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nissan chademo sign ny auto showDespite growing competition from the SAE Combo Charger Nissan remains committed to CHAdeMO. But why turn the disagreement into a fight?

At the New York Auto Show this week, the Nissan booth displayed a sign that promoted the first major DC Fast Charging standard and says, "Nissan is committed to creating an industry standard for charging, and to finding a charging standard that suits all EV owners." Given that there are more than 32,000 Leafs with CHAdeMO on the roads today, the company can't exactly change horses now. Turns out, Nissan doesn't want to change, said Brendan Jones, director of Nissan Leaf marketing and sales strategy for Nissan North America.

Jones told AutoblogGreen, "We are committed to continuing to deploy [CHAdeMO]. We are also committed to making sure there is an open dialogue and communication on this with the other OEMS, with the Combo standard, etc. The dialogue is shifting, in my opinion, to something much more positive. Everyone agrees we have to build the infrastructure. The topography, the unit itself, we can continue to debate."

"The dialogue is shifting, in my opinion, to something much more positive. Everyone agrees we have to build the infrastructure."

"The industry is rallying around, saying, look, we just need to build the infrastructure," he continued. "In-ground is the most expensive, on the top is becoming the least expensive." What that means is that laying cable and deciding where to put future fast chargers is the part that costs a lot of money. When buying in bulk, Nissan's outdoor 50-kW DC Fast Charger can be had for around $15,500 (that $10,000 headline number from a year and a half ago is for the indoor version). While that may seem big compared to a $2,000 Level 2 home charger, it's actually the least expensive unit on the market, Jones said. Others can range from around $25,000 to $40,000.

Is Nissan considering putting the SAE Combo charger into the Leaf. "Not at this time."

So, everyone agrees that putting in the wires is a good thing. Even with the connector differences, there is some agreement that the above-ground challenges can be worked out. Jones did not come out against SAE in any way, saying that dual-plug stations – Gridbot proposed one option – could be the answer, especially when charge providers install the lower power 25-kW fast charger infrastructure. Some have suggested the SAE/CHAdeMO conflict will be a big problem, but that was not the message in New York. Earlier this year, the CHAdeMO Association said it was "disappointed" that CHAdeMO is not part of the European standard. Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi support CHAdeMO while US and European automakers like BMW, General Motors, Ford and Volkswagen support the so-called SAE Combo standard. When we asked if there are any discussions about putting the SAE Combo charger into the Leaf, Jones said, "Not at this time."

There are around 200 CHAdeMO fast chargers in the US right now, and more are coming. Jones pointed to the NRG settlement in California as one example of the industry moving forward to put wires in the ground. Earlier this year, Nissan also announced it would work with eVgo to increase the number of DC Fast Chargers in the US to 500 over the next 18 months. Aside from the Leaf, the CHAdeMO connector is also available on the Mitsubishi i. The Chevy Spark EV will be the first vehicle with the SAE Combo connector.


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 86 Comments
      Rotation
      • 2 Years Ago
      Go ahead and build whatever you want, Nissan. But everyone else should build SAE or build a dual-standard unit. The hard part really is getting that much power to the charger, changing over the charge probe and some logic isn't much compared to that. So any DC quick charge install is a potential SAE or dual-standard unit even if it has to be changed over later.
        Brian
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Rotation
        Not really seeing vast numbers of DC charge stations being changed to support SAE-Combo plugs. More likely scenario is owners of EVs using the combo plug will have to create/carry a DC adapter. Combo EV owner will always have option of using to existing Level 2, or Type 2 EVSE networks depending on location. There is no economical incentive for existing EVSE (EV Support Equipment) power hosts to provide SAE-Combo cables. Most host networks today charge by the hour & will make more money from slower half of combo plug which they already provide. If SAE is not deploying SAE-Combo equipped charge networks, the auto manufactures backing SAE will have to step up, if they want to charge up.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          That's interesting about California's law. I don't know how many chargers are actually paid for by the state. Honestly, I hope all CHAdeMO chargers are converted to dual-standard (even though I means I'd have a harder time getting to use one!), but I don't see it as a fait accompli as you do. I'd love to see Cali have many DC fast chargers in the Bay Area. Right now there are about 10-15, which really isn't much given the population of the area and the large number of EVs here.
