Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe
  • Geneva 2012: Renault Zoe

When it comes to battery-electric vehicle sales across the pond, Renault's Zoe will get the better of the sibling rivalry against the Nissan Leaf.

That's what Renault is expecting will happen when it starts selling the Zoe later this year, according to Automotive News and, to make sure vehicles will be available, Renault will have an annual production capacity for the Zoe of as many as 150,000 vehicles. To compare, Nissan will be able to build just 25,000 Leafs at its Sunderland, UK plant when that comes online early next year. Globally, Nissan will be able to make over 200,000 Leafs a year once all its plants go into operation.

The Zoe is about eight percent shorter than the Leaf and, more importantly, about half the price thanks to a battery lease program of around $110 a month. Renault debuted the production version of the Zoe at the Geneva Motor Show in March, and spelled out a price of less than $21,000 in France (in U.S. dollars, after government incentives) and about $21,400 in the UK. Those lower price tags should attract plenty of EV customers, even though the Zoe will have a single-charge driving range that's about 30 percent shorter than the Leaf's.

Despite relatively low sales of the Renault Kangoo utility EV so far, Thierry Koskas, Renault's EV project director, said that he still expects EVs to account for 10 percent of new cars in Europe by the end of the decade.


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 44 Comments
      RC
      • 3 Years Ago
      The Zoe would also outsell the LEAF here in the States. We'd definitely go for its better looks.
      American Refugee
      • 2 Years Ago
      The big challenge with electric car adoption in Europe today is that for lots of folks, there are good public transport options as the alternative to owning a "short range" car. Here in Amsterdam, I thought about buying a car (my new apartment even has parking!) but I live two blocks from a metro stop and less then two miles from work, and I realized that the only way to justify the expense is to have a car I could use for the occasional road trip or vacation. That probably means buying the best milage diesel I can find. Electric cars are a suburban commuters dream, but while more Europeans do live in suburbs now, it's nowhere near as much as in the US, and the urban environment is still built to favor carlessness. Mind you, it's a good problem to have, with a green option being stepped on by an even greener option. Admittedly, if I had small children, with all their crap to haul, I might feel differently.
        Anne
        • 2 Years Ago
        @American Refugee
        You're supposed to throw away the crap with the diapers. There, first lesson for a parent-to-be. ;)
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Anne
          Anne: I don't suppose you have seen the actual contract terms for Renault's battery lease? Marco is suggesting all sorts of complications, so that you can't buy the car without paying a balloon payment on the battery as well as the car, you are stuck with the same battery pack and so on. It all wouldn't make any difference to you, if you are getting the car and battery on a normal 3 or 4 year business lease, and handing both back at the end of the term, but it would be interesting to know what is going on.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Anne
          @Anne: Reposted from below: 'I have contacted Renault finance and once the car is paid up, including any balloon payment at the end of the lease or whatever so that the car is your property, you can instruct the Renault garage to remove the battery if you do not wish to renew the lease. Of course the lease on the battery would also need to be expired. This is chargeable, but both the Fluence and Zoe are Better Place compatible and so the battery and connections are designed for repeated swift removal of the battery. Of course warranties etc become void, but that is to be expected and in any case the main warranty extending beyond 3 years or so is for the body, which they could hardly claim is affected by what battery is in it. You can only lease the battery from Renault, and they will not sell it to you. The cost of the battery for insurance purposes is £7,500 in the case of the Kangoo 22 kwh.' They are not going to like it, but there is nothing they can do about it if you don't want to keep the battery once the car is paid for. The real effect of this though is that they can't just put up lease prices arbitrarily, or they would get too many batteries back. With that in mind they are unlikely to get too many batteries returned to much affect their economics, and have an incentive to offer you a new, better battery once the old one is exhausted after 8 years at 12,000 miles pa and so needs scrapping or repurposing for non-car use anyway. It seems likely with the discounts that Renault can get for volume that would still be a good way of doing things for the customer instead of putting in a bought one. The bottom line is that battery leasing will have to remain at a competitive price, and they don't have total control.
