same time period that it's just-- I think it's interesting that people are now like, oh, hey, this is cool, you know, as well.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Well, I think what you're seeing is-- you know, it follows the trend of regular vehicle sales, too. You know, when you and I were growing up, passenger cars were quite that. They were cars. They were sedans. That's what every family had parked in their driveway, and the outliers had Jeep XJs or Chevy S-10 Blazers.
But by and large, it was Ford Tauruses, Toyota Camrys, Honda Accords, Chevy Luminas and Malibus and, you know, Impalas, and all those classic nameplates. And that's kind of switched over to SUVs and crossovers. And so it's not terribly surprising that these restomod companies, when they're trying to get a name for themselves, they're choosing to do it with trucks and with crossovers.
So I bring that up because this is Velocity Modern Classics we're talking about. Their most popular product by far is a Bronco-- a restomod Bronco from the '60s and '70s. I'm looking at their website right now, and they've got maybe a dozen Broncos for sale.
Well, more than that. A couple dozen Broncos that are currently for sale in-- starting in the looks like low 200s and quickly climbing into the high 200s. The F-100 that you were talking about starts at 279. And the F-250, which is a little bit raised up, more off-roady, starts at 299. So these are not--
GREG MIGLIORE: Oof, wow.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: --not cheap vehicles. But yeah, I think we're just seeing-- we're seeing the aftermarket and the custom vehicles follow the trends of the regular market. You know, obviously there's an appetite for this style of vehicle, and regardless of the fact that they're wanting 300 grand for them, they're apparently selling.
So I think it's cool. I think it's great. I don't make the kind of money that would allow me to have $300,000 of disposable income to sell on a truck that I'm going to garage and baby and not use, but I'm happy to see that other people are doing.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- not to put, again, too fine a point on this, but my brother and I own a 1973 Chevelle. And one of the things we've noticed is actually restoring the actual car is almost prohibitively expensive, moreso than just buying one or something, because you have to basically redo everything. And it's the same type of vehicle infrastructure from that era. It's a little harder to find parts.
So I can see why these things are so expensive. They just kind of get out the door, you know, you're looking at $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 just to make it back to being a reasonably roadworthy thing. And then if you do all the things that customizers like these guys are doing, that's where you get to make a real luxury item.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. They're all powered by Ford Performance V-8 engines. They're five-liter Coyote-based engines. And, I mean, turnkey packages of those-- if you grew up, Greg, in my age, and you had JEGS catalogs coming to your door weekly, you're used to opening it up and seeing, like, oh, crate engine, long block, and it's $2,500, $3,500. No. They're $25,000, $35,000 now.
So, yeah, we're seeing a reflection of the marketplace. That's just what things cost nowadays. So I'm not surprised that they cost that much. I wish that they could come out with something that was, you know, significantly less expensive for those that want the look and don't need quite that level of luxury and craziness.
But, you know, what we're not talking about here is the man hours that go into it. And the way for them to recoup the profit-- or the wages of spending their labor time on it is by making it as luxurious as possible. You've got to capture those margins.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. So let's-- we'll bop through a few other things here. McLaren, kind of they're, like, wearing their third jerseys, if you will. They're alternatives to throwbacks for Silverstone.
I love it. This is a cool looking livery. I know you and I have talked at length about F1 on here. How do you like these?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I think it's great.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I mean, I look at this and I'm like, man, why isn't this just a livery? You know, they had such cool-looking cars in the 2010s that were predominantly chrome, and like, to me, you know, they pull up to their pit and all of their crew people are wearing those sweet chrome helmets. To me, that's-- I mean, I know that McLaren, their oldest history is with the color orange from the 1970s Bruce McLaren days. But man, these chrome F1 cars, that's where it's at.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting. It's a throwback from 2014. 2006 to '14 is what they wore them. But yeah, I love the chrome look. This reminds me of when they were pretty good. You're right. Orange is historic.
