In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Road Test Editor Zac Palmer. They kick things off discussing what they've been driving this week. Greg has been spending time in the 2020 Land Rover Defender 110, and Zac has been driving a pair of super wagons in the 2021 Audi RS 6 Avant and 2021 Mercedes-AMG E 63 S Wagon. Greg follows that up with an interview of Blake Buettner, the managing editor at Worn & Wound, in the final segment.
Transcript[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today is Road Test Editor Zac Palmer. How are you doing, man?
ZAC PALMER: I'm doing good. I've been enjoying the snow that we've been having. Less enjoyment of the salt that has come after it. That is basically time to put the fun cars away, unfortunately. How's it going on your end?
GREG MIGLIORE: It's going great. The snow fell, and I have a red Colorado. That's the Chevy Colorado ZR2 sitting out front. So I'm in great shape. But we'll talk about that in a future podcast. However, in my driveway recently is a Land Rover Defender. Very iconic vehicle. I know you have some thoughts on it.
I spent a good deal of time driving it. One of the more, I would say, anticipated vehicles of the last few years. People are really-- you know, just bringing a Defender back to North America-- I think it means something. It speaks to people. So for me, it was definitely one of the more exciting things I got to do. It's one of those fun things you get to do in this job.
And then we're also going to talk about the comparison that you've been doing, you've been working on. By the time you listen to this, the story probably won't be up. But come back next week. It'll be up on site, probably-- definitely this month, anyway. And that's the Audi RS 5 Avant versus the Mercedes E 63 S-- couple of really high-powered station wagons, essentially. And I'm excited to hear what you think about these and how they-- how they kind of stack up against each other.
And then we'll get into the feature segment for today with sort of a little bit of a Spend My Money mixed in there. We're going to talk watches with the managing editor of Worn & Wound. Great website. You got to check it out. Blake Buettner, who's also a car guy, joins the show. And he's going to tell us about the intersection of cars, watches, and just how people like them both and how, perhaps, you might want to spend your money. So we'll close out with that.
But let's get right into the Defender. I tested this one out. It actually was a couple weeks ago now. But it's, you know, really one of the more exciting, interesting vehicles. Return of such an iconic nameplate to North America. Mine was not cheap. It came at $85,750. This was, of course, the Land Rover Defender 110 X. It came in a color of Eiger Grey. The inside was tan and kind of grey and black, so just, you know, very kind of subtle inside.
It was a handsome vehicle. Just looking at it in my driveway-- it sat there for a couple days before I was able, you know, sort of clear my schedule and get behind the wheel. It's like, almost exactly how I would spec this out as far as just the appearance's sake. I really like my off-roaders to be a little more-- a little subtler, a little more understated.
This-- you know, I'll use the, like-- it's British, so I'll use the cheesy comparison like a British battleship, or a dreadnought, as they used to call them, like, over 100 years ago. Just imposing but also kind of grey and, like, stealthy. It's not as "in your face" as, say, like, a RAV4, especially-- or, excuse me, 4Runner, like, with TRD trim, or even a Wrangler or the Bronco.
But it's-- people noticed it. Driving around town, people would obviously look over and look at that like, wait a minute. What's that? That's a different-looking off-road kind of SUV thing. What is that, you know? And then you see Defender. You see Land Rover.
I'm sure these things will become a little more common on the coast than they are in the Midwest. But I still expect there to be a major, you know, opportunity for Land Rover to grow some share here in Michigan and, you know, sort of the "it's cold here," the upper Midwest-- that sort of thing.
It was pretty comfortable to drive. Steering is pretty good. It's not at all like-- I would say it's sort of like an easier-driving Wrangler, if you will. And by "easier," I don't mean any, you know, disparaging. It's not like-- that's not to say the vehicle's soft or anything. But I just thought it'd handle a little bit better than the Wrangler, which is noticeably harsh. Far better than the Gelandewagen, if you will, which, even in its most recent generation, is still a little bit of a workout to drive.
Lot of, you know, neat styling cues inside and out that are really rewarding for the driver, if you will. So I like that as well. I think, you know, even stacking this up against, like, the Land Cruiser, which-- you know, another Toyota-- which-- I think they're in, like, that same place as far as styling. You know, this is definitely almost like a luxury good in that sense. It reminds me of-- you know, they want-- like, I think Land Rover wanted to walk a fine line here to make it modern, even a little bit cool, and stretch the boundaries.
I remember seeing the Defender prototype at-- jeez, I'm forgetting what European auto show was. I remember seeing it but not where I was. Might have been Frankfurt. Might have been Paris. And-- I guess it could have been Geneva, back when we went to auto shows, right?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And I remember thinking it managed to be contemporary without being-- and also forward-looking but not, like, transformer-like. And I think that was really a good way to do it, if you will.
The interior kind of has this, like, rail setup, for lack of a better way to put it. There's this, like-- like, shelf, if you will, kind of bisecting the cabin. It's cool. It's functional. There's a lot of places to put your phone, your gloves, your mask, as-- you know, as you need that for a while. You know, places for your water bottles-- that sort of thing.
Infotainment was fine. I mean, honestly, I would say, you know, you get into some of, like, the off-the-shelf, like, Land Rover stuff, and you don't really overthink it with the Defender. Just use the best thing you have and make it work. For me, the Defender is much more about, like, off-road capability.
I did briefly get it onto, like, a dirt gravel path. Had some fun there. Far more capable than anything I was actually able to really do with it. Do check out our review. We had a Defender drive earlier this year. One of our writers was able to take it into the English countryside, and he really-- he put it through more of its paces, to use that cliché. But very capable, very stylish. And I think it's very compelling, too. It definitely brings the Defender to a new generation-- of Americans, anyway. And it's cool.
You know, I've actually-- sidenote, I've been watching season 4, now, of "The Crown," a British show. There's Defender all over that show. And that's cool. Those are the old ones. It got me thinking, like, well, that is the idea in the head for some people, you know? Especially Americans who haven't had the opportunity to drive one. Is this going to measure up? You never want to make a vehicle that doesn't live up to its storied past. It's tough to compete against a ghost, if you will.
And in that case, I think Land Rover faced a steeper-- a stiffer challenge than, say, Jeep does, 'cause the Wrangler has just been around, you know? People know what a Wrangler is. You know, the Defender goes away. It's got to come back here. Well, how does the modern reality measure up to that great, you know, historical context that you may have driven, perhaps, overseas or something?
Same with-- you know, the Bronco faces a similar thing, although they've been so overtly retro with that-- at least the styling-- that I think that's going to get people 85% of the way. And then, by all accounts, the drive character is going to be there.
So you know, long story short, the Defender-- we've known it was coming to North America for a little while now. And then it took a little while before it actually got here. They did a good job of getting the word out. And then there was that sort of interlude. And you know, I would say it really-- it's measured up, if you will. I know, obviously, there aren't many Defender press loans. So I drove this. But I know you have some feelings about the Defender. You know, what do you think?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. Yeah, no. I mean, so you hit on probably about the most controversial part of the Defender coming back to America is there at the end, talking about the original Defender and how it measures up to this new one, which is a wholly different beast.
