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Keith Martin was bounced from the auction for commenting that muscle car prices might be peaking.

I find that a good indication that Barrett-Jackson is corrupt.

The bubble will burst.

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I've been to a number of BJ auctions over the years and have bid but never bought from them. Why? I've been able to do better outside the "auction arena"

That being said, the last few years have been different. Some thoughts.

Have you ever been to an auction unless run by beginners where there isn't some shilling going on? Come on it happens on E-Bay too.

Why do you think people go to an auction, come on, to try and get a better price. The amount of times that happens is pretty small. Auctions are there to make money.

The reality of muscle car pricing? Please, all you have to do is watch or go to other auctions to see there is very little reality with BJ.

BJ is entertainment and the focus is on money for BJ more than the cars anymore. The sellers might do very well also. The buyers? That's a whole different story------- You can find many of these cars outside the auction arena for the same or many times much less and no buyer/seller fees.

If you want to see what really happens after the fact watch or go to the other auctions. Guess what? Some of those cars that sold last year at BJ are going for a 1/4 to 1/2 the price.

Entertainment/Auction supposed good deal, Uh Huh.

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Let the scam of an auction go out of biz! Someone gets bounced because of freedom of speech? Another website "talked to" by BJ? Who do these people think they are? God? They make me laugh. They're a little full of themselves. and $100k for a classic muscle car? yeah i think it's a bit puffed up. Classics in good condition are worth something but not a crazy high price.

I wouldn't buy from them either, just too many "questions" of their practices. No thanks.

Oh what? BJ is going to come "talk" to me for posting my thoughts too? hahaha.. whatever.

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Google cache still has the original... took some digging to find, but here it is (scroll down)

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:hPSESpjNOHQJ:fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/feed/+Westworld+site:http://fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

--chuck

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it's always easy to take potshots at the leader in any field.

I've sold two cars at Barrett-Jackson, both in 2003. the first one was in Scottsdale, and the second in Palm Beach. did great with the Scottsdale car, not so great with the one in Palm Beach.

2003 was the first year for the Palm Beach auction, and that's probably why the bidding didn't get that high. but guess what? I signed up for it, and I'm a big boy. I'm not going to start whining now that I didn't get "full price", and blame someone else. I can be responsible for my own decisions.

it's hard to explain this auction if you have never actually been there to experience it yourself. I think the one thing that escapes non-attendees is the sheer spectacle of it. it is not only a status symbol to sell here, it's a status symbol to BUY here. the money that floats thru here is just unbelievable.

the buyers (and sellers) have changed tremendously in the past ten years. the average buyer used to be some old fart with his trophy wife dressed head-to-toe in gold lame and mink, buying old Rolls Royces and Packards. now, the buyers and sellers are wearing Harley t-shirts and jeans, buying muscle cars.

I certainly can't speak first-hand about whether the muscle car trend has peaked, but I'm sure the market will dictate this, not the opinion of some writer.

Mike

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It's reasonable to conclude some heavy duty legal muscle was applied. Journalists don't often retract entire items. The best a complainant gets is a clarification.

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B-J would be crazy not to take a little advantage of the Rolex-clad rich boys who like to compare the size of their pee-pees on national television. Nothing forces insanity like a big ego and these spoiled rotten n'er do wells are perfect for a big set up.

Shill bidding, although highly unethical, is just a way of getting people to bid more than they know they ought to out of sheer ego and pride. It's the manifestation of "a fool and his money are soon parted." It's what baseball clubs do to the Yankees and Red Sox every year - run up the bidding, knowing they can't have a player but they can run the price up for the wealthy guys.

What needs to happen has already started. The people looking for value have left B-J and buy cars at relative bargain prices outside the big tent. They leave the pee pee measuring to those with more money than sense.

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I've always thought the prices they get are way too high. And I feel sorry for those who have paid those prices when they try to sell the cars for anywhere near waht they paid.

There are very few classic muscle cars worth $100k+. Those prices should be reserved for the "true" cars, not the many "clones" that are sold
thru their auctions.

As far as them "running" people...well, that's a risky business unless you can gauge just how badly the guy being "run" wants the car. Because if you guess wrong and he stops before you thought he would then "you" the auction would own the car (since there isn't a reserve to get you out if it). If they are doing that then they are some really ballsy dudes.

