In this week's Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor Alex Kierstein and Associate Editor Joel Stocksdale. They tackle the latest cars in the fleet, including two manual transmission Civics, the Sport Touring and Type R, as well as some of their competitors, such as the Veloster N and Mazda3, we've also driven recently. Once they discuss their recent drives, they'll help a listener find a new car with "Spend My Money."
Transcript- The "Autoblog Podcast" is presented by the Salvation Army. Your donations help those in need when their daily battles to survive poverty. To give, ask your smart speaker to make a donation to the Salvation Army or make your gift at salvationarmyusa.org.
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GREG MIGLIORE: Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today on the phones from the West Coast, the Senior Editor Alex Kierstein. What's going on, Alex?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Not too much, Man. How are you doing?
GREG MIGLIORE: We're doing well-- doing well. And in the studios for the second straight week is Associate Editor Joel Stocksdale. What's up?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Hey, everybody.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, so let's jump right in. We've got a great show for you. We're going to talk about the Honda Civic, get a couple of different variants. You'll want to stick around for this. We've got the hot Hatch Sport Touring. Hot is actually not part of the nomenclature, but I added that because it's-- I don't know-- a medium spicy hatch, would you say, Joel?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Hey, I wouldn't call it hobbits. It's warm-ish.
GREG MIGLIORE: A warm hatch, OK. Then Alex had fun with the Type R, which is definitely a bit spicier. We'll talk about the Toyota Avalon. It was a TRD trim. So you're going to want to-- want to hear what we think about this-- still a bit of a different take on the Avalon. It is not the sort of stayed Buick competitor you might remember.
Yeah, it's still a pretty big floaty sedan, but this one was a lot of fun. Then we'll talk about the Hyundai Veloster N, which both of these guys have driven. And they have strong opinions on. Lastly, we will spend your money. Moises in San Diego writes to us. And he wants a sort of a second car for fun. We're going to have a lot of fun spending his money on that. So tight and bright today. Cars and spending money. Let's go.
The Honda Civic Hatch Sport Touring. We both have driven this in the last couple of days-- really found this to be a engaging machine. I know you took it out yesterday, Joel. Kind of take me through some of your impressions.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Oh, well, it feels most like a-- I mean, the regular Honda Civic Hatchback Sport. The significance of this is that it used to be that you could only get a manual transmission on the Civic hatchback in the bare bones base sport model-- didn't come with much in the way of niceties, convenience items-- that kind of thing.
Sport touring-- that actually gives you, like, upgraded infotainment system, sunroof, heated seats-- all that kind of stuff. But now, you can actually get it with a manual transmission. So you can shift for yourself and not-- not live like a monk. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, the manual transmission to me really gives this hatch a lot of fun-- gives it a real engaging, just dynamic. And, I mean, it's a six-speed Honda manual-- enough said. I mean, the clutch is really, really smooth. The throws are just-- you know, I wouldn't say they're very long. They're like, medium length, if you will-- not too long, not too short. You could get a really good feel for the gearbox and a really good feel for the car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and I like the turbo engine. It sounds really good. It still sounds like a Honda engine. And it pulls pretty hard. It's interesting, like, it really feels like a turbo engine, like an older school turbo engine. Like it takes a minute for the turbo to spool up. It's not as bad as like a WRX or an STI or something like that. But it's not as responsive as, say, something from Volkswagen or even like Hyundai or Kia.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, and I think it sounds pretty good. You know, second to third year, fourth gear-- really sweet spots for this car. You know, you can really wring it out, build those revs up-- gets a little raspy. But I think it's still-- you know, it's a pretty good sounding engine.
I mean, multiple times I'd pull away from a stoplight, leave it in second gear, really let those revs build all the way up, really kind of ring it out. And, you know, it's a fun car to drive. I can't imagine they sell a ton of manual transmission hatches, if you will. But for people like us, I think it's a pretty good option.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think the one thing, though, is, because I recently drove the Honda Civic SI again. And I wish this had a little bit more of the SI'edness in it. Like, the SI, the shifter is just a little bit shorter, feels a little bit more crisp and mechanical. The steering, I think, is tighter in the Honda Civic SI. There's a little less body roll.
I wish that there was a little bit more of that in the sport hatchback. But the sport hatchback is still good. It's definitely more comfortable than the SI. I'm actually really impressed with the ride quality in this. It's really smooth and composed.
GREG MIGLIORE: But there's still, I think, a sporty vibe to it. It's, you know, buttoned down enough that you could get through corners, kind of hustle through corners pretty well.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the chassis is good. It's really solid. And it feels really planted going around corners. It's a really good base. I wish it was just a little bit more sporty. And, I mean, for that reason, I would probably go for the SI. Oh, it is more like for the handling aspects, the shifter because the SI isn't actually that much more powerful.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's a good point.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm. And actually, the SI comes with a lot of the nice convenience features, like the sunroof and the heated seats and stuff. And it's a little bit cheaper than a sport touring.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sport touring, you're getting into like, sort of that "luxury," so to speak, quote, unquote, that you see a lot of mainstream brands try to play in. You see this with Ford's, Chevy's, Hyundai's where you pay a little bit more. And you start to get a bunch of different goodies. This one had, you know, seat heaters, some of the upgraded, like, leather-like materials on the doors-- things that made it just a little bit classier, more of a premium feel that you get in some of the more base Honda trim models.