But I mean, even just to like-- when you look at, like, football, you know, I noticed, like, I think it was the Cowboys and the Giants were wearing '80s and 90s jerseys last year. And I was like, oh, that's cool I remember those growing up. So kind of the same vibe here with McLaren, so.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah. Love it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. 100%. Can't wait to see it. You know, like I said, with football, it's like, if a team's wearing throwbacks, I'm more likely to watch the game. You know, Penn State wears throwbacks a lot. Sometimes Ohio State does. You know, my alma mater, Michigan State, literally changes their jersey every week, or helmets. It's like, there's a traditional uniform that they've been wearing since the dawn of time, but then they wear it like twice a year, and then every other week it's something slightly different.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yep.
GREG MIGLIORE: So, but I like it, you know?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, it's cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's cool. It's where we're at.
So let's get a little more serious Rivian's finances are looking a bit better. They beat estimates. You know, they had kind of a rough earlier in the year, but we're seeing deliveries up almost 60%, which I think is important. And, I mean, they're delivering almost 13,000 vehicles in the second quarter. That's significant.
Which will bring me to our next conversation point, the Endurance from Lordstown, which is done, basically. But what do you think about Rivian? And then we can segue into Endurance and Lordstown.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I think you're seeing a tale of deep pockets play out here. So Rivian had just a huge amount of investment to get it off the ground. They took the long-term approach. This has been in the works for a real long time, and they didn't show off a product until it was totally ready to go, because they didn't have to drum up money. They had already done a lot of that.
And then once they came out with the product and wowed everybody-- I think it was the LA Auto Show maybe five years ago. I don't remember exactly. But I remember the first time I laid eyes on this thing.
And I knew that there was a company called Rivian, but even someone who works in the industry, when it finally debuted, I was like, oh, wow. These guys are no joke. They are not playing around with this vehicle. Super impressive. Like, it was kind of, to me, the vehicle of the show.
And then we'll touch on Lordstown. But as you and I both know who have seen that truck up in person, there's some internet clatter if you go on Twitter, if you read the comments on some stories, where people are like, oh, they were, you know-- they were just trying to eke out as much money as they could and line their pockets. I promise you, they weren't.
I visited the factory. I saw the people that were there stamping parts, setting up-- you know, they were working long, hard hours, doing their level best to get this vehicle off the ground. They just didn't have the deep enough pockets and large enough investment that allowed them to pull a Rivian and get themselves legitimately some traction in the market, and that they could sell vehicles potentially at a loss for a while until they turned their fortunes around.
I think it's great that Rivian has done that. I think they're probably-- it's probably safe to say that they're past the point of no return that they're going to go belly up. It certainly doesn't seem like that's the case.
I don't know if you saw the news, what was it, two-- two weeks ago? Rivian actually opened up their factory in Normal, Illinois and allowed anyone in the United States to come to the factory, see them put together a truck, and literally drive away with it. Reading between the lines, what I think was happening is they've got their line set up to build a very high volume of similar trucks with the same size battery, similar set of options, and all they've got to do is say, which wheels do you want? What color do you want?
And so they're able to pump out those specific trucks at a relatively high or comparatively high pace. What they haven't yet done is shown the ability to be like a Toyota, for instance, that can send five different-- well, no, that's an exaggeration-- three different and completely unique models down the same line and have everybody screw them together and still hit hundreds of thousands of vehicles.
So that's going to be Rivian's next step is, you know, being able to let the customer choose from three battery pack sizes, whether they want an off-road package with skid plates, whether they want all these different things that make cars cool and unique. Rivian has not crossed the hurdle that allows them to, like, really build unique builds to the customer's order. But they've gotten at least to the point where they can pump out-- you know, they can sell nearly 13,000 in a single quarter by simplifying their production processes and methods and the number of things that each station down the line, down the assembly line, has to be concerned with.
So it's good news. I'm ready for them to turn that next step, as I know that a bunch of reservation holders are waiting on their uniquely specced trucks have been waiting as well.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I I've driven both the SUV and the truck-- the R1S, the R1T. Much more fully-formed products than the Lordstown Endurance. The little things that are wrong are more like just quirks of, I think, a company trying to figure out-- maybe even overthinking its way into the industry with something like things that are a little too clever.
The numbers are looking much healthier. To your point, I think they've moved past the point of a failure to launch stage like Lordstown. I think if anything, they're in a spot where they're probably a pretty attractive buyout target. You know, like, if you're looking to get into-- and I made this point. I wrote a Lordstown Endurance sort of post-mortem review. I typed up my notes from a group test last fall and kind of looked at some of the things that led to the downfall, if you will.
