In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd, who has spent the past few weeks sampling a near-endless string of enthusiast vehicles. They start off discussing Cadillac's 2022 CT4-V and CT5-V Blackwing models, which Byron had the opportunity to drive at Virginia International Raceway. They follow that up with a discussion of the Mercedes-Benz AMG G 63, which Byron also drove on a track, albeit one of a very different sort. After that, some news. Greg and Byron run down the list of returning enthusiasts nameplates, including Integra, Z and Countach, and cap off by talking about what a third-generation Acura NSX might look like.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
[THEME MUSIC]
[MOTOR REVVING]
GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome to the Autoblog Podcast. I'm Greg Migliore. Joining me today is Associate Editor Byron Hurd. We've got a great show for you. We're gonna talk about his experience out at VIR with the Cadillac CT4 and 5 Blackwings. Super excited to talk more about those.
He's been driving the Gelandewagen in G63 form, so that's kind of cool. Always a good time to drive one of those. And we'll run through some news. Lots of names, iconic names, are coming back. We're going to break down those and what we think. So Byron, how the heck are ya, man?
BYRON HURD: I'm doing pretty good. I've had a bit of fun, like, six weeks of cars here with the Blackwings, and the GR86, and the G63, and the Mach One that I drove back at the end of July, too. It's been a busy, busy stretch her for enthusiast cars. So yeah, I can't really complain. How about you?
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm coming back from vacation. I caught four fish. I was pretty excited about that. And I haven't been in a press conference in about a week or 10 days. So we're going to kind of let you talk about the reviews part of it. And then, don't worry, listeners, I am literally driving like three cars this week, so it's gonna be a lot. You'll hear more of my verbose musings coming up.
But I'm super excited to get into these Cadillacs. I think these are two, I will say, of the most significant cars they've done in a while for enthusiasts. These are also the dinosaurs. These are V8 engines, track-bred, to use the cliches.
This is not really the future, you know? The future is autonomous. It's connected. It's EVs. But that future is not here right now, and I think there's always going to be a future in some way for extreme performance.
However, that performance is there. So you know, just my quick take-away of these, and then, obviously, I want to hear what you think. These are what Cadillac-- these are a way Cadillac could be at its fast. I'm honestly not sure Cadillac needs to have like, you know, either the Blackwings, or back when the V series was the top end of, like, the Cadillac-- like the tip of the spear, if you will. I'm not sure they actually have to do that.
I'm really glad they've been doing it for, like, almost, what, 20 years? I think it's awesome. I think there's other approaches. This always leads to the discussion of, what does Cadillac have to do to really come back? Is it like JD Power scores? Is it sales? Is a critical reviews? What is it?
There's so many different ways to do it, and the secret sauce tends to be some sort of combination of Lexus sales volume with BMW and Mercedes like, you know, cachet, and then some sort of like Audi coolness. Like, nobody really has the secret sauce, but it does seem like Cadillac has struggled to really get that mainstream, "we're back" thing, as much as they say they're back. All that being said, they've really put out some awesome cars in the last 20 years for enthusiasts, especially sedans, and even a couple of coupes.
So I mean, I probably wouldn't go with the Blackwing, because I don't need that much performance, but CT4, CT5, I mean, to me, these are really, really nice sports sedans, and you know, they would be on my short list as things I would definitely drive daily. So I mean, why don't you take us through what the track experience was like, though. I mean, VIR is not nothing, let's put it that way. It's one of the more challenging tracks out there. You know, how did they handle when you really, really pushed them?
BYRON HURD: I was very impressed. I mean, obviously, I was impressed enough, I've actually ordered a CT4-V Blackwing of my own. It's been a while since I've gotten behind the wheel of a car and felt so immediately like it, like, perfectly fit me. And it was just a combination of, like, everything kind of falling exactly where it should be in the cabin, the, just, wonderful feel from the manual transmission, and the fact that, like, they actually went out of their way to make it a liveable vehicle. Like it's the kind of car that you can drive every day, that you can also take to the track and expect great things from.
And I mean, they really did prove it by setting us up in VIR. Because like you said, I mean, that's an intimidating track, especially for a first-timer. It was actually the first track I ever drove on in any car, long before I was doing any of this.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's an aggressive baptism, if you will.
BYRON HURD: [LAUGHS] Yeah. Well, and I was driving my Mazda 6. So it wasn't even a Speed 6. Like it was a legit V6, five-speed, five-door family sedan. I stuck some summer tires on it and went on out for an instructed track day, and that's kind of what got me hooked on this whole thing.
So going back out there was fun. They had us on the full course with the chicane added on the back straight, just to kind of keep top speeds down back there, especially because with the newer folks who hadn't been out to that track, there's a really nasty drop-off there, what they call the roller coaster, which comes down from the back straight, and it kind of falls away from you, goes in the wrong direction. And if you go off there, you end up in the woods, and that's not fun. So they wanted to make sure we weren't, you know, knocking on 155 miles an hour going down that straight, knowing that half the people there had no clue what was coming next.
So that said, I was very impressed by both Blackwings. And the CT4-V has the twin turbo six, makes 472 or 473 horsepower. The big boy, the CT5-V Blackwing, has 668 horsepower, supercharged V8. So they're very different cars, and surprisingly, most of the character really-- the differentiation in character really comes from the powertrains, because there's not a really significant size difference between the two of them, and they're both kind of-- this has always been a problem for Cadillac with sedans-- their cars are never the same size as the cars they claim they're competing with. They're always a little bigger, a little smaller, or just like weirdly out of the segment for some reason, and that continues with these.
The CT4 is basically the size of a compact in the classic sense, European luxury car-- so BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C class, Audi A4. But pricing-wise, and also in terms of interior volume, because it's a rear wheel drive chassis, they compete with the subcompact class. So you're going after the BMW 2 Series, and the Audi A3, and the Mercedes A variants. So for value, you're getting a little bit more car with these, but they are a little bigger than everything else you're gonna compare them to based on price.