You know, it almost feels like, you know, if Land Rover would have tried to please those people and build, you know, like this body-on-frame, solid axles, you know, actual Wrangler competitor. It just-- I don't think that it would sit right in America at this point. Like, it doesn't mesh well with the rest of Land Rover's lineup with the Range Rover and the Discovery. It just-- you know, it doesn't feel right.
And from your thoughts there, it sounds like, you know, what they have put together here is, you know, a lot more comfortable alternative to a Wrangler. And that is something, you know, that everybody-- you know, we have the Bronco coming back. That's also going to be a semi uncomfortable off-roader, like the Wrangler itself, I think, that having that alternative of a luxury car that is, you know, almost, actually, as cheap as the Wrangler in some of its lower trims-- obviously, yours was $86,000. But you can get a Defender, you know, in the high 40s, 50s, which is same price as, like, a medium spec'd Jeep Wrangler at this point.
And yeah, I'm all for them bringing it back this way. I think that they'll get a lot more sales. I think that, you know, for the way that people use these vehicles, you know, it's still incredibly capable off-road. But you will have that on-road comfort now that it's not basically a farm truck with a Land Rover badge on it like it was not too long ago, actually.
So yeah. I mean, from your impressions there, it sounds like, you know, they've executed it correctly. We'll see how the reliability of Land Rover holds up. I know that that's been an issue plaguing JLR in the past with tech and just things breaking. And so that was definitely one of the bigger things that appealed to people with the old Land Rover Defender, 'cause it was just so simple. You could fix anything on it. And now, well, you're looking at a super modern, high-tech vehicle and super modern, high-tech costs that come with it. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: The one I tested-- that's a great point you bring up there. And I think it's really interesting, Land Rover's approach. The one I tested was very expensive. You know--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --base was, like, 80, almost 81, and then with a couple of options. It was almost 86. It was very nice. This was, you know, again, basically the top-- one of the, if not the, top trims, not including some of, like, the limited, you know, models and things they did for launch. 395 horsepower, 406 pound-feet of torque, eight-speed automatic. This is all-wheel drive with-- they call it a twin-speed transfer case.
So I mean, it was-- you get a good deal of performance here. You know, until recently, when Jeep mentioned that they were going to bring back, like, the-- or, not bring back, put the 392 in the Wrangler, this was a segment where there weren't a lot of powerful engines. So that's something Land Rover did kind of bring to the table to break things up.
The Land Cruiser and then its-- like, its Lexus counterpart-- those things just had old V8s. And those things are huge. So even if you were getting, like, 300 and whatever horsepower, you weren't r-- you were lumbering along still. I remember being at a stoplight thinking, oh, I'm going to blow this guy away. I've got a V8. And he just, like, obliterated me 'cause it, like-- between the way that V8 slowly, like, unlimbered, and then the way the-- whatever ancient transmission is in that thing-- it took a while. And I'm just like, well, that was embarrassing. I feel like a jerk.
So I think Land Rover does bring some powertrain ingenuity to the segment, which I think is a really good thing, you know? And I think, obviously, this is one of my favorite segments in the industry. I think if you're an enthusiast, you love this, even if you're not much of an off-roader.
My off-road preferences tend to be more, like, give me the trees. Give me the trail. Give me some mud. Even some water is great. Less of a rock climber. I-- you know, I've been fortunate to do the Rubicon and some of these other trails that you can do even locally. There's something about going up a really hard object, crashing down and thinking you're going to tip over that I don't find enjoyable. So I'm definitely more of, like, a-- put me on, like, an outdoor adventure. And that's where I think vehicles like the Defender are great-- and, of course, the Wrangler as well.
Again, to your point, there, Zac, the way they're like-- like, you can get one of these relatively cheap, you know? "Cheap," air quotes-- 40s, 50s. But if you want it to be, like, a luxury vehicle, go all the way up to 85, 86 grand, and it's there for you as well.
I wonder if that will pose some identity questions for it. But I suspect it won't simply because Land Rover is a luxury brand. I don't think you have to make that mental calibration as to why you're paying 86 grand for a Land Rover. I think it gets trickier-- and we say this all the time about Wranglers-- oh, geez. That Wrangler we tested that, you know, had almost nothing on it was, like, 57 grand, you know? And you're like-- you know, and that's just, like, middle of the range for them.
So you know, Jeeps are expensive. Off-roaders are expensive. In some ways, though, I think Land Rover can get into that area a little bit easier than even, you know, Jeep and Ford, for that matter, too. Like, the Bronco is going to, you know, get up there if you want a higher-tech, higher-spec one.
But yeah. I mean, I think-- they did a good job, I think, also, again, of making this feel like-- there's a feel of retro to it. And it will appeal as, like, a luxury good to some people who just want to look cool. But there's also a lot of capability there. And it's definitely more subtle.
And you know, another thing, too, I thought about, sort of going through the journey of this thing from concept to, like, you know, being, like, confirmed, and then to actually being here-- I've seen one at dealers. I've seen them at dealers now. They're on sale-- is that, in real life, I think it actually looks a little bit better than it does in some of the pictures, you know what I mean?
Like, the real pictures. Like, the cartoonish press photos where it's, like, driving up the side of the Grand Canyon-- well, yeah, it looks tough. But just your normal shots-- my initial impression was, oh, geez. That's a little generic. That reminds me of an old Kia Soul. You see it on the road, though, and you're like, oh, yeah. That's right. That's a Defender. OK, you know? And it's almost, you know, cool without being too over the top, which is-- if you can sort of thread that needle, that's a really good thing. So--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, no. I really, really liked seeing it. The first time I saw one was actually at Goodwood-- not this--
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm.
ZAC PALMER: --year, but the year previous. They had one sitting there. And you know, a few of the things that struck me-- you have these-- this really wild tailgate design where it's almost like individual little rounded-off squares. Looks totally different than any taillight design I've ever seen on a car.
And then you also have the-- a steel wheel option, which-- you know, that, I think, appeals to maybe somebody who wants, you know, an oldish-school-looking Defender. But you know, maybe they don't, you know, want to go with the whole-- you know, get a 20-year-old Defender type of deal.
But yeah, no, it's a really, really good-looking vehicle, you know, just like the Bronco is an extremely good-looking vehicle. I mean, none of those cars, you know, actually, you know, are bad-looking in this class at all. But no, it definitely gives me some retro vibes. I still haven't seen one on the road. I am-- I'm looking forward to seeing more of them out there. So I'm not really sure how initial sales have gone, but I know that there was definitely a whole lot of attention on any post that we do about them.
GREG MIGLIORE: The steel wheels-- that's a great point. I actually really like those on-- they were available on the Gladiator for a while. And I think the Bronco is offering them. Give me those all day. I mean--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --those and maybe some beefy tires. That's the look I want for this. Don't give me these, like, fancy spokes or, like-- you know, I've-- as I've gotten older, I've found I really like subtle wheels. Like, give me the matte wheels, the dark wheels, things like that. And-- you know, and again, things like this-- it really-- it sits well, if you will.