My thought is, like, you know, Rivian-- I think for all intents and purposes, they've made it for now. Lordstown just-- they didn't have the capital. The car business runs on billions, not millions. They barely had millions.
And, you know, the product was-- I wouldn't call it half-baked. I think I called it 75% baked.
It was intriguing. I thought it looked kind of cool interior was super simple, but, I mean, it wasn't, like, terrible, you know what I mean? Like, you didn't get in there and the mirror or the vinyl was falling off. Like, it was credible.
And I feel like, you know, they had, I would argue, some pretty bad leadership. And it seems like their deal with Foxconn-- which you probably don't know, but you might know makes the iPhone-- that didn't seem to provide anything for really anybody. So-- and they almost got too much press early on. "The New York Times," when they were doing a weekly series on Hulu and FX profiled the Lordstown factory-- this is right around the start of the pandemic, I think. You know, Trump was tweeting about them and congratulating them. Mike Pence showed up.
Like, when you're doing stuff like that, you know, you almost might be better off being in stealth mode like Rivian was for a while, just because they got so much attention so fast that they just didn't make it. I argue that, you know, maybe you have some money. This might be an interesting venture. You want to get into the car business. You've got all the things you need.
I argue that it's slightly cheaper on the upfront, maybe, than buying a professional sports franchise. I would argue no Rivian should touch this, because your finances are already kind of like, you know, you're trying to make them as firm as possible. You don't want to get into this.
A legacy automaker, maybe, if you just start like, hey, we're going to take a billion dollar flyer. I don't know. But I just thought the product-- there's enough there that maybe somebody takes a flyer. I don't know. Jeff Bezos, you want to make cars? This is your chance.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, he-- Amazon was one of the big investors into Rivian.
GREG MIGLIORE: Right.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: And that's actually one of the reasons why it seems less likely to me that Rivian will get purchased by, you know, a bigger entity, is because they've got this big Amazon contract, and Amazon's already poured a bunch of money into it. I wonder if Amazon would be the stumbling block for a big investment or a potential takeover.
Lordstown is an interesting one for other reasons, too. So Lordstown's big-- like, the biggest notch in their belt when they were working on this was that General Motors, for all intents and purposes, gave them a fully-functional factory. There was-- you know, some amount of money changed hands, but if you go back and look at it, it was pennies on the dollar.
And, you know, that was like-- that was the big feather in their cap. That's what allowed them to draw the big investment from Foxconn in the first place. Foxconn wanted that plant.
And, you know, I'm reading between the lines. I'm not, you know-- don't take what I'm saying here as gospel. I'm just-- I'm offering an educated opinion on the attractiveness of the deal.
I think Foxconn wanted that plant. They wanted the ability to pump a bunch of different electric vehicle platforms down those assembly lines. And Lordstown was a means for them to get that. I think they probably were like, well, let's see-- let's see what these guys can do. Let's see if they can put together this vehicle.
And they-- I think they kind of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, yeah, we'll give you money to get this off the ground. But what they really wanted, what was really attractive to them, was not so much the endurance pickup truck, but probably that vehicle assembly line plant. Because they've got-- they've got deals in place to build electric tractors, electric vehicles from other car brands that are going to contract the manufacturing work out to Foxconn, and they're going to be built in northeast Ohio, in the Lordstown plant.
So, you know, I think that was the big chess piece. That was the queen of the match. And I'm not surprised to see Foxconn end up winning that, you know? Lordstown had to knock its king over and resign.
They are suing Foxconn over missed promises. We'll see if anything comes out of that. But in the end, it's Chapter 11. It is liquidation. They're going to sell what they can sell to pay off creditors.
It'll be interesting to see if-- if some company goes in and says, OK, what batteries do you have? What electric motors do you have? What management systems do you have? Like, what do you actually have?
Could they stock a warehouse full of hub wheel motors and battery packs and modules to run them? And maybe-- I think it would be awesome if they could make that available on the aftermarket for vehicle modifications or really cool custom builds. That would be a really awesome way to see something come out of the project.
