In yet another installment of the Mazda RX-8 customer satisfaction drama, we can confirm that the manufacturer will announce a voluntary recall on 2004, 2005 and some 2006 model year RX-8s. Mazda has confirmed to us that owners will be receiving notices in the next month or so, as the company is doing a staggered roll-out across the country.
Mazda has also told us that the repairs needed for each RX-8 will vary based on tests performed by each dealer. Automotive News is reporting that each car will receivea vacu um test to check for oil leaks, and those vehicles suffering from sealing problems will receive new Renesis side-port rotary engines. Robert Davis, head of product development and quality at Mazda, told Automotive News that the company does not want dealers tearing into the engines, and instead will send the defective motors to its remanufacturing plant in North Carolina. Each vehicle will also receive a check of its starting system, as that supposedly has been problematic. Davis described the campaign as "white-glove treatment".
Mazda claims that the problem is brought on by hot climates or the usage of synthetic oil. If the oil is allowed into the combustion chamber, it eventually reaches the catalytic converter and causes a malfunction of that emissions-control device.
[Source: Rotary News]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
dreesemonkey @ Aug 24th 2006 11:13AM
No big deal, just about every car produced may be effected. Yikes.
Matt @ Aug 24th 2006 11:20AM
With all the problems associated with the first gen Wankel, it's too bad that this "improved" motor is still not right. Mazda may have real trouble selling rotary powered cars in the future. Good thing this was not a huge selling car for Mazda.
SteveK @ Aug 24th 2006 11:35AM
I was really hot for the RX-8 when it first came out, read about everything I could find on it, took it for a test drive, etc. I could pretty much quote the options prices, I knew so much about it. But then the reviews started coming in, and the service bulletins, etc. Mazda seems to make some really nice cars, but I'm definitely glad I didn't bite on the RX-8. What a failure.
RevTo9K @ Aug 24th 2006 11:41AM
We'll have to wait and see how many engines require replacement, and how many will just need an ECU reflash. At low cruising RPMs, the oil injected into the rotors has been insufficient. Cars operated extensively in this way are susceptible to damaged apex seals, and may require an engine replacement. High ambient temperatures in dry climates can exacerbate this problem. Cars that were typically run at higher RPMs throughout their lives likely got plenty of oil, and have seals that are just fine. Those cars will receive the ECU reflash that increases the amount of oil at cruise. Kudos go to Mazda for not just ducking the problem, but actually bringing in every car and trying to fix them at great expense.
sirAQUAMAN64 @ Aug 24th 2006 11:50AM
Again, Mazda always does the right thing for their customers and I continue to think very highly of them for it.
Matt @ Aug 24th 2006 12:17PM
Well, Mazda did plan to "cook" the owner satifaction numbers for this car. When that became public, the attention may have impacted their handling of this problem. Or maybe not.
Corporations have one main goal; to make money. Not all recognize the longterm benefit of customer goodwill and word-of-mouth reputation. Maybe Mazda is an exception.
Michael Karesh @ Aug 24th 2006 12:19PM
This is one of my favorite cars, absolutely cannot be beat for the price. Where else can you get a great-handling, purpose-built sports car with a usable rear seat for $20,000?
Link to my review, based on hundreds of miles on some of the country's most challenging roads, here:
http://www.truedelta.com/models/RX-8.php
To the extent that there's a problem, they're fixing it. This car deserves to do much better than it has been doing.
epp_b @ Aug 24th 2006 12:29PM
["Mazda claims that the problem is brought on by hot climates or the usage of synthetic oil. If the oil is allowed into the combustion chamber, it eventually reaches the catalytic converter and causes a malfunction of that emissions-control device."]
Sounds accurate to me (also sounds like user error). Every RX owner I know of has said not to use synthetic oil in a rotary engine simply because it's made to slowly burn oil by design. Synthetic oil doesn't burn as easily as real oil, so it will cause problems for RX rotaries. I've also been told that rotories require a higher (thicker) grade of [real] oil for hotter weather; and, that, if that is done so, it will run fine.
If this is, indeed, the case, Mazda is really going the extra mile and RX owners daren't complain, because this is user error, not Mazda's fault.
Terry @ Aug 24th 2006 12:35PM
I have a 2005 Rx-8. Not one problem. Ever. And I drive it like I stole it. You always see the bad with any news like this. All manufactures have issued recalls. I just wish they would have made a turbo version....I miss my 93 Rx-7 TT. Oh and I had 80k miles on the original turbos and motor. Had it rebuilt and ported at that point and the mechanic said it looked like new when he tore it apart. Problem with the rotary motor is most people don't know how to care for it or its quirks.
djSyndrome @ Aug 24th 2006 12:36PM
"Where else can you get a great-handling, purpose-built sports car with a usable rear seat for $20,000?"
Not from Mazda; the RX-8 starts at $27k.
spdracerut @ Aug 24th 2006 12:38PM
It is a great overall car, but has only had issues with it's motor. I wonder how many owners went and put in synthetic motor oil? I didn't learn this until later that rotaries should only use dino oil. Interesting point about running at higher revs.... that was also a problem on Nissan/Infiniti cars equipped with the SR20DE and automatics. Many owners with automatics ever drove the car hard leading to clogged oil tubes in the engine head. Just goes to show, you need to beat on the motor :)
RevTo9K @ Aug 24th 2006 12:50PM
Regarding synthetic oil, what's really unusual is that the RX-8 owners manual clearly states NOT to use synthetic - but Mazda isn't hiding behind the owner's manual. The problem can occur with dino oil too, under certain conditions.