Now, I want to bring Alex in. I know you drove the Type R, which, you know, we'll get to that in a second. But you've also been driving Civics for years and years. The Civic is the good place right now. Would you agree with that assessment?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: You know, respectfully, I'm not sure that I would. I think--
GREG MIGLIORE: OK.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: --you know, it's definitely better than it was last generation before they did that emergency refresh. But I have a lot of trouble loving the current Civic, because mostly in the sportier trims, I just think it looks garish as hell. And I don't think the interior, the IP is that great. It looks a little chunky and plasticky to me.
The cars fundamentally drive fine. And the turbo engine's pretty interesting. The Turbo 15's pretty interesting, although it has some, you know-- they've been having some issues with that engine with, I think, oil consumption. But, you know, it's interesting. I would love to see it grow up a little bit, you know.
I would love to see them-- maybe the next generation if it's not a full-- like, if there's a real heavy refresh, I'd love to see it-- I don't know-- just become a little less overdone. And, I mean, the Type R is all that times 10, I think. You know, for whatever great dynamics the vehicle has, it's hard for me to love it, because, I mean, it looks like-- it looks like some crumpled up a bunch of super street magazines and then made an origami car out of them. That's what it looks like. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I mean, I think the Type R is a bit much for a lot of people, I think. It's not cheap. And you've got to really love it. That's got to be like if, you know-- that's not for most people. Let's put it that way. So why don't we kind of get into that, although, Joel, you look like you want to say something.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: There was one last thing I wanted to mention, especially since Alex brought up kind of wanting to see something a little bit more mature. We just recently had a Mazda3 Hatchback in the office, also with a manual transmission. And that version is only available in the higher up, like, premium trim level. So this and this Honda Civic Sport Touring are pretty much direct competitors. And between the two, I personally would choose the Mazda3.
GREG MIGLIORE: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I've got a couple of reasons for that. I think the Mazda looks way better. I love the design of it. I think it steers much better. And I think it handles much better. The interior is gorgeous and with much nicer materials. The like, leather-- that covered dashboard and stuff in the Mazda's wonderful.
I do fully recognize that there are drawbacks to the Mazda3 that could totally push someone into a Civic. I mean, the backseat is cramped. The visibility isn't all that good. And it's not that-- I don't think it rises comfortably. So, I mean, I can totally see why someone might pick the Civic instead. But of the two, my pick would be the Mazda3.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the Mazda3 since I guess we'll go kind of go down this rabbit hole a little bit here, I think it's definitely a more attractive car. You know, I think-- so when I say the Civic's in a good place to kind of stake out my position, I think it looks good. It drives well. And it appeals to a wide swath of people.
But I would agree with you, Alex, as far as the shortcomings. Even on this one, which we don't have the price right in front of us. But it's not cheap. And it's-- like, the interior is not great. And the infotainment has I feel like a number of shortcomings. It's not the easiest thing to use.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: I don't understand why Honda keeps using that infotainment system. They have a better one in the Accord. They need to replace this unit.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's critical to get that into the Civic too when do you think of just, yeah, I mean, full stop. They should fix the infotainment system. Frankly, Acura should fix all of its infotainment systems too. I think that's a whole separate conversation.
But, yeah, so that's kind of where I landed, like the Civic being like, I would give it like a B grade, if you will, whereas I think you referenced sort of the pre-redesign, Alex. And I remember sort of the dark days of the Civic when they were like, we're going for this, like-- like, literally, they didn't use the word austerity. But that's like what the game plan was--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: To make it cheap.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, make it cheap. The economy's bad. And to me, that was like a C minus, maybe even a D grade, because at that point, you were looking at Hyundai, Kia, Ford. They were loading up their cars. And Honda rolls out this, like, really vanilla, you know, low protein, low fiber thing. And you're like, what is this? So I feel like they've sort of pulled it up from those depths. And it's back to being in a fairly competitive spot, but definitely room for improvement.
And then when you match it up against some of the Mazda's-- to me, a Mazda's a car like a 3, like a hatch with a manual. You could really sort of enlivened the passions of enthusiasts, whereas, I feel like Mazda has done that in a way that Honda is starting to let slip away, even with some of these, like, feistier models that you were mentioning. And then probably now is a good time to get into the Type R.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah, you know, I just want to pick up on what you were saying really briefly. I've got an all-wheel drive Mazda3 Hatch right now. It's an automatic. So it's not like the trim I would pick. But it's a higher trim one too. Man, it is just so much more sophisticated and classy. You know, it's sort of like if Alpha Romeo was putting together small cars for this country, this is kind of how I would imagine that, you know, it looks good outside. It's great inside.
You know, engine's a little buzzy. But and everything in the segment's kind of like that. I think, you know, the Mazda3 does a small fraction what the Civic does in terms of sales. So Honda is doing something right. They're not stupid. They know what they're doing. But I really hope the next time they-- the next time they'd redo this car completely from the ground up, they look hard at the competitive set because I think everyone else is beating them in some metric, you know, whether it's the way the interior looks or whatever.
