Filed under: Euro, Government/Legal, Safety
Lutz agrees with McElroy, calls for moratorium on U.S. crash test standards
Click above to view video of the 2008 Smart fortwo crash test
Anybody who watches Autoline on Detroit or reads our Autoline on Autoblog posts will know that John McElroy is a certifiably nice guy. Bob Lutz is known more as a brash talker who isn't afraid to make his views known, regardless of what others may think. Both of them, though, are very closely attuned to the auto industry. The head product-honcho at GM and our very own Mr. Nice Guy share the opinion that the Feds should suspend their ever-increasing crash-testing standards for a few years. If a car is safe enough for our European relatives, it should be safe enough for us, right? In reality, this is not the case, as the U.S. standards differ enough from those across the pond that a car sometimes needs to be designed specifically to pass one or the other. For this reason, the Chevy Beat won't be sold on U.S. soil.
To complete the deal, McElroy also suggests doing the same for environmental standards. As with crash tests, though both the U.S. and the European regulations are strict, they don't quite match. Therefore, many cars -- especially those equipped with diesel engines -- can't be sold in the States despite being available in Europe. Lutz doesn't specifically touch on this point, but we'd hazard a guess that he'd go along with it as well.
[Source: Wards Auto]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Pete 10:07AM (9/03/2008)
I'm in favor of this. No point in globalization if the production standards aren't the same.
I think this should also be true for manufacturing and safety standards in China, but I'm certain we'll touch on that some other day.
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Randy 10:31AM (9/03/2008)
You mention China. I wonder if some US Government official was paid off to stop the increasing safety requirements in US vehicles so that China can start exporting to the US with more ease of manufacturing. Or it could actually be true that a world standard is the actual goal! :)
We'll never know!
pete 11:33AM (9/03/2008)
>Randy
have you seen those chinese car crash test in slow motion ? awsome death traps! god forbid if you ever get in accident in one of those, add some mayo and tomato, you got a nice human sandwitch !
Randy 12:30PM (9/03/2008)
Yeah, and that's the point of my post! If China is building death traps and can't get them in the US Market, it makes it easier for them by stopping the progress of safety!
I think cars are safe enough at this point, I mean if we keep going with safety regulations, it'll be NASA type builds that cover 99.9999999% of every possible accident and they'll cost a fortune!
Jeff 10:13AM (9/03/2008)
We can't even get our states to agree on environmental standards with California adopting different standards than the rest of the country and several other states going along with the California standards.
How could we ever get our Fed and our States to align on European standards?
The reason Lutz probably didn't comment on that situation is that he would be wasting his breath and effort to even mention it.
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zamafir 10:22AM (9/03/2008)
several? by several you mean the majority of the us population? yeah, adopting california's standards does seem crazy and confusing. good thing the state itself doesn't have the greatest purchasing power of an state, and the additional states adopting the standards don't represent the majority of car purchasing power in this country... oh... wait a minute...
Goat Law 10:57AM (9/03/2008)
Yeah, too bad there is this little thing called federal preemption. If the Federal Government decided it wanted to allow cars meeting euro standards as well, it could do so unilaterally, especially if Congress acted under the commerce clause.
RMc 11:11AM (9/03/2008)
CARB (California Air Resources Board) is biggest force behind why diesels aren't being sold in America. Six other states use CARB standards besides California (including New York and Mass) and that combination makes it not worth automakers to bring over their amazing diesels without expensive particulate filter technology just now making it to market. Remember that 1 of every 8 Americans lives in California. Otherwise, current US Federal Tier II would allow most diesels to pass as it is closely aligned to Euro Bin 4.
Europe realizes the trade-off of lower carbon emissions for higher NOx particulates with diesel and sets a different set of standards for each fuel type.
So, I agree with having the Federal standards to be harmonic with the European Union standards (which they are close, intentional or not) but I also agree with the above two post that the states, especially the State of Non-Reason (aka California) needs to concede their opinions to the higher law.
Once again, California f'ing everything up for everyone else.
why not the LS2LS7? 2:02PM (9/03/2008)
It is not California messing everything up for everyone else. Vehicles that don't pass CARB cannot be sold in CARB areas. They can still be sold in other areas.
So all you need to do is have enough purchasing power in these states to make it worth selling these non-CARB Diesels in only non-CARB areas. Oh, you don't have enough purchasing power to do that?
Well, don't blame California, blame yourself. You are actually asking California to help you out, to make these cars economically viable, and instead making out as if California had taken something away from you. Let me put it this way, if the CARB states were simply removed from the union, you still wouldn't have those Diesels back.