It seems less likely to me that a car company would do so, because it's very unique technology that they're using in wheel motors, and all the wiring and associated muck that goes along with that. I'm not so sure that a car company would see that as a benefit or more of a drawback.
But yeah. I mean, I'm hoping that at least something comes out of the years and effort that dedicated engineers put into making that vehicle. I hope it just doesn't go to waste, but, you know, we'll see.
GREG MIGLIORE: Do you think the Endurance sort of deserves to survive? Do you think there's enough there?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: You know what? I think-- yes, I do. But I think--
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: I think for them to make a viable product that even fleets were going to buy, it had to be at the right price point, and it had to have-- it had to have enough battery capacity. And I think the battery capacity was fine, or the price point was fine, but the 200 mile range times the $60,000 asking price was too big of a pill to really get orders in the thousands, where people are actually going to set these things up as their fleet vehicles.
But I think there's also a lot of potential for the technology. Like, if it didn't have to be a street legal vehicle, then you can take out a whole bunch of stuff that's unnecessary. Like, could we see electric forklifts made on these platforms? Absolutely. Could we see dedicated utility-style off-road vehicles made on these platforms? Absolutely.
Could someone step up and turn this into a viable product using not the Endurance, so to speak, but the technology behind the Endurance, into a viable product? I definitely think that there's possibilities for that. I mean, look around. Airport tugs, you know, waste vehicles, any number of potential applications for this kind of technology with the kind of power and heavy-duty ratings that the Endurance had.
I just think as a truck meant for public roads, even in a fleet setup, I think the price was too high for the range. Like I said, though, it doesn't mean there isn't a viable product living in that design somewhere. I just don't think that was it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think you do a good job of sort of exploring all the ramifications of what Lordstown could be. I tend to think this is like the first Fisker. They're done, you know?
I argue-- like, my piece says how they could, but I may be being a little overly optimistic, to be quite honest. I think the truck is decent, but, you know, is it worth 63.5, which is what they put in SEC filing last fall for the price? No. 200 miles range is respectable, but probably not for that.
I mean, even look at the Lightning, the Lightning Pro. Ford played around with the prices multiple times last fall and this year. So, you know, I think that's just-- it's tough to make cars, you know? That simple.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: You know what would have been real smart, Greg? If Lordstown/Workhorse would have won the USPS contract to build these mail trucks, they would have gotten the investment money they needed. They would have provided zero-emissions vehicles. 200 miles of range would have been absolutely plenty.
Instead, everyone went a different way, and now we're going to be stuck with whatever it is-- whatever it is the military contract-- was it Oshkosh? Is that what it was?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: So I know they've changed up on that a lot, but that's one of those-- you know, we were talking about possible applications for the technology. That's an obvious one. You know, mail delivery vehicles, short delivery vehicles-- like, in town, zero-emissions, charge them up every day. People don't run 200-mile routes in their short term delivery businesses. It would be a perfect application for something like that. Cards didn't fall that way for whatever reason.
But yeah. I'll end all this ranting by saying, too many people, hard-working people put too much effort into that for me to be OK just seeing it, you know, rot away in some warehouse somewhere. Hopefully whatever they've got ends up at least in some sort of application that it improves the world somehow.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. Sounds good. All right, my battery's starting to run down on my laptop. It's a little hot here. We're running low on time, so I guess we're going to spend some money. Let's do it.
Wayne in Maryland writes again. "I'm back. I wrote about my dream car a couple of episodes back. Now I've got another one. I need to replace my 2004 Dodge Ram 1500. Budget is 45 to 47k. Choices-- '17 to '19 Ram, or-- yeah, '17 to '19 Ford F-150 Raptor, '19 to '21 Ram 1500 Limited.
I like the new 2024 Tacoma, but the TRD Pro is going to be coming in way over 47 grand, so that's true. I know they're different animals, but I think the Raptor is going to be a collector's item in the future, and maybe more fun."
You also see how long he holds on to a vehicle. So that's true. "It will be used as a truck and sometimes a daily. Enjoy the show." Thanks for writing, Wayne in Maryland. So kind of an either/or. Spend My Money. What are you doing there, Jeremy?
