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Rumormill: Toyota MR2 to be reborn with hybrid power
Tell us if this sounds familiar: Hybrids will kill the driver-oriented sportscar. It's the line taken by no small share of enthusiasts, and some of them are among us here at Autoblog. But the skeptics were silenced – or temporarily hushed, at least – when Honda took the wraps off of its CR-Z coup concept. After all, anything that could bring back the CRX hatchback with added oomph at no extra cost at the fuel pumps has to sound good to anyone's ears, right? But you didn't think Toyota would let Honda have the fun all to itself now, did you?
It's far from official, but reports out of Japan suggest that Toyota may be working on a reborn hybrid sportscar of its own. The company once known for its sports-coupes recently unveiled the FT-86 concept, and could be set to follow up with a gasoline-electric resurrection of the cult classic MR2. The budget-friendly mid-engine/rear-drive sportscar had a big following who led the legions of the disappointed when the third-generation model was discontinued two years ago. But if the latest reports are to be believed, Mr. Two could be back – in hybrid form.
Details are scarce, but according to Japan's Best Car, we're looking at a two-seat two-door coupe with a gasoline engine mounted amidships behind the cabin, coupled to an electric motor in a more performance-oriented version of the Toyota Synergy Drive popularized by the Prius. Reports suggest it could adopt the MR-S nameplate, which is what the last MR2 was known as in Japan, so there's just as good a chance that it could wear the MR2 nameplate on this side of the Pacific. That's about all we've got for now, but if we all (Toyota included) play our cards just right, Japan's beloved budget mid-engined car could be coming back...with a charge.
[Source: Best Car via CarScoop]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
matthew 4:39PM (11/26/2009)
I really wish Toyota/Lexus would stop with all this hybrid nonsense. Like it's great to have a car with a massive battery and more mechanical complication?
Put turbochargers and direct injection in the cars and make them fuel effecient the right way instead, please!
Reply
Engo P 4:52PM (11/26/2009)
Agree wholeheartedly. They should snatch that boxer-4 from the FT86, put it midship and be done with it.
They'd have more enthusiast supporters that way. I guarantee it.
psarhjinian 5:02PM (11/26/2009)
Because turbochargers don't add any extra mechanical stress, complexity and cost. Oh no, not at all.
Put it this way: hybrids (or at least Toyota and Ford's implementation) are proving to be some of the most reliable products on the road---usually as reliable or more than their pedestrian counterparts---despite all this mechanical complexity. Meanwhile, turbocharged gasoline cars have a long and storied history of being not quite as reliable as naturally-aspirated cars that continues right up to the modern day.
The arguments against hybrid powertrains sound an awful lot like the ludditish response to electronic fuel injection all those years ago (it's complex, it's unreliable, etc, etc), yet EFI didn't destroy the industry. Heck, I can't recall the last time I had to tweak an EFI system to keep a car running well, while every carbureted car I ever had was a constant glitchfest. Personally, I think wringing extra efficiency out of a given powertrain is a good thing.
paul34 5:08PM (11/26/2009)
Indeed. The MR2 was the essence of a pure sports car, even more so than the MX-5/Miata due to the MR layout. If they make it a hybrid, it will almost certainly lose any possibility of a third pedal as well... which isn't "pure" at all. Even if they put a IS-F type auto on it, it isn't consistent with the spirit of the MR2 any longer.
But it's just a rumor, so who knows. They better not mess it up...
VictorRaikkonen 5:19PM (11/26/2009)
I agree with Psarhjinian, the fact is - is that pure gasoline engines will go the way of the dinosaur and eventually we'll all be driving hybrids, electric vehicles or whichever wins the war, for lack of a better term. I'm not going to state it's going to happen in the next 10 or 15 years, however I would be willing to bet that before we leave here the majority of available new cars will be hybrids, or what have you.
Gruv 5:19PM (11/26/2009)
Agree 100%. Electric motors, batteries, and small engines DO NOT MAKE A SPORTY CAR. The CRZ is stupid, and so is this. If you want to make something sporty and efficient, REMOVE WEIGHT. Make it SMALL. The original MR2 did this. The original Miata did this. Having regenerative motors in the wheels is going to increase the sprung weight, making the car handle like poop. It will still have GRIP, but it will nto have the response and "fun factor" of the older cars.
