• Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
  • Image Credit: Toyota
Toyota Bob CarterToyota's Bob Carter has been talking about green cars for years, but it's only been recently that his comments have really caught widespread attention thanks to his disparaging remarks about electric vehicle supporters like Elon Musk and Carlos Ghosn and optimism about hydrogen. Speaking at the opening of the Chicago Auto Show this morning, Carter said that Toyota has claimed the "pole position on CAFE," thanks to its deep hybrid bench. The company's green car cred will continue to grow because of its upcoming hydrogen fuel cell car, due out next year. Carter is relentlessly optimistic: "I truly believe fuel cells will fundamentally change how we feel about transportation," he said.

The reason, Carter said, is that a hydrogen infrastructure will be easier to install than people think. He referenced a study conducted by the University of California (which we've heard about before) that found that California would only need 68 hydrogen stations to refuel the roughly 10,000 H2 vehicles that Toyota hopes to sell in by 2016 or so. That's a lot more than the nine that exist today, but the state has already approved funding for 20 new stations by 2015 and then up to 100 by 2024. Then he said this: "If every vehicle in California ran on hydrogen, we could meet refueling logistics with only 15 percent of the nearly 10,000 gasoline stations currently operating in the state."

"We could meet refueling logistics with only 15 percent of gasoline stations currently operating in CA" - Bob Carter

This made us wonder: if the refueling time and range are roughly equivalent between hydrogen and gasoline – Toyota's hydrogen car is supposed to be able to go 300 miles on a five-minute fill-up - then why has the market decided that there should be 10,000 gas stations in California and why would 1,500 be sufficient for hydrogen? "If the locations are optimized," he said, "we don't need 10,000 stations." For example, at major intersections, instead of three gas stations, you'd really just need a single hydrogen one. "There are a lot of questions about the infrastructure, but it's coming. ... It's a hurdle that we've got to climb but it's not as steep as some may imagine."

Toyota's Mike Michaels, the national manager, media and public affairs at Toyota Motor Sales, then stepped in to point out that there are gas stations closing and admitted that there might be too many gas stations in California. Whatever the real number turns out to be for hydrogen infrastructure in the Golden State, we can all agree there is quite a gap between 1,500 and 10,000.
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Midwest Automotive Media Association - Bob Carter
February 06, 2014
As prepared for

Midwest Automotive Media Association
Thursday, February 6, 2014
Chicago, IL
Bob Carter, Senior Vice President, Automotive Operations, Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
_________________

Thank you, Kirk... and good morning everyone.

It's great to be back here.

I was based in Chicago from 1983 to 1990, working as a Regional Marketing Manager, and every year I worked the Auto Show from open to close.

The year 1985 really stands out for me... so many things happened that year:

Michael Jordan won the NBA's Rookie of the Year award...
The Bears finished their amazing season 18-and-1... with a victory in the Super Bowl...
And they beat the Packers twice that year.

Those are all great memories... but what I remember vividly is the winter of 1985 and how brutal it was. In late January, the mercury dropped to a record low of minus 27 degrees.

Move-in day at the Auto Show was also below zero... and it snowed more than a foot.

To make matters worse... Toyota was the last brand to move in. Toyota didn't have much... "horsepower" back then to influence those decisions.

And we didn't get to unload our vehicles indoors. No... we dropped off down by 31st Street... and we drove them across Lake Shore Drive to the East Building. In a foot of snow.

By the time we got to the East Building... snow and ice were packed tight around our cars' suspensions. So I had to lay under the trucks all day and chip blocks of snow and ice off the suspensions with a screw driver.

And then, during the entire charity preview event, I kept chipping ice and mopping the water off the carpet. I was soaking wet, cold and filthy.

If I'd only been born with the ability to dunk a basketball!

Well... over the years... besides the cold weather, and occasional snow and ice, the Show has not only been memorable to me, it's been especially important to Toyota.

This is where we unveiled our first generation Tundra Crew Cab... our NASCAR Tundra race truck... and last year... our all-new... redesigned 2014 Tundra. And this year?... well, you'll have to wait to find out.

Four years ago... I personally unveiled our beautifully updated Avalon sedan... an "All-American" vehicle... designed, engineered and built right here in the U.S. And, let me tell you ...it's doing great today.