Also, NOx and particulates are not the same thing. You make that mistake twice in your post.
RMc 5:05PM (9/03/2008)
A large percentage of NOx's oxidize and condensate as particulates immediately after leaving the exhaust stream which is why automakers have been trying to either pre-treat exhaust with urea to consume the receptors on NOx molecules or to catch those condensates/oxidized particles in traps after mixing with ambient air. I can go more in depth but I don't think I need to explain further if one keeps up on issue and has any familiarity. I wish I had the exact number percentage of NOx's that immediately precipitate since you'd be surprised at that number, but I don't have it unfourtunately.
And for CARB state's purchasing influence, I have a statistic for you that may also surprise: over 20% of BMWs sold in the entire US are sold in California. Factor in the other six CARB states and that number is probably close to 25-maybe 30%. Up to 1/3rd of the entire US market couldn't buy a diesel BMW just because of CARB which is exactly why the automakers don't want to bring over their oil burners for the other 2/3rds. The other 66% isn't enough to justify the cost of importation, adding service infrastructure and low margins. See, CARB is a massive reason why we don't have diesels.
why not the LS2LS7? 1:51AM (9/04/2008)
Actually, the CARB areas represent half the cars sold in the US, and well over half the BMWs.
As to your last argument, you are again turning it the wrong way. You're asking California to go your way so they can produce enough buying power to justify bringing a car to your state. Well too bad. California looks out for California. So you need to figure out how to justify marketing Diesels to the US without big daddy California coming in and fighting your fight for you.
Your lack of Diesels is strictly due to your buying power. California is doing nothing further than not ADDING to your market power. California owes you nothing, so when you get nothing, how can you realistically complain?
Yeah, I'd like my rich neighbor to subsidize the cost of my house, but he doesn't do it. Is that something I should hold against him?
zamafir 2:05AM (9/04/2008)
"CARB (California Air Resources Board) is biggest force behind why diesels aren't being sold in America."
Are you ignorant? I have an '02 and '05 jetta and passat diesel. I test drove a brand new jetta diesel yesterday... which is being sold in all 50 states. What the hell are you talking about.
xspeedy 10:13AM (9/03/2008)
Yes, we need matching standards with Europe to simplify the importation of efficient gas and diesel small vehicles and to reduce the cost of custom units to suit one market or the other. For example, the US version of the Honda Fit has a longer (uglier) nose that is likely required to suit US bumper regs.
The majority of vehicle safety, design, and emissions standards should be globalized. If the car market is a global one, then the standards must be as well.
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BoneHeadOtto 11:11AM (9/03/2008)
europeans also have those regulations for pedestrians. Those likely changed the shape of the fit as well.
But we dont need to lower US regulations to European. Why not just make the car to meet all the regulations. I know that getting in a wreck in the US, vs London, vs Autobaghn are totally different scenarios. In Europe you dont have to worry about being hit by 18 wheelers and large Hummers. In the US you do. The the US we dont hit pedestrians all the time, in Europe they do.
Swede 11:45AM (9/03/2008)
Yeah we have no trucks in Europe, which is a country and everyone speak french here. Its a real bother with all these pedestrians lying around, it's hard for me to open the door in the morning, damn overrun pedestrians blocking it.
Noidor 12:45PM (9/03/2008)
LMAO at BoneHeadOtto...I was just about to respond in same way as Swede. Europe combines every kind of imaginable way of driving. Whether extremely high speed on autobahns, city driving w/ pedestrians, sharing roads with trucks etc etc.
We just need to have our government busybodies stop screwing things up. Have a same standard with Europe, relax importation laws, and call it a day. All other artificial mongering is just dumb.
CarlosMC 1:43PM (9/03/2008)
Actually, BoneHeadOtto is right, in Europe, we don't have to worry about being hit by 18 wheelers (and large Hummers); ...since European semis are 12 wheelers (2+4+2+2+2)! ;)
CarlosMC 2:51PM (9/03/2008)
...And since Hummers (H1, H2) are heavier than 3.5 tons, you need at least: C1 license for cargo and/or D1 for passengers, plus E for >750kg trailers (all with minimum age of 21), on top of "car" B license.
black 10:14AM (9/03/2008)
So if this goes through, it means hat the US will get access to some nice European cars faster. Sounds like a good deal to me.
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zamafir 10:15AM (9/03/2008)
this just in from lutz, drop in us road fatalities NOT a result of crash standards, lutz to provide unquestionable quantifiable proof tomorrow... yeah.. erm... thanks but no thanks lutz.
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