And again, you know, I was looking up-- I was just configuring a little-- [CHUCKLES] Configuring a Defender 90. I mean, you can get one for, like, 46, 47 that looks pretty good. It's the two-door one, which I think a lot of people will get into. I had the four-door one, which I would probably-- this might sound weird. When it comes to off-roaders, I like four-door models. I always have liked the four-door Wrangler, even though I know it's not the purest one. So yeah, I think I'd probably go four-door for the Defender, too. Just adds a little bit more heft, a little more gravitas, if you will.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I don't know. I think that's it for the Defender for me. I enjoyed it. You'll-- eventually, I'll get a story together here for it. I've got-- you know, I was telling Zac, off the camera, or such as this is-- off recording-- I've got about a third of it done. I just need to kind of get some more space and get that going. But yeah, let's leave the Defender there.
But you had a really interesting week a while ago here with the RS 6 Avant and then the E 63 S Wagon. So couple of the hottest station wagons you can buy-- [CHUCKLES] couple of the only sort of performance--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --station wagons you can buy. I'm curious. How do you judge these-- like, in a sort of comparison test like this. Do you-- what are the-- like, the traits that you look to differentiate each other-- from each other?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. So this, of course, being a performance wagon comparison test-- I mean, one of the big things you look at-- you know, how good is it at performance driving? Handling, acceleration, the feel. I mean, in a way, these things drive like sports cars. And it doesn't really compute in your head that way. But I mean, these things are pretty much as quick as supercars were 10 years ago, which is mind-boggling. But you know, so number one, you know, you see which one is the better performer.
And then, obviously, with a wagon, you know, they have huge utility on top of that. Both these are pretty similar-sized wagons. But you know, you check out back-seat space, cargo space. You know, how easy is the thing to park? All of these little, you know, niceties that you'd expect in a family vehicle. You might want to put some kid seats in it or something like that.
But yeah. Then on top of that, you know, I think, at the end of the day, with cars that are like these, they're very emotional purchases when you're looking at something that's, like, $130,000, as both of these wagons were. The Mercedes was 135, and the Audi was $131,000. You really have to narrow down to, you know, how the car makes you feel when you're driving it.
And that's-- that-- you know, it can drive a winner. It doesn't necessarily, you know, pick the winner in a comparison test like this. But I think that that makes a huge difference as you're going through all the numbers. You know, I-- we have a full chart full of-- full of quantitative and qualitative, you know, sections that we go through. And yeah, so I did that with both these wagons. Like Greg said, the actual story is coming next week. But what other-- do you have any other questions for me on these crazy wagons?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, so one thing I'm-- the funny thing about wagons is-- we were talking a little bit about the Defender here, too-- is, it's different, you know? It's different than the Wrangler, than the 4Runner, than the Bronco. And for me, that's, like, the definition of why you would want a performance wagon. You get a little bit of functionality. But I mean, obviously, if you really need to haul stuff, you could put a fair amount of stuff in here. I shouldn't be too cynical.
But you know, it's-- you get this 'cause it's different, maybe because you're a car person and car people like wagons-- that sort of thing. So I think that, to me, makes these things special. And I always find them really enjoyable to drive. Obviously, you did this sort of comparo. I didn't get to drive them, which is fair 'cause I got to drive the Defender. And [CHUCKLES] we're not swapping cars, right?
ZAC PALMER: If only.
GREG MIGLIORE: Tell me about the motors, though. Like, these are two-- like, RS 6, E 63 S. Yeah, they happen to have a little bit bigger wagon sort of situations, as far as that silhouette. But I mean, just these motors are brilliant. You know, I've driven them, obviously, in the nonwagon versions. But that's got to be just a thrill to drive these things.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, they both have four-liter, twin-turbo V8s, hot V design. They're both stupid powerful. The Mercedes has 603 horsepower, 627 pound-feet of torque. And the Audi has 591 horsepower and 590 pound-feet of torque. So off the bat there, you know, at that amount of horsepower, it might not seem like, you know, about a 30, 40 pound-feet of torque difference, you know, makes a huge difference in the drive, but it really, really does.
And you know, on top of the Mercedes feeling like it just has, you know, that small, extra step over the Audi, the actual experience of driving it-- it's a much more, I guess, sort of savage driving experience in that you feel more connected to the powertrain. And one of the things that I think contributes to that is, the AMG has active engine mounts that'll actually stiffen and soften based on your drive mode. The Audis are fixed.
And you know, those active engine mounts are something that Porsche actually uses when you spec the PDK option. And just like in Porsches, the whole chassis feels like it comes alive. And you feel that zing up the revs, like, through your bones, through your whole body. It's a really involving experience that-- you know, you get that in the Mercedes. You don't get-- you know, there's something lost in translation with Audi. It's not as immediate. It's not as, you know-- as, you know, personable of a connection between driver and the engine.
And on top of that, you know, the actual response of the Mercedes engine-- it's a little bit better than the Audi. There's-- it-- you would hardly even guess that the Mercedes engine is turbo-charged. It just-- there's, like, zero lag from the time that you put down your foot to the time that you are getting, [SNAPS FINGERS] you know, a reaction from the car.
The Audis-- there is a little bit of a lag there. Obviously, if you use a launch control, which both of these super fast wagons have, the Audi's lag goes away. But for everyday driving, just going in and out of traffic, the Mercedes engine is a little bit more responsive.
And I think that the actual transmissions do contribute a great deal to that as well. The Mercedes has this multi-clutch transmission, sort of like a Porsche PDK with more clutches. And the Audi uses the ZF eight-speed, which is a torque converter transmission.
Now, the-- that ZF eight-speed is stupid good-- like, very, very fast for what it is. I love it in every single car that I drive it in. But the Mercedes is quicker. It's snappier, responds quicker to your paddles shifts. And you know, that extra sense of immediacy with each shift that you get-- it's just a little snappier and crisper. It makes a difference and makes the whole experience a little bit more visceral. So you know, that's sort of where I fall on there.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: I mean, both are stupid-good engines.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: But I would-- I would probably give the nod to the AMG as far as a performance engine.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, that's a good way to put it. It's interesting you say that because, at first glance, I would almost-- my gut would be like, well, give me the RS 6, 'cause I really feel like the RS 6 is, like, a special thing, whereas some of the Mercedes-- they're all so good, it's like I'm penalizing them for being good across the board. But that, you know, goodness can almost feel a little bit, like, ubiquitous.
When you get in an Audi, I feel like, you know, there's a little bit of a-- I don't know. Maybe it's just Audis. I mean, they don't sell as many Audis sometimes. So like, there is this, like-- there can be this special feel. But I don't know. I mean, I also have driven Audis in great places. Maybe that just-- for me, they hold a special place in my heart. But I can't argue with Mercedes', like, unquestioned sort of, like, excellence across the board when it comes to, like, interiors, styling, inside and out, the engines, and then their chassis tuning.