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          @Rotation There's nothing the state can do about private networks and chargers that aren't funded at least in part by California, but they have clearly demonstrated they will support SAE efforts by adding a provision in the NRG charger settlement for SAE DC support well before the standard was ready. That's already a huge step since that guarantees 200 chargers will be SAE DC ready as part of the EVGo network. Hopefully this support will spread to other parts of the EVGo network (existing chargers might not get converted, but I hope future chargers will support both). Also I wanted to add that almost all of the existing CHAdeMO chargers in California right now are Ecotality/Blink chargers. Those chargers already have two connectors and supposedly it'll be relatively easy to swap one of those for an SAE DC connector (at least according to Blink reps). There are already plans to make this happen (they are finishing up engineering work and looking for CA or DOE funding to support the connector swap, see document below). That leaves 350Green and as I posted, the new owners have at least voiced support of SAE DC, even though AFAIK no concrete steps have been announced to make it happen. But even without 350Green support, I can see SAE DC capable stations in California not being a huge problem (EVGo and Blink will be the two bigger players). So far there are 4 SAE DC chargers on the ground (2 GM, 1 BMW, 1 VW). It seems like production volume of capable cars will ride mostly on the i3 (Spark EV will only be about 2k per year, eGolf seems to be a compliance vehicle). http://www.evcollaborative.org/sites/all/themes/pev/files/PEV%20Collaborative%20DC%20Combo%20Update%20for%2013Mar2013_final2.pdf I think the largest amount of CHAdeMO-only stations will be the ones in Nissan dealers. I don't see those being converted to support SAE DC unless Nissan makes it a policy to support both (which they obviously don't want to from this article).
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          "Not really seeing vast numbers of DC charge stations being changed to support SAE-Combo plugs" California has a policy that DC chargers must support SAE DC at minimum (their support of SAE efforts have a long history even back in the AVCON days). So any publicly funded CHAdeMO station in California will either be converted to add SAE DC support or will have dual plugs at the start. That is why California has not gone full bore into building a DC network yet (unlike Oregon). As part of the NRG settlement, 200 dual plug stations will be installed in the EVGo network. NRG had the option of installing CHAdeMO stations first and adding SAE DC capability later, or to wait for dual plug stations to become available. They obviously chose the latter. Car Charging Group, which recently purchased 350Green (another major CHAdeMO charging network), also said they will support SAE Combo. http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/06/car-charging-group-tips-its-hat-to-sae-combo-as-debate-continues/ All the major American charger manufacturers said they will back both standards and will not pick sides (they will make dual plug chargers). So it seems the situation will be that practically all public chargers will have both plugs and there will be no need for an adapter. This makes sense given the connector is only a fraction of the cost of a DC charger.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          Brian, there are already about 10 CHAdeMO chargers in my area. I was referring to what happens to those when talking about converting. I don't think combo owners will carry a DC adapter, they will either make do with AC or find an SAE DC charger. I do agree that for existing AC L2 chargers there really is no reason to add to the connector. You won't see DC chargers pop up like ATMs as you see happening with AC chargers right now. I think the idea of going slower to make more because it's by the hour is morally bankrupt and customers will realize it. They like charging faster, so they'll just avoid the slower chargers especially if it raises their costs. So if you keep your charger slow, you'll just find it makes even less money due to no demand.
      stumpy
      • 2 Years Ago
      since J1772 is the basis for SAE combo... why can't nissan have both the CHAdeMO AND the SAE combo? Or does that make too much sense?