And so like the CT4, you go into it thinking, OK, Blackwing, 472 horsepower, weighs about 3,800 pounds. I mean, that's a substantial small car, and with rear wheel drive. It rotates beautifully when you get on it. It goes-- it does all the tricks you'd expect from, like, a small, lithe sports sedan.
But then you look at the CT5, and you think, oh, it's the big one. It's got a big V8. It's going to be ponderous, and heavy, and slow. It only weighs about 250 pounds more than the CT4. So realistically, you're talking about a 4,000-pound, midsize-ish in terms of typical family sedans, but for luxury it's still kind of on the smaller end.
That's a lot of car, but you consider, at 4,000 pounds, it weighs less than a generic 5.7-liter Dodge Charger-- and, like, significantly less. Like we're talking hundreds of pounds less. So for being a big car with, like, Hellcat-level power, it doesn't carry Hellcat-level weight. And it'll do 100 and, probably, 60 on the back straight at VIR if it was actually opened up for that kind of movement.
So both of them are surprisingly nimble. The CT4-V, at no point did I actually think, I wish this had a V8. There's nothing about that car that says to me, it needs V8. The CT5-V, though, the V8 fits it perfectly. It's just like that was the car that Cadillac has been trying to build since it introduced the CTS-V way back in-- what was it-- 2004, I want to say, something like that?
So it's just that concentrated essence of V-- like get the most power in a reasonable rear-wheel drive package that doesn't force you into all-wheel drive, because it's just uncontrollable. Big wide tires on the back, enough on the front to actually, like, let you handle. Like it's just-- it's beautiful. It's the kind of car where you can either drive it surgically, you can drive it ham-fisted and be almost as quick just because the engine will make up for all your stupidity, or you can drive it on the road like a luxury car.
And it really does a very good job of being a luxury car. They both do. They're comfortable, they're quiet, and with the latest generation now-- especially with the CT4-V coming from the ATS-V-- which is where all this gets really weird, because that's the car it replaced-- it's much more refined, it's much more comfortable in the street, but they did bring out some of that sportiness. You get, like, the V6 growls like a performance engine, and it should, but it's very subdued most of the time.
And this car is just, like, you can tell, it's still the ATS-V, and they've just refined out all the things about the ATS-V that weren't really ideal, either for performance or for luxury. And they've also added a bunch of interior options, so that you can get these equipped-- not exactly as well as, like, a Mercedes or a BMW, but you can get very nice interior seating upgrades, the fancy quilted leather and all that kind of stuff, where, you know, before, because of the ATS-V's price point, Cadillac was just like, now, this is a sports sedan first and a luxury sedan second, so we're not really going to focus on the interior. And they've addressed that with this, in that, well, if you want the interior, you can add it on.
But for their loyal fans who are coming back from an ATS-V, and like, yeah, we want this, but more, kind of like saying, OK, well, you can have exactly what you had before, just cleaned up and refined, or you can add on some more luxurious appointments, make it feel a little more competitive with the Germans. It's a really nice balance, I think, because at this point, compared to, say, a BMW M3, it starts significantly cheaper, and it maxes out significantly cheaper. But there is a lot of overlap.
Like once you get to about-- I'd say about mid-content on the CT4-V Blackwing, that's where you hit the starting price of a BMW M3. And you're getting just as much performance from the CTS-V-- or, sorry, from the CT4-V-- if not more. You're getting, you know, the same kind of character. It's not even-- it's not just a numbers car; it's a car that generally feels good to drive. It was absolutely spectacular to take it out there.
And getting those things up to-- the 4V, up to 140 or so on the front straight, and the 5V up a little closer to 150, I mean, those-- there's just so much power in those cars, so much refinement in those cars. Those, that platform-- because they are on the same platform, just slightly stretched for the 5-- it's just a beautiful handling platform, and it has been for the longest time. It's an evolution of the same chassis that brought us the Pontiac G8 way back, and, of course, all the Holden variants that were sold in Australia, and then the SS that we got at the tail end of production of that platform.
And everything about that was condensed, concentrated for [? Alpha, ?] which is the platform that we have now under this, under the Camaro. I mean, it's just-- it's beautiful. And we've actually been talking about this in our work chats today. We're like, everything about that platform is fantastic, and we don't understand why people don't buy more of the cars that are built on it. And it's because, as we've kind of concluded, like, they are very enthusiast-oriented, and a lot of the strengths of those platforms really aren't realized by your everyday buyer.
You know, they don't need the sharpest handler. They don't need the best rotation. They're just trying to drive to work. You know, they don't think about those kinds of things. They get in the Camaro, and it's cramped and small. They get in a Cadillac, and it's not as luxurious as a BMW or a Mercedes-Benz. That's all they see.
And I can understand that, you know, especially people who don't care as much about the things that matter to us as enthusiasts just aren't going to be as excited about these cars. But it is, like you said, important that they exist, because, you know, someone's got to build them, right? There's obviously demand for them, and Cadillac sold out their allocation for the 4 and 5-V Blackwings for the first model year. And they'll probably build them for at least a few years-- really, as long as people are willing to continue ordering them, they'll try to keep building them until they just finally have to get rid of their sedans altogether, which, unfortunately, feels inevitable at this point.
So if they were going to keep their sedan platform around, they would have decided to keep that twin turbo Blackwing V8 engine-- which has nothing to do with the Blackwing models-- somewhere in the portfolio. And they've just abandoned that entire push. Everything that they did under the old, we're going to go after the best of the European sports sedans and luxury sedans in the world mission, that's just gone now. So we're left with this nice collection of, kind of, artifacts of that, that attempt, that was never really seen through all the way.
But fortunately, like, what we got out of the program, as far as enthusiasts and as buyers, was very good. I mean, they really kind of took Cadillac's engineers off the leash with this and said, you've got the ATS-V. Make the best ATS-V you can make, and make the best CTS-V you can make. Here's your branding; go have fun.