          Anne
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Anne
          Davemart, I do not expect very much from this upgrade to a newer tech. You can't have the situation where people will ditch their old batteries in droves after 3 years because better batteries are available. I just can't see Renault making any money from a heap of 3-year old batteries that is worth virtually nothing. Remember that 3 years down the road, new batteries will be both cheaper and better. Todays batteries will very likely have a very low residual value after 3 years. At 22 kWh and $ 375/kWh the price of that battery is now $ 8250. A 3-year lease for ~ $ 115 per month earns them a little over $ 4000 gross in 3 years. They'll probably need three times that amount to make it profitable. It might be that their business case is to make a handsome profit on the car and lease the batteries at a loss. This would be a first, since most comparable business models (mobile phones for example) work the other way around.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Anne
          Renault have said: ''Thierry Koskas, Renault’s electric vehicle programme boss, said: ‘The purchase price of EVs with batteries would be too high. By leasing them at around £70 a month we can get the retail price of EVs down to the same level as equivalent petrol or diesel cars with government incentives. ‘It also means that when new battery technology comes along, owners will be able to upgrade their battery.’'' If I find out any definite contract details I will let you know. I am not sure if Marco has actually seen the contract or not.
          Anne
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Anne
          DaveMart, No, didn't see those contract terms yet. As I'm not going to buy the car anyway (merely enjoy it ;), let's say that I am curious, but not very interested. My main question is this: after the 3 year battery lease contract ends, what then? Do you have to continue to lease the same battery at whatever price Renault feels like charging you? Will you be offered a choice to continue leasing the same battery (at a lower cost) or a fresh battery? Will there be 3rd party batteries available for lease or purchase? One thing is certain, Renault must be able to rent out those batteries for a lot more than 3 years to make it profitable.
      DaveMart
      • 3 Years Ago
      I don't know where GCG invents it's 'facts from: 'the Zoe will have a single-charge driving range that's about 30 percent shorter than the Leaf's.' The only comparable tests they have done are on the NEDC cycle. The Zoe is rated at 130 miles, and the Leaf at 109 miles: http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2012/03/renault-zoe-ze-unmasked-keenly-priced.html http://www.ovguide.com/nissan-leaf-9202a8c04000641f800000000dfe5479 That is 20% more range per charge, not 30% less.
        Anne
        • 3 Years Ago
        @DaveMart
        Of course it isn't 30% less. An ev with 30% shorter range than the LEAF is D.O.A. Did they mix up miles and km's? 130 (miles) is 26% less than 175 (km). One more reason for those Americans to go S.I. ;) I already noticed that the number of deliveries of the LEAF in April took a nosedive in the Netherlands. 12 vs. 32 for March and 28 for February. Are people opting to wait for the ZOE? I hope so.
        DaveMart
        • 3 Years Ago
        @DaveMart
        Slow sales of the Kangoo ZE? Maybe they are all being stockpiled somewhere, but 5,000 produced by 19th April when they started sales in October doesn't sound too bad to me: http://www.evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2012/Apr/Kangoo-ZE-reaches-production-milestone/0438005140/
        DaveMart
        • 3 Years Ago
        @DaveMart
        Astoundingly, they are correct on the vehicle lengths.
      Kei Jidosha
      • 3 Years Ago
      With a price and cash flow that compares favorably with ICE, the ZOE will get noticed. Targeting the EU’s preferred B-segment market will get it sold. Better range, and the best on-board charger this side of Tesla will make it easy to own and useful. No question it would outsell the LEAF in Europe. It would give the LEAF tough competition in the US, given the chance.