When people ask me, like, "where do you rank the different Mercedes versus their Audi or BMW counterparts," metrically, I always put the Mercedes ahead for exactly-- for reasons like what you just said, is, when you look at, like-- and you're using it-- using, like, the very high performance-- like, that nugget, if you will, is, like, the way to frame your argument.
But for me, it's like, there's a million little things like that that translate into why Mercedes tend to win in most of the segments in which they compete. It's like, oh, the door trim. Oh, their infotainment system is better. Oh, their transmission over here is a little bit better tuned. And that's why they--
You know, more often than not, I end up recommending them, you know? And then I'll say, hey, well, if you just-- you're a BMW person, well, yeah, get the 3 Series. Or, yeah, the X7 is cool 'cause it's this enormous BMW SUV. That might be your thing if you've been a BMW person your whole life. And just, the Mercedes-- I might say it's better, but you're not going to love it. So that's usually how I end up rationalizing those arguments. Same with Audi.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. And I actually managed to go through that whole spiel without even talking about how they sounded. The Mercedes sounds a lot better. You know, it snaps and crackles and pops on downshifts, and it has this sort of metallic zing as you're going up the rev range, where the Audi is just sort of this, like, bassy baritone, like, lowish, aggressive growl.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
ZAC PALMER: And it's just-- it's not as good. And it's also quieter, which is-- you know, if you're talking wagon family vehicle, it's actually a point in the Audi's favor there. It's definitely more refined feeling. It's more comfortable to just drive around town casually than the Mercedes.
You know, that's the other side of that transmission argument as well. The ZF eight-speed is smoother. You know, you hardly even would know that you have nearly 600 horsepower under the hood of the Audi if you just leave it in comfort mode and drive along. It's a total sleeper, in that sense, where you can drive the kids home from practice. You know, they fall asleep. They're not going to wake up if-- you know, if you treat the throttle like a Faberge egg, or--
But in the Mercedes, that's a little tougher to do. You know, there-- it feel-- it sounds like there's less sound deadening in there. The exhaust, even in its quietest mode, is definitely louder. And just everything about the experience is, you know, amplified just a little bit higher than the Audi's is when you have them in their full comfort, you know, boring driving mode, so to speak. [CHUCKLES]
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. So--
ZAC PALMER: Awesome.
GREG MIGLIORE: --these are station wagons. Did you put anything in them? Costco run, curbside pickup, kids--
ZAC PALMER: So I--
GREG MIGLIORE: --dogs? I don't know. [CHUCKLES]
ZAC PALMER: I didn't have to do any, like, massive grocery runs, but I--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --I do have a set of luggage that I typically use for luggage tests that I ended up doing. So I have, like, about six pieces of luggage in total-- some full-size suitcases, midsize, smaller bags and whatnot. And the Mercedes is a hair bit bigger in back than the Audi. If you actually are looking for, like, that maximum cargo capacity, the Mercedes' shape helps that, in that the Audi has this very heavily slanted and angled rear window action going on, whereas the Mercedes is more of a square back.
So you can stack more stuff back there, and it-- you know, if you're stacking two longer suitcases, they don't get cut off in the Mercedes, whereas in the Audi, there's a good chance that, you know, if you have some extra-big luggage there, that angle is going to actually cut into where you're at.
As for, like, rear-seat space, they're just about equal. You really can't go wrong with either of them, even if your driver's, like, 6 foot 5. You're going to be able to sit back in the rear seat and have no issue at all. So I mean--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --if you're looking at one of those, like, five-seat crossover, you know, super high-performance-- like an RS Q8 or, like, a-- I don't know, like a GLE 63 S-- something like that-- you know, you're going to-- you're probably going to be happy with a wagon as well, which-- you know, and it's going to be even better to drive, too. So you know, utility-wise, these things are really, really good.
GREG MIGLIORE: The only, I'd say, compromise-- what I think of, like, when you talk about the wagon versus the crossover debate-- is sort of the--
ZAC PALMER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --ride height. And to me, it's a double-edged sword. I love the low-slung sedan feel of the wagon. I feel like there's almost, like, a mental thing about driving a wagon that's, like, long and low. You feel so in control. But I mean, especially when the weather starts to flip like this, sometimes you like to have that extra, like, however many millimeters it is of ground clearance to plow through snow.
Maybe it's early and you don't want to plow your driveway. You just want to-- kachow, get over, you know, what the plow guy did to, like, sort of box you in the night before. That's where some of those bigger crossovers-- and then you almost get into, like, the rough and tough-- like, why people think they need an SUV like the Defender, where you can conquer the snow and the ice and all that.
But again, you know, with these, I believe you said they-- like, [INAUDIBLE] on these things, right? So it's like, you're getting the performance and the security, if you will, as much as you can. Slap some snow tires on them, and away you go.
ZAC PALMER: Exactly. Yeah. And even-- you know, even if you do need a little bit extra ride height, one cool thing with the Audi-- you can-- you can actually lift that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes. That's cool.
ZAC PALMER: Both of these cars have air suspension. And the Audi can go from its, you know, standard ride height up 0.8 of an inch, which sort of makes it look like a rally Audi. I was-- I just hit the button in my driveway and went out and looked at it. I was like, whoa.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: This thing is way off the ground all of a sudden. [CHUCKLES]
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a great look.
ZAC PALMER: But--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a really good look.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. Yeah, no. I mean, that's-- you know, if-- as you mentioned looks there, you know, if we're actually going to compare both of them on, you know, which looks better, I have to say that the Audi is probably my favorite looking as well. I think that, you know, it's a little bit more aggressive. And just the Audi's design language, as of late, I think, has been, you know, slightly better than the Mercedes.
Now, Mercedes did update the-- this wagon with that big Panamericana grille that they've been throwing on every single AMG. But you know, I think that with the Audi's extra-wide hips, which are wider than the Mercedes, looks a little bit more aggressive. You have that-- the huge 22-inch wheels on the Audi, which are, you know, sort of a double-edged sword. Look fantastic. Do not help ride quality. But you know, all those things combined, I think the Audi is just a little bit more handsome and even sportier looking than the Mercedes.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Now, I'm curious. Is there anything else out there that, if you're an enthusiast in the wagon segment, that you would at least throw into the discussion? Maybe not as high-powered as this, but just-- you know, the wagon segment has been sort of slowly kind of compressing after we saw a bit of a revitalization there for a few years. I mean, is there anything else out there that you would say, hey, you know, if you're an enthusiast, check this out? You might want to at least benchmark it against these two?
ZAC PALMER: Yeah. I mean, I would absolutely recommend the Porsche Panamera Sport--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
ZAC PALMER: --Turismo. That's a real obvious one that would compete against these two. Now, if you want a Porsche version of that that is as fast as the Audi and Mercedes, you're going to be paying way, way more. You can obviously get one for cheaper with a lot less power. But I think, at that point, both the Mercedes and the Audi are probably going to be more fun to drive with a lot more horsepower and a lot quicker.