        Brian
        • 2 Years Ago
        @stumpy
        Nissan's LEAF has both J1772 AC & CHAdeMO DC. AC charging needs to be routed & converted to DC before reaching the battery. DC is pretty much fed directly to the battery controlled by some electronics that slow charge rate as the batteries charge so they will not overheat, or be damaged. Simple answer is AC can't just swapped with DC charging. To use the DC part of the Combo, the DC will need to be fed thru the path used by CHAdeMO. Not just charge power, but signals that manage charging as well. Swapping the LEAFs J1772 for SAE-Combo would require re-engineering power electronics to not only to handle Combo protocol, but additional switches/relays to switch between Level 2 AC & Level 1 DC options. Is technically possible, but a choice for Nisssan to decide if it will make the investment to customize hardware to a specific market. (today 54,000 LEAFs are located: ~43% Japan, ~43% N/A, & ~14% other countries)
        Brian
        • 2 Years Ago
        @stumpy
        Basis for SAE-Combo in US is SAE-J1772-2009, but in EU the basis for SAE-Combo is the Type 2 Menneks connector. They both look like an identical FranklinPlugs, but pin-outs between the two differ (i.e are not makable). Type 2 & J1772 share similar data communication protocols, but CHAdeMO uses CANBUS (common between a vehicles subsystems), but not wired to non-CHAdeMO connectors. Type 2 & CHAdeMO can handle 480V DC @ 80A, J1772 can not. Beyond the plug, data comm, voltage type & current need match. Many combinations, no real wrong answer, but many better choices including software and connection experience.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          Whoa, they do not look identical. I can't believe I took you seriously up above, you don't actually know what you are talking about. Type 2 and J1772 don't share similar data comms protocols, they share identical data comms protocols. And it's an awful protocol. Type 2 is not rated 80A for AC or DC charging. It's not rated for 480V AC (not sure about DC). SAE combo charging uses ethernet over power (GreenPlug), so the crummy comms of J1772 and type 2 isn't a huge issue. I do feel that CANBUS is a much better idea than the awful J1772 comms, but IP over ethernet over power is probably a better idea than both.
          Brian
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          @Rotation Was saying that while US SAE J1772-Combo and Type 2-Combo may look similar from a-far, or to a non-user they are very different. 1/2 the plugs are the same, the other half is not. Viewing from back, or side when pins are not visible, they both tend to look like FranklinPlugs. A picture for those not familiar with Combo plug pin-outs: http://is.gd/BoKUaP CHAdeMO plug is no more elegant than the Combo pair (The CANBUS-based protocol is OK, and 10-50 kW power is appreciated, but the plug less so) It's almost like these plugs have been *steam-punked* by auto manufactures?
        Giza Plateau
        • 2 Years Ago
        @stumpy
        Nissan leaf port is a barn door so there is actually room for having it all but EVs shouldn't have to have such a large port to accommodate such stupidity. Tesla motors has demonstrated you can do all that in a much smaller plug. And it could easily be smaller still
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Giza Plateau
          It depends on what you mean by a network. Estonia built 165 DC fast chargers. That network will need relatively minor upgrades to go to SAE. But 165 DC fast chargers just isn't many chargers. It's not a big enough network. Even with 20 minute fast chargers, people don't want to stop in the middle of their trip to "tank up" for 20 minutes. It's going to be important to have a lot more chargers in Estonia than these 165, and most of those will be AC. The problem with CHAdeMO charging at 50kW is it isn't "super" charging. You drive about 60 miles (60 minutes) and then have to charge for 30 minutes. It's fast, but that's not really super, who would make long trips that way? I guess it's kind of academic anyway, because the country is so small. A Tesla Model S could drive right through it without a stop at all.
          Brian
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Giza Plateau
          The difference between CHAdeMO and Tesla plug is the CHAdeMO plug has a bunch of additional analog protocol communication lines. Besides +/–, Tesla only uses two digital signals pins for protocol communications. Another advantage (besides size/weight) of digital over analog plug is it is future-proof (only needs software upgrade, not hardware upgrades) SAE-Combo is similar to Tesla plug in using +/– & a pair of digital signal liners; however +/– in SAE-Combo are oversized connector from 1950's aircraft ground-support plug (design to be driven over) & borrowing the two signal pins of either J1772 (in US) & Type2 (in EU) having different pin outs. Hats-off to Tesla engineering for proving adapter cables to most other existing plugs (includes most 200/240V cloths dryer & stove/oven plugs). The Roadster owner basically used RV camping sites for early long distance trips. Tesla is currently engineering a CHAdeMO adapter for use in Japan** where ~2000 CHAdeMO charge stations already exist. To date have seen nothing from SAE on adapter cables. Adapter cables between J1772 (Level 2) & Type 2 are just a cable with different plugs on each end. (Type 2 can support some DC options, but J1772 is AC only) This is part of why some chargers in EU lack a cable (helps lower price, but EV driver can be assured by having a cable adapter that matches their needs). **Japan & Estonia were wise in building networks with charging stations able to supply 20-50 kW power vs. USA where most charge infrastructure is Level 2 AC (2-7 kW) chargers. In Japan & Estonia they can change plugs, or use adapters for future standard plugs; but in USA (and many other countries) EVSE networks will require much more expensive charger upgrades. Essentially Japan & Estonia have standardized on building a super-charger network for EVs.
