• Dec 29th 2009 at 6:57PM
  • 50
Lexus LFA - Click above for high-res image gallery

We've been hearing rumblings about a Lexus GS F for over two years, with the most recent report indicating that the maxed-out super sedan was put on hold until the economic climate reached a balmy 75-degrees. However, the rumormongers at Japan's BestCar seem to think that the GS F is back on track, and not only that, it'll be powered by a detuned version of the LFA's V10.

Although that sounds simply insane at first blush, the possibility of a 500+ hp V10 powerplant coincides with an initial report released way back in September of 2007. Not only that, but the GS F's closest competition -- the BMW M5 -- uses a bent-ten as well. However, even if Toyota is trying to spread out the costs of the LFA's development, with BMW's bahn burner about to get the twin-turbocharged V8 from the BMW X6/X5 M and Mercedes-Benz' decision to drop its 6.2-liter engines in favor of force-fed eights, it could be bad timing... or a cunning marketing move, depending on your motivational perspectives.

Speculation aside, if Toyota does pull the trigger and fit a reworked version of the 552-hp, 4.8-liter 1LR-GUE V10 into its staid sedan, expect the performance to strip the paint clean off it's swollen fascia while leaving you over $100,000 lighter in the process.

[Source: BestCar via Carscoop]

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    • 1 Second Ago
      • 5 Years Ago
      I would love to say, "I'd get it." But that statement ignores the reality that I do not have the means to purchase - let alone maintain - a specimen so fine. One day, I hope to be able to walk into the Lexus dealership and say, "tell me about the GS-F." I want to make the choice between the M5, E63 AMG, or GS-F. Even more than that, I want to walk into the Honda dealership and inquire about that new NSX.
      However, these sensations are not for me. I am a fan of large cars, though I can afford them, I drive small cars. I am too frugal and demand too much value to get out the of the sub-16k area.
      So Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes, I beg of you, make these cars so good that I cannot avoid them.
        • 5 Years Ago
        I can barely understand his writing. Maybe you two are on the same messed up wavelength.
        JDM Life
        • 5 Years Ago

        If you couldnt understand what he said...then thats on you ! lmao....you must really be a "pigeon" then....hehehehe


        Again...well said. Theres different ways of getting the point across...I dont need to write like a english college professor to prove a point. If I was getting tested...my writing would be very different...and VERY boring.
        JDM Life
        • 5 Years Ago
        Very, very well said my friend.

        I wish more people on this site spoke and think like you do...
      • 5 Years Ago
      this is a top tier supercar engine that was designed to go into a $350000 limited production car. I don't think toyota can make this engine cheap enough for the gs to keep it competitive price wise with similar cars.
        • 5 Years Ago
        My initial thoughts exactly!
      • 5 Years Ago
      A low torque high RPM sewing machine in a fat pudgy sedan against all these torque monsters? I don't see how it would work unless they change the internals of the V10 to have more torque but then what's the point? Sure would be cool once you got the damn thing rolling but by that time you already got blown out of the water.
        • 5 Years Ago
        If BMW got away with their high revving, low torque (384lb ft. @ 6100 rpms) V10 in the pig heavy M5 & M6 cars while Merc AMG & Caddy were putting out torque monsters, I see no reason why it should be such a difficult task for Lexus. Not everyone buys cars on raw numbers, because raw numbers almost never tell the complete story. In the LF-A, the V10 puts out 398lb ft. @ 6000 rpm... which means slightly more torque at slightly lower revs than BMW's mill. And I'm sure with revised intake and exhaust, they'll eke more torque out of it... but because it's a Lexus it's a HUGE problem, isn't it? You know, sometimes the blind bias you guys show is quite sickening.
        • 5 Years Ago

        The BMW didn't make very good use of it's V10, and they're going back to less F1 style propulsion. Got beaten up on by a 911 with only 380bhp. The M5 and M6 were interesting cars for having a V10 in place of the traditional V8's, but the V8's were more effective for the purpose of hauling modified large sedans around.

        The LFA is a low-slung rocket with plenty of downforce, and ultra light construction, with wheels pushed out all the way to the edges. If the next GS is going to be that, then maybe, but I don't think they'll change the format too much and make the GS begin at 70 or 80,000 dollars, when it starts at 50 now.