Now, if the power is not exactly, you know, the number-one thing for you, then you can go with the A6 allroad, which is brand new, just like the RS 6 Avant-- you know, another really good-looking wagon. You know, you do have to deal with the black plastic cladding on it.
It's not, you know, your traditional, you know, sleek car-like wagon. They have to jack it up and make it look a little like a Subaru Outback with all the cladding. But I actually saw one the other day with black paint on it. Fixes it. You know, it-- the black plastic sort of just blends in. The car looks low. It looks good. And yeah, it looks like a pretty normal wagon.
Beyond that, I'd say there's also the Volvo V90. I just had one of those, I want to say, about a month ago. They just updated that wagon. Gave it a little more tech. Made it look a little nicer, in my opinion. And yeah, that's another fantastic option. You get Volvo's twin-charged four-cylinder. Super, super comfortable. You know, obviously Swedish good looks. I think that the V90 is probably one of the best-looking cars on sale today of anything.
Now, does it drive as well as the A6 allroad or the new E-Class All-Terrain? I don't think that it-- that it would. But if you're not, you know, super about, you know, the huge driving dynamics, you just want something utilitarian, extremely handsome, I think it's an awesome option.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. Yeah, V90-- one of my favorite cars on the market. Drop-dead gorgeous. And obviously, you know, again, you talk about things that are special that are different than what, you know, sort of you see more commonly. You know, a Volvo wagon is definitely one of those.
Granted, the Volvo wagon was, to go back to the term "ubiquitous"-- for years, that's, like-- was the essence of Volvo. Obviously, that part of the market is not particularly lucrative these days, although they-- and Subaru-- have found a way to sort of make wagon/hatch crossover things kind of work. But yeah, it's really an interesting, I think, part of the market.
So check out this review. It's going to be up on site probably later in the month. You're going to listen to this-- hopefully you're listening to this all this weekend, you're enjoying the first weekend of December. But come back later in the month for that. Check that out. That'll be under Zac's byline. I'm really excited to read that. Can't wait to check it out.
ZAC PALMER: Yeah, I'm--
GREG MIGLIORE: So--
ZAC PALMER: I was-- I was just going to say I am-- I'm writing it as we speak. I am similarly excited to be writing it. It was-- it was an epic week with these two wagons. So excited for this story.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds good. We'll leave it there. All right, Zac. Well, thanks for joining us this week. We're going to transition this part of the podcast to our special guest, Blake Buettner, managing editor of Worn & Wound. Again, very cool watch website. He's going to join us here. We're going to end the show with, of course, sort of like a watch Spend My Money mixed in the conversation. And we'll leave it there.
Joining us now on the podcast is Blake Buettner. He's the managing editor of Worn & Wound, one of the foremost watch websites anywhere. Lots of cool stuff. You should definitely check it out. They show up in my Instagram feed and basically all of my feeds all the time. Blake, what's going on, man?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Hey, Greg. How are you? Thanks so much for having me.
GREG MIGLIORE: Absolutely. Absolutely. You are one of the resident car guys, actually, at Worn & Wound. And we have plenty of watch fans here at our site. And I thought it'd be kind of cool to do a little bit of a collaboration here-- a crossover. But let's talk, first, all about just, when you look at kind of the car scene and the watch scene, where do you see some overlap, I guess, in your opinion?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Sure. So I guess the last-- boy, probably five years, maybe even longer than that-- the real trend has been kind of on vintage, both in watches-- and I find a lot of the same kind of vintage interest with a lot of car guys. So a trend in the watch scene has been the kind of look-back into kind of rich histories and back catalogs of some of these brands, and then resurrect some of their most popular designs.
So you see this in the form of kind of reissues or limited editions. And sometimes it's just as simple as, you know, a preaged loom kind of built into the watch to make it look like a vintage watch. And then sometimes you have watches that just have not changed in a long time or change very subtly over the generations. The Rolex Submariner is a really good example of this.
So a lot of people that have been into the vintage scene and have kind of come into the watch world through that route are also big fans of vintage cars, obviously, right? Who isn't? So, you know, old 911s, you know, old Group B cars, even-- stuff like that.
I see a lot of crossover in these areas more so than I generally notice, at least, with the-- you know, the latest SUVs or whatever. I guess the exception to that might be something like the-- you know, like the new Bronco, [CHUCKLES] which I think has kind of a broad appeal. So [INAUDIBLE] this is kind of generally where I notice the-- most of the feedba-- most of the crossover.
GREG MIGLIORE: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm also kind of curious your take-- we'll cover this every now and then, too, because, you know, a lot of people, when they identify with a car brand or a watch brand-- they like to buy all sorts of things that go along with it. I-- a few years ago, I actually visited Maranello and the Ferrari headquarters. And they basically said, hey, we kind of want to be a luxury brand.
Now, a lot of the car people would maybe not love that sort of mission statement. But it's also true. You know, they are a luxury good that happens to be a racing team and be a very fast car. So you know, obviously, they have collaborations with all sorts of luxury goods.
What do you think of when you look at some of the-- like, the formal collaborations, like, between, like, automakers and then, like, watch partnerships? Like, you know, there's a lot of different ones out there, like Rolex, many others. Does it seem forced, or do you think, like-- maybe as a watch guy and a car guy, you'd want to kind of get on board with that? Or do you prefer to just kind of more, like, sort of identify those relationships yourself?
BLAKE BUETTNER: You know, I think it's always preferable to identify those relationships yourself. And that might be from the people-- you know, your racing heroes or whoever it is that you identify with the most and kind of seeing what they just wear in their off time. To me, it always kind of speaks so much louder than the more formal relationships that you see.
And that's really tricky territory. And it's something that's been done a lot. I think maybe one effective way would be, you know, some of the sponsorships you see-- the Chopard on the Porsche LMP1 cars, for instance. You know, I think that that makes some sense. But generally, I think you want to find that authenticity and that kind of balance there. You know, when you see, like, Tom Kristensen wearing a Daytona or something like that, to me, that goes a lot farther than, you know, what I see on, like, the wing plate of a car.
So and then, you know, there's all kinds of crossovers where you get, you know, the car brand, like, appearing on the dial of a watch, or, you know, even a piece of an old version of the car that's been incorporated into the watch somehow. And you know, you always see these in kind of limited editions. I know the Ferrari [INAUDIBLE] would do stuff like this.
You know, I think, as true kind of-- you know, the thing that appeals to me and a lot of people that I know about watches is their kind of practical nature. Even though it is-- just like you mentioned about Ferrari, it's still a luxury good, right? Like, it's nothing that any of us need. We all have a phone in our pocket. It's all easy enough. And you know, certainly, nobody needs a Ferrari to go from A to B. And-- you know, and even less so to have a watch strapped onto their wrist.
