In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Road Test Editor Reese Counts and Associate Editor Joel Stocksdale. To kick things off, they talk about driving the Dodge Charger Scat Pack, BMW M5 Competition and Lexus LC 500. Then they offer up thoughts on the upcoming Land Rover Defender, a possible Ford Bronco engine leak, new GMC Jimmy rumors, Jeep Gladiator pricing, and Ford reintroducing the Puma nameplate. Finally, they help a Twitter friend choose an affordable electric vehicle.
Transcript[MUSIC PLAYING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Autoblog Podcast. I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today, in studio, is Associate Editor Joel Stocksdale. How you doing, man?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Good. Doing good.
GREG MIGLIORE: Doing good. And Road Test Editor Reese Counts. What's going on?
REESE COUNTS: How's it going?
GREG MIGLIORE: It's going well. I-- we got to mention a couple of things here. One, we're in a conference room that's about 110 degrees. Summer is finally here in Michigan, but we're in the hottest room in the middle of the office. It is what it is. Life is great. We've got some awesome cars we're going to talk about. So, hey, we can't complain too much. But, you know, it's pretty warm in here.
So we've been driving some hot metal-- the Dodge Charger Scat Pack, BMW M5 and the Lexus LC 500. Those are all in our fleet right now. I am psyched just, like, even talking about them. We've driven them. Where to basically break them down.
Then, some news. Lots of news going on, kind of rapid fire segment. We'll talk about the GMC Jimmy maybe coming back, Ford Puma, Ford Bronco using the Ranger Inline-4, reportedly, rumors more about the Land Rover Defender-- will that live up to expectations-- and the Gladiator, that's the Jeep pickup truck, is going for a ton of money. We're going to talk about that. Lastly, we will spend your money and it will be-- we're going to spend some green for a green car.
So let's jump right in. This is a car I just got out of this morning. I had a blast in this thing. This is the Dodge Charger RT Scat Pack with the Dynamics package. I don't really know what that is. But I did two burnouts, like, before I had gotten a mile from the office. One was somewhat intentional, one was totally accidental.
I literally pulled out of our office here onto Woodward, hit the gas, kind of, like, let out a breath. You know how it is. The end of a workday, you're relaxing, hit the gas, accelerate, go home. Most cars, it's fine. You just hit 45 miles an hour or so with ease.
Charger lets out this, like, growl. There's a ton of bass. Back end starts to fishtail. I'm like, all right. Yeah. Of course, I know I'm driving the big, naturally aspirated V8. But it's awesome. It sounded really-- in a week that I've driven the M5 with the Competition Pack and the Kia Stinger, which is another pretty awesome V8 sports sedan, I think the Dodge Charger might be the most fun, full stop. It's kind of a hot take, but, hey.
REESE COUNTS: So I actually spun the tires coming out of the office when I took it to lunch yesterday. So you are not alone on that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. I tripped the tires a couple of times by accident. There's just kind of, like--
GREG MIGLIORE: But then it stops being an accident. Right? You're just like, yeah, let's let light them up.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: A little bit. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Tip in-- tip into the throttle is a little sensitive. But I got used to it after a few miles. But, yeah, you are not alone. But the car itself is awesome. And this thing, I-- I love the way this one specked. I mean, it's got performance options but it's cloth interior. There's no moon roof. I mean, it's-- I mean, it's pretty, like, bare bones, as far as, like, a Charger performance car goes. But, yeah, this thing's good. It looks good, it sounds good. These things are all over Detroit, and they've been around for a few years now. And I still dig the way this thing looks.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: We were talking about this in your office earlier-- FCA paint colors are the best, whether it's, like, the actual color or the name. I think this one is-- what-- F8 Green.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, one of the more boring names. But it's a really good color.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. This might be my favorite color. I think we saw it on this show floor either last fall in LA or in Detroit, I think, for the first time. At least I saw it. I think there was a Challenger with, like, a matte black hood. And this-- it looked rad. And, like, coming into the office on Monday and seeing this was pretty exciting.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, with the 20-inch tires, their black forged wheels-- yeah. The green is almost like-- I would compare it to almost, like, a military green--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --forest green.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But with lots of metallic.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's almost-- it's almost got a little bit of, like, candy look to it. This has got a lot of depth to it that's really nice.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the Charger, to your point, Reese, is really aging well. I mean, they've been, like, I would say probably three or four generations since they bought it back-- brought it back, you know, geez, what? 14 years ago, now? But, really, there have only been like two main generations. And this current one, I mean, it's-- you know, it's curvaceous but it's still got that Charger feel.
Headlights look good up front, regardless of the spec. You know, that long hood-- I will say this. The interior is pretty Spartan in there. It's, you know-- as a Charger owner, I'll fully cop to that. I don't drive it very much at all, as I think of it. So I'm sort of, like, their base here. But, I mean, the interior of the 19 is not that much better than the interior of the 06, which I got way before I, you know, even got into this kind of field.
So it's-- yeah. I think-- I don't know. I wouldn't say they have-- they need to upgrade the interior. I think it also is very trim specific. You know, you can get a Charger that is pretty, you know, fairly nice interior. But some of the plastic, some of the materials do feel a little cheap. That being said, for $46,000 for just a whopping V8 muscle car, I almost don't care. It's fine.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I think one of the things that really surprises me is that it actually handles pretty decently, especially for something that's so huge, and, I mean, that is built on a platform that dates back to 2005, when they first came out. Even further back, considering that it originally had some Mercedes stuff under the-- under the chassis. But, like, it doesn't roll much. It turns in pretty eagerly. It's got-- it's nose-heavy, but, like, it's really manageable. You can actually really hustle this thing into corners.
GREG MIGLIORE: So in a week where I've basically said I like this or at least had more fun driving this than an M5 and a Kia Stinger, my other sort of take away from this Charger is I think the 392 is the best Charger Challenger, like, performance engine. I think give me this engine over the Demon or the Hellcat all day. Naturally aspirated-- the way it sounds is awesome.
I mean, it's got this, like, raw rumble. There's a base where you kind of, like, really tip into the throttle. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you guys disagree with me. You want a Demon or something. But this, to me, is the motor. This is it.
REESE COUNTS: I would like a bass Hellcat. Like, I like the-- I don't know. That's supercharger whine on the Hellcat is something like--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That's what I was going to say.
REESE COUNTS: It's really intoxicating to dip into that thing.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Because I do love this engine, but you're absolutely right.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Because when we had the Hellcat Redeye, I was like, oh, my gosh. I love hearing that shriek every time I go up on ramps.
GREG MIGLIORE: So that's a shriek, too. That really does.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It is. It is. It's wonderful. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: I saw somebody posted on Twitter the other day-- do you guys know what used Hellcats are going for?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: No. I haven't looked at them.
REESE COUNTS: Around--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's a really good question.
REESE COUNTS: Around $40,000.