        DaveMart
        • 3 Years Ago
        @Kei Jidosha
        Yeah. Remarkably at 338 litres the boot is about the same size as that of the Leaf. I am not sure how the interior accommodation compares, but the French are masters of packing a lot into a small space, if not always of reliability. Nissan the last they told us had not decided what to offer as their 4th electric car. Since they obviously have considerable access to the design of the Zoe it seems that they might consider a version of that, and perhaps their battery leasing scheme if both prove successful, although I understand that in some states there might be legal difficulties in leasing rather than selling the batteries. The size, packaging and price of the Zoe are certainly far more acceptable for the European market than the Leaf.
      EZEE
      • 3 Years Ago
      Hey people I read this on a new type of battery - only 5 years out. An old take on the hot batteries of yore, but some nifty twists that they say can make solar energy more viable, and can have the capacity to 'store the grid.' http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22116/?fb_ref=article Not really a car thing, so not screaming for Dominick....but interesting nonetheless....
      Scambuster
      • 3 Years Ago
      wrong. Expensive battery lease is not popular. If the plan is to beat the Leaf, Zoe will revert to selling the battery rather than leasing.
        DaveMart
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Scambuster
        Sorry, I was comparing with ICE cars. The comparison with the Leaf is that on the ZOE depreciation is around 2,000 pa less, and you pay an extra ~£1,200 on battery lease. That means the Leaf costs around £800pa more than the Zoe, plus any extra interest charges on the capital sum if you buy/lease a car for around 3 years for the £9,000 extra of the Leaf.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @DaveMart
          Sorry again. I don't know what is the matter with me today - probably City winning the league at football - the difference in price on the figures I have quoted which are pretty much for base models is of course £11,000. At 5% interest, for instance, you would pay an additional £550 pa for that.
        DaveMart
        • 3 Years Ago
        @Scambuster
        Please share the figures you base this on. Most people who buy new do not keep the car for many years. So basing your purchase on 3 years and at 12,000 miles a year and using the figures for hire costs from the identical battery in the Fluence the battery is £103pm, or £1236pa. Using 40 mpg as an approximate mileage in imperial gallons (4.5 litres) for largely urban driving, based on the Renault Clio which is similar and allowing for the fact that this is an automatic, then at £6/gallon that is £1,800 pa. Electricity at a 3,500kwh for the 12,000 miles at 10p per kwh for off peak comes to £350, so you save £214. However, you have saved on the interest on the more expensive car, the Leaf, which in the UK costs you around £26,000 The Zoe costs you around £15,000. However, ignoring the extra interest on the £9,000 the battery will still have depreciated in the Leaf, whereas in the Zoe you have paid for that in the Lease. Also ignoring the extra depreciation likely to be incurred due to the battery and assuming you manage to get the same rate of residuals on both, you are still better off in the Zoe. At a 45% residual on both the Leaf has cost you £14,300 in depreciation, and the Zoe £8,250, a difference of £6,050. So the Zoe over 3 years is £2,000 pa more economical than the Leaf, and also more economic than any comparable petrol alternative. It is possible that some of the new super-economy cars may run it closer, but I don't have good figures on them, and the ones I am familiar with such as the Up do not offer nearly the same accommodation, and in their automatic versions are no better than the figures I have used in mainly urban driving. I would be curious to see how you manage to come up with the Zoe being a bad deal. I can only imagine that you are comparing it to some hypothetical customer who buys a car new, and keeps it until it falls apart. Not many do that, and the ones that do are mostly low mileage, where battery leasing is not anyway a good option.
          DaveMart
          • 3 Years Ago
          @DaveMart
          Apparently advanced diesel is still the cheapest way of getting about. Here is the Citroen C3, which is a similar size: http://www.buyacar.co.uk/citroen_c3_diesel_hatchback/car_14_e-hdi_airdream_vtr_5dr_egs_44085.jhtml Cheap and with very good mpg, even in the city.