But, you know, I might as well talk about what I like. So I had the Civic Type R for a week. The weather here is kind of lousy. It was on summer tires. So I didn't really get the full experience. But Joel can back me up on this. Best manual transmission shift quality on sale today. It's got my vote-- bar none, front drive, real drive-- anything.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I don't know. The Miata and the 124 Spider-- I think-- [SIGHS] that's a call. It's a tough call.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: [LAUGHS] I should say I grew up driving-- you know, like, all my friends had front drive-- you know, we all had Civics and stuff. So like, I like this sort of cable linkage, you know, a little bit more disconnected than you get with a Miata where the shifter's just plugged right into the transmission.
But yeah, it's a weird car. It's turbo-charged. It feels very turbo-charged. You know, the interior is really wild. The bucket seats are real deep and strange and kind of in a weird position. I felt real out of place in that car on the street. I did not get a chance to track the car. It would have been slipping all over the place. You know, it's, I think, 38 degrees out and raining the whole week I had it.
But I'm really desperate to see how that car comes alive on track. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, something about the whole package left me a little cold. And again, I have a deep nostalgia for the Honda and Acura's of the 2000s. I had a buddy that had a '98 Integra GSR with all the, like, choice aftermarket bits. You could put on a car of that era.
And, you know, it's hard for me to separate what is my nostalgia for what, you know, with how things used to be to-- I don't know. It's just it's big. It's weird. It's turbo-charged. It's very, very-- very loud, not exhaust sound. I mean, just visually, it's got this big giant personality. And I think that's also not a fit. You know, I don't have a big giant out tray personality. And it's a little hard for me to be in a car that has a wing that's 9 feet tall [LAUGHS] and not feel a little conspicuous. What do you think, Joel?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So I-- I don't think I would call it a Type R good-looking, per say. But I do-- I can kind of dig, like, I can kind of dig the fact that it looks like a four-wheeled Gundam robot. It-- I don't know. I guess I don't take it too seriously. And I don't think it takes itself too seriously in that sense. It's just-- I don't know. It's just kind of fun. I totally get why somebody would not be into it. But ah, I kind of enjoy it.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think the Civic Type R is probably not in my wheelhouse. It's not in my bread basket as far as just things I would consider spending my money on. I think it's a little overwrought. I don't-- the design is interesting. But I think they kind of-- I don't know-- probably to be blunt, I think they kind of screw up Civic Hatch, which I think is a pretty good design and like, basic, like, you know, some of the lower trims. It's like, all the stuff they put on it I think really makes it-- I don't know, Man. There's just a lot going on there. So, yeah, it's not really my cup of tea. It's not my flavor of brandy. Let's put it that way.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I also feel like I can forgive some of that stuff, because I really-- like, every time I've driven a Type R, I love the way it drives. I love the shifter. I love the steering. It's so accurate, so sharp. I'm always impressed at how well it rides.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Like, I just ride real well, yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And like, looking at it, you would not expect that you would think, oh, no, this is going to be super stiff. I'm going to break my spine. I mean, look at all the wings. This thing is super serious. But then you drive it around. It's like, oh, wait. Now, this is totally livable.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: You know, what I'd love? And Joel, maybe you can see if you'd agree with me. I had a lot of trouble getting past what I was just talking about this sort of perception, this sort of the personality of the car and my own personality clashing, so like, just really let it all go and enjoy it. And I wonder, you know, how the-- oh, I'm blank on the name of the 9/11. I think it's a GT3 Touring, right, where they took all the wings off and stuff and it's much more low key.
I'm just wondering if Honda made a like a touring version of the Type R where it was just real-- it wasn't as festooned if that would sort of change my perspective, because a lot of it is framing mind, right? I'm trying to say that I think my frame of mind driving the car was sort of poisoned by its outrageousness.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I know that like a long time ago, there were spy shots of Type Rs at the Nurburgring that did not have the giant wing on the back. It still had the various, like, wide-end fenders and the extras vents and scoops and things. But it at least didn't have the giant rear wing. But nothing's come of that. So I don't know.
GREG MIGLIORE: So let me ask you this. M2 versus Type R.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Type R.
GREG MIGLIORE: Alex?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: I would say M2. And I'll come back to that later because I've got something for a spend my money guy about the M2. Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Good tease-- good tease. I might look at like a Golf R, maybe a Focus RS. But I might do an M2, maybe an M2.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Or a Veloster N. [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: Which is definitely something that we need to talk about. So let's get into it right now. You guys both drove this. I drove this, like, one night. I took it home-- didn't have strong feelings on it. But you two do. So I don't know if you agree, if you disagree, which is great. I don't know what I'm about to unleash here. Let's start with you, Alex. What was your experience of this thing?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: I'm going to try and be brief. It's not my strength, but I'll try to be brief. It is my favorite car that I drove in 2019. I still have a couple of weeks left. So maybe something else will pop up. But that's how I feel. I think it has-- obviously, the German engineers and executives at Hyundai brought in the European Development Program-- the sort of focus on Nurburgring development-- I think paid off in this car.
It feels very different than a velocity turbo. It feels very, very, very stiff in its mode. It's really adjustable. There's a lot of different settings. It just feels-- I don't know. I just felt like I was driving it really hard in some of the roads around here. It had pretty good grip considering it was wet and cold. But the thing just rotates around your hips. It just gets up on its toes and dances underneath you.
