Navistar suing Ford... again
Ford and Navistar are once again going to court over the automaker's plans to develop a 4.4L diesel engine inhouse for the F-150. The original lawsuit was thrown out last June, with the judge ordering the two corporations to iron out their differences in mediation. Since no progress has been made outside the legal system, Navistar has refiled its claim. In the suit, Navistar is claiming the light-duty diesel engine violates the agreement once made between the two companies, which states that Navistar be Ford's primary supplier of oil burners. Navistar is also alleging that the 4.4L diesel that Ford's currently developing is in fact International's 4.4L Lion V8 project that cost Navistar $11 million to develop. It's hard to pinpoint how or why Navistar is so sure Ford is using the Lion project 4.4L, considering that the supplier has received no official specs of the engine from Ford.We're not exactly Dr. Phil, but it appears that Navistar has a bone to pick with Ford. Considering the fact that Ford isn't using its long-time supplier to develop and produce its light-duty diesel engine, the Dearborn, MI automaker is none too pleased with Navistar, either. We think the judge should order Navistar's fugly new International Lonestar to take on a pair of F-450s in a concrete cage match – the winner gets the contract for the F-150 diesel engine.
[Source: Automotive News, subs. req'd]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Jose 9:18AM (2/29/2008)
Ford is still in business?
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Jared 9:19AM (2/29/2008)
"is in fact International's 4.4L Lion V8 project that cost Navistar $11 million to develop."
I'm sure that it cost a lot more than $11 million. Could you try a little more care when writing your posts?
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Brent 12:06PM (3/03/2008)
I laughed at the $11 million figure. So far off.
The Other Bob 9:27AM (2/29/2008)
Maybe if Navistar hadn't built such a POS engine, Ford would still be using them as a supplier.
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rar 9:31AM (2/29/2008)
Bob, you hit the nail on the head!
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psarhjinian 9:33AM (2/29/2008)
Perhaps the self-destructing Powerstroke 6.0L might have something with Ford's unwillingness to due business with International/Navistar?
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mike 9:43AM (2/29/2008)
Ohh here we go. Chris has provided his amazing commentary.
PLEASE, the only one with a bone here is you. You are simply trying to suck up to a company that is a big part of your job.
Navistar is not, so you side with ford.
Grow Up.
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Chris Shunk 9:47AM (2/29/2008)
Jared: From Automotive News: "In the June 2007 suit, Navistar says it spent $11 million to develop the Lion engine, while Ford contributed no funding" We try not to pull numbers out of our tails, though we sometimes make mistakes like everyone else. In the future, make an effort to review our source when you have questions about numbers.
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brn 9:53AM (2/29/2008)
All trucks have their issues. The single largest issue with Ford Super Duties is the Navistar. The engines are reportedly strong, but the maintenance is reportedly unacceptable. Ford is more than capable of producing diesel engines,so why shouldn't they? Yes, Navistar can claim Ford is violating the contract, but Ford can claim an out, due to a poor quality product.
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Guenther 10:33AM (2/29/2008)
The engine Ford is planing to use is most definitely the Lion engine, since they have stated time and time again that it is derived from the Range rover engine which IS a Lion V8. Development of the 4.4L wasn't terribly expensive, since it was just another derivation. The whole Lion project of course, cost much more.
The stink in all this goes back to 2002, when Ford was initially supposed to start using the 4.5L V6. Ford backed out of using a small diesel altogether at the time.
About that same time, Ford began using the 6L V8 Powerstroke(on which the 4.5L V6 is based) in the Super Duty trucks. These engines had injector problems, which weren't entirely ITEC's fault. It gets a little murky from there on.
Now ITEC is (rightfully) barking that Ford will be using a diesel engine not supplied by them (ITEC).