        Spec
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Scambuster
        People have different views on auto leases. I'm not a fan of them. But I guess it depends on your finances, the tax code, etc. If you reduce the price down to the same price as a gas car by not including the battery and then lease the battery at the same price one pays for gasoline, at least you give the buyer a hedge on gasoline prices. But I'm still troubled by the concept of what happens at the end of the lease. Do you own the battery? If not what is to stop them from deciding the lease payment should be higher going forward?
          Marco Polo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Dave Mart. Ah, thank you for such a long reply ! However, you seem to miss the point altogether. Renault is not offering a battery rental plan. The terms of the lease are quite complex, but essentially Renault is selling you a battery on 'time payment', with all the normal interest and costs. I don't know how I can describe the problems inherent in such a scheme more clearly ! 1) If you accept the battery lease scheme, financing the vehicle must also be with Renault as no other lender will advance against an asset, without full and clear title. 2) Trading-in the vehicle means the battery must be paid out in full, unless you are buying another Renault product. 3) There is no real advantage over 'leasing' the whole car, as opposed to leasing the car and a separate lease for the battery. 4) Commonsense should tell you that Renault will not sell you a car cheaper on time payment than outright purchase. (auto-leasing is just another form of time payment ). 5) Residual payments never work to the owners advantage, always the financier ! 6) The battery scheme is complicated by it's mileage calculations. Basically, this is a Renault sales gimmick. It's just a device to make the purchase price look cheaper. I was only answering Spec's specific enquiry. Whether a Leaf is cheaper than a Zoe, is immaterial to Spec's question. That would be a matter of deciding which car is best suited for the purchasers needs.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Marco: You said: 'Renault buyers are trapped with Renault. The battery leasing cost for mileage increases, can become very expensive. ' This is entirely untrue. I have contacted Renault finance and once the car is paid up, including any balloon payment at the end of the lease or whatever so that the car is your property, you can instruct the Renault garage to remove the battery if you do not wish to renew the lease. Of course the lease on the battery would also need to be expired. This is chargeable, but both the Fluence and Zoe are Better Place compatible and so the battery and connections are designed for repeated swift removal of the battery. Of course warranties etc become void, but that is to be expected and in any case the main warranty extending beyond 3 years or so is for the body, which they could hardly claim is affected by what battery is in it. You can only lease the battery from Renault, and they will not sell it to you. The cost of the battery for insurance purposes is £7,500 in the case of the Kangoo 22 kwh.
          Marco Polo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Spec, There are two methods of 'battery leasing' . 1) A simple lease-to-buy. This is exactly the same as a Auto-lease/finance agreement. You own the battery for the term of the lease, and the finance company remains the proprietor . At the end of the lease, you pay the agreed residual and title vests with you. Or the finance company sells the asset and you reimburse any loss between the value ant the agreed residual. 2) A battery rental/lease scheme. In such a lease arrangement, the ownership of the battery remains with the Renault and at the end of the term the battery remains the property of Renault. (or a finance company) . This scheme is not cheap as Renault must recover the total capital cost of the battery, plus interest within the lease term. Either way the concept is fraught with problems and complications ! Both ways, Renault buyers are trapped with Renault. The battery leasing cost for mileage increases, can become very expensive. In addition, if you need to finance the purchase of the car, you are stuck with Renault finance. No other financier is going to finance a car whose main component is owned by someone else. When it comes to resale, again there is a problem with finding a purchaser who wants to 'take over' your battery lease. These are just a few of the unforeseen problems encountered by people naively misunderstanding the operation of Renault's lease plan. I would urge anyone contemplating entering such an agreement, to read the contract very carefully, and get professional independent advice.