1984 CRX: 54mpg.
2007 Prius? About the same. Just imagine a CRX with today's engine technology.
Temple 5:43PM (11/26/2009)
Hybrids don't necessarily have to be heavy, single heaviest component is the battery. Currently, the Prius uses a Ni-Mh battery that weighs around ~53kgs (117lbs). By moving to Li-ion batteries and using a smaller capacity batteries the weight can be reduced to more then half that. By all rational this hybrid MR2 should weigh less then a first-gen Prius which is around 2,765 lb- so this car should be closer to the heavier/powerful second-gen MR2 then the third-gen MR2, which was lighter/less power, but sold poorly.
Conceptually, if Toyota implements a Formula 1 KERS style system rather then a Prius-style system, being to add power rather then a commuter car, then a hybrid system makes a lot of sense. It should be noted that many other sports like LeMans are implementing a hybrid style systems (in LMP1 in 2011 for instance).
One major advantage that electric motors have is that they offer massive amounts of instantaneous torque. If the MR is resurrected then its likely to have a small displacement high-revving motor, matched with a high-torque motor it could be a killer combination.
matthew 6:09PM (11/26/2009)
Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology is the only thing that'll make cars green. Saying we'll all be driving hybrids in the near future makes me cringe. I owned a Prius as a daily driver car when gasoline was 4 dollars a gallon in the US. It was a loud, underpowered and clumsy car.
My Lexus IS250 that I replaced it with gets me about 27mpg in the city with some high speed highway driving thrown in there. Pure highway cruising gets me about 31mpg at 75mph plus. The bloated FWD HS250h get's about 34mpg highway and drive like garbage compared to the IS.
The Prius was 3100lbs and 30,000 dollars of tin can, the IS is 3400lbs and 34,000 dollars(base but still far nicer than any hybrid for the price) of kickass fun. Just imagine that 2.5L direct injection V6 in the MR-2 replacement.
Really, get over hybrids already. They're not worth the compromises or the environmental destruction they cause to make the batteries.The CVT's they come with are kind of cool, but that's all and they make nice taxi's. Switching from NiMH to Li ion batteries is a baby step toward H2 fuel cells.
BoxerFanatic 6:20PM (11/26/2009)
You guys already said it...
More complicated is bad.
Simpler is good, lighter, and better for both performance, and gives good fuel economy on the engine alone. A turbo helps recycle otherwise wasted engine heat... that should be enough.
Batteries are just ballast weight in comparison, and two drive mechanisms require complex torque intermixing.
I've wanted to shoehorn a Subaru boxer and a VW/Porsche style gearbox in an SW20 MR2 for a long time, if Toyota were to do it for me, I'd seriously make a big effort to buy one.
Temple 6:43PM (11/26/2009)
@ Matthew
3100 lbs for the current Prius isn't that heavy in the modern context. The much smaller Mk6 Golf FTI is closer to 3,200lbs in GTI form, and the Jetta TDI is closer to 3,300 lbs. Much of it is due to safety, the demands by insurance companies and governments on safety become higher and higher.
Now we're talking about pedestrian safety (pop-up bonnets) and roll-over protection for small cars with a low-center of gravity where people weren't concerned about such safety concerns before. It all adds weight.
@BoxerFanatic
Progress adds complexity. VW/Porsche are a great example of this. The 911 has inevitably moved forward from air-cooled engines, they've added fuel-injection instead of carburetors, now direct-injection and dual-clutch systems. The term 'hybrid' is very far reaching in implementation and sooner or later we'll see some variant on it in most sportcars (Ferrari is said to be adding a hybrid system to their cars as well, and have already produced a patent).
matthew 7:04PM (11/26/2009)
KERS style hybrid equimpent is a fine idea, and so is BMW's regenerative braking smart alternator system. An electric boost button is fine, as long as it doesn't break down and add any reliability or longevity issues.
I'm talking about the whole Hybrid Synergy Drive. They're VERY annoying to drive. I drove the Prius for a year, and I've driven an RX400h as a loaner car, when my cars are being serviced, enough to hate it. They're terrible cars to own and drive.
Turbo's can sound very sexy(think Veyron). A clunk as the gasoline engine comes on and shuts off at a stoplight in a hybrid isn't sexy.
the4thheat 7:22PM (11/26/2009)
Oddly enough Toyota's power combiner is apparently pretty simple and doesn't really add any mechanical complexity compared with modern transmissions, so adding the hybrid part mostly just adds the battery and motor.