In fact, Toyota's first appearance at the Chicago Auto Show was in 1959. We wedged three vehicles into a 700 square foot display area... including the Toyopet Custom Crown four-door sedan you see here.

So together...this show... our industry... and Toyota's display space... have come a long way in 100 years.

Today... every automaker is contributing new ideas and technologies to meet the needs and desires of our customers... and in the process...ensuring the auto industry has a very bright future.

So this morning... I'd like to share several reasons why we think 2014 will be another great year for automakers...and why tomorrow will be EVEN better.

Let's start with our economic and industry forecast.

The industry has enjoyed four consecutive year-over-year sales increases... driven by pent-up demand for new vehicles as the economy recovered from the recession.

This year... the pace of growth will slow somewhat... but be driven more by broad economic strength rather than pent-up demand.

That's good... because pent-up demand can carry you just so far.

And by many measures... the economy is showing signs of a rebound.

For example... economists predict GDP will grow 2.8% this year... and 3% by 2015.

The unemployment rate is dropping... and could hit about 6.5% as our economy gets rolling again.

And, with a big boost in GDP... and more Americans back to work...household wealth should continue rising.

In fact...U.S. household net worth climbed 2.6% in the 3rd quarter of 2013... the highest increase on record... due mostly to rising stock prices and a recovery in home values.

At the same time... Congress is acting to provide some needed market assurance.

The recent budget agreement could provide added stability for the next two years... and set the stage for continued economic growth.

So... what does all this good economic news mean for the car business?

Currently... analysts predict 2014 industry sales will range between 16.2-Million and 16.4-Million vehicles.

At Toyota... we're planning for 16-Million units or higher... healthy growth but slower than the past few years.

And there are several reasons why the good times should continue this year.

First, we expect over 400-Thousand more customers than last year will lease of buy a new vehicle.

This continues a trend from 2013 when leases accounted for more than 20% of new-vehicle registrations... the highest annual percentage in 10 years.

Second...historically low auto loan rates.

Thirty years ago... we saw loan rates in the mid-to-high teens... but they've steadily receded to the 3-to-4% rates we see today.

Of course... auto loan rates may tick up again as the Fed eases the stimulus... but we believe they'll stay relatively low and affordable for most Americans.

And...third...strong product momentum from nearly every automaker. Just walk the show and you'll see amazing new vehicles in nearly every segment that will act as a magnet to attract consumers to dealerships.

So, our industry should see a fifth consecutive year of growth...a positive sales run automakers haven't seen since the 1930s.

And Toyota is positioned to grow as well.

This year... we'll introduce 8 new or updated products to go along with full-year sales of some of our core models... including:

Corolla...
RAV4...
Tundra
and Lexus IS

As a result... we estimate our 2014 sales will increase by about 100-Thousand to about 2.3-Million vehicles.

And leading our charge of new vehicles is the exciting 2015 Lexus RC F sports coupe on display here.

It's a real piece of eye candy... inside and out.

It offers true racecar performance... with a high revving... 450+ horsepower...5-Liter, V8 engine under the skin.

Many of the RC-F's features are inspired by our super car... the LFA... and you can also see a special Nurburgring racing edition LFA in the Lexus area of the show.

My son keeps asking me when he can lease an RC-F... and I keep telling him... "not in my lifetime".

We also shocked some people when we recently unveiled the Toyota FT-1 concept sports car.

Our customers have been asking for a product that would follow in the footsteps of our heritage sports cars like the 2000 GT... Celica... Supra... and... most recently... the Scion FR-S.

Well... the FT-1 certainly fits the bill.

And a lot of people are taking notice...and some are asking me when they can get their hands on one.

And I'm talking about some big names.

Just minutes after the reveal... I received a text from NASCAR driver Kyle Busch... who drives the Number 18 Toyota Camry for Joe Gibbs Racing.

The text said, "Bob! When can I come out and test drive the FT-1!"

So I called him... and said, "Kyle, do you think I've lost my mind? The last time I let you drive one of our new sports cars was the Lexus LFA. A few days later... it was all over the nightly news that you got pulled over on a back road in North Carolina... and they clocked you at over 120 in a 35!"

So Kyle paused for a second... then said, "Yeah, but look at all the publicity you got!"

So... we have a lot of great products that will meet consumers' current needs and desires, but we aren't stopping there...and neither is our industry.

Automakers are developing vehicles to meet the future transportation needs of consumers and society... including cars equipped with advanced fuel economy and environmental technologies.

