New car buyers: diesels, yes, hybrids, hmm...
TThe J.D. Power and Associates Alternative Powertrain Study has found that hybrid consideration among new car buyers is slipping, albeit only slightly. At the same time, the willingness to consider a clean diesel is growing. Overall, 7% fewer buyers are adding a hybrid to their list of potentials, but in the 16-25 age group the drop is actually 13%. For some reason, the hybrid message is getting lost on the people just entering the car buying market. One possible reason could be that, according to the study, buyers wanted to pay no more than $2,396 extra for a hybrid over a traditional competitor, but get 18.5 mpg more. As those shoppers have discovered that hybrids can't provide that cost/benefit ratio yet, they are perhaps staying with the standard option. It's not much different in the diesel category, with folks willing to pay $1,491 and expecting 15 mpg better. However, the perceived benefit of diesels is opposite that of hybrids -- hybrids could be coming down off the pedestal, while more people are realizing that diesels are fuel efficient and, finally, clean.
[Source: J.D. Power and Associates]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
carluvr 6:53PM (7/17/2007)
Audi A5 with a 3.0 Diesel. 0-60 in 6 secs.
About time they are making it over here. About 50% of Audi's sold in Europe are diesels.
I feel Americans buy HP but drive Torque
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zamafir 8:03PM (7/17/2007)
If the A5 TDI makes it state side, I will most certainly replace the hybrid camry with one. Oh how I yearn for Audi to bring it over.
Carlos 7:04PM (7/17/2007)
It's not that we've all decided hybrids suck. It's that a few years ago we were told our favorite vehicle type would be available in hybrid form by now, and sure we would consider it. A few years later, the choice in hybrids hasn't gone up much at all, and none of them seem effective besides the ones that already existed. (ie, the Highlander, RX, and LS hybrids don't seem worth it, though the Camry and Altima are justifiable.)
The number of Prius considerers has probably just gone down because the novelty's worn off and it's an older model already. Dunno about the Escape and Mariner, I don't see many of them but the non-hybrid versions don't seem to get a lot of consideration either.
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realistic 7:23PM (7/17/2007)
what they NEED to do is make a diesel-electric hybrid (it's not as ridiculously expensive as france claims when they did a concept car with it) and it would offer superior mileage and diesels can be very sporty and quick. Audi's R10 TDI racecar is a perfect example of the potential with diesel engines. By coupling it with a hybrid assist powertrain like Toyota's Prius and put into cars and most light duty trucks ( like let's say.. a ford ranger all the way on up to a ford f 550. nothing commercial use) it would work out just fine, and even if it wasn't as complex as the Prius but more basic like what Honda uses for the hybrid portion of it, it would still offer a great powertrain. Also add to that biodiesel fuel and viola, a highly reduced emissioned green diesel sporty car or sporty truck with alot more torque thaan most gas engines give you (stock, not something super stroked out and huge). I just think it sucks that people are dismissing hybrids and other advanced technologies, giving up almost on reaching to better themselves and staying too far in the past as the time passes us by. I know not everyone is backward minded but I'd like to see more positive thoughts and grasps toward a better tomarrow.
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Jared 7:34AM (7/18/2007)
Realistic, you need to actually get realistic.
"what they NEED to do is make a diesel-electric hybrid (it's not as ridiculously expensive as france claims when they did a concept car with it)"
Wrong. It IS ridiculously expensive. The diesel engine itself is a $1000 premium over a similar gas engine. The cost to meet the new US pollution control regs coming in the next year or two is another $1000. That's a $2000 premium for the diesel engine alone. Now add the hybrid drive train -- that's an additional $3000-$4000 premium.
So the added cost of a diesel-hybrid versus a gasoline engine is around $5000 to $6000. $5000 to $6000 will buy quite a bit of gasoline.
Furthermore, hybrids work best at low speeds in cities. This is precisely where gasoline engines are at their least efficient. In contrast, diesel engines are much more efficient at idle than gasoline engines. Consequently, adding a hybrid to diesel engine gives you less added efficiency than adding a hybrid to a gasoline engine.
Most gasoline-electric hybrids are not economical as it is -- the payback period takes far too long to make economic sense. Going to a diesel hybrid would increase the powertrain cost by $2000 but yield precious little increase in economy, thus making the economics of the package worse, not better.