        Also, the GSF would probably be more expensive than any of its competition, if they used the 1LR-GUE engine in it. I really don't think that Lexus will release a GS that costs 200,000 dollars or something crazy like that. The GS is not a halo car, and needs to actually make money instead of lose it. I don't think people realize just how special the LFA's engine is, or they'd never consider dropping it in the engine bay of a big sedan that's 1/8 the price of the LFA.
        • 5 Years Ago
        Assuming that Toyota wasn't stretching the truth when they say the V10 is shorter than the 2gr-fe V6, the LF-A intake and exhaust manifolding should fit. Variable backpressure muffler also.
        So 550hp is reasonable.
        With the 8 speed automatic, geared so the transmission maximum input speed isn't exceeded. Dump the torque converter for a wet clutch (ala M-B 7g-tronic MCT)
        4-120 (125 if you want to overrev, past 9K. Only if it helps the 1/4 :)
        7-211mph 8700
        8-198mph 6800
        • 5 Years Ago
        "I don't see how it would work unless they change the internals of the V10 to have more torque but then what's the point?"

        Maybe lexus knows something Audi, BMW, and Mercedes don't?
      • 5 Years Ago
      bring it Lexus! make M5, E63 AMG, Jag XFR etc, obsolete clownmobiles!
        • 5 Years Ago
        no need to go to circus to see clowns!

        lots of badgewhore-new-money-immigrants-wanna-look-good-at-the-mall-driving-eurotrash-clowns around my area!
        • 5 Years Ago
        If those are clownmobiles, I'd be interested in finding out what circus you go to...
      • 5 Years Ago
      It would be a bad move, in my opinion.

      The current GS is too much of a pig to make a good sports sedan, and it just doesn't have the cachet to pull in the sales. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think just a breathed-on V8 would make the most sense.

      Getting the V10 to Lotus for the new Esprit - great move. We need a light 550 hp Lotus for under $150K.

      Besides, how many IS-Fs have they sold? They've got as much of a halo as they're going to get from that...
        • 5 Years Ago
        Wow JDM, chill. I'm the guy who's family has 4 Lexus cars. I drive an IS, and I've been in more Lexus's than you can imagine. A GS can't make use of a formula one style powerplant, because most of the power comes at the top RPM's, which, if you drove a Lexus sedan, you'd comprehend. The IS and GS are very similar cars. The GS is larger and slightly heavier. It's also a bit quieter inside at high speed.

        The LFA's engine isn't the kind of engine you could just drop into any car, and make it easily work either. It's a bespoke engine for a bespoke car. It'd be massively expensive to put that exact engine in a GS. Also, since it doesn't have the same kind of drivetrain as the LFA does, and isn't nearly as low to the ground, or as light, or have the dynamic balance of the LFA, it wouldn't perform like an LFA.

        Also, a "detuned" version of the LFA's engine would not only be a disgrace, but it'd also lack the torque required to haul a 3600lb car. As an avid multiple Lexus owner and driver, I think the LFA's engine should remain in that unique model. It's a halo car, that doesn't need to be directly sharing its halo with any other cars. Derivitive technologies implemented from that engine, into a GSF would be great.

        CRFP body pannels, the engine bay to cabin acoustic devices and surge tank, the throttle body configuration and remote reservior suspension system would all be at home on a GSF with a re-tuned 2UR-GSE instead of a 1LR-GUE.

        And for your information, the BMW doesn't make very good use of that V10. A lot of the power goes to waste. As they said on Top Gear, when comparing it to cars with 100 less bhp, that were beating up on it on the Isle of Man, "So what's the other 100 horsepower doing?" "It's going to run the computers Richard."

        F1 style V10's in big sedans are a waste of time. Why do you think BMW is going back to a V8 M5? It's not all about fuel economy. It's about low end torque, which is required by heavy things like sedans. That's why the ISF has a 5L V8 instead of the 4.8L V10.
        JDM Life
        • 5 Years Ago
        Is it a "BAD MOVE" because its a Lexus?

        Because thats what im getting. The next M5 is coming and no one is complaing....