And they did a really amazing job. And especially for more hardcore folks like me, who are probably going to autocross and track these cars, they come with little baby trunk kits. So the idea is like they'll come with little parts and stuff like that you can install just for going to the track that will improve brake cooling, or revise the aerodynamics ever so slightly under the body. So they're detrimental for fuel economy, and for other reasons, too-- like some of, I think, the brake ducting they offer for the 4-V Blackwing will actually collect stones. If you just drive it on the street, it'll collect a lot of gravel, and you'll have to remove the parts and shake them off. So you don't want to leave those on the car all the time. It's really just a track thing.
But you know, little touches like that that you don't get, especially from American manufacturers-- I mean, apart from really special cars like the Demon, which had its infamous trunk kit. You know, it's just not-- it's not something you see. It's something you read about on, like, old Mercedes 16-valves and BMW M-cars from, like, the late '80s and early '90s, when it was like, well, this stuff isn't approved for the street, but we'll stick it in the trunk for you, and you can do what you want with it. It's kind of nice to still get something like that. You know, it feels like you're involved in making the car better before you go out and take it on a track or take it through an autocross course.
So little things like that really appeal to us and just don't appeal to anybody else. [LAUGHS] And so it's really kind of helped me get a lot more excited about these cars than I was, even just from experiencing them behind the wheel.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's really kind of a-- like you know, the more you describe the Blackwings, the more it really feels like such a subset of, like, buyer, you know? Like, they come with, like, trunk track day things, you know, and just all the performance. And even the way they're sort of like set up as far as size, and the way they, like, kind of like bleed over into different segments, that's actually, I think, very interesting, just even looking at the CT-4 and CT-5 in general.
Because Cadillac has long argued-- I went on the CT-6 launch, jeez, years ago at this point, and they admitted that that was kind of a tweener between like, say, a 5 Series and 7 Series. Size-wise, it wasn't that much different, but it did kind of just float over. And they would always argue, well, if you want 7 Series content, pay more. We have that for you. If you want, like, a 5 Series car, well, this one's actually not that much bigger and, you know, you're probably still going to be driving it. You might want a car that's slightly smaller than, say, the 7 Series or the S class, so we have that for you, and we can actually get it in your price point.
They've sort of argued, you know, hey, the consumer doesn't shop the way auto journalists shop-- on many different levels, you know? They're going to look at, maybe, a big sedan, then, like, a compact crossover, then maybe a midsize crossover, and then, like, a Jeep or a Subaru gets thrown in there just because those are the two brands that everybody thinks they're in the market for, and that's just the way the world works. It's not the way, like, we neatly break things down in, like, our buying guides and our comparisons.
And I think there's some truth to that, to be quite honest-- you know, to be very self-aware as an automotive journalist who always naturally tries to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, that's not how people work. I mean, frankly, when I'm looking for cars for my family, that's not how I think. It's like, well, that's cool. We might want that, OK, but it's a little small. But we still kind of want it, so let's move this thing in here and look at the cost.
Anyways, so I think Cadillac's not crazy to do it this way. And I think especially with their lineup of sedans is small and likely not going to get any larger, you've got to cover-- you've got to sort of zone up, if you will, rather than try to play man-to-man against Mercedes and BMW, you know? I think that does make some sense, you know?
I don't know, when I look at these cars, too, I think they're amazing from a style perspective. I think when you saw Cadillac move from, like, the ATS and the CTS-- which, in some ways, were very, like, severe designs. I really feel like Cadillac has taken these, even in the Blackwood form, these cars are very, like, in-your-face machines, but they still have almost like a very put-together, like, elegance.
To me, this is like what Cadillac was in the '60s, when they were at their best, in my opinion. Like everybody has their favorite era of cars and car designs. Cadillac, late '50s, fins, headlights-- sure. We just saw that at the Woodward Dream Cruise. But to me, when they were, like, really styling automobiles, look at like a '62 Coupe DeVille or something. And I sort of see echoes of that look in these cars.
I mean, I'm sure there's no-- I mean, I'm sure Cadillac would love it if I was linking those two cars, when there really is no heritage connection. But to me, when I look at those cars, it's like, oh, yeah, Cadillac was like saying, hey, we are going to build the best car in 1962, or '65, or '70, because, frankly, they probably were. You know, there was Lincoln, and overseas competitors. Like, Mercedes would come in. But yeah, at that time, Cadillac could walk into the room and say, yeah, we own the place.
And that's, to me like, the confidence you're seeing in the CT-4 and CT-5. Which is probably higher praise than I'm even intending it to be, but I just think they really got the looks right. And it's a good way to make your car look imposing but still tasteful, you know? I mean, so yeah, I think these things look great.
BYRON HURD: I absolutely agree. In fact, I was on the road the other day, somewhere on the highway out here, and saw a CT5-V, just a regular CT5-V, in white, and it looked fantastic on the road. And I'm like, I'm one of those dudes, when I first saw the CT5, I wasn't super thrilled with some of the rear end styling elements. I'm not a huge fan of the kink in the C pillar and some other little elements like that. But when I see it in person, that kind of like melts away into the larger design, and I think it has great road presence. And they just really nailed that classic three-box sedan. Like it's just-- it looks beautiful to me.
And honestly, like, there's one or two styling elements about the CT4 that I'm not super thrilled about. Like, the trunk is just kind of like-- once you get over, like, the lip of it down the back, it's just kind of dead space. There doesn't seem to be much happening there. And that's one of the things you're like, if you're staring at just that in a photo of the back of the car, it's all you see. But if you actually look at one on the street, and you step back 20 feet, and you're taking in the whole car, it works a lot better. And honestly, it's been a long time since I've gotten in a car, and spent about five minutes driving, and gone, oh, I want this. This car was built for me.
And so the CT4-V was that for me-- well, the Blackwing, in this case. But like, I drove the regular CT4-V last summer, too, and I was impressed even by that car. I mean, it's still-- you know, it is what it is. It's an entry-level luxury vehicle that-- it's not making any bones about that; it's just that that's what you get.
