It's a European kind of debut for the hydrogen-powered Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell (which will be known as the Tuscon Fuel Cell when it arrives in the US). Hyundai showed off the first production ix35 in Geneva earlier this year and this week delivered 15 of the H2 SUVs to the City of Copehagen. The avant garde vehicles will be used in the city's municipal fleet as part of the city's "carbon-neutral" ambitions. The timing was good, since Copenhagen opened the first hydrogen refueling station in Denmark at the same time. That station, called H2Station CAR-100, was built in just 48 hours, as you can see in the video below.

Hyundai has been teasing the ix35 at various business and political events throughout Europe this year, and started developing hydrogen fuel cell technology back in 1998. The new ix35s are an important step, since they represent the early wave of the 1,000 ix35 Fuel Cells that Hyundai wants to build by 2015.

Hyundai says the ix35 Fuel Cell vehicles are the "first hydrogen-powered vehicles manufactured on a production line to be introduced in Europe," which may be true, but Honda was building series production H2 fuel cell vehicles, the FCX Clarity, five years ago.



Show full PR text
Hyundai Motor delivers first 15 hydrogen-powered ix35 Fuel Cell in Europe
  • City of Copenhagen takes delivery of first 15 Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell units
  • Vehicles to be used in municipal fleet, supporting city's 'carbon-neutral' aim
  • ix35 Fuel Cell is world's first assembly line-produced hydrogen-powered car
June 3, 2013 - Hyundai Motor Company has today delivered the first of its assembly line-produced ix35 Fuel Cell vehicles to the City of Copenhagen in Denmark. They were handed over by Hyundai Motor Europe, Hyundai Motor's European sales subsidiary, during the opening ceremony of Denmark's first hydrogen refuelling station.

The 15 ix35 Fuel Cell units are the first hydrogen-powered vehicles manufactured on a production line to be introduced in Europe.

Mr. Byung Kwon Rhim, President of Hyundai Motor Europe said, "Hyundai Motor is committed to hydrogen as the fuel of the future for Europe. Delivering assembly-line produced ix35 Fuel Cell is evidence that we have a realistic solution to the region's sustainable mobility needs."

The ix35 Fuel Cell produces no harmful tailpipe emissions – only water vapour – and so its use will help the city of Copenhagen achieve its aim of becoming carbon-neutral by 2025.

Since 2011, Hyundai Motor has deployed prototypes of its third-generation ix35 Fuel Cell in a wide range of initiatives to raise awareness of hydrogen's benefits as an automotive fuel; to support the drive for establishing a pan-European refueling infrastructure; and to demonstrate the cars' real-world practicality to public and private organisations.

For example, EU policy-makers have access to ix35 Fuel Cell vehicles – via the EU Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU) in Brussels – showing the market-readiness of Hyundai Motor's technology. And, earlier this year, senior representatives from 100 European businesses learned about and tested the ix35 Fuel Cell at a Hyundai Motor event in Berlin.

Hyundai Motor has been a world leader in the development of hydrogen fuel cell technology ever since research into its first fuel cell began in 1998. The company's proprietary fuel cell technology is developed at its Eco Technology Research Institute in Korea. Hyundai intends to build 1.000 ix35 Fuel Cell cars by 2015 at its Ulsan factory, also in Korea.

The ix35 Fuel Cell is equipped with a 100 kW (136 ps) electric motor, and can reach a maximum speed of 160 km/h. Two hydrogen storage tanks, located between the vehicle's rear axle, with a total capacity of 5,64 kg, enable the vehicle to travel a total of 594 km on a single fuelling. Filling the storage hydrogen tanks to maximum capacity takes just a few minutes.

-Ends-

About Hyundai Motor

Established in 1967, Hyundai Motor Co. has grown into the Hyundai Motor Group, with more than two dozen auto-related subsidiaries and affiliates. Hyundai Motor - which has seven manufacturing bases outside of South Korea including Brazil, China, the Czech Republic, India, Russia, Turkey and the U.S. - sold 4,4 million vehicles globally in 2012. Hyundai Motor, which employs over 90.000 worldwide, offers a full line-up of products including small to large passenger vehicles, SUVs and commercial vehicles.

Further information about Hyundai Motor and its products is available at www.hyundai.com.

About Hyundai Motor Europe

The company designs, engineers and manufactures cars in Europe, specifically for European consumers. In 2012, Hyundai achieved European sales of 444.000 units, taking a new-car market share of 3,5 of the vehicles Hyundai sells in the region are designed, engineered and tested in Europe. And more than 70% are built at its two local factories (Czech Republic and Turkey), including New Generation i30, which was shortlisted for Europe's 2013 Car of the Year award and has won 14 awards throughout the region. Hyundai sells cars in 28 European countries across 2.500 outlets.

Hyundai offers its unique, Europe-only, Five Year Triple Care warranty package with all new cars sold in the region, providing customers with a five-year warranty with no mileage limit, five years of roadside assistance and five years of vehicle health checks.

More information about Hyundai Motor Europe and its products is available at www.hyundai.com/eu.