          stumpy
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Giza Plateau
          lol exactly... so much room for both behind that "barn door"
      mustang_sallad
      • 2 Years Ago
      Internet commenters can spout off their expertise on why they think the standard should go one way or the other, but the fact is that the majority of automakers have looked at this in great detail and have decided to go with SAE. Nissan will get in line eventually, but it doesn't make sense to change yet for obvious reasons (there are no SAE DCFC stations) and why would they ever announce that they're changing so far in advance of actually changing? They need to show full support and encourage people to keep buying their CHAdeMO cars. And frankly, I think that's the right thing to do. The existing DCFC stations aren't going to simply disappear overnight and leave everyone stranded. Some might be converted, but mostly SAE DCFC stations will probably simply be added to the network and we'll all rely on our smart phones to find the nearest one that matches the car. Definitely not ideal. But hey, was anybody willing to pay a bunch of engineers to establish a standard that everybody could agree on years before there was even a market for EVs? Apparently not!
        Brian
        • 2 Years Ago
        @mustang_sallad
        The internet commenters are buyers & owners of electric vehicles. 32,000 iMiEVs, 24,000 Volt, 54,000 LEAFs, 2,400 Tesla Roadsters, 5-6,000 Tesla Model S, 8000 Twizzy, etc. … plus add 16,000 Volt, 22,000 LEAF, & 18,000 Model S before 2014. (That's 175000-200000 EVs without an single SAE-Combo port) Not one of these EVs uses either the J1772-SAE-Combo (NA), nor Type2-MENEKS-Combo (EU) plug. All of these EVs have native J1772-2009 plug or optional adapter. The J1772 Standard allows up to 19.2 kW charge rate although most on-board use lower watts. The SAE-J1772-Combo is currently only spec'd at Level 1 DC (~20 kW), vs 48 kW for CHAdeMO, 40 kW Tesla Roadster, or 90-120 kW Model S. If you want to argue for a more capable universal standard plug, take a look at EU's Type 2. It shares protocol with J1772 (handles DC 500V max, AC both single & 3-phase). Additionally Type 2 is what Tesla will use for there Super Charger Stations in EU starting with Norway in July. PS: For those interested in the history of the SAE-J1772 standard; take a look at the SAE-J1772-2001 version. This 1st version from 2001 was a 4-pin in-line square connector unlike today's round J1772 plug! It was use by Honda EV1 & Ford EV Ranger. A group of automakers can decide whatever plug (or two) they'll add to a vehicle, but buyers will make the *real* decision as to which vehicles & plugs get used! Like the 36-pin jumbo parallel connectors were displaced by smaller, more reliable & universal USB connectors, so to we'll move to better EVSE (EV Support Equipment). 20-50 kW charging will become more common, displacing the 3-7 kW that is associated with Level 2 today.
          Brian
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          @Rotation Got the details from: SAE-Combo charge plug table http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/chargingtable10-3-2012.pdf The SAE-Combo comes in two versions: 1) DC-Level 1: SAE is spec'd 40 kW max. (typically used with a 20 kW charger) & 2) DC-Level 2: SAE is spec'd 100 kW max. (used with a 45 kW charger) Both power levels are similar to those used by CHAdeMO charge stations. The Tesla Roadster was included in initial comment to demonstrate *plug adapters* being used with existing deployed infrastructure. Roadster while using AC also demonstrates *high power charging* which is an important consideration, as it translates to charging Range Miles Per Hour (RMPH). 20 kW charging provides 60-80 RMPH vs 3 kW (basic Level 2 AC) providing 9-12 RMPH. (cars having 6 kW Level 2 double their charge RMPH) 50 kW charger can provide 150-200 RMPH, but only for larger batteries that can sustain a high capacity charge. With AC, the RMPH is either the smaller kW rating of the vehicle charger or the power supplied. With DC, the charger is off-board the vehicle, so the kW charge rate is only limited by the charge capacity of the battery (higher with larger batteries). Off-board DC chargers can be big (power & weight), but cost more as they need more dedicated infrastructure.