GREG MIGLIORE: Interesting.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: You can get a, like, pretty clean, like, Charger or Challenger Hellcat for around $40,000. And, you know, the new verse used arguments, like, it's an apples and oranges thing. But, you know, like, really, any version of this car-- I had a rental spec, like, V6, like, white on black cloth, like, charger a few years back when my GTI was in the shop.
And that was awesome. I mean, every iteration of this car is really, really good. And it, like-- I don't know. It's-- it's ancient. And you can, like, rag on it for having, like, Mercedes parts that probably you could find under the hood in under the platform of my Mercedes. But they've done a really decent job of, like, keeping it modern and feeling pretty modern, at least as far as the way it drives. I dig this thing a lot.
GREG MIGLIORE: Charger, good time.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. Very good time.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. So let's move along to the BMW M5. This one costs $129,000, almost $130,000. So this one's not cheap. I think, in some ways, the reason I like the Charger so much is I drove the M5 the night before, got stuck in traffic. So, full, disclosure I'm not saying metrically or, like, serious "Autoblog" review, the Charger is better than the M5. Come on. I know.
But I had more fun on Tuesday night in the Charger than I did on Monday night in the M5. And, I mean, I don't know. For $130,000, this car-- I wouldn't say it's not worth it. But, I mean, you slap an M5 badge on a car, you got a lot to live up to. This is a brilliant machine, certainly. Love to get it on a track, definitely on an open expressway. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So-- so I'm glad that you said something about that. Because about a year-- like, several months ago, maybe a year ago when we had an M5 in, I had a friend up with me and I had it signed out for the weekend. And we-- this was also when we still had our long-term Mustangs. And, actually, nobody had signed out the Mustang. So I actually came back and dropped off the M5 and took the Mustang out because I was having more fun with the Mustang. It made better noises and felt more usable around town.
REESE COUNTS: So, in the right mode, in-- like, on the right road, the M5 is really good. But, like-- so you fire up the Charger, and it's just, like, ready to go. With the M5, you have to turn it in Sport Plus. You have to, like, open up the exhaust. Like, the-- you have to fiddle with the settings.
And I get this is, like, supposed to be, like, an all-around performance car. That's what's been so appealing about the M5 for years. But, I don't know. It's-- the fact that you have to fiddle with a few settings, and it's not just, like, turn it on and go, like the Charger, is a little disappointing.
I mean, it's really, really, really fast, really fast. And it's got a nice interior. It's quiet. It's comfortable. But, yeah, there's something just, like, missing about it. Like, compared to the AMG Mercedes, which are always kind of hairy and, like, a little, like, burly-- and, like, you-- same thing about the Charger. It's just always kind of ready to go. And the M5 is a little sedate. And it's fun some of the time, but it's not fun all the time.
GREG MIGLIORE: 617 horsepower from a 4.4 liter twin turbo V8-- I like the motor. Like I said, I didn't have much room to roam with this thing. Reese, you mentioned this is great on the right roads. I think that road might be like, you know, Monticello Raceway or something. I mean, I don't know. This just-- to me, this is not a daily driver. I think you want to spend your money and load up, you know, maybe a five series and don't go with the M5.
I realize an M5 buyer is a very-- it's a niche market. It's, , you know definitely for the-- the well-heeled enthusiast. But you could get a lot of car, you know, for like, a much lower spec 5 series, and still have, I think, a good amount of fun with it.
REESE COUNTS: So I'm on BMW's website right now. A base five series starts at around $55,000. And you can get a-- let's see. You can get a M2 for $60,000. So you could buy both of these cars. And I think that would probably be better than just driving the M2.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a really smart move.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I like that play.
REESE COUNTS: And you get a manual on the M2, and it's just a little more fun all the time. I mean, the M2 is really, really good. It's not like BMW is-- and it's not like the M5 is bad. I mean, it's really, really fast. But it's-- yeah. I kind of agree with you. It's-- I don't know. It would not be my choice at that price, especially at this pricepoint, even with the Competition Package.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Like, back when I drove it, I-- I'm sure I would have had a lot more fun if I had, like, an open race track where I could really take advantage of all the power and all the traction. But around town, I was just a little bit bored almost.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. It's-- it's a lot of car for the street. And, I mean, that's the case with, like, all these cars at this point. But, I don't know. I-- I like a car that's just fun all the time. And, like, older M5s used to be like that. And I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the all-wheel drive system, I don't know if it's the steering.
It's-- it's just-- it doesn't feel exciting all the time. And I'm-- I'm becoming more, like, interested in cars that are just, like, ready to go from the box and not having to fiddle with a bunch of drive modes. There's six different settings for the transmission in this thing. Six.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That's-- I think that's overkill.
REESE COUNTS: Like-- and that's fine, I guess. But-- and they're-- the M1 and the M2 buttons on the steering wheel are cool. And you could, like, preset it and just kind of double tap or single tap depending on which one you want to do. So it's relatively easy, once you dial it in. But, I don't know.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I suppose that's the other argument, that like, if you own the car you'll figure out what settings you like.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: You'll preset them to the M buttons, and then you'll never have to worry about it again.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- so I do like the customization. That's one thing that I actually think is a strength of the M5 and some of the M cars. I like being able to say I want to put this thing in, like, comfort on the chassis, and then support for the steering. I mean, I'm weird like that. But I think that's kind of cool.
This thing looks pretty good, too. I was definitely staring out at it in my driveway. It looks like an M5. I think they've gotten a little busier with their design. It's a little fiercer, a little sharper than, you know, BMWs in general used to be. But I'm reading-- looking at this comparison one of our competitors did. It's "Car and Driver."
And they had CTS5-- excuse me, CTSV, Mercedes AMG E63S, Porsche Panamera Turbo, and, of course, the M5. Yeah. I mean, of those I think I'd take most of those other cars except for probably the Porsche, just because I'm not a big Panamera guy, ahead of the M5. Maybe the Cadillac, not so much. I'd probably actually take the M5 over the Cadillac. But that's pretty tight, too. I mean, I like the Cadillac a lot. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I think I-- I think I'd take the Cadillac over the BMW.
GREG MIGLIORE: It just-- yeah. I mean, the last time we had a CTSV in the fleet, I was psyched to drive it. It was awesome. You guys might remember that. I think was last fall. It was like, like, matte black gray wheels or something. That car was sweet. That had, like, a real presence to it. I mean, I don't think we need to re legislate that Cadillac is really killing it in a lot of different ways. But, yeah, I don't know. M5-- awesome car, but didn't really-- you know, I didn't fall for it this week. Let's put it that way. And it sounds like you guys are on that same plane.
REESE COUNTS: One thing I do want to note-- I was talking to some friends. You mentioned "Car and Driver." They put an M5 competition on the Dyno few weeks back. And it turns out to be this very same car we've got.
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, nice.
REESE COUNTS: This car is rated by BMW at 617 horsepower. At the Crank they Dyno'ed it and got 617 at the wheels.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, that's interesting.
