November's US alternative-fuel vehicle sales remained steady relative to recent months as strong sales for Ford's C-Max hybrids and the all-electric Nissan Leaf offset the effect of lower Chevrolet Volt extended-range plug-in hybrid sales than October. Year-over-year growth rate slowed markedly because Toyota regained its normal hybrid sales pace about this time of year in 2011 after sales figures were hampered for much of last year by the effects of the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami, which hindered supply.

November alt-fuel sales totaled 46,216 units, up 44 percent from 2011.

November alt-fuel sales totaled 46,216 units, up 44 percent from 2011 and about even with October's numbers. October sales were up 76 percent year-over-year, while September sales were about double those in September 2011. Automakers also sold 6,355 plug-ins in November, down from a monthly record 6,784 units in October but more than three times as many as they did in 2011.

Toyota continues to account for about half of the US alt-fuel market, boosting sales by 29 percent from a year earlier to 24,714. Much of that gain came from the Camry Hybrid, which upped sales fivefold from a year earlier to 3,936 units. Lexus hybrid sales rose 27 percent from November 2011 to 3,724 vehicles. The Prius increased unit sales by just 8.5 percent to 16,505 vehicles, as the world's best selling hybrid faced a stronger comparison from last year's numbers than it did in October. Prius V wagon sales fell 24 percent from a year earlier to 2,690 units.

Toyota's leadership may have been dented by Ford's rapid alt-fuel vehicle sales growth.

In fact, Toyota's leadership may have been dented by Ford and its rapid alt-fuel vehicle sales growth. The US automaker almost tripled year-earlier alt-fuel vehicle sales to 7,157 units. Ford's C-Max Hybrid has emerged as by far the company's biggest alt-fuel seller, outpacing sales of the competing Toyota Prius V to total 3,589 units and becoming the second-best selling US hybrid to the Prius hatchback version. And in its first full month of sales, the C-Max Energi PHEV sold 1,259 units, compared to the 1,766 units sold of the Prius Plug-in (which took the top plug-in vehicle spot in the US last month), while Fusion Hybrid sales almost doubled from a year earlier to 1,834 units. Even the Focus Electric had its best-ever month, with sales of 172 vehicles.

The Prius Plug-in took the top plug-in vehicle sales spot the US last month.

General Motors also came up big, more than doubling year-earlier alt-fuel sales to 3,854 units. While Chevrolet Volt sales were approximately cut in half from October, the model's 1,519 units sold represented a 33 percent increase from a year earlier, and the sales put the Volt over the 20,000-unit threshold for the year. GM mild hybrids such as the Buick LaCrosse and Regal and the Chevrolet Malibu continued to have big year-over-year gains, while GM's SUV and pickup hybrid sales were almost triple those in November 2011.

As for Nissan, the Japanese automaker, which had its second-best-ever sales month for the Leaf in October, nearly matched that total last month with 1,539 units sold, more than double a year earlier. For the year, Nissan continued to close the gap from last year's sales, as its 8,330 units sold are 4.5 percent less than November 2011's sales.

Eco-minded vehicles from German automakers also did well in November. Volkswagen clean-diesel vehicle sales surged 28 percent from a year earlier to 7,182 vehicles, while Audi boosted sales by six percent to 515 units. Porsche hybrid sales were up 5.4 percent to 175 units.

Meanwhile, Mitsubishi sold 42 of its all-electric i vehicles, marking that model's best month since May.

Honda remained last month's only disappointment.

Honda remained last month's only disappointment, dropping sales totals by 33 percent from a year earlier to 1,038 units. While Civic Hybrid sales were up 5.4 percent from November 2011, CR-Z sales fell 20 percent while Insight hybrid sales plunged 68 percent. Honda also moved 26 units of the Fit EV.

For the year, US alt-fuel vehicles are on pace to have their first half-million-unit sales year, boosting the year-to-date total by 76 percent from a year earlier to 492,462 vehicles sold. Plug-in vehicle sales have exceeded 43,000, almost triple what was sold in 2011 through November.



