Remember all the way back to Monday, when "bricking" your pricey electronic gadget simply meant you needed to get a new iPhone to try and jailbreak? The electric vehicle world is still dissecting the charges that surfaced yesterday that a Tesla Roadster could be bricked – i.e., made inoperable – if the battery gets worn down to zero, as there are new questions cropping up about the motive behind the original article by Michael Degusta. That story continues to evolve, with Degusta now claiming that it was Tesla that leaked the name of Roadster owner #340, Max Drucker, who was a business partner of Degusta's and the source for some of the information in Degusta's original post.

As we noted when the story broke, though, something this big – an expensive EV battery dying – is something we would have expected to have heard about the first time it happened, not with the fifth car (as it being claimed). After all, people have been driving plug-in vehicles for decades, and "bricking" has not been a major (or even minor) issue among people who know what they're doing with an EV.

So we wanted to see if other EVs on the market might be susceptible to "bricking," now that EVs are slowly entering the mainstream. The world's most popular passenger EV, the Nissan Leaf, is apparently safe, as you can read after the jump.

Nissan's official statement reads:

The Nissan LEAF lithium-ion battery pack is the world's most advanced system and has been engineered to delivery outstanding, real-world performance for our customers. The Nissan LEAF battery pack will never discharge completely, thanks to an advanced battery management system designed to protect the battery from damage. One element of the battery management system is a failsafe wall that stops the battery from reaching zero state-of-charge, even after a period of unplugged storage. Globally, there are more than 22,000 LEAFs on the road that have driven more than 30 million miles, without any incidents.

Nissan has always been proud of the Leaf pack, even when some said the pack was under-engineered. Still, Nissan does make it clear that the battery needs to be taken care of. In the Leaf's battery warranty information, it says that to prevent damage to the battery, "Do not

The Li-ion battery discharges gradually if the vehicle is parked for a long time.

leave your vehicle for over 14 days where the Li-ion battery available charge gauge reaches a zero of near zero state of charge." The car's manual adds, "The Li-ion battery discharges gradually if the vehicle is parked for a long time. Nissan recommends charging the Li-ion battery every 3 months using the long life mode charging method to keep the Li-ion battery in good condition. Do not leave the Li-ion battery fully discharged or with a very low charge level for a long period of time." Nissan's Katherine Zachary told AutoblogGreen that "Parasitic load reduces state of charge after periods of unplugged storage. However, it can't dip below usable KW's, which is less than the 24 KWs on board."



We also heard from Coda Automotive's Larkin Hill, who said the all-electric Sedan's battery management system (BMS) was designed from the beginning to avoid bricking the car. We "have a BMS system that is designed to protect the high-voltage battery, and the system will shut down prior to complete depletion," she said. There are a lot of variables about how long a Coda can sit without being plugged in, she said, but the manual has similar recommendations about leaving it plugged in when it won't be driven for extended periods of time.

The only thing you can let sit for months on end is an antique with no moving parts.

Hill then made a point that is getting a bit lost in the kerfuffle: pretty much every single thing needs maintenance, whether it's a car, a house or people. "The only thing you can let sit for months on end is an antique with no moving parts," she said. For an everyday car like the Coda, that is supposed to be driven in cold weather or hot weather, that means following the recommendations. For example, when the temperature climbs over 120 or drops below freezing (even if the is just parked overnight), the Coda should be plugged in to activate the thermal management system. In other words, take care of your things, people.

Questions about the Mitsubishi i and the Ford Focus Electric have thus far gone unanswered.


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    • 1 Second Ago
  • 79 Comments
      SVX pearlie
      • 2 Years Ago
      Once again, ABG fails to do basic research. The Smart ED uses a Tesla-sourced battery pack, so it almost certainly can suffer the exact same "bricking" problem as the Tesla Roadster. Granted that the Smart ED is probably the stupidest EV on the market, with half the utility of a Leaf, but at a Volt price, nevertheless, it's still a Tesla-based EV.
        2 Wheeled Menace
        • 2 Years Ago
        @SVX pearlie
        Once again, SVX pearlie fails to understand anything about lithium battery self-discharge and the parasitic drain that is common to all cars, even after having it explained to him half a dozen times..