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          @Brian 2) DC-Level 2: SAE is spec'd 100 kW max. (used with a 45 kW charger) "Both power levels are similar to those used by CHAdeMO charge stations." 100kW is twice the power of CHAdeMO stations (50 kW). The "used with a 45kW" you quote just gives a rough charging time, but the SAE standard is capable of higher power primarily because of its 200A limit (vs 125A for CHAdeMO connectors). It's on the order of Tesla's Superchargers. As for your calculations about EVs don't have a CHAdeMO port either nor any DC charging capability, so I'm not sure what's your point. And first mover advantage means nothing in format wars. Betamax and HD-DVD both had first mover advantage, but still lost in the end. All that matters is which one's better and which one has more industry backing. Right now it's looking like the Combo plug.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Brian
          That SAE-J1772 inline connector you refer to is usually called an AVCON connector. If people want to look at it, you can search for that easier, it's on Wikipedia. I don't know where you get the idea J1772-combo is only specced to 20kW right now. That's DC charging over the main connector (J1772), the charging over the extra conductors on the side (Combo2) is more rapid, although of course no one has built one of those yet. Also, I'm not sure why you list the Tesla Roadster in this at all, it doesn't support DC charging, only AC. Europe's connector is only listed to 400V, not 500V, and with single/split phase it doesn't provide as much power as J1772, so it's not really practical for use in countries that don't run 3-phase to houses. It's actually less capable in those uses. I have no idea why you think Tesla is going to use any kind of standard in Europe for their supercharging. Tesla uses their own proprietary connector and protocol. Tesla's on-car connector does not support 3-phase, so even a Mennekes combo to Tesla adapter is not going to work super well. The "before combo port" period you speak of is going to end soon, the Chevy Spark supports SAE DC charging. It may only support it over the J1772 connector (combo, not combo2), but it'll support it. So I think your pre-combo era and counts is exaggerated.
      Levine Levine
      • 2 Years Ago
      The Pissing contest continues among the money-makers.
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Levine Levine
        The problem is that they are all money-losers in this arena and this stupid war makes things even more difficult.
      Giza Plateau
      • 2 Years Ago
      Unfortunate with multiple standards. CHAdeMO is in part to blame however. Their plug is ridiculously oversized and they have unbelievably stupidly decided to keep the standard secret, even though they stated long ago that they would finally make it public. That's TEPCO level stupid. And fittingly TEPCO is behind the standard.. Those who brought you Fukushima. The combo plugs aren't exactly genius either. Incompetent vs incompetent are supposed to save the world. Le monde est à pleurer All the mindlessness aside of these bumbling fools, it should be possible to make adapters so everyone can use every standard. It is however messy to have these hanging outside the car while unattended. And not only that but it seems there isn't even clarity on whether the charge points have cables or you have to bring your own. I have seen both. So that's a cockup in itself. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... And while 15500$ might be the cheapest CHAdeMO around it is still 14500$ too much. Sigh sigh sigh Only a couple of companies in the world make the plug. I inquired a price for just the plug and it was 2000$... Soooo much facepalming
        Rotation
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Giza Plateau
        A CHAdeMO charger probably has $500 of wire and magnetics (transformers) in it and you think it should be $1000 all-in?
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Yes, you're the one failing to understand here. There are parts in there that cost a lot. They must be designed, tested and produced. They must be sold at a profit. They must be warranteed. You cannot do all this for something of the lik of a CHAdeMO charger for $1000. I am aware of the price of a Versa, but I also know that is a loss leader or close to it for Nissan. They figure you give is also 12x the price of what you suggest this charger should cost. You just have no clue about how much things cost to design, make and sell. You show the same foolishness with your comments about electric car design and pricing. This is a 50kW device. It's not going to be cheap even if some of the components inside are.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Giza: There is a lot more to a CHAdeMO charger than just a switching transistor. The power doesn't magically teleport to the source of the transistor nor does it teleport from the drain to the car. There are real things in there that cost real money, a lot more than just a switching transistor. It's 3-phase AC in and regulated (to match the current pack voltage) DC out. You are vastly oversimplifying things. Tell me you at least realize there has to be a substantial wire-wound inductor in there to dump the charge into in the regulator? Brian: Stacking for voltage is far from easy. If the impedance isn't exactly the same on all the outputs the voltage will divide improperly and blow up. I don't think you really mean stacking anyway as a Tesla in-car charger produces enough voltage to charge a Tesla pack alreay, it's the amps that are hard to produce. And that doesn't mean stack, that means putting them in parallel (ganged). This isn't easy either, but easier than stacking.