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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 69 Comments
      • 2 Years Ago
      I think the critical number to track is the number of vehicles that have plugs. Those are fundamentally different and are the crux of the whole transition to free us from oil. This month: 6323 (Prius 1766, Leaf 1539, Volt 1519, C-Max 1259, Focus 172, MiEV 42, Fit 26). Excellent.
        • 2 Years Ago
        BTW, here's how that number has developed this year: 1281, 1681, 2868, 3565, 3367, 3112, 3010, 4643, 5598, 6784, 6355. An encouraging trend. (Note: I left our RAV4 EV in the first tally above. And, I don't have numbers for the Model S or others.)
      SVX pearlie
      • 2 Years Ago
      Ford has leased over 500 Focus EVs, so job's done in terms of meeting the CARB requirement?
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @SVX pearlie
        How did they move 172 of them last month? Big discount? Pawned off the rental agencies?
      Grendal
      • 2 Years Ago
      We might just hit the "half million electric cars on the road by 2015" if you consider EREVs to be included. That's just in the US alone. You'd have to include all of 2015, but other than that it looks pretty good for 500,000.
        SVX pearlie
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Grendal
        500k USDM plug-in by (Dec.) 2015? Hmm... Let's see what we have: 165k Volt (30k by 2012 +35k, 45k, 55k) 90k PIP (15k by 2012, +15k, 25k, 35k) 75k Cmax PHEV (2k + 15k, 25k, 35k) 70k Accord, Volvo, & Fisker PHEV = 400k PHEV 80k Leaf (20k by 2012, +15k, 20k, 25k) 20k Spark EV, Fit EV, FFE, MIEV & Tesla = 100k BEV I concur that grand total 500k USDM plug-in by Dec. 2015 is possible based on demonstrated sales momentum to date and relatively conservative increased adoption rates. Dec. 2016 is a given, tho Dec. 2014 would be something of a stretch. I would NOT bet against 500k USDM plug-ins by Dec. 2015.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @SVX pearlie
          Totally agree with you there as well. I think the Volt is a sleeping giant. I think adding the Caddy into the mix will only boost the Volts sales. Also, at some point, you mentioned that they will be offering different size battery packs for the Volt that will also go a long way to improve its long term sales numbers.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @SVX pearlie
          Glad to do it, Grendal. In the numbers, probably Volt is low, misc PHEV low, Leaf high, non-Leaf BEV low. My gut says the over/under for Dec. 2015 is closer to 600k.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @SVX pearlie
          That was my quick and dirty run of the numbers too. Thank you for doing the hard work by typing them up.
        Marcopolo
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Grendal
        @ Grendal 500,000 ? That would be great, but I fear wildly optimistic. The most promising EREV Volt might by 2015 achieve 50,000 sales per year, and Tesla may achieve 20-30, 000. Nissan's Leaf, could improve a little but at even double it's present figures, lags behind. Other new models, like Chevy's Spark and specialist vehicles will contribute a little, So yeah, maybe 150,000 -250,000 at best. But more important is the rapid spread of EV technology in the form of advanced hybrids.
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          A lot will depend on gas prices. If they remain around $3.50/gallon, then things are not going to change fast. But if gas cruises past $4/gallon and maybe up to $5/gallon . . . well, then the relative utility of EVs & PHEVs changes big time. And here is the kicker . . . a good economy means the price of gas will shoot up. (More people driving work, more people buying things, etc. means more gas usage). So those people that are hoping for EVs & PHEVs to fail are basically saying "I hope the economy sucks for the indefinite future!" They should really think about that. But they simply don't see the whole picture and like to imagine a magical world with a roaring economy and $2.50/gallon gas. Those days are gone forever. Deal with it.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          Gas prices will go up, but it's a question of velocity - if it goes up slowly and consistently, gas can hit $6/gal and people will accept it. If it jumps from $3.50 to $5, people will freak out. driven by visiblity and word of mouth.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          I totally agree with SVX's analysis of the market. Plug-ins are falling into certain categories: Improved Hybrid - plug-in for a short range boost - Prius and Ford have got this market. EREV's - Volt, Caddy, and Fisker have got this - with Volt building momentum and numbers. Pure EV City Car - Leaf, Spark, Coda, RAV4 EV and all the compliance cars. EV - Tesla Some of the ones listed are minor players but you can get a sense of the building momentum. The US is somewhat antagonistic to change so I expect there will be a massive worldwide demand for plug-ins by the end of 2015. The revolution has just begun but it is definitely coming.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          SVX has the numbers right. President Obama's prediction looks accurate as long as you give it all of 2015. Fox business news did a hit piece on EV and EREVs recently laughing at Obama's prediction. Someone there posted numbers since 2009 and the numbers looked entirely possible. 2009 - 1000 cars 2010 - 1000 cars 2011 - 18000 cars 2012 - 36000+ cars I'll let SVX's numbers run from there but you can see the progression is looking good. There are a lot more plug-in choices coming on line to really boost it even higher.