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @2 Wheeled Menace
          2WM, I think the comprehension issue is on your end. If other OEMs can protect their packs, how come Tesla can't? If other OEMs can educate the consumer where their car is clearly different and catastrophic outcomes are possible, how come Tesla fails? WRT Lithium, how come you couldn't rebut Rotation's question on why his lithium-powered iPod of 5 years ago worked just fine from 0% SOC? From all of this, Tesla is the outlier, and your championing their inferior product doesn't serve the EV community at all.
        • 2 Years Ago
        @SVX pearlie
        SVX, you said that since the battery is the same, the other vehicle would be subject to the same problems as a Tesla - That's not technically true. The engineering problem Tesla really failed to address is shutting off normal parasitic loads entirely when the battery drops below maintenance levels. The cars could use the same battery pack, but if one properly manages low-level operation and the other does not, one will brick in relatively short time while the other does not. Technically they could all brick eventually, as the battery naturally drains even with absolutely 0 load, but with the parasitics turned off that drain would take a MUCH longer time. For clarity - the problem is that a li-ion battery left at 0 charge for extended periods will lose capacity to recharge. So if the car naturally drains to 0 in a couple weeks, then spends a month at zero, this is BAD and very damaging. On the other hand, if the car gets to 5-10% in a couple weeks, then shuts off all parasitic loads, it may take another month or more before it even hits 0. Of course, once it does it's just as bad as the tesla, but this very extended time before hitting 0 makes a huge difference. Meanwhile, I find it thoroughly amusing that just before the Leaf launch Tesla's owner made all kinds of press stink about how the Leaf batteries were poorly designed - but since launch testing has shown the tesla batteries are more succeptible to overheating... and now bricking! ... while Nissan has proper battery management to avoid that as much as possible. I suppose Leaf has an innate demographic advantage, though, as well; Tesla's price/performance naturally targets it toward the demographic which is more likely to use it as a "toy" car, where a leaf is almost certainly going to be driven (and therefore charged) on a day-to-day basis.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          I agree SVX Pearlie. M-B contracts the engineering services of Tesla. Surely the M-Bs have very similar behavior to the Teslas. I guess part of the question is which Teslas though, is their BMS more like the older Roadster BMS or did Tesla use part of what they already were learning and used in the Model S?
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          Do you think that Mercedes developed an all-new EV drivetrain and BMS system for Smart ED, or do you think they took the Tesla system in toto, right off the shelf? If Benz were doing the heavy lifting, they'd end up with something engineered at the level of the Leaf and Volt. Initial sale would be December, 2013 with real production starting to ramp right as the 2nd gen Leaf and Volt hit the market. So in the interest of time, one assumes that Benz bought Tesla drivetrains basically as-is, with the only tweak being to repackage for the Smart chassis. The idea that Benz developed an all-new BMS for the Smart ED is laughable.
        EZEE
        • 2 Years Ago
        @SVX pearlie
        Hey give ol'sebastian credit - he reframed from a gratuitous shot against the GOP. I was surprised we didn't read: 'although George bush was no where to be found, it was learned that two reporters for Fox News were 213 miles from the second tesla, that bricked. Coincidence? We think not!'
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          Aside from the original ABG article (by Seb?), it's been pure crap thereafter. And even that was at least a full day after Jalop broke the story. It is shocking how much better (timely, less biased, more factual & insightful) a news site Japop is proving themselves to be on this story compared to AB/ABG.