          Brian
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Cost is in high-voltage high-capacity capacitors and switching electronics to convert 480V AC to DC. The higher the Volts & Amps, the higher the cost. Smaller amp AC-DC converters can be used and stacked if they don't have a common grounded connection to lower costs. This was Tesla's approach with the super charger (& also used by a coupe CHAdeMO charger manufactures). A $500-$1000 charger only possible if going AC-AC, or DC-DC for a wall-vehicle connection where the costs are essentially plugs and wire.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Spec, I make many correct observations about this world but I can't fix everything single handed so your premise is less than intelligent. And you only say it to remain obtuse so you don't have to think. Chademo is only 125A. That's not all that difficult to do. Not that any of you have even the faintest idea of how much it takes, you are just mindless status quo sheep who assume 'society' is right and the single voice of a genius is folly. You are barking dogs. Mindless. Defenders against the mail man. Dare to think. Who told you it's a bad thing.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Do you know what the profit margin on cars is? about 10% Do you know what a 60A 600V IGBT costs? about 2$ A CHAdeMO charger is a 125A device. Yes it should cost 1000$. If the cable is long it could cost a little more to accommodate the copper.
          raktmn
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Rotation, it has been reported that Tesla builds their superchargers by taking about 10 or so of their inboard car chargers, and stacking them to build their superchargers. They save money by using the exact same units in both their cars and their supercharger stations. That's what he means by stacked.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Brian, you're saying an extension cord is all you can get for 500-1000$? Ironically that's defacto true because that's what you get robbed for a J1772 wall mounted extension cord but that's certainly not what it should and could cost. Brian, you don't know anything about cost of anything so let's not pretend you do. Try to google for pictures of what's inside a J1772 home unit.
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Dan, if you can build one for $1000 . . THEN DO IT! You could sell it for $11,000 and make $10K of profit on each one. Why is all that easy money just staring you in the face and you do nothing about it? Obvious . . . the fact is that you can't do it. So PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          Rotation, yes I know a little about switch mode power supply design. I'm not the one failing to understand here. Do you really think I would suggest the price should be 1000$ if a 2$ transistor would do it? It was of course just an example of pricing of one of the relevant components. It was to get people to think about the contrast between 2$ and the 15500$ that douche Nissan wants for a charger. A Nissan Versa Sedan costs 11900$ brand new. Think a little, people. Dare to question authority. Don't be so mindlessly sheepish.
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Giza Plateau
        Really? You think all the electronics in fast charger can be built for $1000? I bet you believe in aliens too.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          Yes it could be sold with profit at 1000$ a pop. I don't believe in aliens, I know for a fact that they are real.
      Electron
      • 2 Years Ago
      Great, another Betamax-VHS battle. Meanwhile Tesla is introducing Blu-ray, so yawn....
      Joeviocoe
      • 2 Years Ago
      I don't know about you guys... but I am loving this debate. 5 years ago... we were arguing whether or not there would even be any mass market EVs on the road by now,... let alone public charging infrastructure development.
        Giza Plateau
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Joeviocoe
        How long do you live that you can afford token improvements in 5 year intervals. There is such a thing as too slow.
      Paul
      • 2 Years Ago
      > Given that there are more than 32,000 Leafs with CHAdeMO on the roads today Actually only the SL models are CHAdeMO equiped. This means that the number of vehicles on the road is probably closer to 10k. There are no CHAdeMO in my state currently so I opted to get an SV rather than an SL. I like the SAE design as it allows a fast charging port for DC current which is backwards compatible with existing J1772 Level 2 chargers.
        Giza Plateau
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Paul
        Actually Paul, there is a world outside USA
          paulwesterberg
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Giza Plateau
          And people in the rest of the world generally prefer cheaper vehicles which means the number of CHAdeMO leafs is much smaller than the total number of leafs sold worldwide.