REESE COUNTS: So this thing's probably putting close to 700 horsepower on the ground.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's insane.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So close to--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --a Hellcat--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah, close to it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --which you have for, used--
REESE COUNTS: Literally half.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --a lot--
REESE COUNTS: Well, you can get a new one for literally half the cost.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: I almost would argue-- first of all, that's awesome.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: But it's also-- think about it, though. Like, if your car is 700 horsepower and you're not telling people that--
REESE COUNTS: I think this is just a BMW thing. I mean--
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't know. I mean, that may be a little dangerous. I don't know.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I suppose there's always the possibility that it's a ringer. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I mean--
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, that could be.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: That wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened in a press fleet.
REESE COUNTS: No kidding.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right. So let's move along here to the Lexus LC 500 Coupe. This car is drop dead gorgeous. It's red. It's got the whomping V8. It's a great week for naturally aspirated V8s in the "Autoblog" fleet. It's, like, the summer is here officially as of last week. It's-- the weather's warm and we're getting just some awesome sports cars.
And this one is a lot of fun. I know you guys had some time in it earlier this week. I'm psyched. It is 3:56 on Wednesday afternoon, if you're ever curious when we're recording this. In an hour and four minutes, I plan to be driving this car. But what did you guys think?
REESE COUNTS: This is probably the one or two or three prettiest cars on the road right now. I mean, this thing is a stunner, which is-- I was always-- I was blown away when they revealed that a few years back because it doesn't look that much different than some of the other Lexuses, especially the RC. It's got basically the same, like, design treatment, like, up front and from the profile.
But whatever Lexus has done to it-- smoothed it out, like, stretched the proportions to this-- I mean, it's got a really long hood and a really short deck. Looks awesome. I mean, it looks really, really good. The inside, too, it's very Japanese while still being, like, functional. Like, I like some of the interiors on some of the other cars. But, like, they're very German, very clean, and I don't know-- there's some, like, weird organic flair to the LC that I just love. Yeah, and the engine-- five liter is amazing. It's got less power than some of the competition, but I really don't care.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: 471 horsepower is a lot in this thing.
REESE COUNTS: It's one of the few naturally aspirated V8s, like, still around. Everybody's going to small displacement turbos except for, like, GM and FCA, who are still running naturally aspirated V8s. But--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And Lexus, too, at points, too.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. And it's-- I don't know. This thing is-- this thing is killer. I love a good GT, and this is just, like, a really, really comfortable, fast, quiet car. I'd love to put, like, 1,000 miles on this. I had it all weekend. I drove it a ton. Every time I get behind the wheel of these things I walk away impressed.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, the-- I totally agree. This is easily one of my favorite cars on sale today, definitely in my top 10, might even be in my top five. And, like Reese said, the design is amazing. I think part of it is that it's so taut. Everything feels-- everything looks, I mean, kind of shrink wrapped around, like, the chassis, kind of like-- well, some-- in some ways it kind of reminds me of the third generation RX 7, just this very, like, tight, smooth, clean shape, but a little bit more geometric, a little bit more wedgie.
It's got great design details. The tail lights-- I love them so much because it's got this sort of, like, infinity sort of look to it, where like, when it turns on it's got reflective surfaces inside and out. So it just looks like the tail lights-- like, if you look down the middle, it looks like it goes on forever, like, into the distance. It's really neat.
The interior is fantastic. I-- everything is nice materials. It's leather. It's suede. It's metal. It's so nice. It's got all these cool swoops and lines. And it feels really special. I was really disappointed that they sent us one with a black interior, though. Because that-- that shows it off the least impressively. It looks better in, like, tan or my favorite that's like, indigo and white and tan, like, interior.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. There's-- there's some really good colors. I mean, I like the black. But I probably if this was my car, I'd probably go, like, dark blue over tan. We had this--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: I think the first one I drove was that color combination. I just fell in love with it, immediately. But the big spindle grill that everybody ragged on for years looks perfect on this thing.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: It's not, like, new ground for Lexus. It just, like, is the culmination of, like, everything they've been, like, building for the past few. I mean, it looks perfect. They showed off the convertible concept last fall. I am stoked for that because I think this thing would be, like, really good top down car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I feel so-- I feel so conflicted about the convertible. Because, on the one hand, I mean, I like convertibles, in general. And it would be all the better for hearing that fantastic V8. But, on the flip side, I also hate seeing any part of that design cut off because I like the shape of it so much.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I just-- I agree. I like the coupe lines. But, I don't know, especially this week, now that it's finally getting warm here in Michigan, like, rolling around with the top down would've been very lovely.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Side note-- was Lexus maybe, like, ahead of its time here with these big, crazy grills? Like, we kind of all made fun of the spindle grill. And, I mean, on uncertain versions of its cars it does look like a cartoon. But then, look at how big the grills are on BMWs now, and Mercedes.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And almost everybody-- that Maserati we had in here looked like the, like, front end of a Dreadnought. And it's, like, hey, maybe they knew something. It's their identity. And, you know, on many of their cars they look pretty good.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I-- I think it's taken a few years for everybody to warm up to it. And I still don't love it on some of the other designs. But I think it really works with the proportions of this. And, yeah, to the-- your point with the BMWs, I mean, like, the new 7 series. I mean, that thing's giant. And it's, like, comically so, where-- because it just looks like a bigger version of, like, the traditional, like, twin kidney grill, where this is-- I mean, it doesn't look like any past Lexus, except for something in the past, like, five years. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think they were probably, like, a little ahead of it-- a little head of the trends. And it works. It works really, really well.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I cannot wait to drive this thing.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I think some of what helps the spindle grill on this car, in particular, is that it's such a low nose and it has so much shape to it. Because you-- it kind of, like, bends around the top and then into the bottom. It kind of helps hide some of the size. So it doesn't-- it doesn't feel quite as opposing. Whereas, like, on the Lexus LX SUV, it's just this wall of grill, and it's a little much. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: I actually like that, though. Like, when you go, like, way back, cars used to have really big grills. So I think I'm OK with this trend. I know we were kind of making fun of the X7 a while ago. I don't care. You know, it's-- you got to do something to make cars stand out. And, you know, I kind of like it.
That's-- also, the LC 500 is our Tech of the Year winner from 2018. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. Specifically, it was for the hybrid system. But, you know, we've driven this car a few times over the years. And, yeah, man. 403-- can't wait to drive it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I think one of the other things that I really love about it is that it feels genuinely special. Like, it doesn't feel or look like anything else on the road. Like--
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a really good point.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Like, it costs a lot of money. It's, like, $90,000, $100,000. But, if I had that money, I would feel like it was completely worth it. It's, like, it sounds right. It looks right. And it feels more unique than most cars.