Every brand is making big gains in fuel economy. In fact, the average adjusted fuel economy of all cars sold hit a new high last year, improving by 1 mile per gallon over 2012... to 24.8 mpg.

I'm particularly proud of the fact that Toyota continues to be the industry's most fuel-efficient full-line automaker according to the most recent NHTSA Final CAFE report.

Taken as a group...automakers have expanded their high-mileage lineups... from a total of 69 vehicles in 2006... to more than 400 in 2013... that's nearly a 500-Percent increase in just 7 years!

That's important... because automakers are gearing up to meet the upcoming CAFE standards.

From 2015 to 2025...CAFE regulations will require automakers to significantly reduce emissions... and increase fuel economy across their fleets.

That won't be easy, but at Toyota... with our fuel-efficient products and lead in hybrid vehicles... we think we are in the pole position on CAFE.

In addition to great fuel economy, consumers tell us they want cars that are friendlier to the environment.

And our industry is responding.

Today, nearly every manufacturer offers some sort of alternative fuel vehicle.

At Toyota and Lexus, we offer 12 hybrids in the U.S., and we've sold more than 2.2-Million hybrids here.

Globally... that number goes up to 6-Million... resulting in an estimated 41-Million-ton reduction in CO2 emissions... the equivalent of taking about 4.8-Million vehicles off the road.

So, we ARE doing our part for the environment... and there is more to come in the future.

For instance, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are focusing on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

When our fuel cell sedan comes to market next year... and is joined by those from other automakers... I truly believe it will fundamentally change how we think about transportation.

Here's why...

Our model will travel over 300 miles on a tank of hydrogen... takes about five minutes to fill... and has ZERO emissions. It emits only harmless water vapor.

And there is good news on building hydrogen re-fueling stations.

Automakers, energy companies and government agencies are coming forward to build the infrastructure required to support consumer acceptance and vehicle sales.

For instance... in California... 9 hydrogen stations are currently in operation. And... the state has approved funding to support construction of about 20 new stations by 2015... 40 by 2016... and as many as 100 by 2024.

Those numbers might sound small, but our research shows the issue of infrastructure is not so much about how many... but rather... location... location... location.

Toyota... and the University of California... collaborated on a model that maps-out a specific distribution of fueling stations.

And we found that... in California... where we will initially market our sedan... it will take only about 68 stations to regularly re-fuel about 10-Thousand hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

Another way to look at it... if every vehicle in California ran on hydrogen, we could meet refueling logistics with only 15 percent of the nearly 10-Thousand gasoline stations currently operating in the state.

So, we'll continue to work with our fellow stakeholders... other automakers and government agencies to advance the development of hydrogen stations.

But there's more to the industry than meeting our customers' demands for stylish, fun-to-drive, fuel-efficient and environmentally-friendly vehicles.

One of the most exciting things about the auto business is the work we do to enrich the lives of people and communities across this nation.

For example, the auto industry is a major engine that drives the U.S. economy and supports American families....think about it...

8-Million Americans and their families rely on the auto industry for their livelihoods.
In Illinois, the industry employs 460-Thousand people... more than double the population of Aurora, the state's second largest city.

In addition, the auto industry pumps more than 735-Billion Dollars into the U.S. economy annually through employment...tax revenue...and manufacturing operations.

At Toyota, we're proud that 70% of the vehicles we sell in the U.S. are assembled here in our 14 North American plants...providing 37-Thousand jobs to support local communities.

In the past two years alone... we've invested 2-Billion Dollars in North American plant expansions... creating more than 4-Thousand new jobs in North America.

Our North American plants are not only building cars for U.S. consumers, they're building cars for export overseas.

In fact, I'm excited to announce today that...in 2013....Toyota exported a record 130-Thousand U.S.-built vehicles... a 5% increase from 2012.

We think the sound of "Toyota Imported from North America" has a nice ring to it... so we'll continue expanding our exports this year.

So...as an industry...we're doing a great job and seeing some good success.

But today's consumers want more than great products... they also want to do business with companies that give back to their communities.

Once again... automakers are stepping up in this area.

Just last month, the General Motors Foundation announced a 1-Million Dollar grant to the Smithsonian's National Museum of African-American History and Culture.

This grant will help the Smithsonian tell the story of African-Americans' diverse contributions to our country... and preserve this rich history for future generations.