          Giza Plateau
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Giza Plateau
          PW, I believe the 32k is chademo capable. total leaf sales is over 50k
        Dave R
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Paul
        I think that the 32k number is worldwide, not USA... For 2013, the QC port is standard on the SL, but is an option for both the cheaper SV and S models. The SAE combo receptacle on the car is backwards compatible with the existing J1772 EVSEs (charging stations). The charger for J1772 L2 is actually on the car.
      Spec
      • 2 Years Ago
      This standards war is so stupid. Resolve it you idiots. Damn circular firing squad. Nissan should cave since they have more to lose. But nope . . . they are going to drag their feet and delay the entire industry out of stubborn pride.
        JakeY
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Spec
        It's not just pride though. There is no competition for CHAdeMO in Japan, so that is the "de facto" standard there. That's why they have invested a lot of money into CHAdeMO (both connectors and chargers). They obviously want to use the same connector in all regions. I also would rather have them move to SAE, but I can see why they don't want to.
          Brian
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          @JayY If chargers supported the max. 19.2 kW of the existing J1772 Level 2 AC spec, they'd be capable of delivering almost as much power as the 20 kW SAE-Combo Level 1 DC chargers. Level 2 DC can deliver 50 kW, but requires a higher cost electrical drop plus a special transformer. It will be interesting if the California installations will support Level 2 DC, or just Level 1 DC? Personally think 20 kW is good enough (as is cheaper to deploy more stations) & upgrading sites where demand warrants need for 50 kW charger. (20 kW units could be redeployed to expand the network). Charge time between 20 & 50 kW charger only takes ~25% longer for 25 kWh battery with charge rate dropping as the battery fills up. Happy either way, as long as more xx kW stations become online.
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          Oh I agree. They should keep Chademo in japan. But not here where there are too many align with SAE combo.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          I don't know if I see 20kW L2 AC taking off for a while. When only a few cars can use it (only Model S can, and not even all those), few will spend the extra cost required to put in enough electrical service to run a 100A wire to charging stations. And the problem gets worse when you put in more chargers. One 20kW circuit is expensive. Putting in 8 of them (there are multiple 8 charger stands near me) is quite a lot of extra expense over just putting in 8 6.6kW chargers. I think 10kW AC will be the next step and quite popular in cars and I don't think even that will become de rigeur for public chargers in the next year.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          Mustang: I don't think the protocol referred to in that interview is the SAE DC combo protocol, but the existing J1772 protocol.
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          @Brian The numbers should really be 19.2kW (240V@80A) for AC level 2 vs 36kW(450V@80A) for SAE DC level 1. I don't know why you use the 20kW number as the peak number for DC. That number is just there to give a conservative average charging time estimate. My opinion is a 36kW charger is worthless unless the charger cost is proportionally cheaper than the 50kW version (I doubt it since there's a lot of overhead costs that both would share). My prediction is that there will mostly be 50kW dual type stations (supports both CHAdeMO and SAE DC). There will be some 100kW SAE DC stations. Those stations may have extra connectors to split the power like the Tesla Superchargers do. So the 50kW stations can charge up to two SAE DC level cars at once, 100kW stations can charge up to 4 cars at once. I highly doubt there will be many 36kW stations.
          Dave R
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          @Spec - there may be many manufacturers "aligned" with SAE, but there are only 2 QC standards on the road in any volume right now (LEAF/iMiEV for CHAdeMO and Model S for Tesla Supercharger) and that doesn't appear to be changing any time soon. There is only one combo-plug EV that will be in production any time soon - the Chevy Spark. But it's diminutive size pretty much guarantees that it will be a flop on the market unless they are able to price it significantly under the Nissan LEAF. Nissan is pushing hard right now to get a lot of CHAdeMO stations installed at dealerships - 500 more of them over the next year and a half and the first half-dozen are already in the ground in California pending utility hookup. Now if Tesla had used the Frankenplug instead of their own proprietary plug it might have a chance. But as it stands right now, the Frankenplug faces a huge uphill battle.
          mustang_sallad
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          Spark towards the end of 2013, BMW i3 in January 2014, and VW will have an SAE DC charging EV early next year as well. The cars are coming, and there's plenty of momentum with the bulk of manufacturers falling in line behind SAE. Even Tesla's charging system uses the same communications protocol as defined in the SAE standards, see this interview with the CTO: http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11923
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @JakeY
          The current number of Chademo vehicles is largely irrelevant compared to the long-term eventual size of the market. And automakers don't want to pay Chademo. They already lined up and created an alternate industry standard using the normal industry standards group and have all the US & German car companies behind it. That weighs much more than the tiny number of exist chademo cars.