And it felt like the Germans-- it felt like some sort of weird off-brand Golf R to me. That's how it felt. And that's a high compliment. So engine's not wonderful. Shift action isn't as good as the Honda. But it's cheaper. And I don't know. Even given the goofy body sound, the kind of drab interior, I think it's worth MSRP. If I was in the market for-- you know, if my WRX blew up, and I was in the market for new car, I'd be looking real hard at it.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think you are really seeing the fingerprints of Albert Biermann-- Byerman-- not quite sure how to pronounce it. But I've interviewed this gentleman a couple of times. He was at BMW. And he's just brought all of that M division tenacity to this car.
I think, you know, when Hyundai was starting to sort of poach executives from different automakers-- sister brand Kia managed to get Peter Schreyer, who was sort of like their nominal president and then head of design-- you kind of wondered what the real impact would be. But now we get cars like the Veloster N. And you're like, oh, wow. This guy's not messing around.
I remember when I interviewed this guy somewhere in Germany. I'm forgetting where. It was at track. And I remember thinking this guy is so in charge. He was just-- he'd say something like in German to one of his associates. They would do it. And he was exactly like the kind of guy you expected to be in charge of something. You know, he had gray hair. And he like, was supremely confident but also quiet and understated.
And you could tell he was an engineer who knew his stuff. And, yeah, this wasn't like, you know, lip service. We're going to make a car and kind of say we have this guy involved. No, like the chassis is real dialed in. They have the right power plant. And I think, you know, they're getting that sort of dynamic that they wanted. How about you, Joel? What do you think?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think it's fantastic also. I don't know that it's quite the best car I drove this year. But it's up there. And like Alex said, I mean, the handling is a big part of that. It really does feel eerily neutral, like it doesn't feel like a front-drive car necessarily, especially like, I don't know what kind of freaky voodoo magic that limited slip differential is doing. But it feels like you could, like, when you're going around a corner, you can just keep feeding in more power. And it just-- it still keeps going around the corner.
I'd love the way it looks too. I mean, I like the way the regular Veloster looks. I like the kind of blending of coupe and hatchback all together in one. And it's kind of funny how small it is, especially compared with like even a Type R. It's a little bitty car.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's only a little bit over 3,000 pounds, right? It's somewhere in that ballpark. So, I mean, it seems like they're keeping this car just straight and true to its mission and being smart about it too. You know, it seems like the-- yeah, I mean, I'm impressed with the way they've been true to the mission here and kept it just, yeah, simple, which it's easy to do or easy to do when you're like, BMW. And you have all these plays you've run for decades.
But when you're Hyundai, I think there's a temptation to maybe try and do too much, sort of maybe overcompensate for like your lack of history in the segment. And this is a very, I think, straight-ahead execution.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah, it's surprisingly mature. You know what I'm saying.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: For a company that doesn't have a lot of consumer performance history, this really seems like they inherited a lot of expertise from the Germans. And I think if I have to call out one thing, I think it's suspension design and tuning is just outrageously good. And the difference between the normal setting and the hardest setting is immense. [LAUGHS]
It's one of the biggest deltas in stiffness that I've ever seen, especially in a front-drive car. So I'm massively impressed with the suspension. And hopefully next year, I can take one of these out on the track and see how it does.
GREG MIGLIORE: That would be-- this would be a very interesting track. Like, it's almost like a free track day, you know, where you're not shooting a video or something. And you just have, like, an open session to kind of, you know, test the car's limits-- test your limits within the car. This would be a very interesting one to try that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and the one thing I do want to bring up, because I do really love this car. I mean, when I wrote my little review on it, I feel like in the way the GTI is sort of the benchmark for like, budget, like, big bang for the buck hatchback that's also like civilized. This is like that but if you've got more of a performance focus.
Like, you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of that Volkswagen maturity for even better handling, even better power. But you don't want to-- you don't necessarily want to spend like, Type R money. Or you don't want something that's that ridiculous-looking. I feel like it's like the sporty mirror of the GTI.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I agree with that. I think--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Me too.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But the thing that I'd like to know is because there are two versions of the Veloster N that exist. We've driven-- I assume that yours was equipped with a performance package. Right, Alex?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah, this is true. I drove the performance, not the regular, so 275 instead of 250 horsepower.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Right, and that's what we had also. And I'm not so concerned about the horsepower difference. But the regular one still has an open differential.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Oh.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the suspension is tweaked a little bit differently. So it does come in at a lower price. But it also has some significant mechanical differences. And I'm curious how that drives. And, I mean, the thing is I feel like the upgrades that you get with the performance package are definitely worth it.