Guenther 7:23PM (7/17/2007)
It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that most hybrids out there simply underperform when it comes to fuel saving. At the same time, Diesels tend to match the EPA estimates. You can't overlook the fact, that this agegroup is much better informed on technology that the peddlers give them credit for. Many of these "kids" can't even remember a time before the internet.
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Alan 7:26PM (7/17/2007)
Diesel = Massive Torque. Europe has known this for years and has been able to benefit from it. It's time the United States consumer learned what the rest of the world has known for a long time. Once Diesels get more prevalent, there will be no real room for a hybrid in most of the vehicle marketplace. IMO, I could never feel very 'cool' driving a Toyota Prius. Now give me 400ft/lbs torque and 40 MPG in a Turbo Diesel V6 Coupe and I'm happy.
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Dub 8:08PM (7/17/2007)
Hybrids are ok, but as time passes they're going to look more like complex, expensive to maintain Rube Goldberg devices. Clean diesel can provide the same kind of fuel efficiency (30-50% compared to comparable conventional gasoline engines) with a much more elegant (simple) technical solution. As anyone who has experienced them can testify, there is no appreciable downside from the standpoint of driveability perfromance. That, I suspect will bear the test of time.
Common Sense 8:15PM (7/17/2007)
With the new EPA emissions standards about to take effect, the chances for diesel making a splash here is even slimmer. No one wants the hassle of finding a diesel station. Diesel folks are always touting Euro mileage standards, but those are different then US ones. You'd know that a Euro Civic Hybrid produces well above the Civic diesel. Hybrids also show their most effectiveness in city driving.
I'm sorry, but VW, Jeep, and Mercedes are all crap brands. They can roll out diesels, but the quality of their products is still pathetic.
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Nick 8:53PM (7/17/2007)
I completely agree, with the EPA emissions standards diesel's aren't going to be able to go far. If only these strict emissions standards were less constricting diesels would make complete sense when selecting them over hybrids on a budget. Hybrid technology is rapidly excelerating towards stabilizing the cost/benefit ratio enough for all to accept and in a few years hybrids will explode again.
Geoffrey Nichols 7:58PM (8/27/2007)
I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree with "Common Sense," which stated that VW products are all crap! We bought a new VW Jetta Turbo-diesel in 1999, and with 150,000 miles on the odometer at present, it is still getting 52mpg on trips, and averages 48.4mpg around town & on short trips, which means we get between 700 and 800 miles on one fillup! And we buy 80/20 biodiesel for $2.76/gal, which is 13c/gal cheaper than regular diesel fuel. This is the quietest, most powerful, and lowest maintenance diesel car we have ever had, and we have had several non-turbo diesel cars and truck in the past, and with the turbo, there is plenty of power and torque available; i.e., we will NEVER sell it or trade it in!
... 8:09PM (7/17/2007)
wtf is wrong with these people? They expect something for almost nothing. They want an extra 18.5 mpg but don't think they should pay more than an extra 2396$? And alan there who wants an engine with 400 ft/lbs of torque and expects 40 mpg out of it. reminds me of a simpsons quote, "I want all my groceries in one bag. but i don't want the bag to be heavy." Its just not going to happen. Hybrids are not the future, but more so than diesels. The final goal is an electric car, which could be powered by a hydrogen generator, or something to that respect(you may disagree, use your imagination). It is important that hybrids get some success to encourage development of new batteries and technologies.
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ZenerDiode 8:54PM (7/17/2007)
One problem (among several) with the mass adoption of diesel vs hybrids is the price of diesel will sky-rocket as the demand goes up as the production capability climbs at a slower rate. Moreover, in the east coast, diesel competes with home heating oil rates since both are produce in the same refinery (they are essentially the same product, except diesel has less sulfur) . Currently, there is already a dearth of diesel refueling stations...if more people were to switch to diesel, I can already see the long lines at the local truck stop.
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Yggdrasilly 9:13PM (7/17/2007)
I think people are getting the message about hybrids, but I think they're reaching their own conclusions about it.
Namely, that a Yaris or FiT can get 65%-75% of the Prius's mileage at 40%-60% of the cost. Plus they're more readily available.
If you want a family sedan, the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla get 30 mpg in-town, about 40 on the highway and cost several grand less than a prius. And there's TONS of them around.
And these figures only improve when compared to non-Prius hybrids.
The Prius is a great piece of engineering, and you could spend your inheritance or trust fund payments on worse things. But most people who need to save gas that badly, can't afford it. And those who can afford it, don't need to save gas.