And since 1991, Toyota has contributed over half a billion dollars to charitable programs in the U.S.
And let's not forget our outstanding dealer partners, who are some of the biggest contributors to charities in their communities.

I know of two great examples right here in the Chicago area.

One is the Turning Pointe Autism Foundation... founded by Randy and Kim Wolf of Lexus of Naperville... along with Randy's father, Dan Wolf, Sr., and his brother, Dan Wolf, Jr., of Toyota of Naperville.

This foundation provides education programs, career preparation and specialized communication training to families and individuals living and learning with Autism.

Another example is Restoration Ministries...founded by Ronnie Colosimo, Dealer Principal at Oak Lawn Toyota...to help individuals who struggle with addictions. Services include free residential treatment along with after-school and performing arts education programs... and much more.

So when you add it all up...this is a GREAT time to be in the auto business.

The auto industry is poised to take advantage of the improving economy and achieve another year of sales growth.

But to ensure long-term success, automakers, our dealer partners, policymakers and regulators must work together to meet the future needs of our customers and society.

We need everyone... to help us tell our stories about:

Our exciting and dynamic industry...
Our stylish, fun-to-drive cars...
Our new technologies that meet tomorrow's transportation needs...
And our many efforts to enrich the communities where we live and work.

By working together, the industry WILL continue to thrive and enjoy a bright future.

Thank you... and I wish you all the best for a successful 2014.

One last thing...

Please join me at 9:30 at the Toyota "Off-Road Ride and Drive" space near the Scion exhibit for a special announcement.

Then... come on down to the Toyota exhibit at 2 o'clock to join me, Lesa France Kennedy and Joie Chitwood of International Speedway Corporation for an exciting motorsports announcement.

See you there everybody!