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I had heard the bar is open and free. That might have something to do with it. Many bidders seem to have more money than sense and a need to prove it to the world. Many seem to think it gives them celebrity status being there, especially "ferrari hat", what a jerk. Team these up with free booze and wallah.

Although the quality in most cases seems to be top rate, I do know of a supposed Hemi survivor car that one of the Mopar magazines proved in great detail that it was anything but. It does go to show that if you're going to invest this kind of dough, you should have your own experts doing checks on the authenticity of the vehicles, no matter what the reputation of the establishment is.

Oh well, it's a free country, to each his own. I did like the auction I saw recently (might have been a re-run) where they weren't getting anywhere near the prices they were used to. They were not happy!

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Autoweek reported on this last week. I mentioned about a month ago that the muscle car market was unsustainable,and would collapse just like the FERRARI market did in the 80's,and people on this board scoffed. Guess what the party is over. BEWARE THE CHANDELIER BID!!!

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Doug R: "Team these up with free booze and wallah."

Wallow, perhaps? As in "wallow in your misery after paying $150k for a '60s Mustang" or "wallow in sloth and drunkenness?

Or perhaps you mean "voila" instead?

Either way, someone who wastes his money while drunk has no one else to blame, unless he didn't KNOW the drinks were intoxicating.

Shill bidding, on the other hand, is entirely unethical. The FTC considers it fraud, at least when it happens on eBay.

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I have been at a few auctions in my time, not for cars but for watches and I think the same story applies. There is, more often than not, something decidedly shady going on, but if you have not educated yourself on the market value of that item that you are bidding on before the auction, then you only have yourself to blame when you pay over the odds for it.

On another note I think the American market pays far over the odds for vintage cars and motorcycles, simply because there are too many people with more money than sense in the market, and as another commenter has said, "like to compare the size of their pee-pees". For example Ferrari 250 SWB, Manx Nortons, Mercedes 300 SL Gullwings, just to name a few, all make far more in the US than they do any where else in the world, whether it be at auction or through a private sale. Always when I see a BJ auction or another item that I would like to think I know the price of, but is being sold in the US, I am absolutely shocked at the price obtained.

And coming back to the issue of fraudulent items at auctions, I have been at a Coys auction in the UK when a lot was pulled at the last minute, because its authenticity of the vehicle was in doubt, due to the observance of a bidder. Would you see that at BJ?

Nicholas

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Nicholas,

you do certainly see them checking over cars at Barrett-Jackson. the ones they are most careful with are certain muscle cars (like the GTO and 442) that did not have a model identifier in their VIN number, making fraud a distinct possibility. there are some other identifiers with these models to let them know if they are looking at the real thing or not. they have no problems selling clones; they just want to make sure the real thing is just that.

I'm amazed at all the whimpering babies here, griping about all the high prices at Barrett-Jackson. so you think that the cars are overpriced? I think real estate is, too. anyone out there want to sell their house to me for 25% of it's market value? probably not, huh?

if you had a rare muscle car, would you be interested in getting top dollar for it, or would you rather just sell it really cheap, because you think the market is overvalued?

Mike

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I've got a rare gold plated turd called Mr. Hanky that's gotta be worth at least 500k. I'll include shipping if anyone's interested. You can show all your friends, they'll think you're so debonair and discerning, that it's so unique and exclusive.

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Mike (#6), yours is hardly an unbiased opinion. If I sold cars at Barret-Jackson, they would be my best friends too. You basically proved my point about the "status" factor. What that has to do with the actual value of cars I don't know.

In all fairness, I have seen cars go for most likely far less than what it costs to build them, customs in particular. Most of the bidding wars are ego initiated insanity, but I don't feel sorry for them #9. And yes, there are many muscle cars genuinely worth $100K+ and then some. Hemi Cuda convertibles are getting a million plus at auctions other than Barret-Jackson. They might be inflated some but I'd bet by not much.

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Doug R,

I don't really look at myself as being too biased. the two cars I sold at Barrett-Jackson were both Buick Reattas, and both sold for around $10,000-$11,000. this didn't exactly put me in the Friday-Saturday "prime-time" category, or a heavy-hitter by any means.