        I thought this was a "enthusiast" site? Or have EVERYONE here blinded by hate of the badge... Did yu forget why Lexus is bulding this car? Why they built the LF-A and IS-F? they built it for US...the people who care about performance...but yet people like you STILL complain. A BMW M and Merc AMG sedan is fine....but AHHH HELL when Lexus is going to do they get all from some negative comments....which i will NEVER understand.

        You complain about teh ES and other Lexus model no being performance cars...okay problem solved...IS-F, LF-A and now a GS-F...but that still doesnt stop the cry babies does it?

        A performance car is a performance car no matter the badge. I feel MOST of the people here have lost their way when it come to cars.

        And you bring up the IS-F and how many is on the road....really does that even matter? How many performance cars do you see in your day comepared to regualer cars? For your info Lexus has moved more and more IS-F since they introduced it. I have seen 5 IS-F in NY alone. I know two people that own them. One is white one is blue and believe you me...the IS-F is no joke. This is teh MAIN reason i love the IS-F....when I do see one i stare or a while....when I see a M3? I dont take a second look. Some people like rare and different car...others like to follow the crowd. Everyone here is so caught up in their fantasy world that they forget in REAL LIFE 300HP is more then enough for street use.

        The GS-F is gonna be a BIG hit in the automotive world. Just like when the IS-F was relases everyone wanted to know about it. When Lexus dropped the LFA...the auto world was shocked. The GS-F is just gonna make that all better. I beat your preety penny that a IS-F get more stares and question about his car then that M3 driver. So Lexus DO BUILD the GS-F.

        Also...the currents GS is no "PIG" it would rip on the car i drive in every way from handling to speed. It handles very good and its nimble which is good enough because the main focus is Luxury and comfort in the GS so why would you blame it for being not as great a handler? That like saying the Lexus LS is too smooth....thats the idea...if thats what they built the car to do how is it that it becomes a bad thing? Why do people here think that their needs is every one else? That busniess man might like the comfort and luxury of the GS and smooth ride over the M5? People here think performance is ALL that matters....which is said.
        • 5 Years Ago
        This 552hp V10 is actually lighter and smaller then a Lexus 2GR-FSE V-6 engine.

        Which is why this engine is so special, going with a V8 will actually make this car heavier then this particular V10.

        Hate to cite a rival blog but the info is there:

        "The whole thing weighs less than 383 Lbs, is physically smaller than Lexus' own 3.5-liter V6 and can rev from idle to the 9,500 RPM rev limiter in 6/10ths of a second."

        For comparison, BMW's M5 Product Information Guide says that the M5's 5.0 liter V-10 weighs 529 lbs

        Either way, from a personal level, the Lexus GS design has never really interested me. Obviously, this "GS-F" will be on the updated model. Hope the new GS has the looks to match the engine.
        • 5 Years Ago
        @JDM Life.. Damn, take a pill.
        • 5 Years Ago

        Lexus needs to differentiate itself from its German rivals. Going with a V8, would make it another-run and actually add weight. If Lexus merely matches the performance of BMW, Mercedes, Audi then most will just ignore the GS-F like the IS-F. There needs to be some level of uniqueness.

        Either way we have to expect that the next M5 will make at least 550hp with gobs of torque (the RS6 is rumored to be producing around 572hp). There are multiple ways that Lexus could confront this. Forced-induction V8, forced-induction V10, or make a V10 and significantly drop the weight.

        Currently the M5 weighs around 4,000lbs, an N63 engine (twin-turbo V8) actually weighs more then the V10 fully dressed, but let's assume there is no increase in weight. For a V10 GS-F to compete the car would need to weigh around 3,700 lbs (which is 300 lbs lower then the GS350 and around the weight of an M3). Hard, but not impossible, if it uses the LFA transmission with the carbon-fiber drive shaft and other light weight bits around the car.

        Let's also consider that the V10 if made in larger volumes shouldn't be that disproportionately more expensive then the very low-volume 5.0 L V8 that is also built by Toyota-Yamaha. There are several cost-effect methods to increase torque of that unit such as longer-stroke or forced induction (supercharged/turbocharged). There are a lot of options available.
        JDM Life
        • 5 Years Ago

        "isn't really going to benefit from such a light engine"

        Im sorry...but when have being light when it comes to performance NOT a benefit ?