So I think it's important to kind of recognize it for what it is, that just having one at all is kind of a luxury. But at the same time, the reason that we identify with them is not because of its luxury-good status, you know? Like, vintage Ferrari collectors, I'm sure, don't like to think of themselves in that manner. And you know, I see a lot of guys that buy them-- that buy the Challenge models-- to go-- to sit alongside their road cars so that they can kind of do their weekend track thing.
And you know, that says something, I think, a little more interesting about them than purely, you know, I had a lot of money, so I just bought this Ferrari or bought this-- bought this Rolex, or whatever it is, right? So I think that, to me, is a more interesting story to tell about yourself.
GREG MIGLIORE: Very cool. Very cool. Now, you're a car guy. You actually lived in metro Detroit for a little bit. Tell me about, like, what kind of cars you're into. Have you owned any interest in cars? Where-- you know, tell us about your automotive passion.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, I-- my interests are pretty broad. I generally kind of land in-- I like the European sports cars--
GREG MIGLIORE: Who doesn't, right?
BLAKE BUETTNER: --like we all do. Exactly. But I mean, you know, when I-- when I moved to New York, I had a Toyota Tacoma with a six-speed manual. And you know, I sold it. My wife told me I couldn't be bumming around New York in that thing. But I've had, you know, 350Zs, 370Zs, the Saabaru actually would-- I took-- the day my son was born-- a few days after-- we took him home from the hospital in a Saabaru-- the 9-2X Aero. You know, I've-- you know, I've had the WRXs. And you know, all that kind of stuff I've had and certainly enjoyed.
You know, I've-- my eyes are usually a little bit bigger than my wallet in that regard. I had been chasing down an E39 M5 for a number of years. But those seem to just get a little bit more and more out of reach. And then you have a PPE done on one of them. And it's, you know, a lot of work that comes along with owning it. So I will get back to that-- to that point. But being in New York, I'm not at a point of needing a car just yet.
GREG MIGLIORE: That Taco-- that is-- what year was that?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Oh, it was a 2018.
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, nice. OK. So we just did-- not recently. About a year and a half ago, we did a midsize pickup truck test in the Taco. I mean, it didn't score as well as some of the more-- the newer models because it hadn't been sort of updated in a while.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: But it's a truck that the staff, like, uniformly loved as far as just, like, how it looks, how it drives, especially, like, you know, in TRD trim or something like that. So I really, like-- I'm with you there. A number of our guys have actually owned Tacos over the years. We had a guy who lives-- who used to work for us and lives out in Washington state. And he's owned at least one or two Tacomas. And I think he sold it and got an old 4Runner. So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --I get you. I really feel like Toyota's, like, truck and SUV game is really strong right now.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Oh, absolutely. I tell you, I've-- I got more comments on that thing from other guys than I think any other car that I've ever owned. And it was-- it was no problem getting rid of that thing when the time came for it, sadly.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. They hold their value quite well, too. So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah. But as far as other car-- I mean, I'm into the World Endurance racing and stuff like that. Dabble in Autocross just a little bit. And then, you know, I just find older cars really interesting. And--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --you know, back in the heyday of, you know, '60s, '70s, '80s, I feel like there was a lot of interesting things going on. You know, I feel like, right now, the WEC is kind of-- feels like in a slightly transitional period. So you know, I think, you know, my son and I always make time to watch the Le Mans 24-hour race as best we can, here in the states, at least.
And you know, that's the kind of stuff that I look forward to and I enjoy reading about, along with the new cars from the manufacturers-- you know, the new GT3 from Porsche, the 992 generation, I believe. You know, that's something that I'm excited about, even though--
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --I probably won't end up buying one any time soon. But I like geeking out over that stuff the same-- the same way I do over, you know, kind of high-end watches and, you know, the mechanicals of it. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, same here. It's funny. I would imagine-- I'm not sure how old your son is, but mine is relatively young, so he gets up quite early. And especially when he was a baby, we would get up and watch F1 races just 'cause they were-- here in the United States, they're six hours behind, I guess, or ahea-- whatever.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: So you can-- you know, you have a baby sitting next to you, and you could watch, like, you know, live from Silverstone at, like, 7:30 in the morning. And it's perfect sense 'cause, you know, you're up, and you're watching it live, and you know you don't have to worry about seeing the results on Twitter or something.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: This year has been weird, obviously, but--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --not so much. But yeah, no, that's cool.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we do-- he's eight, and so we do a lot of the same-- we have our own kind of rituals around that stuff, which is--
GREG MIGLIORE: Got you.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --which is a lot of fun. And so--
GREG MIGLIORE: So he understands--
BLAKE BUETTNER: [INAUDIBLE]--
GREG MIGLIORE: --it, then.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah. He understands it. It's hard to hold his attention for something--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --like 24 hours. But--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: But you know-- you know, seeing the cars and hearing them and all that kind of stuff-- it's-- you know, he gets a real-- he gets a real kick out of it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. So let me throw some-- I guess do a little watch geekery, if you will. You know, put on your-- like, your watch-expert hat. I'll throw some brands at you. And I'm curious-- 'cause a lot of-- a lot of the Autoblog editors have a range of watches. And you know, they spend all sorts of different levels of money, you know? We have guys who have Rolexes, TAG Heuers. And then, of course, there's, like, the impulse-- like, oh, here's a cool new Seiko. I think I should get that. Oh, sweet. It's $90. You know, let's do that.
So I'm curious. Like, you know, for about $300, you know, and if you're looking to just get, like, you know, interesting watch, watch that will have-- be a good discussion point, what are just some good brands to maybe be on the lookout for? And specifically, I guess, I'm looking for a dive watch. So if you want to cater to that segment, I'd love to hear your take on it.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, sure. So there's three bands that kind of jump to mind when I-- when I think of that price range. Two of them are kind of smaller independents, which is what we cover a lot of here at Worn & Wound. They are a band called Baltic--
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --which is run out of France. They just released the new-- a new GMT watch. They have kind of classically styled dive watches in that price range with automatic movements. They are very kind of referential to the-- you know, the greats of the past, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: You know, from Blancpain, and Rolex, and-- but it's not, like, a straight-up copy of those. There is some real originality built into there. Another one would be Lorier. And they are based here in New York. And you know, another kind of small independent. But they've got, you know, kind of big personality. They wear very well-- the proportion very well. You can tell that they take a lot of care into the designs. And the other one is going to be Seiko.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: I mean, always is. All of us here at the office are huge fans of Seiko. And you know, you generally-- it's just kind of like a default answer when somebody--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --asks for a recommendation who might not be super into watches into watches, but they want something that they're going to get a lot of enjoyment out of, that's going to last, and that's going to be just, you know, kind of an all-around quality watch that's got some style and that you could walk into a room full of watch nerds--
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --and-- you know, and not feel like you're-- you know, like you're being left out. So in that price range, maybe something like the SKX. You know, a 007 would be a good one. But they have a lot of options kind of in that price range that are really fantastic. We've got a few favorites around here, you know, like the SKX models, the Turtle models. And then all the way up to-- you know, up into the $1,000 price range, they've got just fantastic divers as well. You know, watches like the SPB143 or 149 are kind of staples around here.