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 215 Comments
      • 1 Year Ago
      I indeed seriously decided to give myself some rest of the discussion about the BEV-FCV issue (as I’ve already done it before), but seeing the ever more emotional fight, I just jot down some innocent thoughts again. I don’t attempt to reply to all or actually any, infinitely repeated, circular logic arguments below, rather would try to draw some broader conclusion about the social dimension of it. This thread perfectly demonstrates the incredible importance of ‘gatekeepers’ in the 21st century, where information became ubiquitous (globally) and clearly became the fourth branch of power, some say it’s actually the first, since the final word (i.e. votes) are coming from people, who comment here (and of course anywhere else). This is a very delicate balance between journalists, decision-makers and the ‘we-the-people’ crowd, who have – and of course free to have – opinions. Disclaimer: this is not a scientific study again and using a well-known general definition, like e.g. below, doesn’t require sources (which is of course not a plagiarism in any sense). So the definition: ‘gatekeeper’ is a person who controls access to something, for example via a city gate. In the late 20th century the term came into metaphorical use, referring to individuals who decide whether [and also how] a given message will be distributed by a mass medium. The actual hardest part of being a ‘gatekeeper’, is to give a broad, but easily comprehensible concise information about a complex issue like BEV-FCV, since otherwise ‘laypeople’ cannot form reasonable opinions and usually resort to the already explained convenient conspiracy theory method. Being a decision maker part is even harder, since the current structure of democracy (anywhere in the world) is forcing decision makers to inevitably oppose each other (as opposed to co-operate and of course no one can remain ‘unbiased’ as well) which generates a permanent tension and in many cases escalate into similar fights like the BEV-FCV (but this exchange of views is not meant for the pages of ABG). At the moment we have a BEV-FCV situation which has been already developed, therefore, needs crisis management since the micromanagement (‘like a boss’) cannot be effective anymore and it clearly needs a concentrated effort from all sides of the aisles. Now I don’t want to reflect on any of the comments below only a last note like a Post Script: It might be worth to consider – like e.g. sister site Engadget already have done it – to eliminate the possibility of down votes. Why on Earth? The inevitable multitude of down votes on any ever so slightly ‘pro-hydrogen’ comment scares away most newcomers with very reasonable thoughts + the ability to only up-vote would motivate disagreeing commenters to actually explain their disagreement instead of one (or more) impulse down-vote, resulting more comments (and a healthier business model as well). But this was just a little post script, nothing else.
        • 2 Months Ago
        Of course all these casual thoughts doesn't change my intention to travel before too long.
      goodoldgorr
      • 1 Year Ago
      Hydrogen is so nice that there won't be a single fire with hydrogen cars and stations
        goodoldgorr
        • 2 Months Ago
        @goodoldgorr
        I saw an old movie with a psycho actor that made a big spill at a gas station and throw a cigarette and there were a huge fire with explosions. You won't see that with hydrogen as the gas is safely contained and you cannot flush any gas in the air.
      JB
      • 1 Year Ago
      If people think hydrogen is worth government investment in California, explain why CNG has not caught on will regular drivers. CNG is cleaner, its domestic, you can fast fill, the technology is being sold and it is not that expensive to buy the car and to fuel. The down side, is that filling CNG at home takes as long a s a EV, and takes a lot of electricity too compress it to 3500 psi and fast fill stations are too far away to be convenient. Not that its going to be even harder for 10,000 psi Hydrogen because you cant fill at home.
      Rotation
      • 1 Year Ago
      This just seems very hopeful to me. As an EV driver, I know the pain of expecting to use a charger when you get somewhere and finding it is in use. Having not merely sufficient refueling points, but enough that you don't have to worry much about one being broken or if 6 people just showed up to refuel 5 minutes before you is part of the gasoline car experience. And it's one that hydrogen will have to replicate if they really want to sell you a hydrogen car as not having the hassle of a BEV. So none of this "one charger in just the right place" stuff, it's over optimistic.
        Grendal
        • 2 Months Ago
        @Rotation
        There is a big opportunity, for now, of coordinating data for charger use and functionality. If we can do traffic data on the fly then someone should be able to do chargers in a similar way. It would be nice to know ahead of time whether the charger you want to use is available and functioning.
      markrogo
      • 1 Year Ago
      Do they think if they keep saying this, it will become true? Because, honestly, it's nonsense beyond the "multiples at one intersection" example. In my neighborhood, if you remove any of the 4 gas stations that are strewn about, exactly none of the people who use them would buy hydrogen cars. The extra 20 minutes of time to hit an H2 station at Bay Area rush hours would drive them completely insane. While I'm sure you can get by with fewer H2 stations than gasoline ones, it's nowhere near 15% of the total. I'd bet if you dissect the study, you'll see how totally broken it is and understand that the real figure is much closer to 75%.
      Naturenut99
      • 1 Year Ago
      I've already responded to surveys, saying I will never buy a FCV. I mean that, if it meant moving to the city and only using public trans. or having an EV built for me. Even finding a way to do it myself. But I will never put a cent toward a FCV. They are less efficient. Less convenient. ( I can fill an EV at home), hydrogen still produced by carbon based fuels, and are just another way for the oil co's to have us buy the ----- again. Fool me once.... Shame on you. Fool me twice.... Shame on me. Oil co's, I plan to never trust you again.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 2 Months Ago
        @Naturenut99
        Nobody is forcing FCVs on you. Relax.
        Marco Polo
        • 2 Months Ago
        @Naturenut99