        "GS isn't going to be able to make use of the 9000 rpm redlining LFA engine"

        Then ummm..how does the M5 make use of it then? Their both cars. Stop maing such retared claims.

        "The LFA engine is designed specifically for the LFA, and matches its character."

        I do agree 100% with that tho....the LF-A shares nothing with any Lexus...so idk how they would go about putting that engine in the GS...they would have to build the car around the engine.. The GS seems more "AMG" like....but that doesnt mean the GS cant be a screamer either.

        If they out the LFA engine in the GS....the GS would be a complete different car as we know it... But as long as Lexus combines this extreme level of performance with their luxrious, reliable and well built qualites that they have always had and we have grown to know....this GS-F WILL be a winner. Any one can build a performance car....but the car has to be well rounded. Lexus has everything else right...everything. Once they get performance in the mix...their gonna be even harder to beat.
        • 5 Years Ago

        First, the transmission will likely need to be from the LFA, the current GS transmission will likely not be suitable for the V10. Hence the transmission will be by the rear-axle.

        The Aisin-Warner A7xx series transmission that is in the Lexus' isn't suitable for the V10. Even the AA80E is a poor match for the LFA engine. Maybe Lexus and Aisin does have a new front mounted transmission in store, but otherwise it'd be more wise to use what is available.

        Also, the vast majority of the cost of building a low-volume engine is in the R&D. Low-volume engines are by nature hand-built usually by one individual or a group. The materials costs are marginal between engines for car within that high price range.

        Low-volume engines are usually built in a "Cell manufacturing" fashion rather then a assembly line. Its a production method pioneered by Canon, where indiviuals or small groups form 'cells' taking responsibility for the product throughout the entire process of assembly. For low-volume production, assembly lines don't really make sense, there isn't the economies of scale to justify it.

        Nissan has a similar system with the GT-R VR38 engines, they are 'masterpiece' engines, in fact they are made individuals called 'takumi'/'masters' in clean rooms. A similar low-volume hand-built technique is employed by Toyota for their current 5.0L V-8 for their IS-F, as well as their 1GZ-FE 5.0L V-12 they made in the past.

        These aren't assembly line engines, there is a little more flexibility that is afforded to them in engine modification. I'm sure there are methods of increasing torque, tuning the engine to be more suitable for a saloon.

        I understand your point, the exact implementation from the LFA dropped into the GS isn't going to be suitable. However, there are many ways that the engine as well as GS could be made to match each other. First and foremost is by reducing weight. Also, there has been a disproportionate amount of investment Toyota has put into the engine for it to be only in 500 cars.
        • 5 Years Ago
        JDM - don't be an ass. I realize that a lot of people on here are anti-Toyota, but I'm not one of them. In fact, I've been accused of being a Toyota fanboy on here more than once, which also always mystifies me as well.

        I might want another sporty vehicle out there, but I really don't think this would be a good move for Toyota. Admittedly, part of my problem is that massive $100K sports sedans seem pretty dumb to me - I'd rather have a LS460 and a Z, or an A4 wagon and an Exige for that kind of money. But the other part of it is that I'm honest about Toyota plays best. The GS is just not that exciting a car, and I don't think it's a problem that will be solved by a remarkable motor. Maybe the next gen GS will be different.

        Remember, Lexus tried the high end with the LS600 and no one bought it, which is a damned shame, because it was in many ways a better car than the S600 or the 7 series at the time. I am just worried that a GS-F would be a similar mistake for them. With the economy and fuel prices, my guess is that the next gen M5 if not going to sell all that well in the US either.

        Toyota is absolutely welcome to prove me wrong...
        • 5 Years Ago

        The LS600 was a total flop because it didn't outperform the LS460 in any way, but it cost 50,000 dollars more. It got the same average gas mileage, it was equally fast, even though it weighed like a thousand lbs more. All you got for your extra 50,000 was a leather covered dash and some extra wood trim.

        If the LS600 had been released with a V12, you can be sure that the buying crowd of S600's and 760's would have been showing up at Lexus dealerships. No one wanted a bloated hybrid that didn't even get better gas mileage than the standard V8.