GREG MIGLIORE: $97,000.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. And, like, one last, like, quick thing about it-- like, if you were expecting a super sharp sports car, you're going to be disappointed. There are sharper, like, better handling, more powerful sports cars out there for this money. But if you want a really, really good GT, something that looks good, that sounds good, that's still really comfortable, the LC is your, like, buy. Like, be honest about what your needs are. And, like, if you're looking for something, I think this is actually a really good buy at right around $100,000.
GREG MIGLIORE: I agree. It's definitely worth the money. I think, in some ways, it looks and feels I think more special than some 911s.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: You know, the M8 or the 8 Series we had in here-- I would take this over the 8 Series all day.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It does have a, you know, a very-- almost, like, an old school, like-- like you said, special quality that makes this car feel like driving is an event and you-- I mean, there's, like, almost nothing that looks like this on the road. When you're going down the street, I mean, people-- I mean, people were taking pictures of it in the parking lot the other day. And it's just kind of, like-- it's a movie star car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Actually, I even-- I got passed by a Bentley Continental GT the other day when I was driving. I was like, yeah, I would definitely take this over the Continental. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Mm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, maybe. Maybe.
REESE COUNTS: I'd have to think about that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Maybe I'm pushing it a little bit there. But, like, I was like, I feel cooler in this than I do in the Bentley.
GREG MIGLIORE: Charger verses M5.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Continental versus Lexus. This is an interesting podcast.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I mean, that's-- for, like, half the price, what can you get? But--
GREG MIGLIORE: How about we talk about the Defender?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, let's talk Defender.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's coming back, we know this. Frankfurt Motor Show in September-- I'm not sure for me to get to that or if any of us are going to get to that. You know, auto shows are declining a little bit. But, man, Frankfurt in the fall is pretty awesome, actually, as I think about it. Anyways, there'll be a Land Rover Defender there.
Land Rover, themselves, has put out some spy shots. We've actually got several stories on this topic recently. So basically in the-- excuse me. The interior was also teased recently, spy shots, so there's a lot going on. I mean, now that we know a lot about this-- and I know, Joel, you wrote one of these pieces. I mean, what do we think? Is this going to, like, live up to the hype? Is it tracking how we want it to live up to the hype?
Because, for so long, the Defender was this thing that we couldn't get. And, you know, Land Rover, which is one of the original rough and tough SUV brands, was watching Jeep and now maybe Ford, with the Bronco, you know, come in and just suck up all the oxygen. And now they're bringing back one of their, you know, original halo products. So I'm curious, you know, how are we feeling about this right now in late June of 2019?
REESE COUNTS: Have you-- have either of you ever driven an original Defender?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: No.
GREG MIGLIORE: I have not, no.
REESE COUNTS: They're garbage. I mean--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I believe it.
REESE COUNTS: --they look really cool, and they've got, like, a ton of charm. But they're really bad to drive. I mean, like, it's just-- it's a tractor. I mean, it is, like, totally utilitarian. They're slow. They're uncomfortable. The steering is bad.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean, you know me. I hated the old G class before it got redesigned. So I'm sure that I would hate the-- I'm sure I would say the old Defender.
REESE COUNTS: And it's-- it's much the same way. So I'm expecting-- I mean, I don't know if it's going to drive as well as the new G class. But expect that same level of, like, update, where it's still got the styling but it drives like a modern vehicle. Because nobody-- like, nobody is actually going to use this as a farm truck, not like the original Defender was intended or used as.
This is going to be, like, a really nice, comfortable SUV with some really cool styling. So I think that's how it's going to play out. It's-- it's going to drive how you wish the original one did. And it's-- it's going to, like, be practical and, like, easy to see out of, and like, improve on, like, all the things you, like-- yeah. It's going to be your dream Defender, and not, like, the reality of the old Defender.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's a really good headline right there, maybe in a column or something from-- maybe from Frankfurt. Your Dream Defender is here.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, I'll say it's probably a Dream Defender for people that will go and buy them and use them on the road on a regular basis. I'm sure they're going to sell a whole bunch of them. It will not be the dream Defender for the hardcore off-road set that loved the old one. Because it's going to be independent suspension all the way around. It's a unibody. Like, those are two huge strikes against it, already.
Just be-- I mean, there's a reason the Wrangler is still basically a truck. It's body on frame. It's got solid axles, front and rear. And don't get me wrong. I know that the Land Rover could make something like this off-road really well. But the guys that love off-roading don't like that stuff. They like the old stuff.
REESE COUNTS: I think this is going to be like the G Wagon, and nobody is actually going to care. I-- like, nobody-- even if they were doing an update, like, I don't think anybody was actually going to ever take this off-road. I mean, they're doing the independent suspension, the university platform. It doesn't matter one iota to the people that were actually going to shell out the money.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, that's the thing. I am sure it's going to sell great. I don't think Land Rover has anything to worry about. But there's-- but the hardcore group that, like, loves off-roading and loves the old Defender, they're going to be upset about it.
REESE COUNTS: I don't think--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: They're not going to buy them, probably. They probably wouldn't have bought them even if they were what they were hoping for. But--
REESE COUNTS: That's the thing I don't think Jaguar actually, like-- or, sorry, JLR, Jaguar Land Rover, actually cares what the old people think.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: Because they're not going to buy new ones.
GREG MIGLIORE: They haven't sold a Defender here in roughly 20 years. So, I mean, the people who are, like, that market are, like, literally not going to be, like, around to me this market, if you will. They've got their classic, and that's it. And they've probably moved on to other types of vehicles. So, I don't know.
I mean, I'm a little torn on this one. I'm looking at the pictures, and it kind of just looks like a smaller, somewhat conventional Land Rover SUV. I know we've seen, like, that's the camo'ed up vehicle, though. There's some other shots there a little more revealing, like, we saw this LEGO thing that may or may not be close to the Defender. There is-- we had a shot of, like, a Defender in, like, an infotainment panel.
I'm a little underwhelmed. I don't-- I mean, I don't know. I'm kind of thinking they didn't go retro enough here. But, again, we haven't really seen it, so I'm going to somewhat reserve judgment. I think you guys are right on. It's going to drive, like, kind of sketchy, if you will, for lack of a better way to put it. It'll be, like, better than the old one but still probably, you know, much rougher than a lot of people will like.
And the people who won't like it just won't buy it. I keep going back to, like, how much I like, like, the Wrangler and the Forerunner-- fairly different vehicles, but same kind of ethos, if you will. And, I mean, for the price, I mean-- we'll talk about this a little bit more about the Gladiator, coming up in a bit-- but the Wrangler is a pretty good deal when you see, like, what Mercedes charges for the G Wagon and what Land Rover will undoubtably charge for the new Defender.
So, I don't know. I mean, I'm kind of a Land Rover fan. I like the Discovery. I like the Velar. I like all the different Range Rovers. I mean, I really like what they're doing. I think, you know, they're infotainments kind of suck. Some of their interiors are uneven. But driving them is fun. It's a little bit of a mini event.