So those three brands would be my suggestions to kind of keep an eye out in the, you know, $300 to $400 range.
GREG MIGLIORE: Very cool. No, appreciate the insight. And that's, like, a lot of, like, when-- you know, back when we were in the office, you'd walk across, like, the row of cubicles, and you'd see different people having-- oh, that's an interesting-- you're looking at that Seiko today. Or, oh, hey, where'd you get that deal, you know? And it's--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --you know, exactly like you said there, Blake. It's a very attainable brand. You don't necessarily feel like, oh, wow. I'm making this big investment for this watch I'm going to, you know, knock around or crash, you know, head on, like, you know, in your car or in an airplane or something.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You mentioned some like, micro brands and sort of, like, the boutique brands. That's where I think is, like-- like, non-real, like, watch, like, experts like you guys are, where I think some of us and some of our listeners start to wonder-- you know, you're like, well, hey, that looks cool, and it's not cheap. Should I spend the money on that? And you know, that's where, like-- you know, we get that question a lot when it comes to, like, different types of cars, especially sports cars, 'cause it's like, well, it's too good to be true. Can I get that much car for that money?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Some of the brands I've come across, and I know some of-- you know, our other folks have seen-- is, like, Oris, Scurfa. Baltic is one. It's good to hear that, you know, you say is good.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, what's your take on some of the micro brands? Again, like-- again, Scurfa and Oris, if I'm saying that right, and any of the other ones that come to mind that are on your radar.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah. So first of all, I mean, Oris is definitely on our radar around here, and we're all pretty big fans of that brand. And they are doing some pretty-- they're making some pretty serious moves as watchmakers these days. So they have built their own movements that used to go in kind of bespoke watches. But they actually just came out with a new movement, the Oris Calibre 400. That-- it has a 10-year warranty. It's antimagnetic. It's got a lot of really impressive features that I think you're going to start seeing in a lot more of their kind of mainline watches, which is great.
And that's a hard thing to do, obviously, right? That separates them from a lot of other kind of, you know, micro brands or small independent brands, of which there are many [CHUCKLES] these days. And it can be-- it can be tough to differentiate, like, you know, what's worth getting. So-- but Oris is definitely a safe bet in that realm.
Another few would be brands like Farer or Christopher Ward. You know, in recent years, brands like this-- brands like these have made pretty big strides in just the quality of product that they're putting out. So you know, this year alone, I-- you know, I think we've seen a real shift in the quality offered by brands like this.
And you're still going to get a lot of, like, just real small brands that are still kind of working on that, like, fit and finish, I would call it. You know, with brands like that, you're going to get a lot of that, you know, real just kind of-- you see exactly what you're paying for, you know?
And these brands have a lot of watches in the kind of 800 to 1,500-- maybe up to 2,000, a little more-- price range-- so not cheap, but certainly kind of in attainable territory for-- you know, for people, I think-- and are kind of making great strides in their designs and, you know, again, in the quality of their finishing and stuff like that.
But don't look at most of these brands expecting, like, you know, real fancy, you know, complications or technical-level finishing or anything like that, or even in-house movements, really. I think, you know, once you get into that territory, that's when you move into, like, the Tudors of the world. And like I said, you know, Oris is-- does have the new in-house movement. So you know, that might be something that you'll see a little bit more of. But generally, that's a very hard thing to do and requires a lot of resources to do well. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting when you look at-- there's so many choices, like, you know, in these-- you know, these brands. It's a little cliché to say, like, well, it's like beer, you know? All these different flavors, different brands. Maybe you've heard of them. Maybe you haven't. Maybe in a couple years, what you thought was your, like, insider secret is, like, the third-biggest beer company in the world or something. It's not all that different than electric vehicles, too, though. Like, there's a lot of small startups. Like, you know, I can remember when Tesla and Fisker were both small boutique shops. Fisker went under, and now they're kind of back. Tesla, of course, is, you know, the most valuable car company on the planet. You know, you're looking at some other startups like Bollinger-- just a range of them that are out there that can offer you this thing.
And then the question, though, is, is like, wow, that's six figures. OK. You know, what's it going to be like in five years, you know? Whereas, if I buy a Toyota Prius, I know where to go to get it fixed.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, exactly. I remember when Tesla came out with the Roadster. I mean, that was-- that was ages ago, it feels like.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: What was that? 10 or 15 years ago. And that was just-- you know, that's just what they did, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: It was-- that Roadster was $110,000--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: --or whatever it was, like, back then. Pretty small, not the most practical thing in the world. And now it seems like that technology has just kind of been democratized enough to where, you know, you start to see it in-- you know, it should be seen everywhere, right? Like, in our most practical cars that we use every day, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm very excited about, like, the implications of making electric vehicles more available-- widely available. We had a long-term Chrysler Pacifica that had-- that was a plug-in hybrid. And it was a game-changer, to be, again, cliché. But you got 30 miles of electric range on that thing, which, running around town, doing errands with the kids-- you know, you can just get home or get to work and charge it, and boom. There you go. Now, granted--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --you take a longer trip, you know, you're back to driving just a V6 Chrysler. But it's little steps like that. And then, you know, whoever can get that secret sauce and really roll it out, I think, is going to make it-- make it way-- you know, way better for the rest of us in society--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --and all of that stuff.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah. Do you think it's-- the inclusion of this kind of technology in the kind of high-end racing world that's pushed the development of it so quickly?
GREG MIGLIORE: I think it's helped because you get some of the best engineers in the world working on this stuff. So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --all of the sudden, like, you know, people would go back to KERS-- you know, kinetic energy, you know, recuperation-- like in F1 push to pass--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: 10 years ago, that was like a moon landing. Now it's like, well, heck. I had that-- like a Nissan or something. You know, they didn't call it that way. But it was extra boost to improve performance. And when I drive a performance car, I would say this-- I almost, like, expect it, you know? Like, if--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --especially if you're going to pay north of, like, 50, 60 grand for a car, you know? And Mercedes has done a brilliant job of integrating it into some of their more sophisticated six-cylinder engines, but even higher up in the range where--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: --like, hey, suddenly I'm getting that extra juice off the curb. Or maybe-- like, you don't get any pure electric range out of it, but you get a little bit more fuel economy. I almost feel like that's almost becoming the cost of admission, you know, in the luxury game, especially-- you know, especially for the luxury makers that also want to be sporty. And who doesn't? So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I think-- I mean, was it the LaFerrari that came out and it had, like, the button-- and like, the kinetic energy recovery button that you could press. And that was, like, such a big deal, and that technology had to be explained, you know, to the average Joes. And now, like you said, it's just something that you kind of take for granted. I'm sure that'll date the car or just be one of those quirks that make it so special, like, down the line, right? Like all the supercars of that generation-- the P1 and the 918.