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 124 Comments
      Marco Polo
      • 1 Day Ago
      Each technology gather it's own band of fierce supporters and fans. That's great ! Everything new needs passionate advocates, researchers, engineers and entrepreneurs. However, it's disappointing to see the irrational intolerance some people display for other technologies. Be for something, doesn't necessarily mean everything else is wrong. Tribalism is a very primitive facet of human nature and always focus on 'hatred' of some real or imagined enemy. The more fanatical and venomous the 'hatred', the more imaginary and evil the enemy. This is because our most terrible, and most implacable enemy is ourselves !
        Betty m
        • 1 Day Ago
        @Marco Polo
        Since I started with my on-line business I earn $62 each quarter-hour. It sounds unbelievable however you wont forgive yourself if you do not check it out. >>>>>>>>>> www.www.Day35.cℴm >>>>>>>>>
        Joeviocoe
        • 1 Day Ago
        @Marco Polo
        You've been here long enough to know that this is NOT some simply Pet Favoritism of a particular technology. There are good, reasoned arguments why people think FCVs and Hydrogen are NOT the solution. We have heard arguments from the H2 advocates too. The intolerance is NOT irrational. FCVs compete directly with EVs and PHEVs. I am all for comprehensive solutions. But lets not get it twisted. One tech WILL dominate over the other in the main passenger vehicle markets.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          For instance, GSA... the largest government fleet operator, most of their fleet vehicles are passenger vehicles that the drivers must find fuel on the local economy. Very few of GSA vehicles are "Depot Style" Fleet vehicles where the vehicles fuel up at a fleet owned station.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          LTAW, don't act like you're the calm, rational voice of reason here. Yes, Hydrogen advocates ARE the minority here. But a loud minority in Congress.... and well financed. Certainly Not unsofisticated. So far you launch accusation after accusation at me, for things I've never said, nor have implied. And we spend countless posts clarifying what I said, just so you can ignore it and misconstrue my words again next week.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Marco, -"LTAW is always a calm voice of reason ! " Glad to see a fanboi has a fanboi. But seriously, are you really going to over analyze my use of CAPS to emphasis. I am not using ALL CAPS in a method of shouting. I don't think anybody has said that. That does not mean I am not calm. I should be able to defend myself when accused without being called irrational. DaveMart and LTAW quite often get defensive if I say anything hinting that automakers might be fudging their numbers. Tell me why don't you tell LTAW to calm down for his use of an exclamation point? Point is, you cannot tell anybody's demeanor from blog writing. Stop trying to analyze my particular writing style.. it is not germane to the topic and only comes across as petty and distracting. I am simply trying to make my points without LTAW reinterpreting my comments every week. As much as I have explained my points, he should have got them by now.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          So, you're saying you *don't* think long-range vehicles make a viable market for HFCs? Clarigy yourself, sir! Buses and trucks, whether long or short range - I think FCVs will do ok. Larger passenger vehicles, like sedans and pickups/SUVs, I also think will do well as FCVs. "Hydrogen is trying desperately to convince people and government that FCVs are going to be a big hit in the passenger market. This will not happen" Now say it like you mean it! Use some capitals, perhaps, so we know exactly how strongly you feel that all the automakers are making a huge mistake. Considering how much of the market buys those larger vehicles, I think it's a pretty fair assessment that the automakers have made that there will be a fair-sized chunk of the passenger auto market that will go towards FCVs, while also recognizing that the strength of the BEV is really small commuter cars that travel very limited ranges and can easily be recharged at home.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          " But that is NOT the argument that Hydrogen Advocates are pushing. They are saying that FCVs will enter strongly into the Passenger consumer market. And I have explained why that is unlikely to happen." Translation: Hydrogen advocates claiming that FCVs will enter into the market = The major automakers of the world, several global energy corporations, and the governments of several of the world's largest economies. Joeviocoe would like to image that hydrogen advocates are a minority, lacking in scientific, technological, and economic sophistication. Simply put, there is an extremely large world-wide push to develop hydrogen fuel cells and FCVs. I am happy that Joeviocoe agrees that they will exist in niche markets, because that's what many advocates have claimed all along; FCVs for heavier larger-range vehicles, BEVs for smaller shorter-range commuters. Joeviocoe - you're really gotten your feathers ruffled!
          Marco Polo
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          @ Joeviocoe. Joe, I always believe your heart's in the right place, but sometimes I wonder if you think before you write! " intolerance is NOT irrational " ! WTF, you mean 'intolerance' of other idea's, is rational ? "One tech WILL dominate over the other in the main passenger vehicle markets" Why must only one technology be dominant ? It's quite possible that several technologies can co-exist in such a huge marketplace. In fact, that will be the case for many decades. Brazil. Mauritius, and other sugar-rich countries will still have a market for bio-fuel, Australia will persist with it's vast LPG network, fuelled by abundant Natural Gas. Iceland will become all electric, etc. EV's will become more competitive and capture an increasingly larger share of the market, but more than 4 billion engines currently use fossil fuel, so the market for oil products will continue, especially in poorer countries. Each year their are more than 80 million vehicles produced globally. There's room for any technology that can show a benefit to it's purchaser. Personally, I would prefer to see more EV's sold, but it's important to remain open minded.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Even now, again. I Have told over and over again. Yet you try twist my words or just conveniently forget them. The "NICHE" is NOT based on long range vs. Short range... but instead, localized company owned fleets, (like taxi, bus, and short range trucks). Which is relatively small compared to passenger vehicles. And this, YOU, Dave, DaveMart, and most pro hydrogen advocates do NOT agree with. Hydrogen is trying desperately to convince people and government that FCVs are going to be a big hit in the passenger market. This will not happen
          Marco Polo