So, I mean, right now I'm kind of like, eh, wait and see. I won't even say I'm in the cautiously optimistic camp. I'd say I'm more like, OK, let's hope they can pull this off. Whereas I sort of feel like Ford's going to get the Bronco right. Jeep, we thought would get the Gladiator right, and they did.
With this, I'm more, like, somewhere in that gray area, 50/50, like will it be fine? Will it be good? Sure. But I'm not sure I'm going to love it. You know? It kind of seems like that's where you guys might be, too.
REESE COUNTS: Oh, no. I'm sure I'm going to love this thing.
GREG MIGLIORE: You're going to love this thing? OK.
REESE COUNTS: Oh, 100%. Like, I don't care, like, if it drives poorly. The-- I'm stoked based on, like, the spy shots that we've seen so far. You know, if they can get this thing in, like, under, like, $100,000, it's going to be like a cheap G Wagon. I mean, that's--
JOEL STOCKDALE: Yeah.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I mean, it's probably not going to have a V8, but that's OK. I, like, I just want something that looks really cool. And I think this thing's going to look really cool. And that's, like, 90% of it for me. I think I'm going to love it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I'm sure that's what the buyers are looking for. It's just like the buyers of G Wagons I mean, they buy them because that's what they-- they like the way it looks, and they like that kind of feel of, oh, I have this legendary off-roader and I take it to the mall every weekend. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And, like--
REESE COUNTS: I mean, people that own the older Defenders, like, buy it because it looks cool and you could take the top off. Now, I wish-- I doubt they're going to do a topless version on this. It'd be cool, but I don't see it happening. But--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That would be so cool.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And if-- if they did a truck version, too.
REESE COUNTS: Well, I mean--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But [LAUGHS] I'm not sure what the market would be for that. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Probably not at all. But--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And, the thing is, it's like, if you're looking for something more hardcore off-roading, you can go buy a Wrangler or you can go buy a Bronco when it comes out.
GREG MIGLIORE: I will say this. As I look-- will I probably end up liking this thing? Sure, probably I will. The wheel wells, as I look a little closer at some of these spy shots-- yeah, this thing does look pretty cool. So, I don't know. I'd say on the scale of, you know, Joel to Reese, I'm somewhere-- eh, I don't know. Not as excited as Reese, maybe a little more excited than Joel. Maybe we're right in that same area. I don't know.
So we mentioned the Bronco. Let's talk a little bit more about the Bronco. We hear it's going to use the Ranger Inline-4. Rumor going around just this week, that's the 2.3 liter turbo charged 4-cylinder. So that's-- as I think about it, that makes entirely sense. I mean, why wouldn't they use that engine for this?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's going to be based on the Ranger, so--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I mean--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --use the Ranger engine.
GREG MIGLIORE: Of course.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: So it's kind of like, you put it all together, like, OK. Yeah, that makes sense. We've driven the-- the Ranger. What do we think? Is this going to be good for the Bronco?
REESE COUNTS: Like, this is totally expected. And I think it's going to be fine. It's-- in the Ranger, this engine's got, like, plenty of torque. It's got good fuel economy. It's got, like, near or top of the class for payload and telling. I mean, it's going to have the capability.
It may not sound all that grand. I don't love the sound of this engine, but I don't think Bronco owners are really going to care. And, who knows? Maybe they'll do, like, a Raptor version with the 2.7. That would be cool.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That would be amazing. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: But, yeah, I've got no problem with this thing having a 4-cylinder. I mean, it's going to have the, like, the performance numbers. So, cool. It's going to get better fuel economy.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And also, on the sound side of things, nothing in this segment sounds good.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The Wrangler doesn't sound good. The Colorado doesn't sound good. None of them sound good. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. Like, I don't think-- I don't think this is really going to hurt it, at all. You know, Ecoboost has been hugely successful for Ford. If owners were going to care, they would have cared six or seven years ago when they started phasing out the V8s as the top level engines and they've downsized pretty much across the board. I don't think that is going to hurt it, one bit.
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't actually care so much that it's a 4-cylinder as opposed to, say, a V6 or something. I don't love this engine, to be honest. So that's, I think, what could be-- could be an issue. I mean, in the Ranger that we had, you know, just a few weeks back, it was fine. It was OK. It got the job done. You know, it was OK.
In-- you know, in our midsize truck comparison, there were probably better power trains, like the Chrysler V6, the Chevy V6 was better. I don't know. It's a tossup with the Tacoma. That thing's-- in my opinion, it was a little-- little raggedy. But I-- will it be fine, a turbo 4-cylinder in a Bronco? Yeah, actually, I can kind of see that. It makes sense, all that low end torque.
But I just wasn't totally in love with this engine. So, to me-- and I think Snyder would probably back me up here. That's our senior editor for all things green. It's, like, OK. It's fine. It's-- sure, it's to be expected. But I know he mentioned that he would like the ranger more, , like if and when they refresh it, maybe tried something else with the powertrain.
And so, for me, I'm kind of like, OK. That's what you're going to put in the Bronco, right out of the box? OK, sure. Fine. I mean, will it be fine? Yes, it will. But, to me, this engine is just-- it's OK. It's fine.
REESE COUNTS: I'd like to drive a Ranger in, like, a year, and see if they've gotten some refinement issues, , like sorted out. The engine-- I agree with you with the engine. I think the trend-- the 10 speed is a little, like, wonky, too, at some--
GREG MIGLIORE: It does no favors. Let's put it that way.
REESE COUNTS: So I'm hoping they kind of, like-- after a model year, they, like, do some internal updates that kind of under the radar, and by the time the Bronco comes out, can smooth this out. Yeah, I mean, I agree it was not my favorite engine in the truck tests that we did. But it was serviceable. And, like I said, the performance numbers are there. Like, on paper this thing gets really good fuel economy, good payload, good towing, and I think it's got more torque than anything in the class. So--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: There's something I wanted to ask you guys. A Wrangler is obviously the competition for the Bronco. How do you feel about the, like, Ranger 4-cylinder versus the Wrangler 4-cylinder and the Wrangler V6?
REESE COUNTS: I didn't love the turbo four in the Wrangler. I mean, it-- we had that Rubicon 2-door last week that you wrote the column on. And, I think Joel, you had it over the weekend.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: I prefer the V6. I just like the feel the naturally aspirated engine better. The fuel economy is obviously better in the 2-liter. It wasn't bad. I just-- ideal-- my ideal Wrangler would have a V6 and a manual transmission. And you can't get the manual with the turbo four. And you probably won't be able to get a manual, at all, in the Bronco. So--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I'll be a little bit of a prisoner of the moment. I think I like the turbo four in the Wrangler better than the turbo in the Ranger. I just-- to me, it was a little--
REESE COUNTS: Oh, yeah. I'm with you, there.