          Marcopolo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          I deliberately didn't include the Plug in Prius, or the Ford C-max e, so as not to disturb the Hybrid v EREV fanatics who don't rate the Toyota or Ford as EREV's. But even if you want to designate all cars with plugs in the mix, (which is probably fair) I think that even by 2016 , Nissan will not have sold 80,000 Leaf. in the US. Even Volt will struggle to sell more than 30,000 per year North America. (although it's possible). But Toyota will continue to dominate with various PIEV's and make up the numbers, as will Ford. By adding Toyota and Ford, the numbers will improve, but 10 times the number in just 3 years ? I really hope so......
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          Method-wise, I think it's fair to include all plug-ins. A lot of people will self-select the smaller ranges based on their usage. If I still lived in Ann Arbor, with an 8-mile RT commute (9 miles with errands), even a PIP would more than meet my needs. A lot of moms could get away with similarly short AERs and avoid most gas. Volt is selling at a 35k annuallized rate, and there's no reason that should shrink. The main thing is word of mouth and mainstreaming. Volt will move 50+k by 2015 - the question is how much longer they'll have best-in-class status. Over the next 3 years, USDM plug-ins are going to *explode*, based on GM's excellent product spawning a host of imitators, all angling for volume to match Volt. Next year, PIP and Cmax are going to get a big boost riding Volt's coattails, tho reality will assert itself late summer. Larger packs and lower costs will hit 2014-2015. You'll see.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Marcopolo
          Using your numbers: * Volt is 30k + 3x 50k = 180k * Leaf is 20k + 3x 20k = 80k That's 260k right there. PIP has a solid track record good for 15k annually, adding 60k to the pile for a total of 320k. Then factor Cmax, Accord at a minimum 10-15k annually each, plus Volvo PHEV, and it's 400k. Quite frankly, it's really difficult to construct a rational, numbers-driven scenario whereby you don't have at least 350k, 400k US plugin by Dec. 2015. If one looks at exponential Volt adoption rates, along with mainstreaming via other OEMs, it is relatively easy to project 1M cars by Dec. 2015.
      Marcopolo
      • 2 Years Ago
      I'm still baffled at the description of diesel (clean or otherwise) as an alternate fuel ! However, it's good to see that Ford hybrid sales, although only 10% of Toyota ) sales are beginning to become significant players in the deployment of EV technology. GM's Volt may have had one bad month but sales are still solid and expanding. The runt of the pack, is Mitsubishi's iMev . This is the cheapest EV, but only managed 511 sales.
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Marcopolo
        10% for the year but almost 30% for the month. Ford's C-Max and Fusion are strong contenders.
        wxman
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Marcopolo
        And I'm baffled by commenters that object to diesel being considered an "alternate fuel", but have no objections to hybrids that run on gasoline as an "alternate fuel".
          Marcopolo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          @ wxman In one way, you're quite correct. But hybrids are perceived as a stepping stone to eliminating the use of gasoline, where diesel...is just less refined oil.
        Joeviocoe
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Marcopolo
        Technically, diesel in the U.S... is an "alternative" fuel. Alternative does NOT equal Green. It is something we've adopted actually. (Europe, diesel is too mainstream) Just like the Volt is a Hybrid, technically. The term Hybrid, just refers to more than one drivetrain. But we've taken it to mean something more specific (and relateable to the Prius)... so now, people are harking about the Volt being not a hybrid. Alternative is just that. It is not supposed to denote low emissions or environmentalism. But it has become more specific than it should be. General terms are too general for some people.
          Marcopolo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          @ Joeviocoe Yes, it's a constantly evolving language English ! Once the only word in the English language to mean it's opposite was the verb 'cleave' , but now thanks to modern usage you add a host, including 'bad' .. But I digress ! I took 'alternate' fuels in the context of an alternative to fossil fuels. Thanks to Toyota 'Hybrid suggest an ICE car with some degree of EV technology. An EREV or REEV, is an EV, that's battery can be recharged from an on-board auxiliary ICE engine. We live in confusing times :)
      Zzzz...
      • 2 Years Ago
      Could you guys somehow highlight plug-ins in the spreadsheet?