RevTo9K @ Aug 24th 2006 12:53PM
"If the oil is allowed into the combustion chamber, it eventually reaches the catalytic converter and causes a malfunction of that emissions-control device. "
Actually, in rotaries, oil is injected into the combustion chamber, and is supposed to be there; but if not enough oil gets in, and the seals fail, raw GAS will leak into the cat. That's bad.
Ryan @ Aug 24th 2006 12:56PM
I think it would be neat if Mazda offered the 2.3L engine from the Mazda 3 as a "base" kind of thing in the RX-8 for the folks that are a little leary on doing the rotary engine and may just like the look of the car. But I guess that would kind of take the "RX" of the RX-8. Just seems like it would mabye sell more with a more mainstream engine, and of course always have the rotary in the lineup as well.
Jim @ Aug 24th 2006 12:58PM
Consumers don't read the manual,
and people who work at car dealerships can't read.
Mazda should have done it like the Ford GT, only select trained dealerships can handle maintainence of the RX-8. The rest of the shops just mess it up.
ziggy @ Aug 24th 2006 1:22PM
" I think it would be neat if Mazda offered the 2.3L engine from the Mazda 3 as a "base" kind of thing in the RX-8 for the folks that are a little leary on doing the rotary engine and may just like the look of the car."
Sounds like you are just the type of person Mazda is targeting with the Kabura concept. 2500lbs, 2.3l DI Turbo 4cyl, 250hp, 280lb ft torque, 2 door coupe with RX-8 styling, and around $20k. You just have to wait until the '09 model year (if it gets greenlighted for production). With all of these problems the RX-8 is having I see it getting discontinued and replaced with the Kabura. The rotary will take another hiatus from production while Mazda spends some more time re-engineering the zoom-zoom motor. I'm O.K. with that because the 2.3l turbo is a sweet little powerplant.
Jim @ Aug 24th 2006 1:24PM
Mazda hasn't been having a good month. First the Cougar Ace, then new engines for most RX-8s. But on the positive side, the recall is being done voluntarily. Mazda didn't wait for the government to force a recall, this shows that Mazda does want to resolve this problem and move forward.
Here is a automotive video news program that talks more about Mazda's problems (and has some great video of the inside of the cougar Ace).
http://www.cartv.com/content/research/channels/index.cfm/channel/cartv_video/action/showvideo/vid/n_0146/vcat/News/
Jim
Brett @ Aug 24th 2006 1:25PM
Go with Castrol GTX 20-50w. Its what old school rotary drivers recommended to me, and the two RX-7s I've owned were run on it exclusively, with no problems.
I wish I could see the original article, but I'm not going to pay to subscribe. Anyways, if the problem is dead catalysts due to excess unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust, then it sounds like the problem is more likely failed oil seals (not apex seals) and this could be caused by several things. I think this because they would probably run a compression check to evaluate the health of the combustion chamber seals. Plus if your apex seals were damaged your engine would be performing poorly and probably blowing blue smoke. They are probably going to pull a vacuum on the oiling system to see how the oil seals are holding up.
Either
1) The synthetic oil isn't burning and it goes straight to the catalyst causing catalyst deactivation.
2) The polymer oil seals on the rotors don't like the synthetic oil and consequently fail releasing excess oil into the combustion chamber which leads to the deactivation of the catalyst.
3) The polymer oil seals are being dried out due to starving of oil at cruising engine speeds in hot or dry climates leading to failure of the polymer oil seals on the rotors and so on.
This is not a failure of Mazda's rotary engine. A tweak to the oiling control and a bit of owner education on synthetic oils will solve the problem. Mazda has it well in hand. I'm sure that not all synthetics are incompatible, however why would you want to use that type of oil when some of it will be consumed on a regular basis anyways.
jstand6 @ Aug 24th 2006 1:31PM
At my local Mazda dealership here, only Mazda Master Technicians are allowed to work on the rotaries. Also, they used to have a Mazda Master Tech sit down with the customer buying the RX-8 and explain to them to do's and don'ts of rotary engine ownership. I don't know if they do that anymore. As one of the original Mazda dealerships in the U.S., they have had a long time to learn that teaching the owners about the rotary goes a long way, both for engine reliability and customer satisfaction.
I had a first generation RX-7. I knew the do's and don'ts, never lugged the engine, and drove it like I stole it. That car never gave me problems other than having to replace the power hatch release switch and replacing the thermostat at 135,000 miles. The rotary is not for conservative drivers who never want to open the hood. Rotaries are happiest when driven hard and when the redline is visited often.
Ryan @ Aug 24th 2006 1:34PM
"With all of these problems the RX-8 is having I see it getting discontinued and replaced with the Kabura. The rotary will take another hiatus from production while Mazda spends some more time re-engineering the zoom-zoom motor. I'm O.K. with that because the 2.3l turbo is a sweet little powerplant.
-I think you are correct, the RX-8 is on borrowed time. Which is too bad, but that concept car you are talking about does sound pretty sweet. So 2009 eh? The future of "sports/sporty" cars and muscle cars looks like it will be pretty healty by 2010, which seems exciting, if not a little to many flavors to choose from :-)