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Well, I mean, this is a tough one, because the F-150 Raptor and the Ram Limited are aimed at two very different use cases.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: My recommendation-- if you were to tell me, Jeremy, pick one of these two trucks, I'd take the Raptor. I'd have more fun with it. I remember I hauled some motorcycles in a Raptor once. It's really not set up for it. There was a lot of suspension sag. It's not as comfortable pulling a trailer as the Ram would be.
So without knowing the use case, I'm going to err on the side of Raptor, because I think it is more fun. But if you really want to use it as a truck, and you don't intend on pounding the sand dunes into submission, you're going to find the Ram-- the Ram Limited-- to be more comfortable and more capable of doing trucky things, as long as you're trucky things don't involve going airborne.
But push comes to shove, which one would I'd rather drive? I'd rather drive the Raptor. I love the Raptor. So I'm going to lean in that direction, with the caveat, if you're planning on towing a bunch of stuff and driving it on the highway for long stretches as opposed to the dirt for long stretches, you're going to be more comfortable in the long term with the Ram.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. So I tend to like the Ram a little bit better than the F-150, so my gut is to go with that. I just like the styling, I like the interior, I like the engine offerings. But, I mean, if you're going to throw the Raptor on the table, like, to me, by definition, Wayne's kind of looking for something that is potentially iconic.
I don't think this exact genre of Ram-- very good truck. I don't think it's something that's ever going to be really a collector's item, at least not in the trim that he's looking at. So I'm thinking Raptor, you know? I hope it doesn't bite you.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that they're-- I don't think you're going to find it to be, like, an unreliable purchase that you're going to regret. I will also say, even the range of Raptor that you're looking for-- he said he's looking at 45 to 47-- they're not real easy to find in that price range. I had to cast a very wide net--
GREG MIGLIORE: Same.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: --I live in Central Ohio-- to find a Raptor in the 45 to 47 range, even from that previous generation. There's not a lot of them out there for that price. So if you do see Raptors in that price, maybe it's not the worst idea to buy them, because that might be an appreciating asset, judging from what's for sale around me. I don't know. So yeah, that's just one more loophole to point out.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. Do you have a go-to chicken sandwich on a road trip? Real quick.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Chicken sandwich?
GREG MIGLIORE: Chicken sandwich.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Oh, gosh. I-- you know what? Arby's.
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, I didn't think that. Deep cut. OK.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah, I like Arby's chicken. But I'm less likely to eat a chicken sandwich on a road trip. I usually go for bland foods-- you know, sub sandwiches, hoagies, that kind of thing that's more bread than anything else. Because if I'm going to be trapped into a car for a long time--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, fair enough.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: You?
GREG MIGLIORE: I had the McCrispy chicken sandwich last night from McDonald's. I loved the McChicken for years. They don't really make it how I remember it. So we were driving back, I had some McDonald's-- you know, after, like, the long drive, you're not going to cook-- and I just found it kind of mediocre. It's not mayonnaisey enough. The lettuce isn't what I want it to be.
It tasted pretty good, but I do think the Wendy's spicy chicken is probably the top of the segment for overall excellence. But, you know, that's like, commodity. You want to step up, you got Culver's, you got Shake Shack, but those are slightly more expensive.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: They are, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So that's where I would rank it.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: They are. I'm holding fast and firm with Arby's.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: It's-- you know what I think Arby's does better than other fast food joints is the crispiness of the outer coating of the chicken. I think it's superior. I used to eat a bunch of Chick-fil-A back when I lived on the west coast. There's not a lot of them out here in Ohio, where I'm at.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JEREMY KORZENIEWSKI: But those sandwiches are good, too. They're inexpensive, and they throw pickles on there, which is kind of a unique take on it. But yeah, Arby's. That's my final answer.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's all the time we have. If you enjoyed the show, that's five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get the "Autoblog" Podcast. Send us your Spend My Moneys. Tell us your favorite chicken sandwich for summer. That's podcast@autoblog.com
I want to thank Jeremy and my secret co-host here Andrew for guesting a little bit. Have a great week. Hope you're enjoying summer. Be safe out there.
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In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski. Jeremy is fresh off the first drive of the 2024 Jeep Wrangler, and Greg has been driving the 2023 Kia Niro PHEV. In the news, Velocity Modern Classics just added the F-100 Signature …
