Filed under: Green, Japan, Tech
Japanese firms working to make carbon fiber mainstream
On the surface, carbon fiber sounds like a wonder-product which can replace much of the heavy metal, especially steel, that makes up the vast majority of nearly every automobile's structure. Dig a bit deeper, however, and there are a few flies in CF's ointment that make it very difficult to use in vehicles: price, supply and the time it takes to mold a the weaved material. Japan's big three carbon fiber producers are tackling each of these issues in a number of ways. First, the price of CF is expected to become more competitive as both carbon cloth goes down and rolled sheet steel goes up. What's more, as additional CF producing plants come online in the coming years, both the price and availability should improve. Third, new molding processes are being developed which could reduce the time it takes to produce a CF part from hours to minutes.
Carbon fiber is expected to ease the transition to more fuel efficient vehicles as it weights a fifth of what steel does for a part of roughly the same strength. As Automotive News points out, the overall weight of any given vehicle could be halved by replacing major structural steel components with CF, so expect to see CF move down market from the exotics to more mainstream models in the next decade or so.
[Source: Automotive News - Sub. Req.]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Yar 6:33PM (5/12/2008)
Isn't decomposition and yellowing still a problem? I know GM solved the problem, but I'm assuming their solution is the subject of several patents.
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Adam Marcello 7:00PM (5/12/2008)
Thats an issue with exposed carbon fiber. Most car companies paint carbon fiber so these issues wont happen.
vento97 6:36PM (5/12/2008)
I guess the Japanese are getting tired of importing recycled steel from the U.S. to manufacture their vehicles...
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naggs 7:47PM (5/12/2008)
pretty much everyone uses recycled steel, it is identical in quality and stregnth
knightuc1992 8:39PM (5/12/2008)
German automakers use galvanized steel (they have their own foundries), as well as some U.S. automakers. Japanese automakers use recycled steel imported from the U.S. (this is common knowledge in the auto body repair industry), since the island lacks the size and capacity to manufacture steel from mined iron ore, and it is cost-prohibitive to ship the raw iron ore from the U.S.
knightuc1992 8:47PM (5/12/2008)
Here's a link that provides some background on auto body construction. Take note of the paragraph describing the difference between the materials the Japanese use v.s. U.S. and Germany.
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=auto%20body
Travis 11:56PM (5/12/2008)
Japan produces more steel than the United States does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production
If the steel is harder, its because it was produced that way, probably so they have to use less of it (it is still an expensive commodity, esp. with prices going the way they are).
Steel is steel guys. "Recycled" steel is chemically, structurally, down to the atomic level, exactly the same as non-'recycled' steel.
Japan has less iron ore. But they produce more steel. That means they're importing...iron ore. The same stuff we use to make steel.
...how some of these 'facts' get disseminated is beyond me, really....
CMS 6:22AM (5/16/2008)
Dont comment on what you dont know about. Japan imports its iron ore from Brazil/Austrailia (like most of the world). Scrap is used in ALL modern steel (20-30% in blast furnance and 80% in arc furnace applications). I could go on and on (I follow steel for a living) but needless to say there is NO difference between Japanese cars and domestic cars in this regard. These comments may be the most ignorant thing I have seen on the web today.
knightuc1992 12:55PM (5/13/2008)
Steel is steel guys. "Recycled" steel is chemically, structurally, down to the atomic level, exactly the same as non-'recycled' steel.
Tell that to some of the auto body shop technicians that I know. They told me from their experience that a fender bender which causes minor damage on a car with higher grade steel would result in thousands of dollars worth of damage on a Japanese car.
Case in point - my wife has a 2003 Passat. She was involved in two accidents - one was a chain reaction accident where she was hit from behind by an E-series Lexus and ran into another vehicle in front of her (an older Mercedes). When the State Trooper asked her if she was involved in the accident, she had to show him where the front and rear bumpers were pushed in. The bumpers were able to absorb the energy of the impact before it got to the body. The Lexus sustained heavy front end damaged like an accordion and had to be towed. The Mercedes sustained a dent in the bumper and was driveable. My wife was able to drive her car from the accident.
In the second accident, a clueless driver in a Malibu plowed into the back of my wife at a red light. The accident jarred her pretty good, but the only damaged sustained was her right side rear bumper was pushed in. Once again, the body was untouched - unlike the Malibu which sustained front -end damage including a big dent in the hood.