But I do kind of wonder how many people will go in. And it's like, I can't quite spring for the performance package. But surely the regular one is good. I don't know. I just wonder how close that one is to the performance package model.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Maybe we should take both of them to the track. Hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: It sounds like a fun day-- somewhere around willow or something.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: That sounds like a real fun day.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, it's interesting. Performance package gets you that 275 horsepower standard is 250. I mean, the base MSRP on these things is these are screaming deals for as much, like, you know, car, as you get 27.4 for the standard, 29.5 for performance. I think I'd probably go cheap on this one because I don't really think horsepower is necessarily what you're doing with this thing-- keep it simple, you know, just get as good a deal as you can and roll with it. I don't think that it has 20 horsepower
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The thing is, it's not the power that I'm worried about. It's the lack of mechanical limited slip diff--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yes, yeah. I know--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --because I feel like, because that's the thing. I mean, you can squeeze another 20 horsepower out with a $500 tune on something like this. That's not a big deal. But like, I would spend the extra money for the differential because I want to make sure that I'm getting exactly that amazing handling experience and like, the front end traction and stuff.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: But-- but, you know, you're really only going to leverage that on the windiest road and/or the track, right. So if you really just want to scoot around town and have fun, the regular one's probably fine. But I think somebody in the office needs to put these two head to head, whether it's on a really good mountain road or a track. You know, if we can make it happen, it be really interesting, because I have those questions too.
Either what are you giving up to save some money? Like, is that a big deal? Or is the performance just a screaming bargain for what you pay and get. I think it's probably more the latter. But I just wonder how-- to use a loaded word-- how neutered the regular one is. It's probably not on the street. It's probably not really perceptible. But, yeah. We should find out. It's interesting question.
GREG MIGLIORE: Sounds like a plan. How about we-- I don't know what a transition we could do here to go from hot hatches to the Toyota Avalon.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, it was the sporty one. So we're staying on the sporty one.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, this was the TRD, which is a fairly new thing. The way I'm going to go with this here-- and this one came in at the somewhat lofty price of $45,394-- seems like a lot of money for an Avalon to me. But, I mean, hey, we say this it seems like every week on the podcast. Average price of a new car is $37,000, $38,000. A lot of stuff on this-- 301 horsepower V6. All the TRD gizmos which I think is interesting.
I thought it was a pretty fun car to drive. For me, what I think this car served almost as muse for was rekindling my interest in actually the sedan segment. I mean, consumers drive so many crossovers. And that's reflected, frankly, in the press fleet. We had a ton of crossovers through here, especially this time of year.
And I'm always complaining about visibility or driving in this almost like, you know, like, totally like, gauzy state where, you know, you've got Apple CarPlay going with your phone hooked up. And you're just kind of like, plodding ahead-- you know, the whole commuter lifestyle.
It's odd that you would say, hey, this Avalon really got me fired up. But I'll say this. It sounded pretty good. It had sort of a very-- yeah, it was a little bit of an artificial-sounding TRD exhaust on it. But it was OK. You know, you're low to the ground in this thing. You had good visibility. It's a big car. You could put stuff in it. That's for sure.
The trunk is huge. Backseat is pretty respectable. The 301 horsepower V6's-- it's solid. It's OK. It steered pretty well. It was one of those things where like, where you've driven like, probably weeks of crossovers that you get in this like, this car. It's like, there's no cars out there anymore, especially big cars. I found it kind of refreshing. I found it enjoyable.
Now, you know, would I buy an Avalon? Not really. Of course not. I don't think. But I think it's definitely a pretty good Avalon, you know, compared to recent Avalons that were so sedate. I am surprised. I was a little cynical about the TRD things. I thought I'd just assume they were kind of cheesy, kind of tacky. And I somewhat feel that way. But they also did kind of spring the car up a little bit, which I think is good. It looked wild.
I think just walking out to it, I was like, holy crap. That's an Avalon? You know, it had the dark wheels. I think this was like a gray color kind of thing kind of like a midnight gray, if you will, like a dark gray if that's a thing. But it looked like one of those SEMA cars that Toyota does every now and then. And they're like, hey, let's mess with the Avalon because it's this big car. And you can-- it's a good canvas for doing things.
And, yeah, I sort of feel like you got to give credit where credit's due. Nobody said, hey, do a TRD Avalon. I'm not sure there's many people asking for it. But it was a pretty fun car. It's definitely not for most people. That's for sure. I don't think many Avalon buyers are going to do this. But if you like sedans, you know, I don't know. I like it in this post-car world. I like that some companies are still doing things, trying things with sedans because I think cars are still fun to drive.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And so I, like, this is probably the surprise of the year. I actually really had fun with this thing. It is surprisingly stiff. This is way stiffer than a normal Avalon. So there's actually not a whole lot of body roll, turns in pretty confidently. I was actually surprised that you can really kind of change its attitude quite a bit with the gas pedal.
You come off the throttle in a long corner, you'd start to feel the back end start to come around a little bit. It's like, oh, wow, this is an Avalon. What? And it looks really good. It's got presence. It's really low. It's got those really aggressive black front splitter inside skirts and like a little rear diffuser thing. It looks good. It handles pretty well. The 301 horsepower V6-- it would be nice if it had more power. But it felt powerful enough. And that V6 is a good-sounding engine.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I feel like 350 is the right figure for this car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, that would probably about the--
GREG MIGLIORE: That would make it like, oh, hey, this is actually really fun.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm. But yeah, for what amounts to basically different suspension, I was-- it's way more fun than it has any right to be.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's all about expectations too, I think. Like, you and I sound like we're in the same kind of wavelength here. Yeah, you're not expecting much. But you get in there, and you're like, OK, this isn't bad.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm With that being said, though, I don't know who-- I don't know who is this car for? I can't-- I've been thinking about this forever. And like, I mean, I'm glad it exists because it ended up being a pretty nice product. But especially the base price is not much less than this.