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          @ Joeviocoe LTAW is always a calm voice of reason ! You on the other hand, employ highly emotive terms, that you later explain mean something different from their accepted usage, then castigate people for not understanding you ! Joe, I'm sure you know what you mean, but to the rest of us words like "corruption" really do have a specific meaning of "intent" and malfeasance. "Unintentional" , ''undue'' influence, may be undesirable, but "corruption" is hyperbolic overkill !
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          LTAW, which is why I have been careful to write specifically WHAT TYPE of fleet vehicles I think FCVs could fit well into.... and NOT the Passenger "Fleets".... such as when a corporation or government entity purchases an entire Fleet of passenger vehicles for employee use. Then gives them a travel Credit Card to find fueling stations and pay with that card. Even though that is considered, "Fleet" use.... it still becomes completely reliant on existing, ambiguously available gasoline/diesel infrastructure. The "Fleet" use I have described time and time again.. is a Fleet that must (for economic reasons) own and operate their own fueling infrastructure (or at least an exclusive lease). Some taxi companies do this, and I believe most bus companies do this. Basically a "Depot Style Fleet". The Fleet managers handle everything from maintenance to fueling. And THIS... is NOT " a substantial part of many automaker's portfolio".
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          "I think that FCVs will work well for any fleet user that owns and operates (or at least leases) the H2 stations they use." Great! I'm sure you are aware, that fleet sales are a substantial part of many automaker's portfolio. Passenger automobiles are often sold to large fleets, as are delivery trucks and OTR trucks and buses. So, again, I'll reiterate: I think the automakers are fairly reasonable in planning to sell large numbers of passenger automobiles, as well as larger trucks and buses that travel short and longer ranges. You seem to agree (seem to, I don't want to put words into your mouth) that fleets make a viable starting point for FCV introduction.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          "The "Fleet" use I have described time and time again.. is a Fleet that must (for economic reasons) own and operate their own fueling infrastructure (or at least an exclusive lease). Some taxi companies do this, and I believe most bus companies do this. Basically a "Depot Style Fleet". The Fleet managers handle everything from maintenance to fueling. And THIS... is NOT " a substantial part of many automaker's portfolio". Tell that to Ford, who continued producing Panther platform cars for law enforcement and taxi fleets long after the consumer demand dried up. The Crown Vic was "fleet only" for five years. That's a pretty serious figure for the company's bottom line.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Yes, I think before and during my writing. And I am using words that have precise meanings regardless of the emotional knee-jerk reaction some have to them. Always assume that I am trying to use the proper definition of words, and not some colloquial meaning that has become popular recently. Are you "Tolerant" of Corruption, Government Waste, and Corporate Greed??? Because THAT is what I am "Intolerant" of. And THAT is NOT "irrational". Not the "Idea" of Hydrogen in general. I have explained over and over again. That I am simply opposed to H2 Lobbyists convincing government to spend Billions of dollars on an infrastructure that will ultimately lose. ***note, the word "corruption" is NOT the same as some intentional conspiracy (as someone is bound to accuse me of)... but of the general idea that industry can, and often does, have an undue influence on what should be a democratic process of political representation.*** --------------------------------------- Once again, the word is "Dominate". Not what you are thinking at first glance. Yes, of course multiple techs can and will co-exist. In Europe, Gas and Diesels passenger cars are about 50%/50%. But NOT in the U.S..... as Gasoline "Dominates" Diesel in THAT market... yet diesels do co-exist. With FCVs and PlugIns being so radically different (unlike the similar gas and diesel fuels)... yes, "One tech WILL dominate over the other in the main passenger vehicle markets." Which is what I said. I don't even think that FCVs will have a similar ratio that diesel:gasoline currently has. And as I have said at least 20 times already, I DO think H2 FCVs have a place in niche fleet markets. But that is NOT the argument that Hydrogen Advocates are pushing. They are saying that FCVs will enter strongly into the Passenger consumer market. And I have explained why that is unlikely to happen.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Hyundai hydrogen fuel cell car available to drive at this year’s Company Car in Action • Exclusive drives in a production version of Hyundai’s ix35 fuel cell at Company Car in Action at the Millbrook Proving Group, 11-12 June • The Fleet News Company Car in Action two-day driving event is the biggest of the year for fleet operators and decision-makers • Hyundai’s model line-up from across the range also includes the new generation Santa Fe, rated as the safest ‘Large Off-Road 4x4’ in 2012 following best-in-class Euro NCAP results in all categories Hyundai will offer exclusive drives in a production version of the ix35 fuel cell vehicle at Company Car in Action. The manufacturer is one of the leaders in the development of fuel cell vehicles and will provide the opportunity to experience the ix35 hydrogen vehicle, which Hyundai says can now be ordered, at the event which takes place at the Millbrook Proving Ground from 11-12 June. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are fuelled with hydrogen gas which is stored in an on-board tank. A chemical reaction powers an electric motor, and the only emissions from the exhaust pipe are water vapour. Performance is equivalent to an electric vehicle while range is similar to that of a typical petrol car - often around 300 miles. The ix35 fuel cell vehicle, which will form part of CCIA’s ‘Hydrogen Experience incorporating a debate with industry and infrastructure experts, is based on the current version of the car available with a choice of petrol or diesel engines. The technology is packaged under the luggage compartment, and is ready for production. Capable of doing up to 369 miles on a full tank of hydrogen, the ix35 Fuel Cell can be refuelled in the same time it takes to refuel a conventional petrol/diesel vehicle, but more importantly does not require customers to make major operational concessions to achieve zero emissions from their fleet vehicles. Martin Wilson, fleet director at Hyundai, said: "The ix35 Fuel Cell will give fleet managers a unique and early opportunity to drive the first series-produced hydrogen fuel cell as well as to trial the realworld viability of the vehicle as part of a modern fleet operation." Hyundai’s line-up at CCIA, the biggest event in the industry attracting up to 1,000 fleet decisionmakers, also includes the new generation Santa Fe, rated as the safest ‘Large Off-Road 4x4’ in 2012 following best-in-class Euro NCAP results in all categories. The latest Santa Fe is Hyundai’s first vehicle to be equipped with an ‘active bonnet’, which activates if a pedestrian is hit, reducing impact forces and reducing the risk of serious injury. New i30 hatchaback, which arrived in showrooms in January, will be found alongside supermini i20, i10 city car, i40 saloon,Veloster Turbo and ix35. Fleet operators can register to take part in the event at www.companycarinaction.com http://company-car-in-action.fleetnews.co.uk/content/upload/7/manufacturers/press-release-hyundai-at-ccia.pdf