But the chassis is wonderful. It handles beautifully. It's one of those cars where, you know, if they handed you one at a rental counter, you wouldn't have high expectations. But then you'd, get out from behind the wheel and go, oh, wow, that was actually a really pleasant little car. I'm really glad I got to drive it. And you know, take that formula and add a couple hundred horsepower and a manual transmission, and it gets interesting really quick.
So I'm really impressed with what Cadillac's done here, and I agree with you 100% on the styling. Like, looking at pictures of, like, the ATS-V sedan, and then looking at the CT4-V sedan, and just-- it's amazing how much they did considering how little they were really in a position to change. The wheel base is identical. All the hardpoints are exactly where they were with ATS. Some little things, like subframe design, and part of the unibody design stuff, like that has been changed. The body panels are different. But you know, the points where the suspension meets the body and all that are identically placed. So there was only so much they can really move around, and I think they did an amazing job with what they had.
GREG MIGLIORE: I think Cadillac sort of joins the ranks of companies, almost unsuspecting companies-- although, I think you've got to give Cadillac credit. They've been making pretty good looking cars for, like, 30 years now at this point, 25 years. Genesis, Alfa Romeo with the Julia, sort of like sneaky brands that are really doing it right. Maybe some Lexus vehicles, I think-- you know, brands that I think if you just looked at the designs aesthetically in a vacuum, you would say, wow, I think I like that better than the Mercedes C class, or BMW 5 Series.
Not everybody is gonna say that, but if you take the badges off the car, some of these things look really amazing. I was at a car in coffee with I think the seat 5 Black one was there and people were just kind of like, wait a minute, what's that? This car, what is it doing here? And this is, like, in Metro Detroit, we're like, you know, we've been seeing pre-pro things for over a year or whatever. And it just had this kind of wake around it-- like, wait a minute, what's this thing?
You know, so you know, they have a presence, and you know, it can be a great way to create some, like, real mojo for your brand. You know, I mean, I'm in the GV70 right now, that we'll talk about more in the coming weeks here on the podcast-- the Genesis GV70, and the beautiful crossover. It looks like a wagon. Like, it reminds me almost of like-- like it would be a great alternative to some Volvos. You know, like, you want a stylish thing that's not what everybody else has? Well, hey, look at this. So I think Cadillac could be that be that guy right now.
So any final thoughts? You know, you drove 'em both. You took 'em on the track. What else should people know about these things?
BYRON HURD: I mean, I would say, if you're even on the fence about ordering one, I mean, it can't hurt to reach out to a Cadillac dealer. Because at this point, Cadillac's basically saying, well, if you want one, contact your dealer. The Blackwings are not going to show up in inventory. If you're browsing on, like, a Cadillac dealer search website or something like that and you see Blackwings, that car is not going to be available for you to drive. If you want one of these, you have to order one.
And that's, obviously, you have to know that you want it, right? It's not something you can test drive. It's not something you're gonna get a chance to, like, go out and sample. If you have a friend who has an older CTS or ATS-V, maybe try those out. But if you already know you're a fan of the formula, if you're an existing, like, ATS owner or older CTS owner, and you you look at these and you go, OK, on paper, that looks like the car for me, I'm telling you right now, if you're leaning in that direction, the answer is Yes, it is the car for you. Like, it is exactly what it looks like.
And theoretically-- theoretically, because it's a sedan-- in most cases, you can actually go into a dealer, and they will actually sell you one of these at MSRP. It's not the horrendous markup situation that you're getting from a lot of other places. And part of the reason why is because they're sold order-only. And these, the dealers aren't just getting them, sticking them on the lots, and throwing a $20,000 market value markup on them. They can't, because they're not coming in that way.
So if you go to the Cadillac forums, you can find lists of dealerships that are known not to be attempting to charge markup on orders, so you can make sure you're actually paying what you think you're paying when you put your order in. There's a lot of enthusiast support out there for these cars, so if you want to ask about, you know, quirks or anything of the existing models and see what, maybe, might have changed for the new ones, there are plenty people out there who are more than willing to talk about these things. It's a very vocal and engaged enthusiast base.
And normally, that's actually kind of a turnoff for me. [LAUGHS] The car community is sometimes the worst part about owning a particular car. But I'm looking forward to seeing how this group shakes out. It's going to be a new experience for me, especially in the GM camp, because that's-- you know, I've owned some Fords, I've owned some Mopars, but this will be my first GM vehicle. And it's gonna be interesting to see what the community feels like once I actually get a chance to surround myself with them.
GREG MIGLIORE: All right, now, I don't know if you've ever been a member of the Mercedes community, but you spent some time in the G63 recently. Very odd. I don't know if this is how the fleet schedule works, but in multiple Augusts, I've driven a G class. Like, I can remember, it sticks out. Like usually, it, like, runs right into, like, Labor Day weekend. It's pure coincidence, I guess, or maybe it's just that's how it comes. A G class hits the fleet, and they're like, Greg, do you want this?
But anyways, you got it this time, so lucky you. What-- and you went off-roading with it. So what--
BYRON HURD: Yes.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's the first time in a while anybody's actually done that-- in "Autoblog" anyway.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, it's interesting.
GREG MIGLIORE: So that's great.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, and Mercedes was very excited about that idea, too. Because I got word from our fleet manager, [? Zach, ?] that we had this coming in. He was like, this has the AMG trail package on it. Would you like to take it off-road? And of course, you know, someone makes that offer to me, and I say, yes. That's how that works.
So it was delivered, and I realize, it's still an AMG, which means it still has those ridiculous side pipes that hang off underneath the running boards. So I'm thinking, OK, this has the trail package on it. So it has the upgraded skid plates, and it has all-terrain tires-- like legit all-terrain tires-- as well as 20-inch wheels. And it has these ridiculous exhaust pipes hanging off under both sides of the car, right-- just beneath, literally, poking out from underneath the running boards.
Fortunately, they're way at the back, like just in front of the rear wheels on the car. So they're not really at that kind of, like, primo high center point there where your brake-over angle really matters the most right there in the middle of the car. But I'm thinking, what-- if I take this on boulders, if I take this on big rocks, if I'm lucky, I'm only going to bend these things, and if I'm unlucky, I'm going to rip one off.