        We've had Lexus's for a decade now, and my family and I agree that they're exceptional. The LFA is everything it should be, and then some. The LS600 was everything it shouldn't have been. If they ever decide to do a REAL flagship, it needs to have a proper V12 engine in it, none of that hybrid nonsense.
        • 5 Years Ago
        zamafir, as always talking out your ass.

        The GS has two levels of adaptive suspension availible already. There's the AVS suspension system, which modulates damping rate, and there's also the Active Power Stabilizer system, to basically negate body roll.

        The suspension on the GS is designed to be dynamic in the tight stuff, but still be comfortable as a high speed cruiser. The dual injection 3.5L V6 and 4.6L V8 move the car reasonably quick. Also, the 4.8L V10 is lighter than the 3.5L V6, so if they used that, there would be minimal "buttressing" necessary.

        A re-worked transmission and lighter suspension/wheels would be necessary though.

        I don't think that putting the 4.8L 10 in a GS is a very good idea, however. The LFA's V10 is designed to operate at high revs and in a VERY light car, that can make use of the kind of power delivery that the V10 has. The GS is a heavier car, higher CG and would benefit from more torque. It's not a two-seat F1 derived hypercar, but neither is the BMW or MB that the GS competes with.

        Why not just drop the 5.0L ISF V8 in there, and twin turbocharge it? It's 5.0L and only makes 416bhp so it's probably not stressed too badly, and it's got dual injection, electronic valve timing, titanium valves, and all that fuel effeciency stuff on it already. The ISF gets good gas mileage for its class, so turbocharging should help a GSF with the V8 get tons of torque and reasonable mileage.
        • 5 Years Ago
        @JDM Life

        I've made no comment on the sucess/failure of the LS600h.

        But I'll address it anyway, Being that Mercedes and BMW are scrambling to offer hybrid variants of their S-class and 7-series Lexus has done something right. The LS600h was conceptually sound, but it had some short-comings from a perception standpoint.

        How Lexus sold the LS600h was likely a mistake. The vehicle was fully loaded with heavy amenities and 4WD, the LS600h was much much heavier due to all the extras as well as the hybrid system. This meant that the mileage of the LS600h only had a minuscule increase when you look at the spec-sheet, which has lead to negativity that you see here and elsewhere.

        Lexus' rational was that they need to add all the extras to justify the price premium, but most commentators in the automotive industry (and the internet) merely look at paper numbers.

        Also the technology has obviously moved forward since then, the very vast majority of the weight penalty of a hybrid system in in the battery. The LS600h used a NiMH batteries, the news German hybrids will use li-ion, and Toyota is partnered with the leading company of automotive li-ion batteries, Panasonic-Sanyo, it would do Lexus good to update their system with a Li-ion system and dramatically reduce the weight, and give a little more attention to the numbers on paper if they want it to be a 'halo' car that not only generates sales but also positive PR.
        • 5 Years Ago

        First off, the GS doesn't need a carbon fiber torque tube, because the GS's transmission is in the FRONT of the car! Secondly, that engine is so compact and "finished" that you can't be boring and stroking it, and putting turbochargers on it. Do you really think that that thing with a 9000rpm redline can handle a turbocharger, or that the transmission could handle that kind of load? The LFA's engine belongs in an LFA and has little application outside of an ultra-light, flat, carbon fiber car. It can't be mass produced to reduce cost either. Each one of those is hand-assembled, and you can't convert that to a production line assembly process.

        Why did Lexus make the LS600 a bloated hybrid instead of a real flagship? Because Lexus has been making a few mistakes recently, trying too much to cater to uninformed consumers. That's why their product lineup has become a bit confused. By confused, I mean this: the HS250h barely gets better gas mileage than my IS250, and is a dog to drive. I've been on a test drive in one, and you can really hear that 4 cylinder engine struggle to haul the car's 3700lbs around. Also, the GS and LS hybrids don't outperform their V8 cousins, in performance or gas mileage. All you really get is the blue L badge, and some extra leather and wood. Really, what are the "features" that you're talking about that make the LS600 such a good car? There aren't any, and the LS460 is a better vehicle for the driver and the environment, and it weighs over 500lbs less!

        http://gazoo.com/racing/english/vol_01/page03.asp Read the whole article if you want to get a better insight to a true master's sense of how to design a car. Hiromu Naruse has been responsible for testing everything from the original 2000GT to the LFA. He's got a very interesting philiosophy on car design and refinement, that I don't need to explain in detail here, because you can read it right there.