        skierpage
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Spec
        Talk is cheap. CHAdeMO is out there in decent numbers and is in production from multiple suppliers at low prices. Putting CHAdeMO chargers out there actually benefits existing drivers. Supercharger is better engineering. SAE Combo is... well... chosen by everyone else who doesn't have an electric car to sell right now and is a compromise standard.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @skierpage
          Supercharger is better engineering? The things crash a lot and sometimes are completely down. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/supercharger-software-update-harris-ranch Heck, the people who followed Broder's journey a week later had big problems having to request Tesla reboot the chargers and eventually they had to get a custom on-the-spot software update pushed from Tesla to one of their cars to get it to charge. Actually, they had to get two of them as the first locked the charge door shut! Kudos for Tesla for trying to tackle this difficult problem. But declaring their engineering superior is premature. Right now their chargers are unreliable and that's a serious problem.
      bluepongo1
      • 2 Years Ago
      Not very forward thinking, but that's what you get when you opt for the cheap bid. It may be the standard in Japan, but Tesla owners globally aren't going to go for inferior quality because there are more econoboxes with a different plug
        Dave R
        • 2 Years Ago
        @bluepongo1
        Tesla owners? Tesla has already gone in a completely different direction based on their own proprietary standard. Tesla has already committed to building a CHAdeMO adapter, but it ain't pretty and sure won't be cheap, either. But most Tesla owners shouldn't have any problem paying for it.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Dave R
          They might have trouble carrying it though. The CHAdeMO plug is large enough that I wouldn't want to lug it in and out of my trunk (or frunk), I can't imagine the inlet is any smaller. An adapter is probably too heavy to hang off Tesla's relatively small power port too, it'll likely have a short cable to reach the ground as the Roadster J1772 adapters and the (enormous!) Roadster to Model S adapters do.
          bluepongo1
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Dave R
          @ Dave R My comment is in response to the poster in the story above your comment is commonly known.
      • 2 Years Ago
      typo mroe = more "and mroe are coming"
      raktmn
      • 2 Years Ago
      Nissan is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Leaf battery can't take being charged at full SAE combo power levels. So even if they adopt the plug standard, they will still have to throttle back the charge rate. Then they will have to face endless questions and taunting about their slow battery charge rates. If they stick with their current fairly low power plug that will quicly be eclipsed with much higher power charging and they get accused of dragging their feet and holding back the evolution of EV chargers. They pretty much can't win.
        Dave R
        • 2 Years Ago
        @raktmn
        Huh? CHAdeMO and the SAE combo plug have similar maximum power handling capabilities, about 100 kW (though current production versions of CHAdeMO equipment currently only support up to 50 kW). I suspect that the first SAE QC stations will also only be 50 kW capable.
          raktmn
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Dave R
          Dave R - Can you provide docs to back up your claim about CHAdeMo being able to support 100 kW charging? I'd look it up in their design specifications, but they don't make those public. The best I've seen documented is 62.5 kW. Based on this, they would need to increase their charge rate by around 50% to match SAE combo or Tesla supercharger levels. But my central point is that the batteries in the Leaf can't take faster charging. Nissan already has a bad reputation for batteries getting hot while charging on hot days, because the batteries are air cooled. So like I said, plowing 50% higher charge rates into their current battery (even if CHAdeMO can go that high) probably wouldn't work. So they will have to throttle back the charge rate if plugged into either an SAE combo plug, or a 100 kW CHAdeMO plug if such a thing exists. Nothing you said contradicts that, or even addresses that.
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Dave R
          The CHAdeMO connector are only rated for 125A so there is no way they can support 100kW. SAE's will be rated for 200A.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Dave R
          The only CHAdeMO charger I've ever used said it was 60kW. (Blink). I'm sure you're right about the first SAE QC stations ratings.
        Giza Plateau
        • 2 Years Ago
        @raktmn
        raktmn, not the brightest thing ever said. Batteries have recharge speed limits. it's not an embarrassment. Your assessment of the situation is however.
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