        @ Naturenut99 LTAK is right, no one' s demanding you buy gasoline. In fact, no one ever forced you to buy gasoline ! But, I'll bet you won't object to riding in the gasoline powered ambulance, that takes you to hospital after you attempt to cross the road wearing those blinkers......, or refuse the services of the fire brigade etc, etc. I drive an EV, and have for years, but not because I 'hate' oil companies ! The oil companies don't care if you trust them, or not. They produce an essential resource, of which the least profitable by-product is gasoline/diesel.
      Joeviocoe
      • 2 Months Ago
      No, just forcing your tax dollars to pay for H2 fuel stations which may or may not ever be used to capacity.
      Joeviocoe
      • 2 Months Ago
      "In 2009, 11.6 percent of all electricity came from renewable resources such as wind, solar, geothermal, biomass and small hydroelectric facilities. Large hydro plants generated another 9.2 percent of our electricity." http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/ So over 20% of California's electricity is from renewable sources. And by 2020, it will be 33%. That is for ALL electricity usage. Right now, in 2014, with a sizable percentage of EV owners who either have rooftop solar, or purchase renewables from their utility for just a few cents/kwh more. http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/markets/pricing.shtml?page=1 .... it is reasonable to say that current California EVs are already meeting 33% renewables. ----------------------- The current mandate for hydrogen to be produced by renewables, is NOT yet challenged by scale. As soon as (IF) Hydrogen production becomes scaled up... expect a full fight from Natural Gas Lobbyists to reduce that mandate.
      DaveMart
      • 1 Year Ago
      Here is an estimate of the cost of setting up hydrogen infrastructure for the UK: 'a basic initial network of Hydrogen Refuelling Stations is required to encourage early adoption of FCEVs and there will inevitably be a lag between the creation of this network and there being sufficient FCEVs on the road to make it financially self-sustaining. Phase 1 of the project estimated the total finance needed to be around £400m to 2030. Phase 2 will be focussed on both reducing this figure and considering different models for delivering it.' http://fuelcellsworks.com/news/2013/02/04/electrolysis-to-play-a-key-role-in-hydrogen-roadmap-for-uk/ This is over around 15 years, and comes to around £25 million a year, after which the cost of hydrogen infrastructure should be self sustaining, as the cost per station is in the same ball park as existing petrol stations. To give an idea of how this money compares to other transport infrastructure, the London to Birmingham high speed rail link is estimated at around £50 billion. So transforming road transport costs less than 1% as much as building one high speed rail link. And some are claiming that the costs for hydrogen infrastructure are completely unaffordable. They are no more unaffordable than providing charging for battery cars is.
        paulwesterberg
        • 2 Months Ago
        @DaveMart
        Why should the public pay to finance private fueling stations?
          Edge
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          DaveMart: I prefer EV's myself, but the bias here against hydrogen is nuts. I don't think it's that easy to predict whether hydrogen will succeed of not. You have people like paulwesterberg, who's so optimistic about EV's that he was predicting in another thread we would have breakthroughs allowing us to have solar EV's, like the experimental EV's that race across Australia, as family vehicles! Why not also, predict breakthroughs for hydrogen. Nope, to him, that's an option! Yup solar EV's completely powered by the Sun with solar cells on the car itself! Anyone who tries to contribute here by saying anything positive about FCV, get's down-ranked like crazy. They are like an EV mob here.
          Edge
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          paulwesterberg: So are you against the government paying subsidies on EV's also?
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          --" I prefer EV's myself" All FCV advocates seem to say that anyway.... but only because you don't have a choice. You cannot 'prefer' something that doesn't exist. I just wish FCV advocates stop trying to convince people that they are neutral.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          The unused or barely used charging points in the UK certainly cost money, at any rate. Since I am in favour of electric vehicles of all sorts and think we need to make sure that we have alternatives available when the oil runs out I don't mind that, any more than I object to the £25 million a year hydrogen stations are likely to cost the taxpayer for the next 15 years. This 'massive and totally unaffordable' cost barrier works out to being around 0.0025% of the UK economy per year.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Edge... new information should change people's mind. Like actually building H2 stations and offering H2 at reasonable costs and selling a FCV for a reasonable cost. But Hydrogen advocates can only speculate into the future. The problem with Internet forums... is NOT that people have "tenacity" when debating... but rather that when people get frustrated (or realize they don't have a cogent argument), they deflect from the actual argument... and start comment threads focused on irrelevant things, like... How many question marks were used, and whether that means someone is agitated. Downvotes The 'mob mentality' of internet commentators Emotional favoritism of one tech over another. How about we get back on topic now.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          You have to admire the raw tenacity of the anti-FCV crowd. I mean, they don't just politely dismiss a concept, they come in and nail your head to the floor while they explain how impossible they think mass-produced FCVs are, while simultaneously moralizing about how evil and corrupt the FCV paradigm is.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          No, I was speaking about the Chicken and Egg paradox on this particular thread.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Edge... Subsidies for purchased vehicles are different. They are only paid when a vehicle is actually sold. Fueling stations can just sit for years without any customers, becoming a VERY expensive waste.
          Edge