      Spec
      • 2 Years Ago
      This guy thinks Tesla sold 1,150 of its Model S sports sedans in November: http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/12/06/electric-car-sales-hit-another-record/ I seriously doubt they sold that many but Tesla is definitely adding to the EVs out there. I've seen them on the road several times now. It would be nice if they shared their real numbers but I suspect they are quite careful sharing their numbers and are trying to shape perceptions as best they can.
        Grendal
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Spec
        That actually sounds a little low. They seem to be averaging about 60 cars a day. The current reservation amount is over 15,500. The European number is over 1800. I'm guessing but I think the European numbers are added into the first reservation number somehow. At the current rate they are going to have all of next year completely sold out by March.
      Smurf
      • 2 Years Ago
      It is exciting to see PHEV's begin to make their mark. We have now made the jump from 40-50 MPG from regular hybrids to 85 MPG, 100 MPG and higher with PHEV's. This is a major step forward.... As PHEV sales continue to grow, the impact will be significant...
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Smurf
        Indeed. PHEVs can make a HUGE difference. All that has to be done is have the owner plug-in at night and then the owner will get 12 to 45 miles of gas-free driving each day depending on the car and driving style.
      SVX pearlie
      • 2 Years Ago
      On Diesels, where are the BMW X5 35d - that's just as "green" as the VW TDI.
        Joeviocoe
        • 2 Years Ago
        @SVX pearlie
        Alternative != Green Never has.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          SVX, very true. It might be due to the relative variation of real MPG between the diesel and gasoline versions. The TDIs get 'hybrid-like' increases from the gas versions. The old BMW/Benz got less noticeable gains (on the mpg scale), same with the trucks. But it is misleading anyway, since a 4 mpg increase from 16 to 20 is MUCH better at saving fuel than a 10 mpg increase from 30 to 40. If gallons per mile were used, it would be clear. So yeah, this is very arbitrary and unfair. You and I could keep yelling at ABG every time they posted an article like this... but it will have the same effect as yelling about the unfair "Volt vs. Leaf" domestic sales figures they post. Nothing happens.... it generates comments, and that is how they get advertising revenue.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          It's an issue with the pseudo methodology that AB "green" employs. VW / Audi turbodiesel counts. Ford / Chevy / GMC / Ram turbodiesel doesn't count. BMW / Mercedes diesel doesn't count (despite ages of Benz diesels). What the F*CK is the criteria for diesel being included by AB "green"?
          BF4ALTF
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          Joeviocoe := geek
      carney373
      • 2 Years Ago
      As with every month, once again, I have to take issue with this chart, for glaring omissions and glaringly wrong inclusions. Non plug in hybrids that can only run on gasoline, or on a battery electric system that was charged up by burning gasoline earlier, are NOT "alt-fuel" vehicles, and should not be included. Flex fuel vehicles, that are designed, warranted, tested, and approved by regulators and insurers to run on E85 ethanol ARE "alt-fuel" vehicles and should have been included, not excluded.
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @carney373
        You have a point with hybrids but E85? No. That is gasoline with a required oxygenation additive added and just a little bit more ethanol to make people feel good (when they really shouldn't because ethanol is created with diesel-powered tractors & trucks).
        Joeviocoe
        • 2 Years Ago
        @carney373
        In the case of this chart.... anything "alternative" to the normal... is "Alt". Would you prefer if we called it Grunge? In the U.S., a turbodiesel passenger car is uncommon enough to be "Alt".
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Joeviocoe
          "In the case of this chart.... anything "alternative" to the normal... is "Alt"." Except, of course, for turbodiesel pickups and premium European diesel cars / CUVs...
        carney373
        • 2 Years Ago
        @carney373
        Also, cars that can only run on petroleum-derived diesel, with no manufacturer support, no warranted support, for running on 100% bio diesel, are not "alt fuel" vehicles either. HIGHER EFFICIENCY IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ALTERNATIVE FUEL.
        Smurf
        • 2 Years Ago
        @carney373
        Potato, Po"tah"to.... Alternative "propulsion" vehicles that use electric propulsion from regenerative energy or plug-in are MUCH more deserving to be in this chart than flex-fuel vehicles that run on gasoline 99.9% of the time in the US. That is why hybrids and EV's have qualified for alternative fuel license plates for HOV access and flex-fuel vehicles haven't.
          carney373
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Smurf