GREG MIGLIORE: --better engine. So, yeah. I mean, that's where I would land on those two head-to-head. Which one would I buy in the Wrangler? That's tough. I mean, I might go with the turbo because it's-- I mean, it's also new. It's a different feel. But the Pentastar V6 is pretty bulletproof. I mean, especially off-road, I would want that just straight, linear, predictable, you know, Pentastar V6.
So, yeah, that's a good question. All right. Speaking of off-roaders, how about that-- the GMC Jimmy may be coming back. I feel like every week we're like, what crazy off-roader from the '90s is coming back?
REESE COUNTS: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Last week we were talking about the Hummer. This week, the Jimmy may be coming back. This is a kind of a rumor mill post on our website, a lot of different theories about how this could work. It could be a Wrangler Fighter, you know, would obviously fall into that Bronco range, as well.
I think it makes a good deal of sense for GMC to do this. I think they are probably the right brand at General Motors to do it. The Blazer is now something else. So, you know, that name is taken. And I think it would make sense, you know let GMC, which is a truck brand-- at least it purports to be-- giving them an off-road sort of Wrangler Fighter, let that be maybe a bit of a halo vehicle.
I imagine it would look pretty cool because GMC has had some pretty good concepts. It's been a while but, you know, early mid-2000s, they were rolling out some of these things. So I think this would be a good move.
REESE COUNTS: I think GM-- this is a good move-- move for GMC. They need something that helps differentiate themselves from Chevy. Because everything in their lineup is just a rebadged Chevy. For better or worse, I like the looks of it on their products better than the Chevy version. But there's nothing that, like, makes them different. And I think it'd be cool.
I mean, I-- like, I used to own a Blazer. I owned a Blazer two-door and a Blazer four-door. So the new Blazer is kind of a disappointment. But if they can make the Jimmy kind of that old school truck feel, great. I'm, like, 100% on board for this.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I think they could do it even fairly cheaply, too. Because, the thing is, GM sells an SUV version of the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon in Australia. It's the Holden Trailblazer. And it literally looks like a Colorado, where the shortened the back of it made in an SUV. Like, if you could just reach style that, give it a nicer interior, give the US power trains, call it a day. Sell it for big markup and at Denali trim. [LAUGHS] Make a lot of money on it.
GREG MIGLIORE: And that's where you get into this, like, the Denali business. I mean, I bet the take rate on Denali for a GMC Jimmy would be pretty high.
REESE COUNTS: The take rate on Denali as GMC as a whole is, like--
GREG MIGLIORE: Is already high, yeah.
REESE COUNTS: --over a third.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And people love Denali.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean, like, I was-- when we had the Blazer a while back, someone came out and was talking to me. And I told them the price of it, which was quite high. He was like, wow. That was more expensive than my Denali. He didn't say it was a GMC. He didn't say it was--
GREG MIGLIORE: Right.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --what model was. He said it was a Denali. That's what mattered to him. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Denali is a very cool brand. Arguably, it's cooler than GMC.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
REESE COUNTS: GMC, and GM as a whole, has done a really good job at marketing Denali. I mean, we can make the argument all day long, like I just did, that their products are just rebadged Chevys. But it exists because it's a cash cow. I mean, they make so much money. I mean, you look-- look at the-- the Sierra. Like, a Denali is basically, like, a $35,000 truck with $40,000, like, on top of it, with an interior that probably cost another 10. I mean, the profit margins on these trucks are huge.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's, like, a third of GM's stock price right there.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I mean. it's--
GREG MIGLIORE: Like, I mean--
REESE COUNTS: That's why, like, so many people are, like, shocked by the value of these trucks. And they're going to keep raising the prices and adding more and more trims on the top end as long as they can sell them. I mean, they-- they-- when I drove the Sierra last year in Canada, on the first drive, like, they said, like, I think, like, 35% of Sierra sales were Denali. And, like, if they came out with a Jimmy that they're going to have a base one, maybe an AT4, that would be awesome. But they're going to sell a ton of really luxury ones.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And on the topic of AT4, that would be another advantage of it if they build it off, like, the Colorado Trailblazer platform. You've got all that great ZR2 stuff that you could then stick under it-- the Multimatic spool valve shocks and the big tires. And, I mean--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --all all of the bits are there. They just have to put them together.
REESE COUNTS: If this was, like, a GMC badge 02 SUV, I mean, that's what a lot of hard core people would want.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: That's what I would want. And, cool, maybe stick the diesel engine in there because that would give it something a little different. Yeah. I think this is a cool thing. I don't know if it will actually happen, but I'd love to see some-- an alternative to, like, the Wrangler or the Forerunner--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: What I think is--
REESE COUNTS: --and Bronco. [LAUGHS]
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and Bronco. What I think is interesting, too, is that last week we reported this and then talked about on the podcast, that Hummer might be coming back. So what-- I mean, these are all, like, pretty, like, rumor-- rumory rumors, let's put it that way.
REESE COUNTS: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: I-- when I think about it, I think it's more likely that both of these events would happen versus one. Now, you might say, well, that's aggressive. How-- how-- what scenario would that play out in, where they have all this money? But I sort of feel like if a car company, like say, GM, were to identify that they really need to win in this rough and tough SUV area, there might even be some sort of shared learnings. It would all be in support of, like, a broader strategy to win in this area. And, to me, to do that you-- you go ahead and win. You don't just do one thing. You do, like, three things.
You know, you get the GMC Jimmy, maybe you add one or two Hummer models, which would probably be sold, in probably Buick GMC showrooms. I don't know. So, I don't know. To me, I just sort of feel like there's a lot of rumblings now. And I think where there's smoke, there's fire. I think we're going to see-- if I were going to say which is more likely, I'd say the Jimmy, but, you know, maybe both. And that'd be cool.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So I think Jimmy makes a lot of sense, in my mind. I think Hummer, as an idea, is kind of cool and it makes-- and, like, it definitely have-- would have the style to, like, fight Wrangler. But I think it would actually be a bad idea for GM. Because--
GREG MIGLIORE: Even as all electric, which is kind of how they're allegedly doing it?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean, maybe. But, the thing is, it's expensive and it's hard to launch a brand, even-- even if you've launched it before. I mean, it's still, like, building up your dealer network, building up brand awareness not just for a new model, but for an entire new brand, and also, a brand that has some baggage. Because--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. That was going to be my point, is, like, we all think back to the Jimmy and the Blazer and the Bronco. They're like, oh, yeah. These are cool. Hummer didn't leave with, like, the best reputation. Like--
GREG MIGLIORE: No.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: No.
REESE COUNTS: Like, it died and, like, it was the symbol for, like, everything that was wrong with the economy and American car shoppers. And, like, if they came back with an EV, I think it'd be interesting. But, yeah, I agree with Joel. Like, this is-- this is going to be a hard sell.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And I think it would be better to go ahead and, like, start implementing those EVs in your existing brands--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --and kind of, like, improve those brands' images, also, as opposed to trying to kick start something completely new.