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Joeviocoe: > "Fueling stations can just sit for years without any customers, becoming a VERY expensive waste." You just said down below, that they will not allow plug-in options for FCV's, so that the stations get used, and supported. Make up your mind!
          Edge
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          > "We're getting ranked on our comments?" You deserve a cookie! ;) > "Sorry you feel mobbed, but welcome to the Internet." It's something I noticed on anyone posting favorably on hydrogen articles. I'm not personally affected by it. Just thought that by pointing out people's actions, they might change, and be a bit more opened minded.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Edge.. if you are taking "downvotes" here on ABG seriously.. then no amount of consolation could help you. But seriously, I also agree that FCVs have "potential to co-exist with EV's." We are just arguing about the scope and scale of that coexistence. I think that FCVs will hold a similar role that CNG and LPG vehicles have... niche fleet sales where the fleet operators own/operate fueling. But articles such as these suggest that FCVs will be a significant part of personal transport fleets using commercially available fueling infrastructure. I disagree, for the reasons I have expressed. Sorry you feel mobbed, but welcome to the Internet.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          The UK is paying to finance fast charging points throughout the country, as well as regular speed chargers, many of which have had very little use to date: 'They were hailed as the future of environmentally friendly motoring and millions of pounds of tax payer subsidies were spent enrolling them - but the electric car has failed to spark any enthusiasm for drivers. Out of a total of 1,392 installed on London streets, just 349 charging points were used between July and September. Installed at a cost of £8.3 million, 75 per cent failed to attract a single driver, latest figures released under a Freedom of Information request revealed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523718/Drivers-arent-switching-Publicly-funded-electric-car-charging-points-barely-used.html#ixzz2saF47LTj They are also legally bound to install 70,000 charging points Do you think they should not do that, or do you simply denigrate the ones you don't fancy? Since oil won't last forever, perhaps it is advisable to do something Governments tend to go according to expert advice, and the experts don't know how it will work out between batteries and fuel cells. Absolute knowledge about that is the province of wholly unqualified people posting on the web. The UK is paying £5,000 at point of sale for every alternative fuel car sold. This is guaranteed until they reach 5% of the market, or around 100,000 cars a year. The cost of that is around £500 million in the last year it will apply. Most to date has gone to battery cars, so the amounts you are whinging on about in spite of not having to contribute towards it are tiny in comparison. But then the supposedly totally unaffordable costs of hydrogen infrastructure were always as innumerate as most of the other guff put out by those ideologically opposed to fuel cell cars.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Wait a second... We're getting ranked on our comments?
          Edge
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Joeviocoe, the constant downranking by people contributing anything positive to the FCV position proves otherwise. That's not a debate, but a mob mentality against anyone saying anything positive about it. btw, I'm not a FCV advocate. I'm being open minded about it. It has potential to co-exist with EV's.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          "How about we get back on topic now." Absolutely. Joeviocoe, you were sharing your speculations about the motivations of global corporations...
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          My apologies if that sounded harsh... my NYC style of debate is often that way. But I feel that saying, "bias here against hydrogen" is just a deflection of the argument. Bias: "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair" This is not "prejudice"... we've been "judging" Hydrogen for decades now... and have a lot of experience with media hype such as this article. This forum is filled with people who have been here for a long while now... we have come to conclusions yes, but not on a whim. There are well reasoned arguments on both sides... and would ask that you not insult the discourse by saying that this is unfair bias. We all have reason to think the way we do... and often write ad nausem discussing the supporting evidence for our beliefs.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          --"You just said down below, that they will not allow plug-in options for FCV's, so that the stations get used, and supported. Make up your mind!" No... I said, "No Plugin FCV exists because the economics are even worse..". Meaning that even with current FCVs being completely dependent on H2 stations.... there does not exist a great enough demand to justify the multi-million dollar investment per station... since so few FCVs are on the road. And my comment reflects that, although PHFCVs may seem great for consumers... it worsens the economics for H2 suppliers... which is why it won't happen. Welcome to the Chicken / Egg problem.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Months Ago
          @paulwesterberg
          Of course, for the US costs would not be as massive as 0.0025% of the economy, as only lead areas particularly California would need to get pump priming money. Once established, then normal commercial investment would spread it throughout the country as it would be clear that it worked, so a couple of lean years as numbers of fuel cell cars built up would be within normal investment horizons.
      mylexicon
      • 1 Year Ago
      The argument makes sense. The current gas station business model leads to super saturation. Hydrogen will not need to replicate the same level of saturation to achieve coverage. I've always preferred the hydrogen economy to the battery economy, but I'm not convinced this is going anywhere yet.
      Letstakeawalk
      • 1 Year Ago
      "...electric vehicle supporters like Elon Muck..." Might want to fix that typo.
      Joeviocoe
      • 2 Months Ago
      Agree with their mouths, disagree with their hands. GM, BMW and Nissan seem to be taking VERY different approaches.
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