The base price is like, $43,000. And that's a lot of money. That's the kind of money that you can buy, like, a V8 Charger. Or you could buy a Stinger GT-- all variety of like, entry-level German sports sedans.
GREG MIGLIORE: I would get a Charger over this. I would get Stinger over this.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the thing is both of those are still fun to drive. But they also ride better too. Like, it's clear that the ride has been compromised on this to improve the handling. It's not completely uncomfortable. But like it's not as well-balanced as cars that kind of set out to be sporty in the first place.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I see what you're saying there.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, like, they made it stiffer. And that was kind of it. And like it did pay off in better handling. But it also does not ride the way you'd expect an Avalon to ride.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: My issue with this-- and I haven't driven one yet. But when Joel asked who is this for is basically my big question mark. This isn't a product that was designed from the outset, this for the performance variant. It was designed at the outset to provide a comfortable Barcalounger for your uncle to drive, you know, from Chicago to Milwaukee three times a month. It's just--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: I mean, a Barcalounger that's fast and can handle, I mean, that's a cool thing to see. But also--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Sure.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --do you really want that?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah, and I think the regular Avalon has, for a long time, not just this generation, been kind of a sleeper buy for people. It's been usuably bigger than the Camry. But you don't really give up that much other than maybe some image. But CPO Avalons are way cheaper than CPO Camrys-- all things considered, you know, adjusted for content and so forth.
But like, yeah, I mean, this is in my mind, the front grille is not great. And I don't understand who it's for. If I want something sporty for that amount of money, I would pay for virtually any other option, including the Stinger, about 9,000 times over because the Stinger makes sense. Like, I understand what the Stinger is. I don't understand what, like, the Japanese Buick wearing a track suit is.
I need to drive it and see if maybe it makes more sense to me. But like, it just-- this seems like, there was an internal mission that everything had of a TRD variant. And this is just how they kind of slapped it together. It sounds like from your guy's perspective, it works better driving than you would think. But it doesn't strike me as something that they had in mind from the beginning with this model, right?
GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, absolutely not. I gotta believe there's somebody who is probably on like the Avalon Product Planning Team from whenever they launch this new generation. And there probably was this like corporate, like, mandate to expand TRD. Maybe not Avalon, per se. But they're like, OK, we're going to grow TRD, which is what they've said the last couple of years.
We knew that more variants were to come. And then they probably walk into the Avalon part of Toyota headquarters in Plano, Texas. And they're like, all right, guys. We're going to do this to the Avalon. And the guy's head probably exploded. And he's like, what? Like, no, this isn't what we set out to do, you know.
It reminds me a little bit of when Buick was doing press trips to the Nurburgring a few years back for the Regal different versions. I think it was the Regal GS, although, that was legit because those were Opals that were, in fact, designed to go on the Nurburgring. Like, that made sense. This is-- I don't know. What I'll say about this is the economy is good. The car industry is healthy.
Right now, we have a lot of sort of strange desserts and appetizers that maybe we don't need. And when times get tough, they'll disappear. You know Darwinism. For now, I'll just enjoy my 300-plus horsepower V6 Avalon for a weekend. And, you know, it kind of reminds me that sedans are kind of fun. I think they are, you know, like normal sedans.
Like, it seems like we're in the space right now where it's either like a 392 charger or it's getting killed off in the name of some other weird lifted hatch crossover thing. So, you know, I give Toyota credit for this, although, yeah, who knows what the plan is here. It's like, they must have drawn it up on a napkin. And they're like, OK.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, and a couple of final points about like, why this seems like it's a car for no one. There's also the fact that-- so we've established like, sporty car buyers already have a lot of options. The other problem is, is that Avalon buyers don't buy an Avalon to be sporty. Like Alex said, I mean, you buy it because it's a company thing to cruise across the country in.
I don't think any Avalon buyers are really saying, you know what it really needs? It needs to ride worse. And it needs to look meaner. And I don't think anybody is saying that.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Do you know who-- do you know who is saying that if I can jump in for a second, because I think I need to get this in here.
GREG MIGLIORE: Car journalists, maybe? I don't know.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: People that saw the demographics in Avalon and said we need to get a younger buyer into this car. And this is like, OK, I'll be blunt. This is, in my opinion, the wrong way to do it, right? The right way is design a product from the outset that naturally appeals to them. The wrong way is to put grandpa in a tracksuit. Like I said earlier, you know, that doesn't make grandpa a marathon runner. That makes grandpa an old guy in a tracksuit.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, and Toyota doing that in the first place is shooting themselves in one foot. Shooting themselves in the other foot is also offering the Camry TRD, which has the exact same engine, the same level of suspension tuning I think actually even a little bit more. So it's even better handling ostensibly.
It looks even more aggressive. And the kicker is that it starts at about $31,000, $32,000. So it's $10,000 less for a lighter car with the exact same engine and probably better handling. So who is the Avalon for?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: It's for that mystery number on the spreadsheet, you know, like on the PowerPoint presentation that said, here are the younger buyers. And they'll come to this if we make it a TRD. It's a car built for PowerPoint presentations.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I'll say this too. I think it's a fairly, like, low impact exercise. Like, they make this. They don't sell them. Toyota still makes a ton of money. The Avalon still is going to sell how they need it to sell. This is just probably some random car that we're going to talk about years from now. Like, remember when they did a Toyota TRD Avalon-- sort of like the Dodge Avenger Heat? You know, they just become answers to like, trivia questions.