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          -"So, you're saying you *don't* think long-range vehicles make a viable market for HFCs? Clarigy yourself, sir!" "Buses and trucks, whether long or short range - I think FCVs will do ok. Larger passenger vehicles, like sedans and pickups/SUVs, I also think will do well as FCVs. " No, I said the market boundaries will be Fleet vs. Personal use. Long or short range matters very little for a FCV... but what matters is the accessibility of H2 stations. I think that FCVs will work well for any fleet user that owns and operates (or at least leases) the H2 stations they use. Fork lifts are an example. So for long range buses and trucks, sure FCVs might work well... as long as that fleet operator is also operating the fueling stations too. Most likely it will be an exclusive deal. Similar to how CNG and Biofuels are distributed to fleets... retail consumers usually cannot purchase from them.
      CoolWaters
      • 1 Year Ago
      This is the biggest DEAD END in automotive history. Who's going to be interested in the Most Expensive Method of Automotive Transportation? Tillerson the Incompetent, at Exxon, sure, but Normal Americans? I doubt it. The future is Solar Power for your Home and Auto. Solar will be cheaper then ALL OTHER Energy Sources in 6 years and 6 months. New Breakthru's in Battery Tech are happening every day, ( Sulfur batteries with 4X the range of Li ). Only a fool would spend money in this array.
        DaveMart
        • 1 Day Ago
        @CoolWaters
        'Solar will be cheaper then ALL OTHER Energy Sources in 6 years and 6 months.' It takes a considerable fool to churn out a prophecy with that fake precision. Have you given up on the Illuminati, and changed your religious obsession to renewables?
      2 wheeled menace
      • 1 Day Ago
      Really? the US government already knows what hydrogen will cost per mile, even though there are something like 10-14 actual consumer-accessible hydrogen stations in this entire country - all heavily government subsidized? A hydrogen car has more parts than an EV, more things to wear down. You get to replace the fuel cell and the battery down the line.. Yes, it's probably as quiet as an EV, but the power that the fuel cell puts out is very wimpy, you will not see the same kind of high sustained output that is possible with just a huge battery supplying all the power. That's why the 0-60 specs of fuel cell cars destined for the future are typically very subpar. The hydrogen station tethering is going to be way, way worse than the situation with EV. Everyone has a plug in their house, but there are complaints that there aren't many charging stations. With hydrogen, you don't have the fuel source in your house, you need the station, and all the infrastructure must be built from the ground up, which is very expensive. I can't believe you are so persistent in arguing for your pipe dream, i literally don't get it. You must be like Carney and have a vested interest in this hydrogen stuff.
      Joeviocoe
      • 1 Day Ago
      I still do not think that anybody will risk their own money to properly scale an infrastructure demo to a level that would yield an accurate assessment. I know, I know, you have a lot of confidence in the DOE's Hydrogen.Energy.Gov website. I do NOT. I have explained why I think that they are fairly tainted by a very powerful hydrogen lobby, working for decades to embed themselves in the DOE. The DOE can project all day long, but they still base their entire model on assumptions of consumer demand. I don't think they know the extent of Hydrogen Station Anxiety that will prevent FCVs sales.... I think they are drinking the Kool-Aid that the Hydrogen Lobby has been serving for so long. The Hydrogen Lobby has been spouting the same line about FCVs being the future, for long before the world really knew what EVs with Fast charging, or PHEVs could do. Now that they are maturing fast.... the Hydrogen Lobby has not changed it's tune. They are still only comparing FCVs to either Gasoline cars, or EVs with mediocre charging capabilities. They won't dare make a real comparison of FCVs to the likely 2016 models of Tesla or the PHEVs of 2016. If they did, there is no way they could make the case that FCVs are somehow more appealing at a cheaper cost.
      Letstakeawalk
      • 1 Day Ago
      Dave, here's a vid you might enjoy about BMW's hydrogen fuel cell lift-truck fleet. http://www.plugpower.com/AboutUs/Documentation_Literature/BMWvideo2.aspx PW - It would be nice to know those numbers, but at the moment there's not a lot of public info available, due to the proprietary nature of the info regarding these early-market systems. Any number that would be given, would be a generic estimate. The DoE website really does have the best info regarding those production cost estimates, but not to the specific level of that particular station (which would depend on a lot a variables - shipping costs, labor costs, utility rates, local gov. fees). Perhaps you should simply follow the progress of the station, and see how it performs over time. No doubt we'll collect a variety of data points regarding many of the questions you pose, over time. That's why the station was built, really - to test the systems and see how the economics play out. "The following table summarizes the 2011 status cost ranges shown in Figures 1 and 2 for near-term hydrogen production pathways requiring additional research and development (R&D) to meet the cost threshold goal of $2-$4/gge for untaxed dispensed hydrogen by 2020 [3]. The H2A projections for these pathways were based on the latest technology advancements reviewed by the DOE-EERE Fuel Cell Technologies (FCT) Program as of 2011." Distributed Electrolysis: $4.30 - $7.10 /gge (untaxed) It is important to recall that due to the increased efficiency of an FCV over an ICE (2-3x better), the gge cost really would be equivalent to $2-$3.5 gallon gasoline. http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/12002_h2_prod_status_cost_plots.pdf Remember, it is a demonstration program. Now that it has started, we can begin to validate or refute some of the projections that have been made.
      Joeviocoe
      • 1 Day Ago
      -"The cost of hydrogen has always been the *least* concern." B.S. Maybe to you, and the few that the H2 lobby has managed to convince. But the general public has ZERO idea about what H2 costs. -"There's no doubt that they can supply hydrogen for less than the equivalent gasoline cost" And THERE lies the false comparison. FCVs must compete with the low costs of operating PHEVs and EVs too. The reason these demos cannot validate the assumption of low cost Hydrogen, is because they CANNOT. These demos would have to scale very large to even simulate the infrastructure logistics required to get a good understanding of the price of H2.