        Lexus/Toyota ought to listen to individualists like him more, because if you get too mired in group-think, you'll end up with nonsense like the LS600h.

        Now, while everyone's touting the advantage of having the LFA's engine in a GS, there's but one reason to have THAT engine in THAT car: so it'll SOUND like the LFA. That would mean carrying over, not only the engine, surge tank, intake and exhaust manifolds, but also the exhaust system and silencer, to replicate that sound. I really don't think that is appropriate for a large sedan.

        The torque comes at high RPM, which is fine for a carbon fiber hypercar, that's 40 inches tall and has the downforce necessary not to take your foot off the throttle in corners, not for a steel framed sedan that needs torque to get out of the apex of a corner at relatively low revs.

        It's not that a V10 is totally inappropriate... It's that the LFA V10 is. I don't think that Toyota will go through the trouble of developing an engine with more cylinders, for those of us who think that more cylidners makes cooler engines. I'm one of those people and would like to see a V12 at the top of the Lexus sedan lineup.

        Also, the reason that the 72deg V10 in the LFA is so light, is because it's a masterpiece engine. It's the skeleton, tourbillion of engine design! If Toyota had wanted to spend the money to develop lighter V8's and V6's, and double the cost of the IS, GS and LS, then they could do it. Cost is a factor for those products, even if it's not for the LFA.

      • 5 Years Ago

      I wouldn't be surprised if the fabrication of the tub and body accounted for much of that $350k. I also doubt ANY elements of the car come from Toyota/Lexus parts bins. The lack of shared components drives up the cost of a car more than you might imagine (economies of scale, and all).

      Hand-assembled, or not, I would be surprised if that engine (if sold as a crate) would cost more than $30~35k. Toyota's price is likely $5 to 10k lower than that (at least). Given that AB is speculating that the GS would cost around $100k, that supposition makes sense.

      As a point of reference, a brand-new LS9 can be had for $20k.
      • 5 Years Ago
      If the Lexus Racer is to be a Halo car, then the V10 should go to the LS. GS should get the V8 with turbo,
      • 5 Years Ago
      Go for it,Lexus.
      • 5 Years Ago
      to the contrary Motortrend is reporting something different. They say the GS-F will use a modified and more powerful version of the IS-F's V8. With 460+HP. Also to the naysayers that hate everything toyota here at hateatoyoblog.com the current GS isn't a porker. Also the GS300 AWD hits 60 in less than 6 seconds with only 300 some HP. That's because the car is not a porker. It weighs in at around 3750 lbs for the GS430. About the same as the IS-F. Compare that to the REAL porkers which are these supposed 'torque monsters' being the CTS-V the XFR and the E63. which are ALL over 4000 lbs.

      According to Motortrend the new GS-F will be based off the NEW model in 2011. Not the CURRENT model. Weight saving from some carbon fiber body panels and a lighter chassis are going to bring the weight down to around 3500 lbs. That's 600-700 lbs. lighter than most of it's competitors.

      This taken from Motortrend- The new GS F should handle well as well. Arguably the most impressive piece of new technology on the GS F will be its (right-left rear) torque split mechanism fitted to the rear drive wheels. This device is being likened locally to Honda's SH-AWD or Mitsubishi's AYC unit, with the big difference being that the latter two examples are all-wheel drive, while the GS F is rear drive.

      Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_2011_lexus_gs/index.html#ixzz0b8F4vZQP
      • 5 Years Ago
      That's what I want to see for along time, and gotta love it.
      • 5 Years Ago
      • 5 Years Ago
      The GS has never been impressive as a sports sedan, and it's a platform that's already coming up on 5 years old.

      If Lexus' F division is looking for a halo product in the GS, they sure did pick a stale one. It will look rather silly next to the all-new-for-'11 M5.
        JDM Life
        • 5 Years Ago

        Look GS400.


        The GS400 out handled the BMW and Merc. It was faster and beat them in luxury and build quality. Plus it took car of year.

        You were saying?

        The GS was always impressive....even more so with the new one and the hybrid model is one of a kind. Each car offers something the other one doesnt. None better then the other...just what fit YOUR needs the most.
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