Autoweek and Fourtitude were able to enjoy some seat time in the Audi R8 V12 TDI LeMans concept before its official unveiling in Geneva last week. Their drive was short (about an hour with a 50 mph speed limit imposed by Audi's boffins), but their time at the airport adjacent to Sebring International Raceway has made an impression.
The crimson beast we saw in Geneva was the same concept that was displayed in Detroit, simply sporting a new paint job, but spending quality time with the R8 V12 TDI revealed a few interesting tidbits about the concept. First, the firewall behind the driver and passenger had to be extended by some six-inches to accommodate the oilburner and although claimed torque output is somewhere in the 737 lb.-ft. range, the few journos asked to take part only got to experience 442 lb.-ft. of twist – a good thing considering that the transmission mated to the engine is an A4 case with modified internals.
While the performance was impressive, the short gearing and shorter redline (not disclosed) seemed to make all that grunt superfluous in first and second, but Audi is expecting the R8 V12 TDI to return around 24 mpg and meet the 2014 Euro 6 emissions standards if, and when, it goes on sale.
While the Autoweek piece only provided the "50/50" quote in the title, the Fourtitude article is far more entertaining and informative -- well worth a read.
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[Sources: Autoweek, Fourtitude]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
ianw33 @ Mar 14th 2008 8:23PM
That car looks freaking mean as hell in that pic
Reader @ Mar 15th 2008 3:35AM
One in orange please.
Yar @ Mar 14th 2008 8:41PM
Hopefully they make the gearing taller in the production model. With 737 lb/ft I'm sure they can afford to do it.
Nick @ Mar 14th 2008 8:47PM
Providing they can come up with a gearbox that's production-ready which will handle said torque.
Longer ratios would certainly help compensate somewhat for the -severely- truncated rev-range, though I still have doubts about it feeling like a true supercar, or even a sports car.
Shoaib @ Mar 14th 2008 9:16PM
Veyron gearbox?
AlphaTeam @ Mar 14th 2008 9:05PM
Man I love this car.
Mars @ Mar 14th 2008 9:08PM
i like the front grill. it is cool
chad.dawkins @ Mar 14th 2008 9:38PM
Gorgeous car
almost Dr. G.. @ Mar 14th 2008 9:39PM
ummm. the pics from the autoshow say that redline is at 4500rpms. (for the shorter undisclosed redline)
kevin @ Mar 14th 2008 9:50PM
"though I still have doubts about it feeling like a true supercar, or even a sports car"
Umm, perhaps you forgot about the Audi R10 TDI that has been dominating the ALMS (against gasoline engines mind you).....
psarhjinian @ Mar 14th 2008 9:59PM
Racing car != production car
HB @ Mar 14th 2008 10:31PM
@psarhjinian, why wouldn't Audi have thought things through and adjust its (gutsy TDI) power plant, though diesel, to behave, sound and handle like a super car? I would say that Audi's motorsports' experience should have, if any, a positive impact on its production cars. And oh yeah, go graduate from high school before you leave a comment :D
Nick @ Mar 14th 2008 11:09PM
Where did I say it would be slow? Nowhere. I said "feel", as in how a sports car feels, that generally being a nice free revving engine, and a great sound to go with it. I have no doubts that this V12 R8 TDI would be absolutely fast, but that doesn't mean it will be an appealing car to drive. A Mini Cooper D for example, is a great car, but is it as good "feeling" as the petrol? Nope.
HB @ Mar 14th 2008 11:31PM
Well, I live and work in Germany and, as you might know, TDI is huge over here. Coincidentally, I have had a Mini Cooper with a petrol engine for a long period of time and didn't find it as "elastic" nor "torque-y" it as a TDI in an A3 or a Golf. I guess speculations are still ripe about how the V12TDI of the R8 will perform and "feel", since it's completely uncharted waters for a diesel in a road car. I do hope it delivers and will certainly be on the lookout!
psarhjinian @ Mar 15th 2008 12:17AM
Ok, I'll expand on that point. I admit I was being terse.
Making an engine that can survive a race--any race, even Le Mans--is not the same as producing an engine that has to start, first crank, for five to ten years without the assistance of a team of crack engineers and mechanics, possibly suffering from lack of maintenance, and still meeting emissions standards. I recall a quote from a Honda executive to the effect of "We let our engineers learn on racing and single-purpose engines. If they can manage that, then we let them design something for a Civic or Accord."
Now, to be fair, an R12 TDI isn't exactly a normal production car, but the concept is still valid, if not as much so in, say, a Honda Civic. Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday hardly every applies anymore, and it certainly doesn't apply to anything out of Le Mans, F1 or NASCAR Cup. The R10 TDI is an amazing achievement, but the conditions it operates under are definitely not production-car-friendly, and it's an oversimplification to say that their racing experience is directly applicable to creating a street car. It's the same for the OHV V8s in NASCAR Cup--nice engines, but not remotely production-capable.