I was certainly disappointed with the car I sold in Palm Beach; it had 100,000 miles less than the one I sold in Scottsdale, and sold for less money. however, I was aware that this was a "no reserve" auction, and it was also the first year they had done the Palm Beach venue. this were all chances I took when I signed the auction contract. disappointement? yes. anger? absolutely not.

what I do know is that this auction sets the tone for prices for the rest of the year everywhere else in the world, and that's not opinion, that's fact. I'm in the business of selling parts for Buick Reattas, and the one that sold (not mine) at Barrett-Jackson a few weeks back went for around $20K. we've been seeing many Reatta convertibles selling for this on the open market in the past year, and this just helps to reaffirm the value. it will only go up from here.

the one thing I DID experience while I was there was what babies a lot of these guys were. you're right about a lot of the restorations costing more than the value of the car; so what? the owners made the conscious decision to spend all this money, and that is many times the chance you take in this hobby. I don't see it as any different from having a car to trade where the value is less that the loan payoff. you have two choices; either don't do it, or bite the bullet. bitching and moaning don't help here at all.

I'm sure the particular case of the car on the stage for only seventy seconds was a really isolated case. if you watched much of the auction on Speed, you know that many cars were up there for far longer than three minutes. on the other hand, if there is not much bidding on one particular car, they're not going to keep it there forever. they had over 1,000 cars to sell here, and only so many hours.

the most important thing to remember here is that Barrett-Jackson is in the business to make money; the higher the price, the more they make.

Mike

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Restorations costing more than the value of the cars is nothing new. Some of that is just simple pride in a job well done or---not knowing when to stop or by sheer accident and the other item is timing and market.

I've done a few completes over the years I'd say it's 50-50 on what I've made, so basically a break even. I used to do Corvairs 2 did really well, 2 went backwards, the market softened but I needed some cash at the time.

Something that gets lost here is the word "hobby" I don't look at my cars as "investments" they are cars, subject to market conditions. You make some, you lose some. If you can stay about even and have fun, you're doing ok.

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I find it interesting that BJ threw Keith Martin out of their auction for "reportedly" bashing BJ to other "jounalists"in the BJ media center, yet no one has come forward for attribution as having been present or actually hearing Keith saying anything negative about BJ. All I've read is that "someone from BJ told someone else from BJ that he or she saw/heard Keith say it" blah blah blah.
BJ had an axe to grind over keith's OPINION in HIS OWN MAgazine ABOUT THE shaky future of muscle car pricing. BJ pressured SPEED into not hiring Keith back, and what viewers (and BJ) got for their trouble was an inept, uninformed guy on the stage who misrepresented the authenticity and provenance of more than one car.
Here's the bottom line as I see it. Most muscle cars, by the sheer numbers that were manufactured and still exist, are NOT rare. They might be DESIREABLE, on an emotional basis, but they are, for the most part, not INVESTMENT cars. That category remains the domain of marques like Ferrari, Alfa, Jaguar, Delahaye and the like.

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Here is a cut and paste of the article.
http://forums.thecarlounge.net/zerothread?id=3054304

"January 27th, 2007 by fourwheeldrift
As a collector car journalist, I have been watching the Barrett-Jackson auction for years. For the last five or so years, it has been very apparent that the Scottsdale auction is at best a bastion of greed and manipulation…and at worse, all-out fraud.

I’ve discussed B-J with collectors, dealers and enthusiasts, many of whom would be considered “insiders,” meaning they’ve bought and sold cars at B-J and other auctions, or are well-known in the collector car hobby. For some reason, it is this year that people are all finally grumbling and passing rumors in unison.

The bottom line is that Craig Jackson and the B-J company have really screwed themselves this year. Their contracts specifically promise every car three minutes on the stand. Due to ego and greed, they expanded the Scottsdale ’07 auction to the point they could not provide this, plus they had the audacity to do it on live television.

A well-known former head judge in the Ford Thunderbird circles was one of the sellers who had his car short-timed. He has already filed a law suit against B-J, and this is already headed towards class-action status.
According to this judge and other sources, it appears Barrett-Jackson was operating a bit on the same level as an evangelical healing show. They had assistants milling around asking what specific sellers thought their cars would bring. Armed with this information at the control desk, if a lot passed the value at which a seller indicated he’d be happy, the car would be rushed off and the gavel would fall – even if bidding was still very much alive.

Because the event was televised on live television via the Speed TV network, the plaintiff(s) now have video/audio proof that buyers were signaling increased bids before the three-minute marks, but were denied by a too-fast last call and hammer.

While this all might cause Barrett-Jackson to have to pay money to sellers in the form of a judgment or settlement, it is something else that might land Craig Jackson in jail.