      JakeY
      • 2 Years Ago
      "The Nissan LEAF battery pack will never discharge completely, thanks to an advanced battery management system designed to protect the battery from damage. One element of the battery management system is a failsafe wall that stops the battery from reaching zero state-of-charge, even after a period of unplugged storage." I'd like them to define "never" and the length of the "period of unplugged storage". In any case, your Leaf's battery warranty is voided if: "Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge." http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/images/f/fe/2012-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf I don't suggest people try testing their claim for that reason. Any battery can be "bricked" if it stays at zero charge for extended periods of times. No amount of software or circuitry can prevent this. The only difference is how fast it reaches zero charge and how long it takes to "brick" it. So the core issue is definitely not isolated to the Tesla Roadster. The only difference is the the Roadster may have quicker discharge because of subsystems and the BMS that runs even when the car is off. Even then, the worse case quoted by the Roadster manual says ~11 weeks (50% in first week, then 5%/week after that) from full to indicated zero (then probably a couple weeks after that before being "bricked"). I suspect the quick drop to 50% is both from the characteristic of lithium cells (much quicker drop when near full) and the BMS optimizing for long term life (battery lasts longer when kept away from being full). Lithium batteries tend to have negligible self-discharge at room temperature (self-discharge is faster at higher temperatures) although protection circuitry can accelerate that rate (sometimes built into the lithium cell directly). http://media.theunderstatement.com/021_roadster_manual_p5-2.pdf
        Rotation
        • 2 Years Ago
        @JakeY
        I'm with you, never is a very long time. But I don't agree any battery can be "bricked". Just because a LIon reaches 0% SOC doesn't mean it can't be recharged. A Tesla Roadster cannot be, but perhaps a LEAF can?
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          2WM: I tried to look up our differences on "overdischarge". I'm look at my copy of Battery Management Systems, Design by Modelling (Bergveld, Kruijt, Notten) and in section 4.5.1 it speaks of discharge and overdischarge. In the text it refers to overdischarging as having two stages, one as the potential approaches 0V and the other after. The 2nd is the one I refer to as overdischarging, the 1st is a period where the battery still has positive potential but so little that the two electrodes inside start to undergo similar chemical reactions instead of opposite ones. In the accompanying graph it shows all positive voltages as "discharge region" and 0 to negative as "overdischarge". Note that all the overdischarge section is all due to power draw in this case (1C rate). It appears the terminology isn't crystal clear, even in a reference book like this. But either way the real damage (pressure increase/outgassing and temperature increase) all occurs after the battery is fully discharged and is being reverse charged due to draw. Now, this graph is from a NiCd battery, not a LIon, so I can only assert my own findings, the info here doesn't back them up. Other sections in the book basically punt on describing LIon damage at 0% SOC, going so far as saying "The origin of self-discharge in LI-ion batteries is not exactly known. It consists of an irreversible part and an reversible part" but not going on and giving any idea of the proportions between the two parts.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          This isn't about overdischarge. Any decently designed system will stop drawing from cells once they get below 2.7V. Most battery packs contain protection circuitry that disconnects the outputs at 2.4V. So the battery in a properly designed EV isn't going to get discharged to 0V, nor will it get "overdischarged". It will get to 2.7V or 2.4V and then it will self-discharge down to 0V over time. A cell will not "over self-discharge" itself. It stops self-discharging at 0V, it goes no further. There is no reason a LEAF has to have "brick mode" to prevent fires. Disconnecting the output of the pack until a charging current is applied (which a protection circuit will do) prevents fire as well or better than any "brick mode" could. The pack is now disconnected and will self-discharge. If it blows up in this situation, it will blow up in any situation. And as to blowing up when charging, that depends on your battery management system. You can trickle charge a LIon cell back to life, until you get to 2.7V where you can then switch to a more normal charge mode (CC/CV). I don't know that Nissan's system can do this, but there is no overriding reason why it cannot and thus no overriding reason why Nissan has to "enable brick mode" to prevent fires.