You can almost say that about Dakar or WRC (barely) is a fair training ground for a steet car. Not LeMans. No way.
I think Audi recognizes this, which is why they're not comitting to anything. A production-grade performance turbodiesel would have to be massively strong and thusly brutally heavy. It'll also have a much narrower power band; like a bizarro version of early Honda VTEC engines--the power is there, but the drop-off is precipitously early (unlike the W16 in Veyron, or any Lambo) and the rev limiter set very low (like, what, 4500rpm?). This means that the transmission is going to have to be very different from anything they make now: it'll need to a deal with both a massive amount of torque and the impossibly narrow powerband. They have nothing production-ready that can do this, and saying "Well, they have the R10" is an oversimplification. The R10 is a race princess; the R12 needs to be a real car.
dac @ Mar 15th 2008 1:19AM
@psar,
You have some excellent points and I would agree with everything up until you began bemoaning the TDI's narrow powerband. In terms of percentage, TDI engines general exceed that of most gasoline cars, except perhaps big bore v8's. Diesels require significantly different driving practices because you manage shifts off speed, not rpms and that might not appeal to the high end sports car sound. The R8 TDI won't be a screamer but 700+ lb/ft of torque would be enough to make it one of favorite supercars.
nagmashot @ Mar 15th 2008 1:06AM
@psarhjinian
stop posting comments about diesel engines... you showed on many topic´s at autoblog that you have zerro knowlege into diesel and car technology and all that you write here is simple "totaler quatsch"
LeMans racing is so far away from production that Porsche used a LeMans race engine in the Porsche Carrera GT.
The V12 TDI engine has a usefull powerband of 3500-4000rpm... from 1000rpm to 5000rpm..
most petrol engines does not have am larger usefull powerband... who cares if they need 3 or 4000rpm to get to the usefull powerband.
BTW you know nothing about car freak.. it is widely used practis in Germany to use strong diesel trannys at heavy modded petrol engines simple because they are build for higher torque...
I am sick to read all the nonsens you write
psarhjinian @ Mar 15th 2008 2:27AM
@nagma
I may as well say that you've got an emotional involvement with diesel engines from your responses, and that said involvement makes it hard for you to see both sides of an issue. Name-calling, though, doesn't help your cause.
Let's address some points, though:
The Carrera GT:
* The Carrera GT is not a street car. The compromises it makes (launching it is _hard_, and the powertrain is not low-maintenance) really make this obvious.
* The production R8, by comparison, is very streetable, general-consumption-friendly and has little to do with LeMans aside from it's name. It's probably the most civil supercar since the NSX.
* Dropping the R10 TDI powertrain into it isn't easy. You'd need to detune it to meet acceptable levels of civility and emissions. You'd also need to deal with that whole "no production transmission" issue. If you didn't do this, you'd have a car that was fast, but thoroughly impractical.
On the powerband:
* 3500-4000rpm? This must be a typo, as a 500rpm powerband is truck territory. Meaning that you'll need a truck transmission-like gearset: 10-18 forward gears. That's a big gearbox for a sportscar.
* If you mean 1000-5000rpm, well, that's not entirely true. Even a good TDI suffers some turbo lag, which means that the fun doesn't start until ~1500rpm.
* A "good" diesel like BMW's 3.0d is going to start giving up at or before 4000rpm. That gives you 2500rpm of useful powerband--probably less. Compare that to a gasoline (especially a blown one with variable valve timing) that does well to from ~2000-7000rpm; that's 5000rpm of useful power.
* Here's that "transmission" thing again. It has to handle the torque, and it has to cope with the powerband.
There's a case for fuel efficiency in a diesel (and that fuel efficiency advantage is a big part of Audi and Peugeot cleaning up at Le Mans), but we're
Torque is great, but you're hitting declining returns here: the car is going to weigh a lot thanks to the heavy lumps that is the diesel engine and extra-strong tranny. And the transmission is going to negate a lot of that acceleration on it's own because it's going to have to shift so damn much. In a truck, this doesn't matter (you're hauling cargo, who cares how fast you peel out?), but in a sportscar it's a tougher sell.
I don't think that this will offer much more than a V8 or V10 gasoline version--especially a blown gas version. In fact, it might be slower. And the fuel economy issue doesn't really matter to someone who might cross-shop this against a Lamborghini or Porsche.
Diesels are useful things and they do very well in certain markets, but the street sportscar market might not be the right spot for them. Hybrids have the same issue: they're a good tool for many jobs, but perhaps not this one.
Peter @ Mar 15th 2008 3:30AM
> Dropping the R10 TDI powertrain into it isn't easy.
That's why they don't. This is not, and has nothing to do with, the racing engine.
DIRETTORE @ Mar 15th 2008 6:12PM
* HB - you hit on a key point here. I was at Geneva & heard this vehicle. It sounds like an electric razor. I was sooo disapointed.
I mean the color was extremely loud (not my choice mind you) & yet it purred like it was hardly running. Not the raw, anarchy I was expecting.