So I went into this thinking, OK, this is gonna be a limited experience. We're probably not gonna be able to do a whole lot with it, especially because I didn't have anyone to spot with me. I was doing this solo. You know, it's easier if you have someone else who can tell you, hey, stop, you're about to rip that off. [LAUGHS] Turn around, [? you can't ?] do this. But doing it by myself, it was a little more complicated.
So I went out to Holly Oaks ORV Park-- which, for anyone in Southeastern Michigan, and you, if you have a 4x4, you should absolutely go there. It's a great, cheap, fun way to spend an afternoon. Went out there, wandered around a little bit looking at all the different obstacles, and finally realized, wait, this is an AMG. Why am I looking for things to do slowly when I should be looking for things to do quickly? And Holly Oaks has this wonderful little, like, racetrack set up there where it's a one-way section. It's nice and wide. It's designed for-- mostly for dirt bike guys to get out there and do their thing.
They don't allow ATVs on it but they, don't prohibit full-size cars, so I decided to go play on that. And because it was a Thursday afternoon, I was the only one doing it, and that was an absolute blast. Because this is-- you know, it's supposed to be fast. It's deep, dry, soft sand, gravel, and some small rocks and stuff like that, but nothing too treacherous. It's nicely banked, so you can plow through the turns, and you can get the tail out without having to wonder about getting caught in ruts and stuff like that.
Oh, OK, so I get this car now like. At first, it was just here's this big, obnoxious, $176,000 Mercedes SUV that I'm terrified I'm gonna break the first time I go over an obstacle wrong, to literally catching air off these jumps on this race course, because, you know, it's a 577-horsepower twin turbo V8. It's a lot of truck. And it's fast, and loud, and stupid, and I had an absolute blast with it.
So it was one of those stories where I was skeptical at first, but it really won me over, because I just-- you know, I found the thing it's good at and let it show how good it is. [LAUGHS] So I've got some video of that that'll be coming up with the review we're gonna run-- probably by the time this is posted. So look for that.
And something else to keep in mind about that car, too, is it's a V8-powered AMG, a V8-powered Mercedes, and it's not one of the, like, exclusive, like hand-build numbered engines you get in, like, the AMG GT. So that means for the 2022 model year, this car isn't going to exist. It's forbidden fruit, because Mercedes doesn't have enough V8s to build these cars. So this is-- you may not get a 2022 G63 next summer when this time of year rolls around, because Mercedes probably isn't gonna have one to give you.
So it'll probably end up being something else that's equally silly. But it was pretty cool, like finding out, like, just a couple of days before we drove this thing that it was effectively unobtainium for the next year, it was like, oh, well, cool. This is something that wouldn't normally be on my radar, but it's little more special right now because of the circumstances. And it is a lot of fun when you do the things it's designed to do with it, so I was impressed.
GREG MIGLIORE: I really enjoy that element of off-roading, almost like the Baja thing where you're gonna open it up and just have some fun with it. There's room to play. I did the Bronco out there about a month ago, same course, Holly Oaks. I don't think we did that. I'm pretty sure we didn't, or if we did, it was more of, like, an abbreviated thing. We didn't really open it up.
Because they wanted us to, like, show you how you could drive straight up a vertical wall in the Bronco, versus, you know, let's see what the V6 and turbo 4 can do. But that sounds awesome. And I mean, when you look at just, like, the luxury status, the idea of what an expensive off-road SUV can look like, and you roll up in a Benz, like, the G class says it all.
I mean, G63, sure, go with the V8. That's fine. I mean, it's all you need. But Mercedes can, obviously, sell you some other things-- let's put it that way. But I think, yeah, the last time I drove a G Class, I was impressed that they had managed to translate the idea of what a G Class is with some semblance of a modern vehicle.
You know, the older, the ones I drove on Labor Days of yore, were definitely more, like, get going, you know, the steering is really gonna make your work. Sometimes, you might feel like you're gonna tip over. So I like that they-- you know, to me, it was not, hey, we're gonna soften it, or dumb it down, or water it down. It's like, no, we're gonna make this a little bit better for you.
You know, you don't really want some of these things here. You're driving, like, a '78 Land Cruiser. That's not what people want anymore. So yeah, I mean, they're awesome luxury goods, and I think they're also amazing off-roaders.
So it's good that you were able to sort of prove that out. And yeah, man, if you live-- if you're listening to this, you're in Southeast Michigan, check out Holly Oaks. I had a great time there.
It's actually like a county park. I was reading the website, and they were, like, rationalizing. This is something you would only see in Michigan, and maybe some other areas, where it's like, no, no, we need to make this off-road park for our citizens. Like, this is your tax dollars at work. And it's like, I'm thinking to myself, hell, yeah, this is where I want my tax dollars to go. Let's build more things for car enthusiasts to do.
Yes.
But it's a lot of fun-- really is.
It absolutely is. And on top of that, so because it is a park, all the off-roading requirements for it and Silver Lake Dunes way over on Lake Michigan are virtually identical. You need the same whip flag. You need the same ORV stickers. And since the last time I talked about Holly Oaks on this podcast, they have now made it possible for you to buy the sticker permits you need on-site. So you don't have to come prepared with those; you can just show up.
So I mean, you're talking-- like, I think it was about $36, $37 or something like that for the stickers for the year, because that's part of the Recreation Passport type stuff. And then, so you know, you can use those again, and again, and again. And then, there's a $15 fee to show up. And I mean, that's an absolute bargain for the amount of fun. you get to have out there. Even if you only spend an hour there, it's worth it.
Oh, yeah, definitely. It makes me think the next time I get something with four-wheel drive, I should find my way out there. Maybe not the Genesis GV70, but maybe, you know? It's-- you know.
And Nissan made us drive the Pathfinder there, right? So--
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we actually-- I think the last time we were on the podcast together, we were talking about that. And I just drove that on the roads, but they really try to make you think that's a real Pathfinder in the meat-and-potatoes way they have sort of done at times. But yeah, sure, OK, I kind of buy that. Little bit of marketing, but you know, Pathfinder, sure. How about we talk some news?