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          2WM: I'm used to overdischarging referring to when a battery in a series string is reverse charged because of discharging while it was already near 0% SOC. The current being forced through it in the reverse direction of a charging current can attempt to negatively charge the cell. This will damage any cell rapidly. This is not happening in this case. You are just plain dead wrong about trickle charging from 0% SOC on LIons/Li polys. It does not cause thermal runaway. If it were, charging systems out there would refuse to do it. It's done often, in fact I'm doing it right now. See my post above talking about charging my shuffle. If it causes thermal runaway, why do charging solutions like below: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/4077fa.pdf charge batteries from 0V? Why does the protection circuit on cells you buy which opens at 2.4V re-close for charging if it causes most cells to go into thermal runaway? Why did Linear design a chip like this for this purpose where the revive from 0V function cannot even be turned off? Yes, the battery is not happy to be left at 0V. It would prefer to be left at 65% or so. But that doesn't mean if you leave it at 0% it is now useless. Your major stroke analogy is overstated, but at its core there is some truth, yes the battery likely will not have the same capacity as before, but then again, charging it or discharging it also reduces battery capacity too! In the end, a customer would be FAR happier to have a pack that came back from 0% SOC and has only 97% the capacity as before instead of having to pay $41K to get a new pack. A low C feature is not just a smart thing to add, it is a common thing and just because Tesla doesn't have it doesn't mean no one else can. A pack that reaches 0% SOC can be revived, Tesla just doesn't do it. Maybe other EV companies do.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          It is amusing, but a $50 "smart" RC car batter charger incorporates multiple charging & conditioning profiles and charges the pack safely and smartly. RC car battery chargers with thermal sensors have been available for over 20 years. Here's a typical RC charger; http://www.teamnovak.com/products/chargers/millennium_pro/index.html "Novak’s exclusive Battery Conditioning allows effective charging of battery packs, even packs that have been shorted over a long period of time." IOW, this $70 charger can recharge a pack which has been kept at absolute 0% SOC for extended periods of time.
          2 Wheeled Menace
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          It depends on the chemistry. Tesla is using a chemistry that is extremely likely to cause a fire that would make a lambo rear engine bay fire jealous, if overdischarged then charged. If you know what you are doing, you can nurse some batteries, even the potentially explosive ones, back to health after an overdischarge, if the discharge wasn't too deep. A nissan pack would be more likely to puff up and vent gasses than catch on fire. But you still want to prevent that ( will fill up a garage and potentially a home as well with products of lithium oxidization ), thus they will have the brock mode enabled asw ell.
          2 Wheeled Menace
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          "So the battery in a properly designed EV isn't going to get discharged to 0V, nor will it get "overdischarged". It will get to 2.7V or 2.4V and then it will self-discharge down to 0V over time." Overdischarged = going past the LVC point. So yes, it will get overdischarged. That low voltage cutoff is well defined for a reason. After 0% SOC, you are doing irreversible damage to the cells. At 0V, they are goners unless we are talking about the only exception; nickel cadmium. At best, the cells will perform at a fraction of how they did before. fire/smoke does not occur when a battery is being overdischarged, it occurs when a battery is overdischarged then charged. So if you have a volatile chemistry, then you need this "bricked" protection to prevent someone's house from being burned down etc. Yeah; in some situations you can charge with a very low C rate to revive a cell, but if the damage is bad, and the chemistry is volatile, you've made a potential fireball that could go off at any time. At best with a tamer chemistry, you basically revived a battery that had a major stroke and won't be the same again. If Nissan ( or any other manufacturer ) does not have this kind of protection, they either are 100% confident that their battery does not go into thermal runway ( most batteries do ) during this condition, or they are just plain stupid as that's a major liability. A low C rate charge mode would be a smart feature to add.. but.. it is a liability in most cases.
        EZEE
        • 2 Years Ago
        @JakeY
        Holy Eff. SVX can make fun of me for not knowing this about batteries of this type (I took a fun shot at him when he said he was a mechanical engineer so he is entitled) but wow. One of my ideas on electrics is for the older people to use them in Florida (since many already do - I have posted a web cam like of the villages, where you can see all sorts of electrics tooling around). This would involve people leaving them for months at a time. ICE cars (well, and boat engines as well) need tone 'conditioned' prior to storage, but this.... They need to add a trickle charge/maintenance cycle or some such, so they can be plugged in, but not run up the electric bill or cause a fire hazard, or over charge. Thanks, so much, to the smart kids here. This is real education.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          @SVX The roadster in question is 1st generation #340. So everything is new on that car. I'd go so far as to call that an experimental car. Tesla's response to this situation at: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it makes it clear to me that Tesla is adjusting as quick as they can to consumer needs. The Model S can go for a year unplugged.