      Letstakeawalk
      • 1 Day Ago
      Here's some documentation regarding running cost analysis: http://hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/13006_ldv_life_cycle_costs.pdf
        Jesse Gurr
        • 1 Day Ago
        @Letstakeawalk
        I have another question: On page 7, Table 3: Why do they not give the battery size for the FCV? It needs to have a battery. All of their graphs/data are wrong then if they didn't take into account the battery costs for the FCV.
          Dave
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          The graph only gives battery size for plugins: "Batteries, Total kWh for PHEVs, EREV & BEVs" FWIW - Hyundai uses the battery pack from the Sonata hybrid in the ix35 FCEV.
          Jesse Gurr
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          I noticed also that hybrids are the same way. Do they think then that the batteries on the hybrids and FCVs are such a small percentage of the overall price of the car that they just ignore the cost? I guess if they assume $100/kWh and the batteries are 1kWh or 1.5kWh then I guess that would make sense.
          Dave
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          "Do they think then that the batteries on the hybrids and FCVs are such a small percentage of the overall price of the car that they just ignore the cost?" I believe that they need to specify the size of the battery for the plug-ins just to differentiate them in the table. I am certain that they are aware that hybrids and FCEVs have battery packs, generally in the 1.5 kwh range.
        Jesse Gurr
        • 1 Day Ago
        @Letstakeawalk
        haha This is my favorite part: "For the baseline (i.e., medium) price of hydrogen, $3.50 per gge was used. This isslightly higher than the average price of hydrogen that would enable FCEVs to be competitive with gasoline HEVs"
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          Okay, thanks for the correction regarding what production volume targets. However, I DO believe that MUST hit the price "Target", or at least be fairly close (like Tesla would have priced the 40kwh S at $53k after incentives). And I think they will try to hit that target using every possible calculus, such as including federal tax credits and counting on the full 7 (Type V) ZEV credits... which will go away in MY 2018. I think they MUST hit their target, or they will actually fail. Why? Because FCVs face a MUCH different challenge and the climate of competition is VERY different than your comparison describes. Plugins failed in the late 90's. And they came back a decade later, stronger than ever. But they were (still are) only competing with Gasoline cars, a few decent hybrids, and one really good hybrid (Prius). EVs and PHEVs are really inevitable as long as gasoline costs are predicted to become more expensive over time. FCVs are coming on the scene (or trying to)... WAY TOO LATE. The benefits of FCVs being Zero-local-Emissions and independent from Foreign Oil... are the Nation's primary goal. But EVs and PHEVs really do fill those requirements. Yes, PHEVs are not 100% free of pollution and Oil... but they are already going to be cheaper than FCVs. And once again, yes, there are fleet niches that even those two cannot fill, and although NGVs have historically failed to make a dent in those sub markets... perhaps FCVs could do well.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          LOL! Correction: $0.11 is my utility's "Energy Saver" rate.
          JakeY
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          @Letstakeawalk It's not that they don't need to. It's that it'll cost them too much money and they'll never hit their price target. They are going to be squeezed on both ends (how to provide an attractive car for the target price).
          JakeY
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          "Still, I would understand if they don't hit their price targets - I don't think it would represent failure anymore than the failure of BEV makers to hit their initial price targets. It will of course take time to get production lines running smoothly." I agree that they don't necessarily have to hit price targets. They only have to hit volume targets (or close enough to sustain development). And whether they can do that without hitting the cost target is the big question. The Model S sells well despite a high price because it compares well to cars in its class and price tag (~$70k). That does not appear to be the case for the first crop of "$50k" hydrogen cars. You can take the ix35 for example. It's slower than the slowest equivalent gas model that sells for about $20k and doesn't differ significantly in terms of features (Model S has much greater cargo capacity and that large touchscreen). It'll be a tougher challenge to sell. I guessing similar sales to the RAV4 EV (similar $50k price/size/segment). I would not agree with your analogy using Tesla's $50k price target for the Model S because Tesla did actually hit that target by selling a couple hundred "40kWh" ones (just decided not to continue based on low demand not making the R&D costs worth it and their focus on targeting 25% gross margin on the Model S). The $50k target set for FCVs will obviously completely ignore R&D costs and gross margins (basically being able to make a FCV for $50k is already an accomplishment).
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          Don't forget, cost of the vehicle is also a consideration. Those FCVs that may (or may not) be available are targeting a price of $50k or less. That's a price point that Tesla failed to hit.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          Remember, an FCV gets 2-3x the efficiency of a comparative ICE. The Toyota FCHV-adv gets around 68.3 miles per kg, so that's a fuel cost of $0.05 per mile. The Nissan Leaf (according to Consumer Reports) runs about $0.035 per mile (at $0.11 per kWh nat. ave.) So, we have a big 5-passenger SUV with a range of more than 450 miles that costs very nearly the same to fuel as a Nissan Leaf.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          LTAW.... is your utiity's "Energy Saver" a true TOU (Time of Use) scheduled rate? Or some promotional terminology. Jesse, yes, I used to live in San Diego... Electricity is expensive there, even for off-peak. Gasoline is also very expensive there too. And you know what, Hydrogen will be very expensive there too. LTAW, what state are you in? No doubt we could quote microcosms all we like, the National Gasoline (reg) avg is $3.63/gal - http://fuelgaugereport.opisnet.com/index.asp the National Residential electricity rate is $0.1188 / kwh - http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_3 And just to quote one possible scenario: EVs are quite popular in Portland. 13.266¢/kWh for On-peak 4.422¢/kWh for Off-peak - http://www.portlandgeneral.com/residential/your_account/billing_payment/time_of_use/pricing.aspx Just to put it into perspective... although folks like to "Project" a widely variable range for Gasoline prices. Gasoline prices only vary about $1 regionally over the entire United States... so about 20% - 25% variability. But gasoline DOES have "volatility over Time". I would imagine that Hydrogen will be very similar. Electricity rates vary MUCH greater over location, but much less volatility over Time. Also, since electricity prices vary by Time of Day.... the variability is even greater. The variation is over 100% ($/kwh) in many cases, when utility companies have good TOU rates set up. EVs can take advantage of this. Hydrogen, no.