I think the bigger issue is when you see brands, like Cadillac, trying to become this brand of, you know, crazy, super sedans. And their buyer wasn't having it for years. And they kept going down that road. And, you know, car journalists love their cars. They were amazingly tuned, powerful, not great interiors.
But they looked pretty good on the outside depending on your preference. And that was like a whole brand strategy. This is like, hey, we're going to take one tip of the spear and just mess around with it. So I think this is sort of a harmless foray.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, and you mentioned that, well, it's like low impact and harmless. And I do kind of wonder how much of the Avalon's underpinnings are similar to the Camry, because they could have gone into those being like, OK, we're definitely going to do Camry--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: That makes sense.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --because it's high volume. And like--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Motorsports.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm And Honda's getting some attention for like, its manual transmission Accord and how it's sporty. So maybe we can kind of capitalize on that buyer. And maybe while they were developing it they were like, oh, hey, you know, the Avalon's not that much different. Maybe we could also develop a couple of parts pretty on the cheap for that too. So that might have been something.
GREG MIGLIORE: Hmm. That's civilized. I'd agree with that. So how about-- this is probably not on the cheap, but we'll do a segue way. Let's spend some money. All right, this is a good one. This comes from-- Moises writes us from San Diego. A big fan of the podcast-- love hearing you guys talk about car buying decisions and all that stuff. Hey, thanks for listening-- really appreciate that.
So he is a midsize crossover that is basically his daily driver-- does commuting and all that stuff. He's looking for something that's a little bit more fun for his off hours. Cars he's looked at so far-- 2016 BMW M4 Coupe, an M4 convertible, 13 Porsche Boxster S, 2019 Golf R, 2013 BMW 335is Convertible.
He's looking for a manual. Something with less than 40,000 miles. Budget is roughly $39 to $42K. That's a very precise sort of bookends there-- appreciate that-- wants something that won't be too expensive to maintain over the next, say, 47 years, looking for opinions and some options. Yeah, basically at the end of the day, he just wants something to have fun with on the weekends on the road in Socal.
So lots to kind of digest here. Usually I go last. I'm going to go first this time, because I really like the Boxster. And I think it's a good-looking car. I think you get a Porsche. I think I've always had a soft spot for the Boxster. I think it has a-- I don't know-- a distinctive flair and dynamic compared with some of the other ones here.
I'm not going to say you can really go wrong with any of these. But when I look at this just at sort of like at a glance in a car that I would feel strongly about and something, when you're looking at something for your second car for fun when you're driving a crossover already, I think you can't go wrong with a Porsche, generally. So that's my position. Let's flip it over to Joel.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So, yeah. I mean, my first choice out of those is definitely the Boxster. That is going to be by far the most engaging car of those there. It's got the best steering, the best handling. It's a car that makes you part of the experience. It's like an expensive mid-engine Miata. Like, it's that next level up. It's the more power-- a little more sophisticated nicer interior. But it's still that level of like, really engaging, really fun.
I mean, the reasonably reliable-- I don't think there's not-- don't know offhand of any, like, disastrous things. Yeah, I mean, of those, that's the thing that jumps to mind. I would probably skip, like-- especially like, if you're looking at a BMW 3 Series Convertible versus BMW M4, they're two completely different things.
Like, I think you would probably actually be disappointed with just the regular 3 series if like, you really think you want an M4. Yeah, and the thing is, you've got lots of options there. I mean, a Chevy Corvette could be a really good option-- get the--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's a different take on things, yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I mean, still good handling. But you get like a nice rumbly V8 that would sound good out in Canyon roads. Actually, depending on how prices are in your area, you could maybe even find like a C6 Z06. That would be an epic vehicle for backroads driving. I mean, yeah, you've got a lot of choices. I think Boxster is very strong. I think Corvette would be a good one. What do you think, Alex?
ALEX KIERSTEIN: I really like the Corvette. I'm looking at prices in my area. And I'm seeing, you know, lower mile C7, Z51s for like, 41, 42. They're right in this price point. I noticed his list is all German cars. So I'm thinking-- it's just a guess-- that he's interested in something that sort of European sophisticated.
The Corvette is not that. The Corvette's a lot of bang for the buck. But it might not satisfy what he wants the like, sort of interior and exterior experience to be. But, I mean, I agree with Joel. If I had $42,000 to spend, and all I wanted was to have the most amount of fun I could, it would be a late model used Z51-- no questions asked. It's a great vehicle, great to drive.
You know, speaking of big Miata's, it feels like a big Miata to me. The C7 has always felt like a giant Miata-- not giant, but like, massive power-- a little less immediate and direct. But I like the Boxster idea. I don't know if inexpensive to maintain is something I would associate with Boxster.
I think with all German cars, you need to stay on top of all of the maintenance all the time. Otherwise, they really bite you. So if you're willing to spend to keep the Boxster in tip-top shape that it will hold its value well, find one with a bunch of records. Sure, that's fine.