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Marco: Since there are only 3 reasonably priced options for an electric vehicle in the UK, comparing the costs of the Leaf and the Zoe seems an eminently reasonable thing to do, and since one sells the battery and the other leases it, that involves comparing the two deals. Since your argument on the leasing arrangements involves the precise details, perhaps you could share where you got them from. I appreciate that that may be by written request, but if so perhaps you could say that is where your info is from. Since I could find no reference to final balloon payments on the battery, and it is a separate lease to the car, I assumed that you can pay the balloon payment on the car, but hand back the battery. Indeed, Renault have said: 'Thierry Koskas, Renault’s electric vehicle programme boss, said: ‘The purchase price of EVs with batteries would be too high. By leasing them at around £70 a month we can get the retail price of EVs down to the same level as equivalent petrol or diesel cars with government incentives. ‘It also means that when new battery technology comes along, owners will be able to upgrade their battery.’' Here is a more comprehensive evaluation of the costs of a Zoe versus a Leaf, which broadly supports my figures. http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/the-ev-hokey-cokey I don't know why you imagine that I am not aware that leasing doesn't give anything away. I have clearly indicated that the apparently lower costs are likely due to manufacture in Europe, and Nissan will probably drop its sale prices to match when they are produced in Europe, and the lower prices of the Renault have nothing to do with leasing or buying. So, it would be interesting to see the precise contract details if you have a link. In any case assuming that weirdly they have not specified the balloon final payment, and contrary to what they have said lock you into their battery lease system, my Case 1 still applies, and it is way cheaper to lease the Zoe for 3 or 4 years, and hand both that and the battery pack back, and then you could get the latest and greatest, rather than buy a Leaf. http://www.which.co.uk/cars/choosing-a-car/buying-a-car/buying-vs-leasing/leasing-a-battery-for-an-electric-car/
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @marco: Thinking about it a bit more, it is yourself who has been making purportedly authoritative comments on the exact workings of a contract it turns out that you have never seen. Far from it being up to me to dig out said details, it is surely up to you to substantiate or withdraw.
          Marco Polo
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @ Dave Mart I'm surprised that you ask me for a link on Renault battery lease plan ! How can you draw your comparisons accurately without such information ? I am currently in NZ, so it's a bit difficult for me to obtain a Renault UK battery lease plan. The articles about Renault's battery plan in the usually very authoritative, VRL Finance News publication, Motor Finance ( Consumer Motor Finance) do not give full details. Lloyd's TSB Autolease, Leasedrive Velo, Lombard Vehicle Management and CLM, all decribed battery leasing a an in-house marketing concept by Renault. Leaseplan brokerage UK, ( part of the giant LeasePlan Corporation N.V 50% owned by Volkswagen Bank GmbH and 50% by Fleet Investments B.V.) advises it's working with Renault on accommodating Renaults battery leasing. VRL is usually a very definitive source, and subscription are quite economical at only £374 But why don't you drop by your local Renault dealer, and ask for a copy of the battery lease contract, and post it as reference for everyone on ABG ? If nothing else, it would give an insight into Renaults battery pricing.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Marco: Why you assume that people would lease batteries in the most disadvanatgeous way possible is beyoned me. Clearly the relevant period to calculate out the cost of the lease as against your purchase is for the period of the lease, not over ten years or whatever is the life of the battery. If you have any sense at all you will lease the battery for exactly the same period as the purchase agreement/lease of the car. Under those circumstances then the Zoe is clearly, as I have shown elsewhere, at least £1,000 cheaper per year than the Leaf, not counting the extra financing costs of the additional £11,000 you would pay for the Leaf. I agree that if you then wished to purchase the car life would be somewhat more complex, and it is not clear how that will be handled, but if you do what common sense dictates and make the most advantageous deal you can then you will be handing the car in anyway. The residuals for the main body of the car are shown to be around one third higher than for the diesel version for the Kangoo ZE. So, if you do enough miles, 9,000 or more, and want the car for 3-4 years, this is the cheapest way of doing it by far.