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mike @ Mar 6th 2008 5:05PM
How can a carmaker that has been selling Hybrids for a decade be behind a carmaker that has yet to sell one?
Who cares about the type of batteries if GM does not build and sell CARS THAT HAVE TO USE THEM?
zamafir @ Mar 6th 2008 5:10PM
Especially when their parent company continues to make aquisitions pursuant to battery tech... i mean... um... toyota's stupid... just look at the financial situation they're in, clearly they dont know how to run a business, or what they're doing in general! Stoopid toyota.
psarhjinian @ Mar 6th 2008 5:26PM
GM is very good at hail-mary'ing. They've been doing it for years: making flashy concepts and Corvettes that keep people's attention of the average-to-awful cars that they were selling to most people. It worked, but it really wasn't more than a band-aid.
They do better work now, but the hype machine is still in full swing. It's actually disturbing, how every car that comes out of GM is trumpeted as the car that Christ Himself Will Drive For the Second Coming. It doesn't help that GM's fans, as well as the media, seem to think that GM's products exist in a vacuum. Do they really think that Toyota will be selling the 2003 Prius in 2010? Or that Ford, Honda or Nissan will be sitting on their thumbs as well?
The Volt is just the latest version of this: a press-release darling meant to take your attention away from the fact that, other than the two-mode trucks, GM is still playing second-fiddle to Ford and Nissan, never mind Toyota, in this market.
Joe @ Mar 6th 2008 7:56PM
GM sells the most sophisticated hybrid system in the world..... the two mode hybrid which leapfrogs anything Toyota makes. GM also makes the mild hybrid who's payback time is shorter than the competition.
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/0802_gm_two_mode_hybrid_technology_of_the_year/index.html
Joe @ Mar 6th 2008 9:04PM
Now that GM is not coasting anymore, you'll see Toyota getting behind in the future. I know the younger generation thinks we in the US are not smart enough to be ahead. That's the mentality of the younger generation. For a little history of how Japan got where they are at today, read the article of the link below.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
Bryan @ Mar 6th 2008 8:11PM
@ Joe
You realize the 2mode hybrid uses OLD Toyota Hybrid Technology, right?
zamafir @ Mar 6th 2008 8:48PM
@Joe, once the Saturn Aura hybrid manages to return fuel economy of other hybrids vs the fuel economy of my Jetta 2.0T I'll go ahead and pay attention to you, but now, needing hybrid drive to provide 24/32 which my 2.0T gets (now retailing $2,000 less in 08 WB form) doesn't really speak of amazing advances.
But if you must have sub par fuel economy at least make it fast, knock a good 4 seconds off that 0-60 to at least match the 0-60 if the 2.0T, and another 3 cubic feet of trunk space would be nice... Yeah those GM hybrids, real innovators across the board.
Brett @ Mar 6th 2008 10:15PM
Mike, Zamafir, and Jinian your all uniformed noobs. Go back to school and get a real Job. GM has been making Hybrid and Electric vehicles far longer than Toyota.
The TWO MODE has nothing to do with HSD, and is far superior. When it trickles down to cars that use the least amount of gas VS the big SUV's you can go ahead and eat your lunch.
GM currently sells the Vue, Malibu, and Aura all with the BAS hybrid system. Then you have 2Mode in Yukon, Tahoe, Silverado, Sierra, and the buses that have been out longer than the Prius.
Toyota steals designs. They don't invent.
Toyota has yet to sell a good looking vehicle. They are ugly.
Eric Biran @ Mar 6th 2008 11:12PM
@Bryan:
What?! The two mode was developed by GM with BMW and Daimler-Chrysler (before they parted ways) as a transmission driven hybrid. This was based off of GM's earlier work on hybrid buses which have been running around for quite some time now, and actually saving quite a bit of gas. Do you have any kind of actual evidence to back up your Toyota fanboy claims?
@zamafir:
Don't compare pre 2008 EPA ratings to post 2008 (or just get your facts straight). There are certain benefits to your Jetta over an Aura , I'll give you that, but mileage isn't one of them. Here are the 2008 EPA city/hwy figures for your Jetta in automatic and manual form and the links for each one:
Jetta 2.0T, Automatic 6 speed
22/29
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24028.shtml
Jetta 2.0T, Manual 6 speed
21/29
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24323.shtml
The Aura Hybrid soundly beats those numbers by a solid 2-3mpg city AND 3mpg highway! Not to mention, your car requires premium fuel over the regular the Aura runs on.
Aura Hybrid (4 speed auto)
24/32
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24400.shtml
In fact, even the base non-hybrid Aura beats the numbers of your 2.0T by about 1mpg city and highway:
Aura (4 speed auto, base 2.4L i4)
22/30
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24397.shtml
Now you may be saying, "Hey, that's not a fair comparison. You should be comparing the base Aura to a base Jetta, not the 2.0T." But the base Aura beats those numbers by 1mpg as well.
Jetta auto or manual (2.5L i5 base)
21/29
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/24324.shtml
Not only that, but the base Aura just about matches the power output of the base Jetta. If you look at the above and consider that the Aura is a larger car than the Jetta (about a foot longer) is larger in every interior dimension including more than 2 inches more rear legroom (!) I think the Aura is clearly the superior car when it comes to mileage. Price is close, but you can probably get the Aura Green Line for less and the Malibu Hybrid is priced about the same as the Wolfsburg Edition. The performance is a trade off as far as how much car you really need.
psarhjinian @ Mar 7th 2008 12:32AM
@Brett
Oh, very elegantly said. Remind me never to debate you because I'm obviously such a n00b.
* Technically, Toyota has been making production hybrids longer than GM (and no, diesel/electric locomotives do not count), albeit outside of North America. The Hino and Toyota Dyna hybrid trucks have been around longer than GM's hybrid buses or the GMT900 trucks (the mid-90s, I believe). Toyota still has the credit for the first mass-produced hybrid (the Prius). Up until just a few months ago, GM had nothing, and the two-mode system is not yet available in anything smaller than a half-ton truck.
* Two-mode and HSD are actually fairly similar; Toyota's system requires more adept powertrain management; GM's moves much of the logic into the transmission. Toyota's system is a better fit for smaller vehicles and is adaptable to a broader range of vehicles (because it can work with any transmission), while GM's is better suited for truck use specifically (because it is slightly better at delivering engine torque and is a drop-in replacement for the four-speed they currently use). Six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
And really, "Toyota steals" and "Toyotas are ugly" are your closing statements? That'd be like a Toyota fan saying "GM cars will break down" or "GM cars are like Fisher-Price toys". Neither argument has any real merit, and it only serves to make the poster look like a fourteen-year-old.
GM has done some good work as of late, but they're still gong-bangers par excellence when it comes to public relations. The fact that there's people who think that GM has actually leapfrogged Toyota _when they don't actually have any product for sale_ is an example of just how well GM's tactic of bedazzlement and repetition really works.