The only difference is that Toyota is ready for it...the Big 3 aren't...SO YES...continue to blame the Trick 3.

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By using the UAW's own propaganda:
According to them, the only reason those auto workers down south have had it so good, is because the automakers there have been matching wages with their union brothers to keep the UAW out.

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The per hour wages aren't the problem. The benefits for retirees are one of the problems. And the other is the work rules.

Toyota doesn't match either of these, because the work rules are ridiculous and because they haven't been in the US long enough to have significant retirees.

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Ahh the work rules myth again....

" Those sorts of efficiency-strangling rules have been negotiated out of contracts over the years.

The rules that do remain mostly involve legitimate safety concerns, he said, and don't hurt efficiency. For example, fixing an electrical problem still requires a union electrician. "If you are not a trained electrician, you can kill yourself," he said. "That makes sense.""

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/19/autos/auto_bailout_labor_issues/index.htm?postversion=2008121914

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" Those sorts of efficiency-strangling rules have been negotiated out of contracts over the years.

The rules that do remain mostly involve legitimate safety concerns, he said, and don't hurt efficiency. For example, fixing an electrical problem still requires a union electrician. "If you are not a trained electrician, you can kill yourself," he said. "That makes sense.""

You should hear the stories from some co-op engineering students who worked in plants. They couldn't even open a fuse breaker box to see if it had anything in it. It *had* to be done by a union person. Your going to tell me that's for safety reasons? Even the full time engineers who designed these things aren't allowed to do something so simple.

IMO they make sense to require trained individuals to do the work, but to have to wait for a specific union person is just another thing the company does NOT need.

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I'll stop harping on it once it is no longer true. I grew up in Flint and my father and step-mother worked for GM (now retired). My father was involved in negotiating the UAW contract at his plant once. Later it (Flint Metal Fab) was the lead plant in a nationwide UAW strike (the 2nd most recent now).

You can point to cnn all you want, but although chips handlers may not be UAW anymore, there are still plenty of cases of work rules (and work habits, like breaking the line when it is already behind quota in hopes of being paid to show up Saturday when the line is fixed) that keep Michigan area UAW plants' labor costs higher than at other plants around the country.

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Yes, Doug... Industrial electrical feeds include 480 volt three phase power. That is not the kind of ordinary circuit panel like in a home and only a trained individual should be opening that box for many reasons including safety and legal responsibility. It's very dangerous and potentially deadly not just to the person in the panel but to anyone around. However, I happen to know many electrical engineers who work in union plants and they do in fact work in the electrical panels. But there are specific safety requirements per OSHA as far as what training and personal safety equipment is required. You don't just open up a three phase panel.

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Well, LS2LS7?, like pointing to CNN or CITING SOURCES as it's called, you too can say whatever you like. Would you like to provide some sources for what you claim? These kinds of activities you describe are grounds for dismissal and it's been increasingly harder for the UAW to protect people who insist these activities.

You mentioned work rules. I pointed out that they have been largely eliminated. Now you want to bring up activities from the union's militant past. The game goes on...

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We aren't talking a 3 phase panel. I understand the need for trained people, however they take it to the extreme in order to promote the union, no care if they screw the company or not.

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^Uh, genius, sabotage is a fireable offense and so is taking your time. I know, because I was a machine operator and worked on an assembly line at Buick and I had to work with skilled trades regularly.

If the line breaks down, it's because management won't pay to fix it (or, some guy fucked up and his ass is being chewed out for slowing down production). Time and time again, I've seen then hold things together with glue and duct tape when buying a new part would save them in the long run.

Furthermore, work rules are entirely negotiated at a local level, and General Motors has no qualm about shutting down locals that are stubborn and obstinate, while rewarding those who concede to their demands.

^^To the guy above that: I know graduated and employed engineers. Having a degree doesn't qualify you to work on a machine. I know of plenty of people who thought otherwise and either made the situation much worse or injured themselves pretty badly.

One time there was an engineering student who came in to check on a job in my area. She wanted to see down the conveyor where the parts go, turned her head, and let all of her pretty hair get tangled in the rollers. Ripped a huge chunk of it out before someone could get to the E-Stop.

Fuses and breakers have enough electricity going through them to fry a man. I remember when they told me to start turning the lights on in the morning; the box was directly above a spot that was habitually flooded with coolant (mostly water). This is an operation that requires thick rubber gloves (among other things) when the ground beneath you is DRY.

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Right back to square one, Doug. What extreme are you talking about? I know engineers who work in these plants and they do indeed open and work in electrical panels both 120 volt and three phase, if properly trained. An ordinary 120 volt circuit box such as those used for turning lights on and off can be accessed by almost anyone, even in a union plant.

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This not about the UAW but the OCAW... My father worked for Texaco in research for over 30 years. By union rules if a light bulb in his office burned out he could not replace it himself. He had to call a union electrician to change it. That is a waste of a company's money, money that could be better spent elsewhere, like creating more jobs!

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People still say 'fanboys'? Wow. That's so 2007...and so 4th grade.

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no need to wait, Jeff. the Japanese, German, South Korean, French, British, and Swedish governments have already taken care of that with their respective manufacturers. no need for the begging, and dog-and-pony show we had here in the US; the other countries know how vital their auto industries are.

it's especially interesting that the Swedes did it, as their two carmakers don't even have Swedish owners. I guess it must be national pride, something that is sadly lacking here in the US.

AZMike

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