If Toyota has its way then hybrid nay-sayers will soon no longer be able to cite the technology's lack of value as a major fault. The world leader in hybrid technology (based on the encouraging sales if its Prius hybrid) has announced plans to employ a smaller and less expensive hybrid system around 2008. The new system will allow Toyota to double its hybrid production to 600,000 units by that time, which totally spanks Ford's goal of producing 250,000 hybrids by 2010. The new system would allow Toyota to offer a hybrid drivetrain across most of, if not its entire, line-up. This would allow the company to recoup some R&D costs and lower the per-unit cost of the system, increasing its value in economic terms in addition to the already well established environmental ones.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Chris R @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
If the Camry uses a mild HSD system, and keep it under 20k it could 500,000 easily.
Chris R @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
I mean total Camry sales. I wonder if the next Tundra will come with hybrid version at introduction.
Joseph Willemssen @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"the technology’s lack of value"
Do you think if you tell a lie frequently enough it will somehow become true?
Benson Leung @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Hmm. I read this, but nowhere in the article did it imply that Toyota was *weakening* it's hybrid system.
The article doesn't say that Toyota is moving away from the full hybrids it's been pioneering, and replacing them with mild hybrids.
The way I read it, they're trying to make the system smaller, but still emphasising the benefit of the full hybrid system.
The Lexus RX400h and the Highlander Hybrid have smaller motors and a less bulky battery than the current Prius, but does not sacrifice the power of either the motors or battery.
Joseph Willemssen @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"The new hybrid drive will be more powerful than the current version, featuring lighter batteries but delivering higher performance, according to the report.
The automaker will also begin to make key components for gasoline-electric hybrid systems in the United States, the first time this manufacturing has been done outside Japan, according to the newspaper report."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/new_smaller_hyb.html
I'm guessing these are the first dividends in picking up the Subie share from GM.
max @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Wow-it's a good thing that Toyota is dropping the cost of the hybrid-because it's obvious they can't move them now!
olderty @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Joe W. once again takes home with the trophy for arrogance and pompousness.
STFU and start your own blog.
Joseph Willemssen @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"Wow-it's a good thing that Toyota is dropping the cost of the hybrid-because it's obvious they can't move them now!"
Try again.
http://bioage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hybrid_sales_oct05_2.PNG
geotpf @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
The technology is fine-it certainly does not have a "lack of value". It doubles the mileage (assuming you build a car around the technology as opposed to just dropping it in an existing car, then it's probably closer to a 50% boost-again, assuming you shrink the gasoline engine in the process (which leaves out the Accord hybrid and Toyota's SUV hybirds, which keep the gasoline engine the same size, so you get a bigger engine for slightly better mileage)) in real world situations (in the real world, a Camry will probably get about 25 MPG, while a Prius (same basic size) will get about 50 MPG), and reduces emissions in the process, for an added cost of less than two grand (or about 10% of the vehicles cost). (In case you want to look at prices, I would say a Camry LE ($19,545) is the equilvent of a base Prius ($21,275)).
In any case, it doesn't matter if you (and a lot of other people) think the technology is not worth it-they sell well, don't they?
(Did I use enough parethesises?)
Joseph Willemssen @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
I wonder if certain people realize they have an eliminationist attitude to things, and that it reflects a child-like frustration with the world that finds its "solution" in the desire to get rid of something entirely instead of learning to live with it.
Probably not.
djSyndrome @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"Wow-it's a good thing that Toyota is dropping the cost of the hybrid-because it's obvious they can't move them now!"
Um, that would be Ford, not Toyota.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10081251/
mikes @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"Wow-it's a good thing that Toyota is dropping the cost of the hybrid-because it's obvious they can't move them now!"
"Try again.
http://bioage.typepad.com/photos/uncat
egorized/hybrid_sales_…"
LOL, I think it's called sarcasm...
Poe @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Nobody said that hybrids offer no value. It's just that when you weigh that value against the added cost that questions arise (did anyone bother to click the hyperlink attached to the "lack of value" phrase in the article?).
I have to take issue with geotpf's arguments in favor of the Prius. A Prius is really more comparable in size to the significantly less expensive Corolla than a Camry - and even if you DO compare it to the Camry, the 4-cyl. automatic is rated at 24/34 MPG. I don't think 25 MPG is a very realistic average fuel mileage number for it (I'd guess it's more like 30). Even if it were 25, the Prius does NOT get 50 MPG in "real world" driving (which has been beaten to death on here) - so your claim of double the fuel mileage is totally groundless. ...and that's vs. the Camry. Compared to the Corolla, it's even harder to make a case for the Prius. It takes many years for the fuel cost savings of the Prius to cover its extra up-front cost. If Toyota can bring the hybrid cost down though, it certainly will make them a more attractive option. Personally I hold more hope for better small diesels here (as soon as we start getting low-sulfur fuel next year) than I do for hybrids.