All right.
All right, so this is sort of like the "return of the--" segment. We've got four different cars that are coming back in some form. We already talked-- we already spoke about the Countach a couple of weeks ago. We know it's coming back. We've now seen it. I'll throw it over to you. Just thumbs up, thumbs down, you know, where do you land on this?
BYRON HURD: It's a thumbs up for me. I mean, knowing that that car is basically just an Aventador with an overhauled powertrain and some new body panels doesn't turn me off at all, because I actually think they did a pretty good job with the nostalgic styling elements that they really needed to nail in order to feel like a Countach. And I mean, I have nothing bad to say about the Aventador. So if those are the underpinnings, and we're getting this fancy new kind of hybrid-ish Lamborghini powertrain with it to boot, that sounds like a winner to me. I'm pretty stoked about that one.
GREG MIGLIORE: Same. I think, I mean, Lamborghini-- and yes, they're owned by Volkswagen Group, but this is not a major, sprawling empire automaker. They've got to work with what they have. So yeah, I mean, naturally, you're going to use some of the bones to make something different.
I would have liked to see the retro styling go slightly farther, but that's probably more like putting, maybe, even too fine a point on it, because this is pretty retro. I think it looks great. They got the shape right. They even tried to do some of the taillights and headlights. Even the wheels sort of hark back to some of the looks of older Countaches. So I think that's kind of a neat, like, you know, way to create, the idea of something and then, you know, sort of make it reality.
So yeah, I'm gonna give thumbs up on this one. You know, limited run. You know, in some ways, the only thing that I-- the one quibble I will have is this doesn't sound like they're going to run this for very long. It's like a fairly limited run. So to me, this isn't gonna be so much the return of the Countach as it's more like a footnote. Like, to me, this is gonna fall closer into the Alfa Romeo 8C from like, whatever, 10, 12 years ago.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Where, does anybody really remember that? No. But it nominally was an Alfa Romeo sold in America in, like, 2008, something like that. But yeah, hey, it exists. I can't wait to see it on the lawn at Pebble at some point. Probably not at a Cars and Coffee, but you never know around here. I saw a Diablo a couple of weeks ago, and I did see a Countach, so--
BYRON HURD: There's at least one up in your neck of the woods. I was out there with a-- god, what was I driving a few weeks back? I don't remember what it was. Oh, it was when I had the McLaren 720S. So back at, like, the end of July, I was following a white Countach around your neck of the woods.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's awesome. That is-- I feel like I've seen that car, actually. That, I drove one in Miami about five years ago. A really amazing experience. So glad I could say I drove it. You know, it was a lot of work to drive, because you're like-- essentially, picture laying 3/4 of the way on a futon while trying to steer like a tractor, and that's what it's like to drive this, like, iconic sports car.
BYRON HURD: I can absolutely believe that.
GREG MIGLIORE: It's not easy, and-- yeah, but it's amazing, and they're beautiful cars. That whole wedge-shaped design from that time, from those places-- I mean, I've been looking at DeLaureans. I've been looking at some of the Giugiaro and Bertoni designs from that time period, Lancias. It's just like all of a sudden, that time period, the rad period, is really starting to resonate with me in a way that it didn't previously-- maybe because I sort of lived through a good chunk of it.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: And yeah, it was cool. Yeah, I had some Transformers and Hot Wheels that looked like that. But now that you're sort of, they go away, they weren't cool-- or maybe they always were cool; I don't know-- but now they're, like, back, and they're like these sort of like-- I don't know, living ghosts, in some ways, that, I think, obviously, hit a certain generation in a way that I think is gonna live on for a while. So yeah, obviously, a good idea to bring this name back.
All right let's move on to the [? Z-car. ?] You wrote a piece saying, this is basically everything that we deserve and nothing more. So I think it's probably best to throw this over to you on this one, too. But I mean, just real quick, another one that looks like they did what they needed to. Beautiful car, another throwback to the [? rad ?] [? wood ?] era of design aesthetics. But yeah, I'm gonna give this one a thumbs up right out of the gate and then kick it over to you.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, honestly, I've been kind of a low-key cheerleader for the 370z for years, where it got kind of a rough-- it had kind of a rough start. It had some incidents with brake issues and stuff like that early on that kind of spooked a lot of enthusiasts, I think, and put people off the car a bit. Otherwise, like, over the past-- because it's been available for 10 years-- 12, technically, I guess-- and it has only become a better deal with time, because Nissan never really bumped the price up.
Like you got the Nismo model, which made it a little more expensive, if you were going for that kind of like halo. But the basic vehicle never really got that much more expensive. It still started at just under $30,000, even going into the final model yeah. And for a 330-horsepower rear-wheel-drive coupe, that was a bargain, frankly, like right up to the end.
So you know, at the beginning, it wasn't, because you could still get-- back then, you could buy a Mustang GT for, like, 27 grand or something. So prices have gone up a lot over the past decade when it comes to enthusiast cars. I mean, we've gone from, you know, Mustangs with V8s being $25,000 after incentives to you're lucky if they're only 40, and over the course of that time, the Z price remained virtually stagnant. And so it just became a better, better, better deal. The downside was it became a worse, and worse, and worse car, because Nissan never really did a whole lot to improve it.
So it was-- the stagnation in its price was matched with stagnation in its development, because we never got a new infotainment system. We never got, really, any serious interior upgrades at all. The styling got some very light massaging here and there, but nothing ever really changed with it. So either you liked the formula and you were all in on it from the beginning, or you didn't and you weren't.
So in this way, I think, like, the price has gone up 10 grand, give or take. They're saying to expect the Sport to start at about 40,000 versus 30,000 for the outgoing car. That's a lot. When you're talking about a 30%-plus increase in the base price, that's significant. And you're not getting 30% more car, but you are at least getting an updated, modern interior. You are getting an engine that is more powerful off the bat, and also theoretically could produce a lot more power with a little additional aftermarket investment, if that's your thing.