          Jesse Gurr
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          There is a vehicle that we can kinda compare the FCHV to and that is the Rav4 EV. According to the EPA website it uses $1.42 to drive 25 miles. That works out to 5.3 cents/mile. Granted it isn't 450 miles but you can recharge it anywhere, can't do that with H2. I don't know how much the FCHV costs but the Rav4 costs $50k, actually $40k because Toyota is discounting big time. The FCHV would have to cost the same or less and have a hydrogen station nearby to be competitive. It might be a while before that happens.
          JakeY
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          If I'm reading it right that's predicting 2035 prices, not that useful for looking at expected pricing in 2015.
          Jesse Gurr
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          Also, they predict the price of H2 in 2035 to be between $2.50 - $5.00 per gge. Interestingly enough they peg the upper limit of $5.00/gge to be about the current price of H2. Then again they also predict the cost of gasoline to be between $2.22 - $5.05 /gal. We should be so lucky.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          For further comparison, the DoE figures the fuel cost for a Tesla Model S is $1.14 to drive 25 miles. That would be about $0.045 per mile. Granted, it's a high-performance speed machine - so it's no surprise that future FCV sedans (not an SUV like the FCHV-adv) may be able to undercut its cost per mile. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32557
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          "Don't forget, cost of the vehicle is also a consideration. Those FCVs that may (or may not) be available are targeting a price of $50k or less. That's a price point that Tesla failed to hit." And that is a price point FCV automakers will also fail to hit. There will be excuses about why of course. Shall they use the old, "The demand just wasn't there" excuse? Will they blame the Oil/Energy companies for not building an "Infrastructure of sufficient density"? Or will they blame the Government for not having the Will to fully fund their projects? ---------------- Also, wasn't that $50k "Target" based on 500,000 FCVs per year (or was it 50,000)? Do you really think that even Hyundai would build that many in the first model year? No, they are promising 1,000. So they are NOT promising $50k FCV pricetag even in the first few years. And now you are deriding Tesla for not meeting their price target for the 40kwh Model S in the 2nd year of the entire line??? And you KNOW that FCV's $50k price target is going to be based on some hefty subsidies and/or the full tax credit. -------------------------------- The real question is... could an automaker's FCV product line SURVIVE several years of production ramp up to 50,000 units per year... at a price much higher, like $70k??? No, I don't think so. FCVs offer no benefit over PHEVs, which will likely sell for $35k by 2016 Consumers will laugh at the high price tag and refuse to buy FCVs because the H2 infrastructure will be slim. A gasoline range extender is MUCH cheaper now, and still cheaper in 2015. Consumers who need long range will simply get the cheapest operating costs by using electricity for most trips, and the abundant gasoline for the long journeys. Not pay $60k+ for a car that you cannot refuel at home, and must search for a station.
          archos
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          "So, we have a big 5-passenger SUV with a range of more than 450 miles that costs very nearly the same to fuel as a Nissan Leaf." You travel 450 miles in that thing and its going to stay put! The range anxiety is even worse in these pathetic hydrogen cars. You MUST have a hydrogen station nearby for it to be of any use. Nobody's going to be pay a premium to drive around a brick on a rope.
          JakeY
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          @Letstakeawalk "This ix35 FCV design (3rd Gen) has been around since 2011. You don't think they're planning even a minor update?" A minor update will not change the relative position of this car with the gasoline version (which will be updated in parallel too by 2015). If you go back to the 2007 Tucson FCEV (gen 2 version) the fuel cell was already 100kW, motor already 100kW, and battery power actually went down to 21kW instead of the 100kW supercapacitor. Only significant upgrade was to two 700 bar tanks to store 5.6kg of hydrogen. And for all three generations they did not offer any significant features over the gas version. I don't see that changing much for the 2015 version even if a minor update occurs. For the other ones. Honda's going to do an update on the Clarity. Daimler will have its F-cell. The FCV-R looks to be a hydrogen Prius (which actually might help them). The fuel cell + tanks + batteries are going to limit the packaging magic you can do to really improve cargo space. Most of them are going to be quite similar to the ICE versions (maybe even slightly worse like some hybrids). The challenge for the cheaper EVs right now is trying to sell a ~$15k gasoline equivalent for ~$30k (before tax credit; Tesla is actually targeting price parity but we'll ignore them for this exercise). The challenge that's looking to be set up for the FCVs is selling a $20-25k gasoline equivalent for ~$50k (perhaps even after tax credit). And they might not even be able to hit that price without significant volume (10s of 1000s, not just compliance car volumes).
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          " That does not appear to be the case for the first crop of "$50k" hydrogen cars. You can take the ix35 for example. " This ix35 FCV design (3rd Gen) has been around since 2011. You don't think they're planning even a minor update?
          Jesse Gurr
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          The EV electric plan in my area (Southern California Edison) is kin complicated a little. https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home/residential/rates/residential-rates/ If i have a separate meter for electric cars, It is 11 cents.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          So while Energy companies supplying the Hydrogen are "targeting" a medium price of $3.50 per GGE for hydrogen... when FCVs are on the road ... and those drivers are "LOCKED IN" to fueling only with the hydrogen companies (Shell, BP, etc) .... I would expect that price to head north. Meanwhile, today, (not 2015 and beyond). Folks are getting MUCH less than $0.11 per kwh because they charge during night-time/off-peak hours. *Also, if the power companies get greedy, solar is often an option* So when FCV are ready... Tell me, what price ($/kg) for Hydrogen will be competitive with a 2016, 115 MPGe, EV that charges 80% of the time on $0.06 per kwh off-peak???