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ugh! 10:24PM (7/17/2007)
well, diesel MPG on upcoming Jetta sportswagon (from this very website) sadi 60hwy/40city/50 combined avg, and under 20K to start(base model?).
1) Are diesels(blutec) Noisey, like trucks with diesels?
2) do they still smell bad?
I am sure many American would say forget it.
Hybrid:
My gripe is MSRP. 22Kfor the Civic?
The so-called Aura hybrid, 35MPG( just sad, and why bother?), Prius 23-28K or so.
Rumors have the Prius as being 3 cars( liek Scion?) fromone site(was it here?)...
recently.
Think Edmunds..
anyhow...
current model will gain size, maybe few MPG.
Then a "Big" prius by 2010, and a smaller-than(current) Corolla model(not sure if CY or MY) 2011.
if they could build one, liek the small model, 0-60 in under 10 seconds(say closer to 9, like the Nissan Versa CVT), maybe 50MPG city/45 Hwy, 47-48 combined(and keep it UNDER 20 K MSRP)...yeah.
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Jared 7:37AM (7/18/2007)
"1) Are diesels(blutec) Noisey, like trucks with diesels?
2) do they still smell bad?"
1) No. They are not. They are quite quiet. You may hear some mild diesel clatter at idle if the window is open, but it is nowhere near the noise of a truck diesel.
2) No.
Aaron 11:21PM (7/17/2007)
I read this and wondered... I wonder how many of the almost 100% increase in prius sales this year have gone to wannabe green fleets? Sales have almost doubled, yet we read this..
I'll look forward to that data in 6 months I guess since we just weighed in on sept 06 - feb 07 as "the first half of 07" lol..
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Rob 3:09AM (7/18/2007)
Perhaps it's because us younger folk aren't buying the industry's bullshit, and we realize in order to actually help the environment, we need to QUIT BUYING EVERYTHING NEW ALL THE TIME. In many recent studies, they found that the emissions and pollution from CREATING a car are WAY WAY WAY higher than the pollution that a car will ever create on the roads travelling over 1 million miles. We also realize that hybrids, being more complex, will require more maintenence, and also require more resources to create and maintain, since the batteries need to be replaced. Also, on hybrids that use lithium ion batteries, li-ion batteries are ONLY produced in Japan and China, and are then needed to be shipped across the globe. Also, China has zero respect for the environment, or worker safety, so supporting products that heavily use chinese goods is also horrible for the environment.
The truth is a 1984 Honda CRX gets about the same MPG as a new Toyota Prius, but is LIGHTYEARS better for the environment, it's simpler to maintain, and has a far lesser environmental footprint since it was already built over 20 years ago.
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ItGuy 10:06AM (7/18/2007)
What you "younger folk" forget is old stuff needs to be produced. In order for you to "feel green" you need a constant supply of old things (used cars). If everyone bought used cars at some point the supply of new cars would dry up. Then your used cars would dry up as well.
Being "green" is good, but don't buy into the global warming hype. The planet has been warming up since the Ice Age and while we probably arn't helping it, we probably can't stop it either. Fortunately, unlike the dinosaurs we as humans should be smart enough to adapt. Sadly most of us are lemmings.
Hybrids are pretty much pointless with the mediocre MPG gains and the expense. I'd consider a diesel as my next car - no ptoblem at all. Most of the gas stations around here sell Diesel (I'm in PA), it's about the cost of regular unleaded. If you're looking for Diesel - hit the highway - most highway gas stations sell Diesel and the price is not that much more expensive than the others.
ItGuy 10:05AM (7/18/2007)
What you "younger folk" forget is old stuff needs to be produced. In order for you to "feel green" you need a constant supply of old things (used cars). If everyone bought used cars at some point the supply of new cars would dry up. Then your used cars would dry up as well.
Being "green" is good, but don't buy into the global warming hype. The planet has been warming up since the Ice Age and while we probably arn't helping it, we probably can't stop it either. Fortunately, unlike the dinosaurs we as humans should be smart enough to adapt. Sadly most of us are lemmings.
Hybrids are pretty much pointless with the mediocre MPG gains and the expense. I'd consider a diesel as my next car - no ptoblem at all. Most of the gas stations around here sell Diesel (I'm in PA), it's about the cost of regular unleaded. If you're looking for Diesel - hit the highway - most highway gas stations sell Diesel and the price is not that much more expensive than the others.
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