I mean, it's a Z-Car. I have the feeling that people are going to want to tune them. So if that's a consideration, you're going from a naturally-aspirated engine that was kind of known for needing some pretty good upgrades before you started boosting it, to a pre-boosted engine that's probably good for-- I mean, we've seen this engine do some pretty impressive things in other applications, so we know there's headroom there.
So I'm optimistic about it. I'm with you-- I love the styling. I think they did a knockout job with it. I mean, this is-- it's a very well-known platform at this point. Like, we know what we're getting. And this is hopefully enough to keep it alive long enough that the nameplate stays relevant, because I have a feeling that if we ever see another Z, it's probably gonna have to be a pure electric, which means this has to last long enough to cross that bridge, right?
Like, we get it. We're not gonna get a plug-in Z. We're not gonna get anything for the Intermediate period. It's just gonna be gasoline to electric, most likely.
So I think what we need to do is kind of like keep an eye on the GTR and see what Nissan does at the very high end of performance. And then, we'll see. Whatever they do with that, they'll probably trickle down to the next Z.
So that's kind of where we want to put our eyes at this point. But for now, we can at least get to look at this beautiful new Z, which I'm not going to complain about. I love it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, to me, this is a little bit like-- it's like a bonus car, you know? Like it is, the chassis does carry over, and it's not as, maybe, as all-new and invigorated as people want. Also, who cares, you know? It means you get Z-car for, maybe, five more years until we maybe see an all-electric Z. And this is a sports car.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Whereas, for, I think, at least a couple of years, there was a thought, they were gonna, like, end this and then come back with something that was a crossover, an electric crossover. So I think, you know, you actually get to enjoy your cake for a couple more years if you're a fan of this car. And looks good to me; I'm intrigued.
I always-- like you, I always kind of did really like the 350 and 370 Z-cars. You know, they were fun to drive. When I started out at "Autoweek" we put, I think, the 370Z on the cover, and the car itself was embargoed. It was sitting in the basement of our parking garage, and it was going to be revealed the next day at the LA Auto Show. And they were like, so, yeah, you can drive it. I'm like, can I? And they're like, yeah, no it's just don't write anything about it, you know, web guy, 20-something web guy. Don't write anything about it, because it's gonna be on the cover next week, and nobody else has really seen it. And all right, this is cool. This is a cool job.
So yeah, I'm with you. I think it definitely resonates. Let's shift over to the Acura Integra. I'm gonna say TBD on this one. All we see is a teaser.
The name goes way back. They haven't used it in a little while, but it was one of two cars they launched back in, like, '86 when they came here. So to me, it makes sense to kind of bring this piece of your past forward, play it forward, and try to make it, like, part of who you are now. Because I think a lot of true blue Acura people, like, want to think that they could drive an Integra.
So you know, for me, it's like a TBD. We'll see. Like, we don't know very much about this, so in some ways it's not really fair to, like, throw judgment at it either way. But I'm just gonna kind of take a wait-and-see here, punt the ball, and see what happens next.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I feel the same way. And it's one of those where, like, the name gives me hope, and virtually everybody on staff wants this to do well. Like, they want-- they love the idea of Integra coming back, and they want whatever the end product is to be fantastic, because they want it to do justice to the Integra nameplate. And I'm 100% here for that.
I hope-- as much as I want it to just be the Integra again, because I would love to drive one of those again, I would also like to Acura do something with this car. I would like to see electrification play a part. I would like to see a hint at what the future of Acura looks like from this vehicle. Because otherwise, I'm worried that it'll end up being like Z or like Countach, where it will just be like a little dash of fan service before they get to what they're really doing next-- which is ironic, considering I just spent money on that exact formula.
But like the idea, I don't want all of these things to just fade out. I would love to see-- we've seen sport compacts with hybridization from Honda before. The CR-Z was weird at its time, but now, I think, would be a lot more widely accepted. And they could also do a lot more with it now.
So something like that, where they maybe throw in a little, like, an electric-based all-wheel drive or something like that, just to kind of like show us which way they're going with their performance vehicles. Kind of like a baby NSX with a tiny engine, and it drives the front wheels most of the time instead of the rear ones. You know, like something like that. Like give us a taste of all this trickle-down all-wheel drive and hybrid technology that you've been working on in NSX, and give it something, give it a package that's more accessible, and stick a name on it that people recognize. I feel like that's a winning formula.
But I mean, it's probably gonna be a sedan or a coupe. And I'm worried, that's gonna doom it, ultimately. So mixed feelings. I'm with you-- wait and see. High hopes, but low expectations-- we'll say it that way.
GREG MIGLIORE: To be fair, the sedan and coupe, like the death of those two segments, some companies are doing OK with them. So--
BYRON HURD: Oh, sure.
GREG MIGLIORE: Part of me thinks that, you know, the silhouette of this car could be interesting. Like, if it does look like, say, the Genesis GV70 that's in my driveway, and looks almost like a sporty wagon the way it's proportioned and laid out, maybe you could get away with something like that, if it's performant enough and if it's good-looking enough. The problem is then, you roll up a name, and you're putting the weight of history on it. And people are like, well, this isn't what I remember.
Or, you go like the Chevy Blazer route, which is a great example of something that's selling pretty well, looks pretty good, it's not what people think of as "the Blazer." But if you're Chevy, and you're like, we need a good name for our midsize-ish crossover, what's out there? Chevy Blazer, let's go with that. You say, whatever. Enthusiasts, people who remember boxy SUVs from the '70s, '80s, '90s, see ya. This is gonna sell, and you count your money. And that makes sense to me too. So--
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: We mentioned the NSX. This is a bit of a surprise, actually. An Acura executive kind of mentioned, hey, we are gonna do a third-gen-- which, a little, frankly, very surprised by that.
BYRON HURD: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: So OK, great. He said this is an interview to "The Drive" and "Motor Trend." Should have talk to "Autoblog," right? But I don't know. I think this makes sense.
Actually, you know what? I don't think this makes sense, thinking out loud.