          Grendal
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          @SVX No. I don't see any wrongdoing on the part of Tesla. As far as I am aware, they warned their early adopters of what to do. Again, in my opinion, I don't see Tesla doing anything except continue to improve their tech and make what could potentially be a problem get better. I might feel different if I spent $100K on the car. But, if I dropped the car off at an airport for a couple months I would not have been surprised to find a problem with my car when I got back.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          I already poked back at you for being EE vs ME, besides, it's not like you spent any less effort in school than I did. I have no issue with EVs, and I expect that cars will go plug-in over the next decade. What I do have an issue is with EV evangelists promoting every flavor of EV as magically superior, even when clear flaws exist. Instead of papering it over, and telling people to ignore the man behind the curtain, how about people simply acknowledge the elephant in the room for what it is, and work to fix the damn problem. In this case, Tesla fcked up. Tesla under-engineered the BMS system, overran the pack, failed to incorporate SOC cutoffs and 0% SOC recovery. This is clear evidence of amateurs simply throwing a big battery and electric motor in a Lotus chassis, without proper engineering to understand potential failure modes and mitigate potential risks. And then, they fail to properly and completely educate the customer as to how their product is different, and that there are catastrophic failure modes which easily occur. this is compounded by Tesla looking at the world through a PR / Marketing lens, rather than addressing the actual problem. I look at Nissan / GM / Subaru, and look at how they address engineering and product deficiencies. Nissan and GM both did proper engineering on their cars. Nissan has a proper BMS and engineered their pack so it cannot fail this way. GM reserves a huge chunk of their pack for similar protection. Subaru put a hold on all sales to address defects before they reach customer hands. Do it right, and EVs won't be viewed as amateur hour crap.
          SVX pearlie
          • 2 Years Ago
          @EZEE
          Yes, it's gen 1. If it were a gasburner, you don't think there would have been a recall?
      JakeY
      • 2 Years Ago
      @SVX pearlie @Rotation I see you guys already have come to the conclusion that the issue is Tesla's BMS (without knowing the details of how it works; for example, do you guys already know there isn't a cut-off at a certain voltage or that the Tesla doesn't already use cells with PCBs built in?). I don't see enough evidence to suggest the Leaf's system is any more robust, only that the time to discharge may be longer (and according to Nissan it does exist). After all, the Leaf's battery warranty is voided after 14 days at or near 0 charge (the other battery warranty terms are exactly the same too, such as the warning against high and low temperatures). And for all the talk about "reviving" batteries with a trickle charge, there is no evidence the Leaf has that capability either. So I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion somehow Tesla's engineers were shoddy and that the issue is isolated to Tesla without actually examining the BMS of the existing EVs. And for the Volt example, that's a different case. The Volt is a PHEV, and the huge buffer on the bottom (and top) is primarily because of cycling concerns, plus the Volt always has the ICE available to charge the battery (no plug needed).
        Rotation
        • 2 Years Ago
        @JakeY
        I'm with you in general. There is no information that says any BMS currently can recharge a multi-cell pack from 0% SOC. Although I suspect it is technically possible, it's unclear if any EV out there actually did it. I'm glad Tesla has reduced the power draw of their BMS in the Model S to extend the time to reach 0% SOC to up to a year (depending on how much charge you start with). This is a big improvement. I don't know about shoddy, but Tesla's engineers fell short in many ways. Ask anyone whose Roadster was built with a gearbox permanently locked in top gear. There are a lot of new issues with a new technology vehicle like this, Tesla has not managed to avoid all of them, so despite paying 3x more for their car than a comparable Lotus you actually get a less well sorted vehicle. And then there were the hidden price hikes... They're playing a tough game and playing it pretty well, but as a customer I have to think of what these things mean to me. And they aren't all roses.