I agree about the weight thing but adding a turbo is likely to add way more maintenance and mechanical complexity compared to making it a hybrid.
Dan 7:24PM (11/26/2009)
A small roadster that will in all likelyhood be a 2nd vehicle is about the worst application for a hybrid powertrain that I can think of.
You can't save a meaningful amount of gas where you were only filling up 15 times a year to begin with.
dystroglycan 10:36PM (11/26/2009)
The only difference I worry about between an entry-level sports car, and an eco-branded one is the price premium. I'm sure other buyers in this segment dont want to drive a car that feels like an anemic prius half the time.
Sea Urchin 12:59AM (11/27/2009)
Matt, look at the potential down the road, let's say you use turbo charger or supercharger and improve MPG by 5-6, hybrids can add complexity and cost and weight but they can offer better MPGs and far more importantly down the road they will be able to offer far, far more efficient cars.
Dave 10:32AM (11/27/2009)
IMHO-
The problems with the mkIII MR2 were
1) the convertible top (nothing wrong with it, but if youre creating a "pure" sports car, its just watered down vs the original).
2) the POS engine (supposedly fixed for '03+)
3) the automated manual transmission (fortunately, it was optional)
4) awful understeer (to keep the lawyers happy)
Honda has built hybrids with manual transmission. Maybe Toyota can too.
Failing that, hopefully Toyota can offer drivetrain options.
All else being equal - I'd rather see a good MR2 in production than this tarted up FT-86 concept.
zamafir 11:08AM (11/27/2009)
@Sea Urchin - far more efficient? cool. Here's hoping Toyota can get this hybrid MR2 replacement out when vw debuts their blusport (also mid engined, rwd, two seater) then we'll have a decent pair of cars to compare these very complicated unreliable turbos i'm reading about in the comments here to the very simple hybrid setups and see which option provides a fundamentally better car where it matters in the MR market, driving involvement, handling, power, acceleration, and as a side effect economy.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if a hybrid MR2 has no issues beating a TDI roadster in all those relevant areas... because we're talking about fun to drive roadsters here, not HOV cruisers.
@matthew - hydrogen fuel cell powered cars will not be in the mainstream for another couple of decades. And calling a vehicle containing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of irreplaceable rare earth materials powered by a fuel 97% derived from fossil fuels in commercial form sounds a heck of a lot less green than a pure electric powered off the grid, even taking coal power into account.
PJ 12:05PM (11/27/2009)
Not sure where all the grumpiness is coming from. Aside from the Miata (excellent but fatter now), it's not like you've been able to buy a small, lightweight, affordable RWD roadsters of *any* drive system for the last half-decade. Hybrid or not, I'm all for their return.
I'm also intrigued by the potential of electric motors provide to fill in the missing parts of these cars' powerbands. Take a 1.8-liter 2ZZ Four and bolt it in an MR2, and you've got a screaming top end, and virtually nothing else. Add an electric motor, and you've got strong, silent V8 oomph off the line. Overlap them in the midrange, and that's a match made in heaven.
Mike!!ekiM 4:51PM (11/27/2009)
Of Course a Hybrid MR2 is TERRIBLE.
BP would lose some PROFIT.
We can't allow an electric and hybrid economy to take off, we must protect a Huge Oil Company, while they fund AntiGlobalWarming BS.
Clarkson's show has been EXPOSED as a FRONT of BP.
Anti-Future Tech Propaganda, and Anti-Global Warming Solutions funded by BP.
Weren't they supposed to be the "green" oil company?
What's amazing to me is the MASSIVE Funds going to TV shows and "Journalists" to convince us what we really want is some Huge Expensive Gas Guzzler. Welcome to the USSR OF GB AND USA, USA, USA!
WAVE THE FLAG AND BURN GAS: sponsored by BP
Mike!!ekiM 9:11PM (11/27/2009)
Yes, just because I don't Know Anything about Electric Cars and Hybrids, I should be able to DIRECT Toyota from making Alternate Engine Progress.
Let me help kiss the a** of the Oil Industry, and explain how the Low Torque, piston engine for hundreds of moving parts is somehow superior to an Electric Engine. Let me go on to write some BS about Batteries, of course, I don't know anything about batteries, and have No Idea the Progress being made in the battery area, but, just because I like to Kiss the Oil Industry's A**, batteries must be bad.