It is no secret that Barrett-Jackson owns many cars that are run through the auction – it was something I suspected many, many years ago. This was proven when they started maintaining a showroom of cars in Arizona. This is not illegal, but stay with me.

I’ve always suspected that the cars owned by Craig Jackson and the B-J company were often driven up by shill bidders working for the company. Essentially, the strategy works in the sense that ever since the auction focus moved from classics like Packards and Duesenbergs to muscle cars, B-J has been able to shill, say a Hemi Cuda or mid-year Corvette 427 they own, which causes the value of the 10 other identical cars to increase. They wind up “buying” their own car back, but the others go on to regular buyers, who now are paying higher because of the perception the market has moved up.

This suspicion has been validated by auction attendees this year that witnessed cars sold at auction headed in trailers back to B-J’s warehouse. The lawsuit allegedly points out that these cars also spent significantly more time on the block than others.

If this isn’t all interesting enough, during this year’s auction, fellow collector car journalist, Keith Martin of Sports Car Market, was booted from the Westworld premises and his media credentials revoked for voicing loud, specific concern regarding the event while sitting in the media room. Barrett-Jackson accused Keith Martin of “holding court” and attempting to send VIPs and journalists to the competing RM and Russo and Steele auction events. Among the alleged opinions included that the cars at B-J were of inferior quality (and had quality misrepresented,) as well as that the bidders were significantly over-bidding cars, which shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who has witnessed people paying six figures for cars they could have bought for under $50,000 any other day of the year!!!
This is somewhat of an interesting twist. Keith Martin’s publication has marketed the B-J events and has helped fuel its popularity. Keith is definitely one of the great “insiders” of the hobby, and has been a friend to Craig Jackson. In past years, Keith nor his publication have been critical of the goings-on and rumors, while other collector car journalists have been outwardly screaming that something stunk.

It makes sense, since Sports Car Market really only tracks the value of vehicles and other items sold at auction, rather than via private sales (which really has skewed SCM’s values for years!) So without kissing-ass to B-J, Keith would have missed insider info on the largest events covered by his mag. So we can only guess that Keith and Craig had a falling out of some type.

I applaud Keith for turning the corner on his view of B-J, but I’m with others I’ve talked to about this: I hate to say this about a colleague, but I felt his behavior was a bit unprofessional. As journalists, it is our responsibility to write what we think, but going to the show for years, then promoting RM and Russo+Steele while at Westworld is somewhat unprofessional. I agree that Keith, a true hobbyist who started out by writing an Alfa Romeo newsletter, was for a long time too much a part of the “circus” about which he finally rejected, and that SCM has to a significant degree helped to fuel misinformation and a house of cards regarding specific auction prices and bidding behavior. Keith, by all accounts, is a really good guy — an enthusiast, who maybe just needed to take a step back and a big breath and reacquaint himself with those outside of the very insulated collector car “in crowd” — and spend time with some car people who are not trying to exploit the collectors. There are plenty of guys who have dug themselves too deep into this little crowd, and are no longer fun to deal with, because they’ve put personal greed well ahead of the cars and the collectors. Keith will rebound — he has a great internal staff of really fantastic people, who hopefully will help him return to his roots.

That being said… While I’ve never met him, the buzz among those in the hobby — both collectors and journalists, is that Craig Jackson is quite arrogant, so don’t expect many to come to his rescue. He inherited his father’s company, and has fueled B-J’s growth with a combination of intelligence, drive, ego, and greed. While there is nothing wrong with that combination, when it results in unethical and possibly illegal activities, that’s inexcusable.

Like many surrounding the hobby, I will be watching the events unfold. Will the Westworld tents come down like a house of cards, or will everything just go away with an exchange of a little money? It’s hard to predict. Craig Jackson has become a very powerful man, and his company has pumped billions of dollars into the Arizona economy over the years.
This all being said, there’s no doubt that Barrett-Jackson “jumped the shark” this year. Unlike when Fonzi did it, Craig Jackson drove his allegedly shill-bid Hemicudas over the tank and down a ramp that could lead to six years in a minimum security prison-issued orange jumpsuit. If that’s the case, maybe he can get Sports Car Market in the slammer to keep-up on Russo and Steele, RM and Kruse auction results.

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Interesting article. Something else this year, I was there for Fri night Sat and Sun, I also thought the hammer fell too early a few times and there were a number of corrections being made by the various auctioneers, unlike past years. Something was very different this year.

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