          JakeY
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          "I meant to say there is no information that says any car manufacturer's BMS currently can recharge a multi-cell pack from 0% SOC. Plenty of other BMSes can do it." I think you are talking about something different. I'm talking about a BMS that can "revive" a multi-cell pack that was clearly overdischarged for a significant amount of time (for weeks or more) AKA the pack that was certified as "bricked" by Tesla. I see people talking about how the pack is likely revive-able if Tesla designed their BMS better. I question if there is a BMS out there that can do that, even if it was possible to "revive" the cells individually using careful charging. As for recharging from "0% SOC", the Roadster clearly can do so. I know there are owners who've driven the Roadster to 0% (by switching to range mode), had to wait some time for the tow truck to come and transport it, plugged it back in to charge, and it was fine. However, if they had left it unplugged for weeks afterwards, the story likely would have been different. "There are a lot of new issues with a new technology vehicle like this, Tesla has not managed to avoid all of them, so despite paying 3x more for their car than a comparable Lotus you actually get a less well sorted vehicle." I question that. The number of recalls for the Lotus Elise doesn't suggest that the Lotus is any better "sorted" (one of which bled over to the Roadster).
          JP
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          There is no way to "fix" a damaged cell, no BMS magic can do such. A lithium ion cell that sits at zero percent SOC for an extended period cannot be recovered since there is physical internal cell damage that cannot be reversed.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          I meant to say there is no information that says any car manufacturer's BMS currently can recharge a multi-cell pack from 0% SOC. Plenty of other BMSes can do it.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Rotation
          JakeY: There are BMSes that can charge from 0% SOC. Plenty of devices have them. There is no evidence any car manufacturer uses one though. We know Tesla doesn't, we don't know of anyone else who certainly does. I'm not ruling it out, just saying no one has come forth and gone on record as doing it. 0 miles remaining is not 0% SOC. Tesla reports the pack as empty before it is actually empty so that you don't get down to 0% SOC because batteries don't like to go to 0% SOC. As to "better sorted", I said the Tesla isn't better sorted. You say the Elise isn't better sorted. These statements are not contradictory. I say the Roadster costs about 3X more and is about the same in terms of development and quality. JP: Been through this a million times. Read some more posts on here. I charged a cell that had been dead for 5 years. I'm not saying the capacity isn't reduced from the time spent flat, but reduced capacity is better than no ability to work at all and a $41K bill. People are greatly overstating the physical damage LIons suffer when left flat for long periods of time.
        SVX pearlie
        • 2 Years Ago
        @JakeY
        "I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion somehow Tesla's engineers were shoddy " Based on the data presented and the known failure mode, vs commonly foreseeable action for cars, it is easy for me to draw that conclusion. That is, it is not uncommon for cars to be placed into storage for some period of time, and they do just fine thereafter. It is not uncommon for cars to run out of gas, either. These actions should not result in catastrophic damage. If they do, then there should be a specific set of "long term storage" instructions. Lacking specific instruction to the contrary, the default assumption is that the car should behave exactly like any other car. Now compare with the Volt catching fire after the charged pack was damaged and the car being left inverted for months... Car upside-down for months is not a foreseeable action. And a damaged lithium pack is a clearly-known fire danger for any EV.. Failure to safely discharge before "storing" damaged and inverted is a bad decision by NHTSA.
          JP
          • 2 Years Ago
          @SVX pearlie
          Running out of charge will not hurt a Tesla vehicle, as long as you recharge it in a reasonable amount of time. You don't usually run out of gas in you ICE and leave it sitting on the side of the road for months. Tesla did provide specific long term storage instructions which said keep it plugged in, clearly stated in the manual, AND in a document stating as much that each customer signed at the time of purchase.
      Rich
      • 2 Years Ago
      ....maybe Tesla Engineers aren't as smart as they want you to believe......
        Aaron Schwarz
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Rich
        This guy did this intentionally knowing that it would brick his battery: as a stunt: follow the money. He is affiliated with other people who stand to benefit from this "bricking event"
      Dan Frederiksen
      • 2 Years Ago
      since Tesla is doing other cars for other car makers there might be some frantic calls going on these days. this could have far reaching implications. I'd recommend getting rid of that particular sloppiness asap. it's not something you want to have attached to your brand. it makes range anxiety look like hypochondria by comparison. with range anxiety the car just stops if you weren't paying attention. with brick anxiety Tesla wants forty grand : ) Elon Musk is running around Tesla HQ like a samurai with sword drawn : )
      Linnear
      • 2 Years Ago
      @Rotation "so despite paying 3x more for their car than a comparable Lotus" - so a new Lotus Elise costs $36,000? That's a heck of a bargain, but I'm skeptical about that pricing.