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          $0.011 *is* my local utility's "energy-saver" discount rate. That's why I used a national average - some will be higher, and some will be lower. So, for some, it will make more financial sense (and green sense too, if the utility uses a lot of coal or natural gas) to own an FCV. Then there's the quick-charging premium. Granted, Tesla owners get a pass there, but a buyer looking at an FCV is likely interested in the long-range rating, so what will be the cost of quick-charging for an equivalent mileage. Don't try to tell me the quick-charger operations are going to be non-profit...
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          Actually, the big improvement for the 3rd Gen (2011) model was a dramatic increase in energy density to 1.65kW/l. They still get 100kW from the fuel cell, but the fuel cell stack is smaller and simpler to manufacture than the previous model. The Kia Borrego fuel cell stack produced 115kW in last-gen form (2010). It's easily conceivable that Hyundai would apply the same modular construction / overall simplifications to the larger stack that they applied to the smaller stack, reducing the size of the more powerful stack correspondingly. It's not like Hyundai can't make a more powerful stack than 100kW, they just don't really need to at this point in development.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Jesse Gurr
          "Also, wasn't that $50k "Target" based on 500,000 FCVs per year (or was it 50,000)? " No. You're confusing the cost projections for fuel cell stack costs. Which is currently $47/kW @ 500,000 units. https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/images/fuel_cell_cost.jpg "So they are NOT promising $50k FCV pricetag even in the first few years." "Promising" is such a loaded word - nobody's promising anything. OTOH, Hyundai is "targeting" a price under $50k: "The company has had hundreds of engineers working on fuel-cell technology for the past 14 years at the company’s R&D center in Mabuk, near Seoul. There are three major challenges for fuel-cell technology to overcome, said Ahn. "First, the cost is too high. Hyundai is targeting a $50,000 price tag (about half or so of the current cost) within a few years, due mostly to improved materials, better design, and automated production technology. “Our second challenge is to ensure the durability of the system for a lifetime of operation,” he continued. “And the third big issue is the lack of a refueling infrastructure. It’s a basic chicken-and-egg issue that in the long term governments must help to establish.” According to Hyundai research, about 27% of the cost of a current fuel-cell unit is the membrane electrode assembly (MEA), a stack of proton exchange membranes through which the charge-carriers pass. Eight percent of the cost goes to the gas diffusion layer (GDL), which is a core component that enables transport of gases, liquids, and electricity. A whopping 48% of the cost goes to the bipolar plates that connect fuel cells. Another 7% goes to the gasket, and 7% pays for the so-called balance of systems. Within several years, according to company forecasts, the MEA will account for a full 55% of the total cost because the costs of the other technologies will fall significantly--—especially the plates and gaskets. Satisfactory durability of catalyst and membrane, however, depends on finding new materials and running at optimal operating conditions. Recycling platinum may help. Smart, cost-conscious design and production improvements should get them to their goals, Ahn believes. The national platform for early market introduction of fuel-cell technology will be the Ulsan region, Korea’s industrial mecca and home to Hyundai-Kia. The region has many industrial plants and chemical processing complexes that should provide ready supplies of natural gas, and so “there’s lots of cheap hydrogen as well,” said Ahn." http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11518/ Still, I would understand if they don't hit their price targets - I don't think it would represent failure anymore than the failure of BEV makers to hit their initial price targets. It will of course take time to get production lines running smoothly.
      paulwesterberg
      • 1 Year Ago
      What is the retail cost of 1kg of hydrogen fuel at a station like this? (including amortization of installation costs, electricity to produce fuel and profit margin)
        Dave
        • 1 Day Ago
        @paulwesterberg
        http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review12/an020_melaina_2012_o.pdf
        2 wheeled menace
        • 1 Day Ago
        @paulwesterberg
        Nobody knows. The hydrogen stations that exist are highly subsidized with your tax money and the real cost has yet to be discovered. My guess is that it will be priced in between natural gas and gasoline. Coincidentally, natural gas is a lot cheaper than gasoline, but nobody is snatching up CNG cars at a $8k premium. I don't know how hydrogen supporters think that people are going to snatch up hydrogen cars at a $30k premium.
        archos
        • 1 Day Ago
        @paulwesterberg
        We're American. Nobody even knows what a kg is! The only thing we weigh in grams is our weed!
          paulwesterberg
          • 1 Day Ago
          @archos
          TIL: Pot smokers are the most highly advanced members of American society. For those that don't smoke pot: 1kg of hydrogen has about the same amount of energy as 1 gallon of gas.
        Jesse Gurr
        • 1 Day Ago
        @paulwesterberg
        @PW Go to slide #4 https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009-ALT-1/documents/2009-09-29_workshop/presentations/Vision_industries_presentation.ppt&sa=U&ei=ZzjFUNDbKMiaiQeIiYHIDA&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFoJLFAlred161K4Ina6CgrmxgH3A
      methos1999
      • 1 Year Ago
      Very misleading to say the fueling station is "was built in just 48 hours". What Sebastian should be saying is "on site installation took only 48 hours". Clearly the majority of the work took place at the factory and was simply put onto a truck - how long does it really take to build one. And of more interest - how much does it cost? Elon Musk at the Tesla shareholder meeting mentioned the Supercharger stations with solar cost roughly $300k.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Day Ago
        @methos1999