So you can pooh, pooh the 'facts' as you call them. The proof is in the pudding.
By the way, if this doesn't convice you, why don't you drive to a nearby auto recycling yard and observe the damage on some Japanese and German vehicles, and see for yourself. Or better yet, go to several auto body shops and ask their opinion on these cars. I have - because I prefer to see things firsthand for myself.
suburbicide 1:17PM (5/14/2008)
knightuc1992: What do those anecdotes have to do with the strength of steel and what does that have to do with carbon fiber?
Many modern cars are designed to crumple in a collision instead of transmitting the force of a collision to the occupants. Other cars have bumpers (and underlying supports) that are better able to absorb and dissipate impacts than other cars.
Neither of these things are really related to either a) the "strength" of (German) steel or b) carbon fiber being used in more mainstream cars.
vento97 3:26PM (5/14/2008)
To satisfy the request of the "thread police", I offer this explanation:
It all started with a comment I made:
"I guess the Japanese are getting tired of importing recycled steel from the U.S. to manufacture their vehicles..."
Others responded, then I responded back.
It's part of the normal ebb and flow of discussion.
The end...
vento97 11:57AM (5/16/2008)
CMS:
"Dont comment on what you dont know about. Japan imports its iron ore from Brazil/Austrailia (like most of the world). Scrap is used in ALL modern steel (20-30% in blast furnance and 80% in arc furnace applications). I could go on and on (I follow steel for a living) but needless to say there is NO difference between Japanese cars and domestic cars in this regard."
Thank you, Doctor CMS for your expert opinion...
Please enlighten us on the difference between the steel used in Japanese cars and the galvanized steel used in German cars (I drive German cars, so I couldn't care less about domestic vehicles).
Snutz 6:41PM (5/12/2008)
Serious question: How would carbon fiber stand up in a crash? When you just have a CF hood or roof it's probably not an issue, but if you're making the major structural components out of it that seems like something that should be taken into account. Will it crumple like steel does and absorb some of the energy? I don't really have any experience with the material, but it seems like it would just snap instead of crumpling which would have an adverse effect on safety. Anyone who knows more care to enlighten me?
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Ray 6:44PM (5/12/2008)
Carbon could be used on non-load bearing structures. A steel frame can continued to be utilized.
This is great news, carbon fiber is so expensive world wide now.
nissanfreak87 6:45PM (5/12/2008)
think F1 crash, they use carbon.
It's pretty safe, it shatters/breaks up instead of crumpling
Jim 7:18PM (5/12/2008)
"think F1 crash, they use carbon.
It's pretty safe, it shatters/breaks up instead of crumpling"
"Shattering" is not a good thing in this case; it would defeat the entire purpose of crumple zones. When you get into a collision, you *want* the front or rear of the car to fold up like an accordion. Reason being that plastic deformation of steel dissipates a lot of energy; energy which doesn't get transferred to you or your passengers. A brittle material like carbon fiber/epoxy won't deform like that, and it will either 1) shatter uselessly and not dissipate much energy, or 2) remain rigid and dump most of the energy into you. Feel like a broken neck?
CrazyAlexZX3 7:46PM (5/12/2008)
You have to realize that it is not in a car company's interest to sell an unsafe car, and that that company's engineers are capable of taking CF's limitations into account when designing the safety features of said car.
Most likely the CF would be used extensively in all structual components (especially the safety cage where lack of deformation is good) and other materials with linear deformation properties would be used to dissipate energy in the crumple zones. As seen in race cars for years.
Maxzillian 9:09PM (5/12/2008)
Something to point out is that energy is still absorbed when carbon fiber shatters. Also consider that when it shatters, you're actually tearing the carbon fibers which takes a considerable amount of energy.
Kayne001 9:25PM (5/12/2008)
umm I thought carbon fiber was good for safety?
It takes a lot of force for them shatter.
In a way it is a crumple zone, however it takes a lot more.
I mean seriously, if F1 cars could crash at high speeds, carbon fiber would have to be safe in some way.
Heck the 787 from Boeing has more carbon fiber in it for strength, the wings and fuselage I've heard.
Disgruntled Goat 9:32PM (5/12/2008)
If they can make fiberglass bodied cars then there won't be a problem with CF.