But I think, yeah, it begs the question of, like, where do you go from here? And it's something that I think a lot about with cars, like, with every generation kind of pushing horsepower and 0-60 times and stuff. Like, where does it end? And you know, the new GT3 kind of had me thinking about this the other day with, well, what's the RS going to be? And how is that going to top the 991.2 GT3 RS? You know, that thing just seems so unbelievable. Then the GT2 RS-- I mean, all these cars just kind of feel so bonkers.
Like, does it have to shift away from, you know, OK, it's-- you know, we've got to the point of 0-to-60 times that are in top speeds and all that kind of stuff. Like, let's focus on other things, right? Like the-- how it feels to drive it or-- I don't know. Like, where do they go from there?
GREG MIGLIORE: It's interesting, too, because I think we're at a point, too, where, like, you're going to see cars, like, maybe throughout the '20s, if you will, break down into a couple of buckets. It'll be, like, sort of like-- like what we're discussing-- like, incremental performance that maybe is a little green but it's-- you know, makes the car faster, quicker, better.
Pure EVs, which I think is where the whole world is going to change. Like, you're seeing-- Toyota did a great job of, like, moving the conversation in making it seem like, well, why wouldn't you have an SUV that's all electric, you know? Other companies like General Motors and Volkswagen were capable of it, but they weren't necessarily going down the road of doing it. And now you're seeing that, hey, consumer demand is there for that. And case in point, boom. The GMC Hummer is all electric. It's going to be like, all sorts of, like, you know, hundreds of miles of range. And Cadillac is going to be very heavily electric in the coming years. And then you're going to have, like, the other stuff that's going to fade into more, like, of kind of a niche territory, like the analog stuff. Like, do you want to drive--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm.
GREG MIGLIORE: --a Subaru BRZ? Sweet. You get a boxer four-cylinder and a manual transmission, and that's, like, your sports car. And then there'll be this probably-- I would say relatively large area of just, like, appliance cars, you know?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Mm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Where it's going to be, like, your V6 Camry is your V6 Camry, you know?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And then car company will start sprinkling electrification even onto those, as long as it's profitable. I think the reason they haven't is it's not been profitable to say, hey, we're going to give you five extra miles per gallon on your Camry--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --you know? So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah. But like, at a certain point, like, a faster 0-to-60 time becomes less impressive.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Like a-- like an all-electric Camry and, you know, whatever, I can probably do, you know, just as fast as 0-to-60 times as, like, the most exotic sports cars of 10 years ago. So I think, you know, you have to start putting a premium on other things if you're, like, an-- if you're an enthusiast of cars, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
BLAKE BUETTNER: If you get like, that kind of enjoyment out of it.
GREG MIGLIORE: The other thing, too, is, I think it'll become, like, as an enthusiast, what do you want out of your car, too? Do you want that, like, razor-sharp handling? Is it a style play? You know, how much, like, 0-- you know, how fast do you want your car to go, you know? I mean, we're seeing 0-to-60 times, like, 2.1, 2.5. You know, it used to be like, wow, your V6 Mu-- or, your V8 Mustang would get below 5, and that was quick. And that wasn't--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --even that long ago, you know? Now it's like, well, jeez. My Nissan Rogue could do that or something, you know?
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So it--
BLAKE BUETTNER: And that's fast, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: It is fast.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Or am I crazy?
GREG MIGLIORE: You're right.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Like, that-- that's quick, I feel like just in everyday uses. And it's-- like, honestly, it's the same-- it's the same thing with, like, mechanical watches, right? Like, often, the quartz, you know, watches are going to be able to tell time much more accurately than the mechanical watches. But the mechanical watches cost a lot more, and there's a lot more artistry there, and you get enjoyment from it in other ways. And maybe it'll be the same with cars, like, moving ahead, you know?
And you know, the certain kind of sports car will just-- you want that analog experience, right? And I remember having this, you know, argument not to go too far down the road 'cause I'm sure there's passionate opinions on this, but-- you know, like the PDK shifting faster than anyone ever could.
So I think when the 991 GT3 came out, it was not offered with a manual right off the bat-- and to me, that's just, like, missing the point. That's like saying, well, yeah, this Timex can tell time more accurately than, you know, this [INAUDIBLE]. But I'd much rather have that [INAUDIBLE] because it gives me more enjoyment for other reasons, right?
And when I'm just using a car for my own enjoyment, I'm not really keeping track of, like, the millisecond of my shift time. Like, I'm looking for the kind of connection that I have with the road. And that's why people still buy Miatas, right? I mean, this is-- this-- maybe this should be where sports cars are heading.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, and I think it's interesting, too, when you think of how, like, people, like, value these different approaches to, like, what their car could do and what, you know, maybe-- you know, how electrification can play into it. And like, the transmission is a great example, you know? You talk to race car guys, and they're like, well, I don't even want to shift. I've been driving manuals since I was, like, five, you know?
I remember I had a conversation with Andy Pilgrim, who used to race on, like, sports cars and all sorts of things. And he was like, yeah, I don't care about shifting. He's like, I want-- give me the-- you know, the dual clutch, or the PDK, or just-- you know, I want to go faster. I want to beat the other guy. Give me every other tool you can.
And then, you know, you'll filter it down to maybe some of more, like, your-- like your gentleman racers who just want to, like, have fun. And maybe they're like, hey, let's do more, like, privateers, if you will. And they want to, like, just shift.
But then, you know, you'll even break it down to, like, us as, like, sort of, like, you know, writers, editors, car evaluators. And we're like, well, [CHUCKLES] the dual clutch is pretty amazing. You know, I think--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --maybe I actually-- I want that, you know? 'Cause the manual transmission-- you know, the other secret-- sort of like the dirty secret-- is, like, car companies aren't really investing a whole lot of money in manuals. So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --you'll get in one, and you're like, oh, jeez. This is a little too retro for me, you know? This isn't as good as I-- like, this is fine in college or, you know, whatever. And now it's like, oh, this manual's kind of rough, you know? So--
BLAKE BUETTNER: Yeah, yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --it's really a moving target.
BLAKE BUETTNER: It's like winding your own watch up, right? To use it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
BLAKE BUETTNER: It's like, oh my gosh. What do I-- I have to wind this thing up? What is this?
GREG MIGLIORE: Exactly. Exactly. Well, cool. We can leave it there. Blake, thanks for joining us. Check it out. Worn & Wound. It's a great website if you're just into watches. Obviously, you can read Blake's writing there as well. And listen to their podcast. It's a great show. I've been listening to it while I walk my dog. She's definitely well-versed now in watches and what I'm thinking for my next watch purchase. So thanks again.
BLAKE BUETTNER: Greg, thanks so much. This has been my pleasure.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. Thanks again, Blake. Great conversation. Thanks for joining the "Autoblog Podcast." Thanks, Zac, as well, for your insight on, of course, the Defender and the Audi RS 6 Avant and that Mercedes E 63 S. It's been fun this week. Everybody, be safe out there. Good luck with your holiday shopping. We'll see you next week.
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