REESE COUNTS: I mean, I'd love a vehicle that kind of is in the old theme of Hummer. But I don't-- I don't know if Hummer is actually going to turn around. Jimmy--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I could totally see this.
GREG MIGLIORE: Jimmy doesn't have much baggage--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: --if any baggage. I think that's an easier play. And I-- and to be clear, I would not advocate relaunching--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: --the Hummer brand. I think that's kind of insane. I said last week, I was a little more positive on the podcast. But just to be clear, I would suggest or could see a scenario where, like, having perhaps, like, you know, one Hummer model that has a very niche purpose-- I could see that. But relaunching, like, five or six of these things, like, oh, no. That's just-- that's not the right move, as I kind of reflect on it, so-
But I think the reason they're looking at this is because things, like, oh, I don't know, the Gladiator are charging, like, $20,000 markups. Another interesting story-- we had this on the site this week. Man. I mean, we're not surprised. I mean, we knew these things were really expensive, and they are. I mean, FCA is usually pretty good about shooting down markups with its dealers. But, I mean, they need to get better, I guess. $20,000 markups on some-- some of these things is pretty-- pretty fierce.
REESE COUNTS: They are selling every single one they can build. Anybody that's saying this thing's too expensive, like, if it's-- if it's selling, I don't think it's too expensive.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: And it's-- you know, you could talk about a $60,000, $70,000, like, Gladiator all day long. People are going to buy it. If you really want one, wait a year when, like, things kind of settle down, as you probably should, anyway. Maybe get a lease on a Wrangler right now and, like, trade that in for a Gladiator in another year-and-a-half or two.
This doesn't surprise me, at all. The big mark-- like, they could probably charge $30,000, and there is going to be somebody out there that's going to buy it. I mean, this-- I don't know if I've driven anything this year that's as cool as the Gladiator. I mean, it is awesome. And we talked about that on the truck tests.
Go back and listen to the podcast. Like, watch the video. Like, we all love the Gladiator. We talked about it. It's pricey, but it's cool. And, like, for a lot of people, that's all that matters.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: You might even say we are entertained.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I'm-- I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.
REESE COUNTS: I mean, that's fair, though.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. And, like, it's-- it might be a little shocking to some people, but it's not surprising.
GREG MIGLIORE: More power to them.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I mean, if you can get that much, I mean, OK. I mean, it's-- I mean, clearly there was demand for this truck. People are super fired up about it. And it also, you know, I mean, we tested it. It almost won. I mean, it--
REESE COUNTS: Like, it lost by a hair. I mean, if this--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, 1.9 points. So I mean--
REESE COUNTS: If it had been--
GREG MIGLIORE: --we clearly like the vehicle.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. If it-- it's-- it came down to, like, a margin. And, yeah, this thing's so cool. I--
GREG MIGLIORE: They delivered on what they said they would do--
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I'm think they--
GREG MIGLIORE: --which doesn't always happen.
REESE COUNTS: I think they over-delivered. I think this thing's better than it need to be. Like, the last-- like, the JK Wrangler, like, especially towards the end of the life, was really dated. And they were selling a ton of them. And all the updates for the JL were really good. And those all carry it over to the Gladiator. And this thing could have been worse than it actually is, and it'd would still be selling as well.
And I think that's, like, the-- probably, like, my favorite bit about it is that it's, like, not miserable. Like, old Jeeps were kind of, like, bad to drive. I mean, you bought them because they were charming and they were capable and they looked awesome. And now they've got a really good interior, and a really good entertainment system, and they're reasonably quiet. Like, this thing drives better than, like-- it drives as good as probably a full sized truck from 15 years ago, which is better than it needs to. I-- like, the Gladiator is so, so cool.
GREG MIGLIORE: They are definitely in a good place. You know, we still are kind of-- we're excited about the Bronco. We're curious about the Defender. We're wondering about the GMC Jimmy. But Jeep, the Gladiator is out there and they delivered with it. So, I mean, that's a good place for them to be.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let's-- let's talk for a quick here, wrap up news with the Ford Puma. A kitten-sized crossover-- what a great headline by--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Aw. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: --Antti Kautonen, one of our freelance writers. It's kind of an Echo Sport. It's a pretty good looking labeled car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I wish it was an Echo Sport. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: You-- so, yeah. Joel's take on the Echo Sport is--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's awful. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. So break this down, Joel, what do you think? Do you like this thing?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean--
GREG MIGLIORE: I have a pair of Puma shoes. That's my only--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: --thing.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So I guess the first thing to, like, knock out is the fact that it's using a name that was previously used in Europe on this really nifty little sport coupe that looked really cool. It was very athletic. And I wish that we'd gotten it here, but we didn't. And now it's on a crossover because everything old is now a crossover. I mean, we've got an Eclipse Cross in the basement right now.
But I think it actually looks kind of cool. It looks very happy. [LAUGHS] It's got big, big headlight eyes. And I would love to see it here as the new Echo Sport because I hate the current Echo Sport. Like--
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't hate the current Echo Sport. But this does, by all appearances, look better than the Echo Sport.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm. I mean, it looks like this was actually, like-- well, I mean, it's going to be sold in Europe. It's been designed for, like, first world markets. The Echo Sport was designed to be, like, extra cheap, kind of rugged transportation in, like, developing markets.
GREG MIGLIORE: You did an interesting take. What do you think, Reese? Is the Puma your style?
REESE COUNTS: I had to actually Google what the old Puma was. Everybody was, like, up in arms on Twitter. And I'm-- you know, we're automotive journalists. Like, we pretty-- know cars pretty well, and even stuff that they don't sell in the US. I had no clue it what the Puma was. This thing looks cool. It's kind of cutesy, but so is everything else in this class.
It looks like a Ford Focus that's lifted a little, with some big eyes. Yeah. I'm kind of in line with Joel on the Echo Sport. It's not very good. In a class that's, like, not very good, it's not very good.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: This thing looks cool. I mean, like, I-- this class of cars is all about style. I mean, you look at, like, the Hyundai Kona, you look at the Toyota CHR-- and, like, everything here is all about style. And this-- and some of it's a little much for me. Like, I don't care for the looks at the Kona and I don't care if it looks of the CHR. I would drive this. I think it looks really cool. And if Ford is doing what they're doing with everything else, a PUMA ST would be pretty rad.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That sounds good. I would rock that.
GREG MIGLIORE: I like that. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, I don't know if I would rock it, but I would be-- I would be fine with out. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Think of this with, like, you know, the turbo 1.6 out of the Fiesta.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
REESE COUNTS: Like, maybe 200 horsepower.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Or even, like, the new-- the 3-cylinder that's in the European market, Fiesta.