I think if you're looking at M3's, M4's, there's no reason in my mind not to look at an M2. Used M2 manuals are in that price range. You know, you're probably pushing with top end of the price range there. If history is any indicator, they will not drop as fast as other BMWs.
I don't think this will be like the 1M coupe where, like, they never were below MSRP ever. And now you can't find them. The best attributes of modern BMWs in a best package is significantly better in my mind than any other M car right now. And the manual is really good.
So I think M2's probably closest to what he's looking for that's not on the list and maybe the best overall buy. I don't know, though. Also Golf car's really good. It's just really, really silly fun on a back road. And I think you can have more fun at lower speeds than you can with the other vehicles here. The other vehicles are real quick.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That's true. Something--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah, go ahead.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That reminds me, though. And I've talked about this with a number of colleagues and friends from other publications and stuff. And a lot of us would probably pick a regular GTI over a Golf R. I don't know how you feel on that, Alex.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: [SIGHS] I mean, I think the Golf R, what it has going for it is some rarity-- probably will hold its value, I mean, in much more limited production than a GTI. Moises seems to be looking at things that are what I would say to be more special than more of a good value. And I think the Golf R is much more special than a regular GTI.
Is it necessarily worth premium? I don't know. I mean, you know, there's also Audi S3. I mean, that's very similar mechanically-- slightly different form factor. I like it. I mean, a lot of people said it's just an expensive Golf R. But I kind of like it. I don't know.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Because I've always felt like the GTI is actually a little bit more engaging than the Golf R.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Oh, sure. But I think the Golf R might have more muscle and that might satisfy. Again, I'm speculating. I don't know. I mean, it be interesting. You know, hopefully, he listens. We love to hear sort of, A, what your thoughts are on what we've suggested and then what you end up going out and driving and then what you ended up buying, because I love to hear about how you've disregard-- how the buyer disregards all of our terrible advise and just gets what they thought they should get all along. No, I'm joking. It's fun to hear about what people end up getting. I really like that.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and it's one of these things we're like, I think in some ways, I mean, you could also find cars that are as good or better for even less than this budget. I mean, someone that was jumping to my mind was like, a Honda S2000 would be a fantastic backroads bomber. And, I mean, you can find those all day for under $25,000.
[? ALEX KIERSTEIN: ?] But if you want to get a club racer.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. That might be a little tricky to find.
GREG MIGLIORE: Little harder, but yeah.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Yeah. And, you know, I also think older, like, 997 911's are a pretty good deal. They look a lot better than 996's. You can throw some aftermarket parts at them. They're phenomenal, small, and exotic-looking and not that expensive. What else is out there?
GREG MIGLIORE: Since we're like--
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Go ahead.
GREG MIGLIORE: I was going to say, since we're totally like, spitballing here, I would throw an RX8 into the mix. You know, probably be a bit cheaper. That's a very interesting car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Except he said he didn't want to spend much on maintenance.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, all right. Fair enough-- fair enough. But I don't know. I think that would be a fun one.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Although that would be cheap enough that he would have budget leftover.
[? GREG MIGLIORE: ?] Yeah, budget leftover. You know, save what you were going to spend on the Porsche or BMW and just kind of earmark $8,000 worth of maintenance. And, you know, hey, you're the only guy on the block with a rotor engine.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, of course, you also always got the Miata and the 124 spiders options. That's about the most fun you can have on four wheels. It's not fast, but it's fun,
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true. And for 40-some-thousand dollars-- I think 42 was his ceiling-- I mean, hey, you know, you could get both those cars well within that price range.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Do you know what you could do for that price? You could pick an NC-- a nice clean NC, even an NC with a blown motor, taking a [? fine ?] Miata and have them put an LS in it. [LAUGHS] And then, I mean, I've driven an NC with an LS in it. It's hard to have much more fun than that. Those cars are amazing with a V8. So, I mean, that would be wild and different, interesting-- would not be stocked. But maintenance would be not an issue. It uses pretty much bone stock LS. So that could be interesting.
GREG MIGLIORE: Well, I think we've done what we always do, which is sort of pick from his list, then add some of our own that just completely blow up the field instead of growing out things, like, well, if you want to dip down to this price point, you can do this.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So narrow it down, I think we feel pretty good that like a Boxster or Corvette might be kind of the sweet spot.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, those, I think are pretty solid choices if you want to like, do some, like, you know, watercolors painting, if you will. There are some other options out there. You could really want to get creative with how you want to spend your money or just some compromises you might be willing to make in the sake of design or just you want to have something unique, that's totally fine. But, yeah, Boxster, Corvette.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: M2.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And M2.
GREG MIGLIORE: M2, I'm sorry.
ALEX KIERSTEIN: Well, I mean, based on his list, I think at a minimum, Moises should go and drive an M2. You know, no, I won't worry at all if that he doesn't decide it's for him. But I think based on what he's got on the list, it be a crime not to, at least, check it out.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm.
GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. All right. I think we've digested this one quite thoroughly. We'll leave it there. If you enjoy the "Autoblog Podcast," please leave us a five-star rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts-- Android devices, all that good thing. Please reach out to us on Twitter. Send us your spend my moneys.
Last week is the final podcast of the year. We'll be back, of course, in 2020. So if you have a final "Spend My Money," get it in. It's been a fun show. We'll see you next week.
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