BYRON HURD: [LAUGHS]
GREG MIGLIORE: I think they could probably let this-- put this on the back burner for a little bit, then come back. That being said, I'm-- great, awesome, thank you. This makes a lot of sense for an enthusiast community. And from Acura's brand perspective, they do try to cultivate, like, themselves as an enthusiast brand. They're involved in racing.
You know, the NSX, hands down, one of the most iconic cars of the '90s and early 2000s. They brought it back. They did a credible job. Maybe not an incredible job, but they did do a very credible job with it. It won a number of-- like, you know, received favorable reviews, let's put it that way. So I think it's a good move that they're gonna do it. As I talk in circles, I'm gonna contradict myself and say, hell yeah, let's get the NSX again.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, I'm with you there. Like, I think it's a good opportunity for them to really show us what they want to do with their future cars and what they think the future of performance is for their brand-- which is what they did with the current NSX. And it's honestly kind of a shame that it didn't sell better than it did. And I mean, I get, you know, the price was high for what you were getting but I mean, we're looking at this as-- this is actually, maybe, now kind of the blueprint for what will be the next Chevy Corvette Grand Sport from what we were nearing, where all-wheel drive, electrified, probably-- in the case of the Corvette, probably just a hybrid, just like the NSX is just a hybrid. But it opens the door for plug-ins and full-blown electric vehicles down the road, and I think that's kind of the bridge that Acura was trying to cross with it, where they're saying, OK, well, we can do this at the high end, and we'll sell it for a lot of money. We won't sell a lot of them, but at least it'll show people what we're capable of doing and what we want to do going forward.
And the updated version of it with the revised suspension and everything, that I think was maybe the-- I want to say it was the 2018 or '19 model year. I apologize, I probably have that wrong.
GREG MIGLIORE: It think it was '19.
BYRON HURD: Yeah, somewhere in there. I mean, after those revisions, oh, the way it drove was wonderful. I got a chance to drive that around their proving ground, Stanton, Ohio, on their advanced handling course, and that thing flies, and it feels great doing it. So it was a very good package that was under-appreciated, and I think we're seeing that in the resale value of them, too. I mean, they sold so few of them that any demand is enough to keep that market afloat, but they're holding their value really well-- which sucks for people like me who would love to pick one up cheap. But at the same time, it's nice to see that some people do actually appreciate it.
GREG MIGLIORE: I agree with you. That sort of refresh, if you will, I drove it last year, right at like, sort of, the start of the pandemic, and it was like, literally, just the best thing I could do, because it's like there was nothing else to do. You know, we were in actual lockdowns. You couldn't go anywhere. You were being told to, like, have your license out for in case you got stopped by the police and all that stuff.
BYRON HURD: Right.
GREG MIGLIORE: And so I remember driving around in the NSX thinking, this is great. Don't know what's going on out there, but I'm in this amazing sports car-- sweet. New Sports Car, Experimental? I think that actually-- the very idea of what this thing was can manifest itself in new generations and maybe point the way for some new technology for Acura. And that's where I think change could be good for a storied brand.
So let's leave it there. Send your questions, your Spend My Moneys. We didn't have one this week. We'd love to get a couple more of those in, fall Spend My Moneys.
Podcast at Autoblog.com. If you like the podcast, please give us a five-star rating on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Byron, have a great weekend. We'll see you next week when college football kicks off.
[THEME MUSIC]
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd, who joins us fresh from the floor at the 2024 New York Auto Show. They start with an overview of the show and this year's big debuts, then pivot to other news for talk …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor Jeremy Korzeniewski. In the news, BMW revealed the Neue Klasse X EV, Jeep Wrangler drops the V8, Ford Mustang gets a 810-horsepower supercharger kit and Shell leans into EV charging. We look back on the life …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd. They start off discussing a couple of vehicles they've both driven — the 2024 Ford Maverick Tremor and the 2024 Volvo C40 Recharge 2WD. From there, they pivot to Byron's first drive of the …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by News Editor Joel Stocksdale. They lead off with the 2024 Dodge Charger reveal, followed by various EV startup news including the reported death of the Apple Car; rumors of a tie-up between Fisker and Nissan; and when we'll finally …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor James Riswick and News Editor Joel Stocksdale. Joel shares his experience checking out the Tesla Cybertruck in Chicago. James leads a discussion concerning GM's track record with the Ultium EV roll-out and the company's history with …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd. They start out talking about Scout's new facility in South Carolina and what Volkswagen Group wants to do with its new truck and SUV brand. From there, they briefly revisit the General Motors F1 …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor, Electric, John Beltz Snyder. This week, they've been driving the Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, Kia Seltos and Autoblog's long-term WRX (which has a CD player). They discuss the Chrysler Halcyon concept and what it means for a possible …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor James Riswick. We kick off the week by reviewing cars we've been driving, including the new Lexus GX, Land Rover Defender 130 Outbound, Jaguar F-Pace, Hyundai Kona and our long-term Subaru WRX. Next, we break down …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor, Electric, John Beltz Snyder. In the news, F1 snubs Michael Andretti, Jeep shows off the electric Wagoneer S, Mazda reveals the updated 2024 Miata, Mary Barra talks about future plug-in hybrids, and Rivian is set to …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by News Editor Joel Stocksdale, and they cover a wide range of topics. They discuss refreshed models from GM and VW including the new Blackwing Cadillacs, the Chevy Equinox, and the GTI. They also talk about the upcoming Jeep …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Road Test Editor Zac Palmer. They kick things off with a roundup of the week's news, and of course the first photos of a pre-production electric Dodge Charger Daytona are the first topic. After that, the pair chat …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor, Electric, John Beltz Snyder. This week, we discuss the North American Car, Truck and Utility of the year winners: The Toyota Prius, Kia EV6 and Ford Super Duty (and Greg explains his votes). In other news, …
In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Associate Editor Byron Hurd. They start by discussing the many cars being continued in 2024 and beyond, including the Chrysler 300C. They also note that the Honda e is toast as well. They discuss the hugs Tesla Autopilot …