        Rotation
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Linnear
        You can't get a Tesla Roadster for $108K. I know, I had friends who reserved them for that price and Tesla came back and jerked them around. They stated that previously included items like the high-speed charging cable, rims and even the warranty were not included in that price. This angered customers. Musk references it in "Revenge of the Electric Car". The Elise was about $40K when I looked. Maybe it went up after it debuted. You can't buy either car right now, so I guess it's kind of academic.
        Dan Frederiksen
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Linnear
        you're quite right. it's well above 50k$ for basic elise. that's crazy it's a small car with a modest 1.8L engine. it should cost less than 20
      EVnerdGene
      • 2 Years Ago
      reading this blog, I'd call it psycobabble, but it's not psyco related technobabble, but it's not techno just babble
      Aaron Schwarz
      • 2 Years Ago
      You can break anything if you try hard enough. It is the engineering teams obligation to design the ESS and BSM to be idiot/ fool proof : just because someone has enough money to buy a roadster does not mean they have the mental faculties to read and understand the owners manual or to exercise common sense. I hope that Nissan and other EV makers are paying attention.
        Chris M
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Aaron Schwarz
        It's impossible to make something fool-proof, because fools are so darn ingenious.
      brucec039
      • 2 Years Ago
      The Nissan wording sounded like doublespeak. "It can't go to zeo, but don't let it go to zero. It could damage your battery" "Not that it'd kill your car, but don't go 14 days w/o charging". Obviously people need to be careful with new technology. But what about accidental discharge? 1. You have two homes, you leave your Tesla plugged in at one for use there but you spend the summer at another home. Meanwhile, the circuit breaker or GFI trips due to a lightning strike or some other unforseen occurance. You get back to your Tesla to find it bricked. 2. You go on a trip and miscalculate the mileage. You are on a lonely stretch of highway hoping to find an exit where you can plug in. You run out of juice 100' from the exit, which by the way has nothing anyway but trees. Will it brick? Will it brick if it takes you till the next afternoon to get it towed and plugged in? I prefer to let the early adapters work all this out. But it's immoral to subsidize $100K cars for wealthy people with taxpayer dollars. Here in my state total tax credits are $12,500. Enough to buy a nice used economy car that gets 40mpg.
      Grendal
      • 2 Years Ago
      The Model S can sit for a year without damaging the batteries. The Roadster in question is a 1st generation model (#340) and doesn't have a lot of the systems that later versions do.
      • 2 Years Ago
      "Bricking" - funny expression, never heard of it before : )
      Robert DeDomenico
      • 2 Years Ago
      "something this big – an expensive EV battery dying – is something we would have expected to have heard about the first time it happened, not with the fifth car (as it being claimed). " Why has Tesla neither confirmed nor denied the existence of the other 4 cases? And yet, here on this 'green' blog, you challenge the integrity of Mr. Degusta? My inclinations are based on what is presented before me, but you, Mr. Sebastian Blanco, appear biased. My conclusion is that all 5 cases are likely true. I can see by the Tesla owner's manual, their FAQ on the Model S, and their response to this story, that they have been and continue to be inconsistent and vague about the specific risks involved in relying on their Li-Ion battery technology in particular. This I expect will not be well received on this blog, so I offer it with this consolation: I wasn't considering a Tesla purchase anyway.
        Grendal
        • 2 Years Ago
        @Robert DeDomenico
        Tesla's response is pretty clear: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it The Model S can sit for a year without damaging the batteries.
          Rotation
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Grendal
          That's a non-responsive response. We're not talking about a Model S here. We're talking about a vehicle people already bought and costs even more than a Model S. Tesla is dodging the issue instead of answering it.
          Dan Frederiksen
          • 2 Years Ago
          @Grendal
          a year if at 50% charge. what about 10%.. a year at 50 is nowhere near good enough. it should simply not be possible that the car will continue to drain the battery until death. and of course the Nissan Leaf wont do that either. if they could change it before launch they probably should but it might be so ingrained in how they designed the BMS that they wont dare try
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