REESE COUNTS: Right. Yeah. It's-- I think this-- I really like the looks of it, as cute as it is. I'm sure it's probably going to be pretty good to drive because most of the current crop of Fords are pretty good to drive. Yeah. I'm actually kind of excited about this thing. I really do hope that they bring it over. I mean, there's no plans right now. But, you know--
GREG MIGLIORE: They've got to replace all these sedans with some crossovers.
REESE COUNTS: Exactly
GREG MIGLIORE: And this is nominally a crossover, so it makes sense to me. Yeah, man. Swap out the Echo Sport for the Puma. I think that'd be cool.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Even though the Echo Sport been on the US market for that long, it's-- it's an old vehicle because--
GREG MIGLIORE: It is.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --it was on sale in other markets for longer. And so, I mean, and I don't think there'd be much love lost if they went ahead and replaced it. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: No. I mean, I literally get a Super Bowl commercial with a Puma. People would forget the Echo Sport was ever a thing. It's already confusing because they have Ecoboost, which some people call Echo Boost. Like, just, you know, literally punt on the Echo Port, bring on the Puma.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So if they brought the Puma here, they probably wouldn't call it a Puma because it doesn't fit the Ford crossover SUV naming.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's unfortunate because it works.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: It works so well.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And, I mean, I would be fine if they just slapped Echo Sport badges on it and called it a day.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'd say call a Puma, I really would.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Echo Sport, I don't think is a good name.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I was wondering, like, could we, like, brainstorm an idea for an e-name that they could use?
REESE COUNTS: Expedition.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, that's--
GREG MIGLIORE: Just, like, go-- like, double down--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: --and call what was used-- used to be the biggest SUV on the market that was--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The Expedition-L, for little.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Or S, for like, small sporty.
REESE COUNTS: No, no. Excursion is what you mean. Right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Oh, I do mean Excursion.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, and I was thinking about that.
REESE COUNTS: That would be, like, the greatest April Fools Day joke, ever.
[LAUGHTER]
Just be like, the Ford Excursion is back. It's here to fight Ford-- or fight Hummer. And then, boom, it's this little Puma thing.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But you know what would be funny about that is the fact that, like, Excursion makes more sense as a name for a small vehicle. Because, like, an Excursion, it's just like, I'm taking excursion out of the park and just kind of-- just a little outing. And, like, Expedition makes sense for a big one. So it was weird that, like, Excursion was the super size SUV when it came out.
REESE COUNTS: So, side note-- I think they should bring back the Excursion.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: I mean, now's the time to do it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Super duty SUV again?
REESE COUNTS: They need more SUVs. Why not? They could do it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: They've already got the Expedition Max, is it, that they call it now?
GREG MIGLIORE: Is it really called the Expedition Max--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean, that thing is as big as a-- as an Excursion. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, my gosh.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. Just box it in the super duty and call it an--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. Call it the Excursion.
GREG MIGLIORE: Ford Fairlane would--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Or even Expedition Super Duty.
GREG MIGLIORE: Falcon? Falcon would work. I know it's got to start with an E, but whatever.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Econoline? No. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: No.
GREG MIGLIORE: The [INAUDIBLE].
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The Escapade?
REESE COUNTS: The Escapade. The Escape and the Escapade.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That's not bad. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
REESE COUNTS: All right. Mark it now, June 26.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
REESE COUNTS: I called the Ford Escapade. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: There you go. I'm still going to go with Excursion. Anyways--
[LAUGHTER]
GREG MIGLIORE: --let's spend some money, on that note. So this week's Spend My Money comes to us from Twitter user, Devon, who basically is reaching out and wants to know what the best electric vehicles are that aren't priced like the Tesla. So looking for something a little more, you know, cheaper, basically.
His lease is up soon, and wants a full EV, not a hybrid. Would love a Tesla, but it costs too much. What are the moderately priced EVs? Hey, man. Thanks for writing, reaching out on Twitter. Let's answer the question.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So my two favorites right now, straight up, Chevy Bolt EV and the Hyundai Kona EV. Similar-ish range-- the Bolt is a little bit lower, like 238 miles. The Kona is a little higher, at 258 miles. And I like-- my main differentiator there is that if you need the space, buy the Bolt because it's super crazy practical. It's super roomy, loads of headroom, like, really comfortable, really practical.
If you want something that's a little bit sportier, more fun to drive, a little funkier, get the Kona. Because it's smaller but I think it handles better. It's a little-- it just-- it feels a lot sportier. Yeah. I love both of them, though. I mean, I'd happily drive either of them.
GREG MIGLIORE: Reese?
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. I'm kind of with Joel on this one. The Bolt-- I've auto crossed the Bolt and it's a lot of fun. And around the auto cross course it's about as quick as a GTI. And, you know, you're not, like, burning hydrocarbons, so that's cool. Yeah. I'm not spending as much time in SUVs or EVs as some of the other guys on staff. But, yeah, the Bolt's cool. I mean, Kierstein, Alex Kierstein, our senior editor, owns a Leaf. So that's a good choice. Obviously, it's a Editor's Pick if we-- one of us owns it. But--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's an-- a Editor's Pick.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't know if the Staff Editor's Pick.
REESE COUNTS: An Editor's Pick.
GREG MIGLIORE: But it could-- yeah, an Editor's Pick. Yeah, I can talk. It's been a long podcast.
REESE COUNTS: Yeah. It's a long day. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: In a hot room. [LAUGHS]
REESE COUNTS: I like the Bolt. I mean, the Bolt's a lot of fun. You know, try them all. I-- I wish I'd spent more time and EVs. But Joel and John seem to think the Kona and the Niro are pretty good to drive, as well as, like, being efficient. So, yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the Niro drives very much like the Kona. What I don't like as much about it is I don't like the driving position in its seats, as much. Like, you sit really high up in it. Like, you can tell that there's been some finagling under the chassis to get the batteries in. I think the Bolt has the best packaging. And I think a lot of that is because it was designed to be an EV from the start, whereas the Kona and the Niro both started as gas cars. But, yeah, they're great.
The Nissan Leaf is good, too. And I think it's actually more refined, from a driving standpoint, than the Chevy and the Hyundai. But it doesn't handle as well. It's not-- it doesn't feel as powerful. It's got shorter range, too. The long range one is, like, 220 miles. And then, like, the short range one is 150 miles. The trade-off there, of course, is that 150 mile one is a lot cheaper.
GREG MIGLIORE: The Leaf is interesting to me. I think you get some of that almost-- you get some of that real EV cred with that because I think people know what the Nissan Leaf is, whereas the Niro and the Kona, people are still figuring out exactly what those mean. Metrically, they-- they might be better than the Leaf, so really good options. But if I were going to pick one, I would just say pretty simply, lightning strikes three times. I'd go with the Bolt, too.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
And that's all the time we have this week. Thanks for listening. Guys, this was a lot of fun. We covered a lot of topics. By my count, five news items and four cars, plus we spent some money. It's really hot. Be safe out there, guys. Thanks for listening. Have a safe, safe weekend. We'll see you next week.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
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