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          (cont) Case 4: You buy either the Leaf or the Zoe with a view to keeping them long term. At the end of eight years then for 12,000 miles a year you have paid around £10,0000 in lease charges on the Zoe, assuming you have not gone for the option in Case 3 and bought a new battery by that time. That is still less than the extra £11,000 you have paid for the Leaf in the first place, considering most will have paid interest on the initial purchase price, but not of course on the battery lease. Both then have old cars, but at 12,000 a year the Leaf battery is exhausted for car use. What is the resale value of an 8 year old Leaf will it's battery finished? There is plenty of life in the car itself, so your realistic option is to buy a new battery. However unlike the Zoe the Leaf was not designed to accept other batteries, so you either buy a hack, or pay whatever Nissan feels like charging. I am not really commenting on the general principle of leasing versus buying, but it is perfectly clear that at present prices and with batteries with an effective life of around 100,000 miles the Zoe is the better buy under almost any circumstances. This could change if the prices did, or if the introduction of NMC batteries meant that the life was upped to around the same as for the car, and their greater energy density meant that further rapid advances in range were unlikely. At the moment if you want an electric car leasing the Renaults if both cheaper and more flexible than buying a Leaf, and flexibility is important in fields where things are changing fast. If you want a bigger car you can always go for the Fluence.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          BTW, Since Nissan have already told us that European production will reduce their costs by a third, I fully expect that they will alter their price, knocking off £4-5,000 and putting them in line with Renault, whose low prices seem to be the result of producing in Europe. I am commenting on prices as they stand, and at those prices leasing the battery from Renault is clearly the better option.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          @Marco. No one is paying me for doing a full analysis. Since I came up with similar figures to those who are I don't think I am doing too bad. As far as I can tell from your reply the answer to my question is that you have not seen the battery lease contract, and are simply making detailed comments on how their leases work without having actually seen it, no doubt based on similar leases, but since AFAIK there has never been a similar situation where there are two separate leases essentially without foundation. So IOW you have not seen the contract and are simply making assumptions.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Spec
          I've decided to run through a series of cases to see if you are ever better off buying the Leaf as opposed to the Zoe and leasing the batteries. Of course, one could argue that the Leaf is the better car, and a class above, as it is certainly much more expensive. Equally though others might prefer the foot shorter length of the Zoe for City traffic, whilst still providing reasonable accommodation and equal boot space. Case 1. The cars are both bought for a 3-4 year period. Under those circumstances the Zoe is around £1000-1500 cheaper per year depending on financing and with equal depreciation. Advantage Zoe. Case 2. You buy the Zoe for 3-4 years then trade in both the car and the battery. You buy the Leaf and with a view to keeping it for longer. This means that after the lease is up on the Zoe you can upgrade to whatever is about then, and with battery prices falling around 8% pa you will almost certainly be able to get more range if you want it, plus the Gordini version of the Zoe giving better performance will likely be out. This compares to the Leaf where after 4 years and 12,000 miles a year your battery will be half exhausted for car use, and you will be getting around 10% less range than you got when new. Induction charging may also have come in, and other doo-dads, which will only be available if at all as relatively expensive accessories on the old Leaf. Advantage Zoe. Case 3. You buy the Zoe and intend if you can to buy a battery pack when the guarantees are up and put it in the car, which you will keep. The Zoe was purpose designed to accept different packs, and chemistries, so there is no reverse engineering to do, and the battery management system was designed to allow this. Here are the preliminary specs: http://www.easybat.info/fileadmin/documents/D1.1_public_release_version.pdf This should mean that you can not only possibly buy a battery from Renault, but from anyone else who builds to those specs. If that does not work out and you can't get a good deal, you have not got any problems as you can still trade in the car and the battery if you don't get good terms, but there is a very real possibility or even probability that you will be able to do so. Plenty of Prius's have been converted by third parties to run as plug ins by hacking, without the benefit of a BMS which was specifically designed to allow other batteries. You battery at that stage is likely to cost you less than buying the same number of kwh now, and also to offer more range. Fortunately assuming a ten year battery life that would nicely go with the four years you have already had the car, IOW this purchased battery pack might be the only one you need to buy for the life of the car. Which leads nicely on to:
      goodoldgorr
      • 3 Years Ago
      Will it be compatible with the new sae plug standard ?