Keith @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
I would like Toyota to make a simple bare bones hybrid based on the Yaris. This would be for those people who hate cars and just need A to B transportation.
Eventually, a new category of vehicle should be introduced by governments called a "Limited Speed Vehicle". These vehicles would have dedicated electric power and be primarily restricted to urban centres and may eventually be the only vehicles allowed to be driven within the cities.
Benson Leung @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Poe...
On my current tank of gas, with 390 miles on the tank already, my Prius shows 52.9 MPG... with real world driving...
So clearly somehow my Prius does not exist because it has broken the 50 MPG barrier? or somehow I have altered the fabric of space and time to achieve this fantastic feat of > 50 MPG?
Please... it depends on how you drive the car, among a thousand other variables...If you pay no attention to your mileage and drive like a maniac, you'll get lackluster mileage.
But don't say that 50 MPG is impossible simply because car pundits told you so.
Dude... do you own a Prius? Have you ever even been inside of a Prius? It's vastly roomier than a Corolla, and has much more cargo space, afforded by the hatchback design... If you're asking about rear passenger legroom, cargo space, it's on par with the Camry...
Comparing it to a 4 cylinder Camry is fairer than comparing it to a Corolla... and the current Prius is classified as a mid size car... You're confused because the first Prius was a compact.
Benson Leung @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Moreover, Poe, the whole issue of "break even time" that you bring up is a very common straw man that people like you who want to "debunk" hybrids come up with just so you can destroy it.
No one markets the Prius or any other car strictly on "break even" time... it's something that you created to dismiss the technology.
And your comments about diesel show you don't really understand the significance of hybrid technology.
Hybrid technology prioritizes the following, in the decreasing order:
1. improved emissions
2. improved fuel consumption(consequently less oil dependence)
3. economy.
If you were a consumer interested in #1 or #2, as most Prius owners are, and as more and more people are becoming, then the Prius makes sense...
and neither the Corolla, the Camry, nor any other car on the market (including your precious diesels) do as much as the Prius to address #1 and #2.
Even #3 depends on the individual driver's habits. If a driver puts 24000 or more miles on a car a year and intends to keep his car for a decade or more, then the Prius makes so much more sense than a Corolla, or a Camry...
if someone is in the habit of replacing their vehicle every 3 years, then maybe they should save their money (but that's not factoring in the high resale value of the Prius in general!).
max @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Thanks Mikes. I didn't think ANYONE would think I was serious, but it's JW who thinks that if you own an SUV you have a small penis.
I'm surprised number six didn't ridicule me and after all I support the troops-so I must be "sheep".
geotpf @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Poe-Here's a famous owner of a Prius:
http://john1701a.com/
His currently lifetime MPG is 49.3-and he lives in cold Minnesota, which hurts the mileage of a hybrid (and all other cars, for that matter).
50 MPG is quite doable.
I don't own a Camry (or a Prius, for that matter), so I don't know it's real world numbers. Maybe they are closer to 30 than 25-but the EPA numbers are inflated for *ALL* vehicles, so 25 is probably close to real world mileage. 50 is below 60/51 (Prius's EPA numbers) as well. In any case, 66% better fuel economy is still good.
As for a Prius being closer to a Corolla than a Camry-that would be true with the pre-2004 model, but not with the current one:
Interior Prius Camry Corolla
Front Headroom 39.1 in. 39.2 in. 39.3 in.
Rear Headroom 37.1 in. 38.4 in. 37.1 in.
Front Shoulder Room 55.3 in. 57.5 in. 53.1 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 53 in. 56.7 in. 53.5 in.
Front Hip Room 51 in. 54.4 in. 51.9 in.
Rear Hip Room 51.6 in. 54.1 in. 46.2 in.
Front Leg Room 41.9 in. 41.6 in. 41.3 in.
Rear Leg Room 38.6 in. 37.8 in. 35.4 in.
Maximum Luggage Capacity 16.1 cu.ft. 16.7 cu.ft. 13.6 cu.ft.
Maximum Seating 5 5 5
M1EK @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
"A Prius is really more comparable in size to the significantly less expensive Corolla than a Camry"
Bull. It's like a Camry with a bit less room in the front, and a bit narrower. It's a HELL of a lot bigger than the Corolla in EVERY respect.
poulsbo @ Dec 18th 2005 11:07PM
Poe:
wrong!!!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deadhorse/search/tags:prius/
and i think enough other folks on here have proved you wrong with the prius being LARGER than a corolla debate. even if it were close to the same size... the prius is topped out, so it's not like you're comparing it to a corolla CE... more like a corolla LE, which doesn't even offer a DVD/bluetooth package.