        How long it takes to build at the factory is really irrelevant. The point is, it can be trucked to pretty much anywhere, connected to utilities (water and power) and be up and running very quickly. This means that hydrogen infrastructure can grow speedily in response to demand - starting small, and then building larger stations as demand grows. " Elon Musk at the Tesla shareholder meeting mentioned the Supercharger stations with solar cost roughly $300k." Again, the total cost of the systems can't be compared directly. You should try to figure the cost per vehicle served per hour. Superchargers are nice, but the amount of time a car spends at one reduces the overall number of vehicles that can be served by the station in a given period. It only takes ~5 minutes for a complete refill at a hydrogen station.
      Zapbrannigan
      • 1 Year Ago
      Huge waste of shareholder and taxpayer money, and a pointless sideshow which people stopped watching back in 2009. H2's problem is battery electric has already beaten it to market, even big oil wont be able to buy this one off.
      CoolWaters
      • 1 Year Ago
      If this thing ever takes off, you can predict spectacular blowup video to slow the conversion down. So, yes this is the Perfect "Future" Fuel for the Oil Industry. Hydrogen: Low Energy Ignition. Perfect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety
      stumpy
      • 1 Year Ago
      Oil companies are seeing an enthusiastic move away from the pump with the adoption of EVs. They still want to sell you something. Hydrogen is their one last "green" fuel they can still sell you. However, with battery and supercapacitor technology rapidly improving, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are about to look mighty obsolete if they ever do make it to the market place. Everyone who is talking up Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles acts like they don't have a limited range because you can just fill up with hydrogen in two minutes. But where are these hydrogen stations?! How do you get the Hydrogen to the fueling station and / or how is the hydrogen generated on site? At least with EVs you can find electricity pretty much everywhere, including your own house. You'll never be stranded in an EV the same way you'd be stranded in a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle. By the time hydrogen infrastructure is in place, battery technology will be so advanced that people will look at hydrogen like "what is the point?" At least for personal vehicles. Hydrogen would likely be better utilized by Big Rigs and Busses. But in 25 years, personal vehicles will all be Battery Electrics.
        Letstakeawalk
        • 1 Day Ago
        @stumpy
        "Hydrogen would likely be better utilized by Big Rigs and Busses." Agreed. Large, highway travelling vehicles are going to need something that keeps them moving, and HFCs really fit the bill for those larger vehicles. Of course, it still requires a comprehensive network of hydrogen refueling stations set up along well-traveled corridors... ...where they will also be conveniently accessible to passenger automobiles.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          If batteries get lighter and smaller, at the same price, the older types will naturally become cheaper. That is simple economics. We are talking about two sides to the same coin here.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          With PHEVs... which already have a head start at being cheaper than FCVs... why would a passenger car driver risk trying to find the "Few and Far between" truck stops selling H2 to limited Fleet users... when they could pay maybe 10% more for gasoline? Your assertion reminds me of Biodiesel distribution promises. Many fleets use Biodiesel blends, and the idea was that personal diesel vehicles would one day be able to fuel up at the same stations that fleets use to get biodiesel. (This was when Biodiesel was about $1/gal cheaper than Dyno Diesel because of a gov't subsidy). But it turned out that the Fleets hogged all of their fuel supply and did not share with individuals.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          "If batteries get lighter and smaller, at the same price, the older types will naturally become cheaper. You're saying that because one group of batteries gets lighter and smaller, the other group will get cheaper. I don't particularly agree with that logic, but it's beside my point anyway. Batteries need to get smaller, lighter, *and* cheaper. The same batteries, not two different groups.
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          Batteries don't just need to get cheaper, they need to get lighter and smaller.
          archos
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          As batteries get cheaper hydrogen will lose out on this utility also.
          Joeviocoe
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          No, I'm talking about economics 101. If light and smaller batteries are offered, with all else being equal, the heavier larger batteries will have to go down in price, our be discontinued all together. But since the is a market for stationary energy storage, they will simple go to that market.
          chicl
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Letstakeawalk
          No, I'm talking about economics 101. If light and smaller batteries are offered, with all else being equal, the heavier larger batteries will have to go down in price, our be discontinued all together. But since the is a market for stationary energy storage, they will simple go to that market.
        Rob K
        • 1 Day Ago
        @stumpy
        In a nutshell: Battery = VHS H2 = Betamax
          Letstakeawalk
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Rob K
          " and are more expensive to fuel per mile than all electrics..." I've already demonstrated that an FCV that gets more than 70 miles per kg is *less* expensive to fuel per mile than a Model S, based on the national average of $0.11 cents per kWh.
          2 wheeled menace
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Rob K
          I'm not sure where the betamax characteristic comes in. Hydrogen cars are going to be slower, more expensive, have more parts to break, and are more expensive to fuel per mile than all electrics... maybe it's that they can go further, that's the benefit. But they will quickly be forgotten when battery technology kicks up and the market starts providing affordable EV cars with a 200+ mile ranges. Nobody will want to pay extra for the hydrogen car or it's fuel.
          DaveMart
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Rob K
          Personally I use DVDs, when I am not using a USB. Poor analogy, and one based on zero analysis.
          DaveMart
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Rob K
          Without any analysis to back it up, why is your opinion of any interest to anyone else? There have been lots of different recording technologies, and there are now a various energy storage options. We are going to need them all. They all have a part to play. You having a hobby horse about batteries is your affair.
          Rob K
          • 1 Day Ago
          @Rob K
          First off, it wasn't an analysis, It was stumpy's analysis in a nutshll. Learn how to read. Secondly, it's a great analogy. Not my fault you were only born yesterday and don't understand it.
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