          I agree with you that plug-in cars count. My beef with hybrid inclusion focuses on hybrids that cannot plug in, that derive all their motive power from gasoline. Such hybrids not only don't use anything other than gasoline to move, they CAN'T even if their owners wanted them to. By contrast, at least a flex fuel vehicle CAN run on alternative fuel. E85 is an alternative fuel, according to both common sense and federal law. There are over 2,400 filling stations selling E85 in America, up from only 50 in 2001. Somebody's buying and using the stuff.
      Vlad
      • 2 Years Ago
      Ford is coming strong. Hope Fox won't decide to stoke illogical hatred towards that American company among its viewers. They did more than enough damage to GM.
        EZEE
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Vlad
        You never know when a fox employee may be hiding behind a tree or a stone....but the battle will begin, and because the environment will so hate the Fox News employees for their evil, The Fox employees would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Liberals, progressives, there is a Fox employee behind me; come and kill him;
          Marcopolo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          @ Spec, "You can't deny that Fox is a GOP/conservative propaganda outfit." I do deny that the Fox network exists as a GOP/conservative propaganda outfit ! The Fox network simply found an audience neglected by the other networks, and exploited that audience to create advertizing revenue. Fox doesn't care about the GOP or any other political party, it simply provides entertainment for it's viewers. When Fox finds Liberal products that garner ratings, it exploits those shows. Like all tabloids, Fox is a populist media platform, designed to make money. Not very noble perhaps, certainly not idealistic, but very much in the tradition of a free press !
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          @Marco Fox serves both interests. I'm not saying it is solely a GOP propaganda machine . . . but that is a large function of it. Yes, it is a great business. Who sits around and watches cable news all day? No one but cranky old white people. Cranky old white people are generally conservative. Thus, give the people what they want . . . boom, popular channel. BUT IT IS NOT JOURNALISM. It is info-tainment. The left-wing opinion shows on MSNBC are also just opinion shows. Maddow, O'Donnell, and Matthews are very biased in their opinions. It is not "news" and they don't claim it to be news. They do, however, do a much better job of being based in reality & facts. That is an objective truth can be empirically measured by all the predictions on Fox News about how Romney was going to win from Hannity, Rove, Krauthammer, Dick Morris, Bill O'Reilly, etc.
          Spec
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          You can't deny that Fox is a GOP/conservative propaganda outfit. It just is. We just got a tape released the other day of someone promising to have Roger Ailes help General Patreaus' run as GOP presidential nominee if he so chose. http://www.businessinsider.com/roger-ailes-wanted-petraeus-as-president-2012-12 Fox "news" is what it is.
          Marcopolo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          @ EZEE EH, What was that? I can't hear you over the noise of this bulldozer clearing the stones, trees, to build a Fox studio, thus saving the forest from tofu-eating, liberal, progressive , fascist greenies, and treehuggers. We've been forced to destroy the forest, in order to save it ! Now stop distracting me, I nearly missed that group of national traitors from the Sierra club !
      • 2 Years Ago
      Eco-minded vehicles from German automakers poisoning fresh air in whole europe! clean-diesel vehicles?? that is bad joke!
        wxman
        • 2 Years Ago
        Even if you look at only the certified exhaust emissions, there are some clean diesels in the U.S. that come very close to SULEV (and Nissan has developed a SULEV clean diesel - claims to anyway - http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/sulev_lcdt.html). The BMW X5 35d only misses SULEV by one emission factor - NOx - http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2013/bmw_ldt_a0080337_3d0_l2_diesel.pdf and the MB E350 BlueTec only misses SULEV in NMHC emissions (even NOx meets the SULEV standard).
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          Good points. I haven't been looking close enough I guess. Any definitive comparisons to the king of hybrids (Prius)?
        wxman
        • 2 Years Ago
        Current diesel technology is as clean as any other technology, cleaner than most.
          wxman
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          @Joe, Here is a comparison of WTW emissions of a Passat TDI and a Prius using the same methodology as outlined in the PZEV vs TDI link (EPA emission factors)... Emission.....................2012 Passat TDI.......................2012 Toyota Prius (PZEV) HC+NOx.........................0.177.................................................0.219 CO...................................0.11...................................................0.11 PM...................................0.022.................................................0.017 SOx..................................0.066.................................................0.048 As far as the ANL presentation link, try googling - Wang, "GREET Life-Cycle Analysis of Vehicle/Fuel Systems." It's a slide presentation from 2007.