        • 3 Years Ago
        @goodoldgorr
        No becuause it will not suppert DC charging
          DaveMart
          • 3 Years Ago
          'In 2011, Nissan launched its own quick charger into Europe, available for less than €10,000 (Earlier post.) This CHAdeMo-compliant Direct Current (DC) Quick charger can deliver up to 50 kW of high voltage direct current (DC) electricity, and are also ‘AC-ready' to support the arrival of EVs from Alliance partner Renault designed to 43kW AC quick charge standards. The Renault-Nissan Alliance is promoting infrastructure deployment based on AC-DC Mix Quick Charger strategy. To jump-start full-scale commercial deployment, Nissan is giving 400 DC Quick chargers for free to cities and regions in Europe. ' http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/03/abb-20120328.html So the Nissan chargers will be compatible with the Renault's, and in the same link ABB informs us that they will make their chargers Zoe compatible. Sae is a different ball game, as nothing fits it at the moment, and the companies backing it have almost no electric vehicles on the road.
          skierpage
          • 2 Years Ago
          The SAE J1772 standard names "level 3 AC charging": more than 20 kW and allowing three-phase power, but I can't find out if the approved SAE combo-coupler actually supports this. The only benefit of the Mennekes plug originally pushed by the German car companies was its support for high-power three-phase AC, and now those same companies (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche, Volkswagen) have endorsed the new SAE plug standard. The best I can tell is Renault's 43 kW AC charger uses the RWE connector, aka Mennekes. Hmmm, Renault-Nissan are going their own way. As DaveMart points out, their advantage is they already have a fairly cheap AC-DC Mix Quick Charger for both the Leaf and Zoe, and they're already selling the most cars while everyone else is "standardizing".
          skierpage
          • 2 Years Ago
          I read http://www.ishavsveien.no/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Current_status_of_the_Combined_Charging_System_v1.2.pdf , and in Europe the "combined charging system" plops the two fat DC pins underneath the 7-pin Mennekes plug! (see slides 2 and 3). That's one way to get agreement on a universal standard... make it non-universal ;-) No wonder the Germans endorsed the standard, it just extends what they were already doing. So, the Renault does not support DC fast charging, but it supports high-power AC charging using the same Mennekes plug as the Germans have endorsed. I think the reality in Europe is that most public chargers will remain a "domestic receptacle in a waterproof box", charging your car at 3kW.
          DaveMart
          • 2 Years Ago
          Hi skier. Good spadework. Nissan is putting in 400 chargers to start the ball rolling in Europe. I am not sure that it matters too much how much the other car companies fool around, if Renault hit anything like their target of 150,000 Zoe cars a year, they should be able to force through a de facto standard. Messy though.
      diffrunt
      • 3 Years Ago
      always too many ifs, ands, & buts. kiss, where are you?
      RC
      • 3 Years Ago
      What's the Nissan LEAF chief complaint? its looks!
      Andy Smith
      • 3 Years Ago
      Probably one of my top 3 fave E.V's for sale along with the model S and Leaf. Gonna try and persuade my girlfriend to buy one.
      Spec
      • 2 Years Ago
      I'd love to see the Zoe offered for sale in the USA. Any chance of that?
        DaveMart
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Spec
        Hi Spec. As I said below: Nissan the last they told us had not decided what to offer as their 4th electric car. Since they obviously have considerable access to the design of the Zoe it seems that they might consider a version of that, and perhaps their battery leasing scheme if both prove successful, although I understand that in some states of the US there might be legal difficulties in leasing rather than selling the batteries. Also in the US the next size up sells better, with the Focus, for instance, more popular than the Fiesta.. Renault will definitely not export to the US, as that is not their area with the way Nissan/Renault carve up the globe, but runaway sales in Europe would make Nissan think about their own take on the Zoe vibe.
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