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Robert 11:16AM (2/29/2008)
Well, there are several aspects to the story. The first is the 4.5 V6 that Ford canned last minute. They still use it in their LCF, but not their F-series. The second is the disaster that is the 6.0. The third is the pricing for the 6.4. And then finally we reach Navistar being concerned that Ford won't renew their contract beyond the 6.4 - a multi-year, multi-billion dollar contract right now.
Now, the 4.4L is based on the Land Rover 3.6 architecture diesel, a line called Lion but not Navistar derived. If Navistar did work on the new 4.4 project, it was limited to initial scoping, design and prototyping - probably to develop power, economy and price estimates to "bid" as a supplier - and not full development (hence the $11 million price tag). Unless they own a key piece of technology on the engine that Ford is also using - not very likely because the engine architecture is not Navistar derived like the 6.0 and 6.4 were - I don't know that they can claim it is their engine. I'm sure rumors of Ford developing its own big-block diesel probably has Navistar angered as well.
Navistar really need to move on. It will suck from an earnings perspective for a couple years, but the relationship is no longer healthy, and that will only hurt both companies in the long-run.
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Reuben 12:41AM (3/01/2008)
Absolutely correct Robert.
The new diesel is called the scorpion 6.7L and it is apparently amazing
Jared 11:16AM (2/29/2008)
Chris:
Do you REALLY believe that Navistar developed an engine for just $11M?
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Jim 11:56AM (2/29/2008)
"Well, there are several aspects to the story. The first is the 4.5 V6 that Ford canned last minute. They still use it in their LCF, but not their F-series."
Hold on there- There were rumors of a 4.5 liter V6 diesel in Ford light trucks, but there was never any confirmation that it would have been the VT275 (i.e. the engine in the LCF.) The VT275 is way too heavy for a 1/2 ton F150 or Expedition, and since it still uses the HEUI injection system, too noisy as well.
"The second is the disaster that is the 6.0."
does anyone know how reliable the VT365 is in International trucks vs. Ford trucks?
"The third is the pricing for the 6.4."
Yeah, well, Navistar isn't under any obligation to lose money at Ford's behest. This "Detroit Three" mentality of "we're not making money, so our suppliers shouldn't either" isn't going to get them anywhere.
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Guenther 5:19PM (3/01/2008)
it most certainly was the VT275 that was to go into the F150. Weight was an issue, but it probably would have used the high GVW (7lug) hardware. The bigger issue was Ford marketing being unconviced they could sell a truck with much less hp than the gas V8 for a premium.
Vik 12:13PM (2/29/2008)
Jared- perhaps you didn't read Robert's post:
"Now, the 4.4L is based on the Land Rover 3.6 architecture diesel, a line called Lion but not Navistar derived. If Navistar did work on the new 4.4 project, it was limited to initial scoping, design and prototyping - probably to develop power, economy and price estimates to "bid" as a supplier - and not full development (hence the $11 million price tag). Unless they own a key piece of technology on the engine that Ford is also using - not very likely because the engine architecture is not Navistar derived like the 6.0 and 6.4 were - I don't know that they can claim it is their engine. I'm sure rumors of Ford developing its own big-block diesel probably has Navistar angered as well."
Moreover, if you do not trust the author's source, then the very LEAST you could do is post a source yourself. At least the author has a source to refer to. So far, all you've got is some angry sounding internet posts and exactly ZERO references to back them up.
Try again.
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indi500fan 1:38PM (2/29/2008)
part of the "no lawyer left behind" program
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ford sales 2:24PM (2/29/2008)
eh, i find these lawsuits informative. as it's about the easiest way for ford dealers and customers to even get an IDEA OF WHAT'S COMING. great advertising Ford.....
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Stuka 4:31PM (2/29/2008)
I don't blame ford one bit for wanting to move in house. It will save them a good deal of money, but also may result in a better quality product. Which is very important, as a recall cost a whole lot of money and angers owners.
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James 4:47PM (2/29/2008)
I can't wait for Ford to start making their own engines and finally dump Navistar once and for all. This way if there are any issues with future products we know where the problems will be coming from.
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