          wxman
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          The EPA pollution score is largely irrelevant because it only accounts for "tailpipe" emissions, and then the only the "bin" a car is certified to. There's nothing special from an air quality perspective about the arbitrary cutoffs of the criteria pollutants EPA has made for each bin. ONE of the sources for supporting my point can be found at http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Environment/EnvironmentalHealthRT/WangGREETPresentationtoInstituteofMedicine1107REVISED.ashx , slides 21-26. Do you see ANY category that gasoline, or even gasoline hybrid, is better than diesel? And that's from Argonne National Laboratory, a U.S. DOE national lab, who would have no vested interest in favoring one technology over another.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          wxman... I drive a 99 TDI.... and keep a close eye on the new TDIs which meet Tier 2 bin 5... they are cleanER. And they are starting to become comparable to a few gasoline cars in their class. But they are far from "cleaner than most [other technology]. And if compared to a hybrid, yeah, not clean. I put 100% biodiesel as much as I can, and beat most emissions (not NOx) for conventional cars and even many hybrids. Not Priuses, but I am ahead of that class with my performance. I think my overall CO2 is lower though, gotta get dynoed to be sure. But that is just me, with 100% biodiesel, which cannot be done on the recent models. Sorry, but although I love my car, it is a stopgap until I get a plugin. I'll keep it around to make the long trips though.
          wxman
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          @Joe, I still disagree with you. Did you even look at the link I provided? I have provided an analysis of regulated emissions of a PZEV-certified version of the VW Passat compared to a Passat TDI clean diesel using certified exhaust emissions and valid estimates of upstream emissions. It's available on line at http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2012.html. Please note that I used both GREET data (provided by Argonne National Laboratory) and EPA emission factors (lower half of web page) to determine upstream emissions. In each case, the TDI is lower ACROSS-THE-BOARD than the PZEV Passat, even in the case of a Euro 5-certified TDI. Do you have any valid reasons for discounting upstream emissions from the production of the fuels?
          Wm
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          Please supply your data on this one. Please list just one US sold diesel vehicle that gets an EPA pollution index of 9 or better. If you believe the clean diesel propaganda, you probably believe that pork is a white meat, Macs don't get viruses and coal is clean. While diesel engines are far cleaner than they once were, they don't come close to the cleanest gas engines when measuring all pollutants.
          Brody
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          Some Euro emission standards are not as strict as US, so Euro diesel ARE dirtier. These differences in standards make it very expensive a to bring Euro diesels to the US, unfortunately. I wold never call a diesel green, a LOT of diesels do't beat the most fuel cars in turns of GHG (remember that gas MPG does not equal diesel MPG). I would call efficient diesels a lighter shade of brown.
          Joeviocoe
          • 2 Years Ago
          @wxman
          No, the IOM.edu link did not work for me. I thing the blog format killed a few characters. Okay, you make a good case against the PZEVs. How about the more cherished hybrids that get similar mpg as the TDIs?
        wxman
        • 2 Years Ago
        @ Joe, You also can't make the broad statement that all hybrids are cleaner than all clean diesels. Take the MB clean diesel and hybrid versions of the S-class for example (using EPA emission factors for upstream emissions)... Emission..................2013 MB S350 BT...........................2013 MB S400 H (PZEV) NMHC+NOx...................0.265.................................................0.484 CO...................................0.10...................................................0.622 PM2.5...............................0.029.................................................0.029 SOx..................................0.096.................................................0.108 How does the diesel look not clean compared to the hybrid in the same vehicle platform?
      Spec
      • 2 Years Ago
      Lots of very interesting numbers to analyze. For example: ~33% of the C-Max cars sold were plug-in. I suspect that is higher than most would have guessed. The Volt continues to be GM's best selling 'hybrid' despite the sales drop. Ford sold 172 Focus electrics? How did they manage that? Honda is a disaster in the hybrid & plug-in space. Putting only 16KWH in a pure electric car is a bad idea (Mitsubishi-i).
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