Filed under: Detroit Auto Show, Hybrids/Alternative, Green, Lexus, Toyota
Detroit '09 Preview: Lexus-branded Prius to debut
Last month, we brought you the words of Toyota president Katsuaki Watanabe who announced that at next year's NAIAS in Detroit, his company would be unveiling a pair of dedicated hybrid models: a replacement for the lamentably iconic current Toyota Prius, and a dedicated luxury hybrid from Lexus. The latter would be the first standalone hybrid model from the luxury brand, which until now has made a name for itself producing gasoline/electric versions of its standard models.
Emerging reports now suggest that the Lexus hybrid Watanabe-san alluded to in Detroit will actually be a rebadged luxury version of the next-gen Prius, taking on a "lifestyle wagon" design based on the more basic Toyota. While the notion of a lightweight Prius being laden down with Lexus-grade luxury equipment may seem at odds, somehow we doubt the Hollywood crowd will be bothered.
[Source: Motor Trend]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
AZMike 11:53AM (2/26/2008)
it's this just precious news!!
all the Japanese fanboys are always so quick to point out how terrrible badge-engineering is on the lowly domestics, and should be stopped.
will this be a bad thing for the Prius-in-a-party-dress, or will it be seen as a "brilliant move" by the smartest darn car manufacturer in the world?
AZMike
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R 1:10PM (2/26/2008)
Can't remember the last time I saw anyone credible saying it should be stopped that was a "japanese fanboy." Got a link? Because, I mean, Lexus has been badge engineering for quite some time, if not since their very beginnings.
AZMike 1:28PM (2/26/2008)
R,
there have probably been hundreds of threads about this subject in the past year. whenever a topic concerning domestics comes up, like the Tahoe/Yukon, Crown Vic/Mercury Marquis, Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan, etc., all the fans of imports tell us how stupid this is; badge-engineering doesn't work, signs of despiration, etc.
believe me, I'm far from disagreeing with you. I'm well-aware that the Japanese would be nowhere without it. it's just that the Japanese fanboys never seem to see the parallels.
it's this very basic formula: domestics=bad; if imports do it=brilliant, original, well-thought-out, forward thinking.
AZMike
tekdemon 4:55AM (3/04/2008)
Having tons of divisions that overlap in customer base selling the exact same car under 3 different names is the problem, not badge engineering itself. It's perfectly fine for Cadillacs to share the same platform as a Chevy.
The problem is when GM has to split their ad budget 3/4 ways because the exact same car is a Pontiac and a Chevy and an Oldsmobile and a Buick...and a Saturn. At least there's no Oldsmobile now, lol.
Honda badge engineers with Acura and Lexus, although they at least keep it unique for the US nowadays (even though the TSX is just a Euro accord at least there's no Euro accord in the honda division).
If you make the cars different enough it's not a big deal is my point. It's just a waste of advertising money though if you have to run 3 separate ad campaigns instead of a massive campaign for one brand.
I really think GM needs to merge the Chevy and Pontiac brands. Buick I'm not sure sure about because a low-end Cadillac would likely have more appeal for buyers who aren't 65+, even though I like the Lucerne, it's really not enough to justify keeping an entire brand.
John Calkins 11:56AM (2/26/2008)
You know that if Lexus is putting their name on a hybrid. Then it will be a success. http://hotcookies.net
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Tool 11:59AM (2/26/2008)
Arguably, Toyota is better at 'badge-engineering' than anyone. Every manufacturer does it, but none better than Toyota.
They are able to take platforms (the Camry, for example) and make many derivatives that actually are pretty unique and serve its target audiences pretty well.
Are all of them hits? No. Arguably Lexus has been most successful on products that we created specifically for that channel--the LS, the IS.
The idea of a premium Prius makes a lot of sense. If you get a fully equipped Prius, it is already over $28,000. Add some bells and whistles to make it TRULY luxurious, you could probably sell 40-50,000 units.
Of course, it won't look like a Prius, but because it shares the same platform, many of the hardpoints are there.
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Vincenzo 12:16PM (2/26/2008)
Isn't it a good idea to have a few cars that look differently but share the platform?
Look at BMW, they use the opposite idea. Inside they are different ( for example, 328 and M3), but there are only subtle differences in the exterior. They utilize the same design, kind of boring.
psarhjinian 12:32PM (2/26/2008)
Badge engineering is not the same as platform sharing:
* Would you consider the Altima, Maxima and Murano badge engineered?
* What about the Mazda6, Fusion, Edge, CX-7 and CX-9?
* What about the 9-3 and Malibu?
* What about the Civic and CR-V?
* The Echo and gen-1 xB?
No, they share a common base architecture and, usually, powertrain, but they're quite different, both mechanically and cosmetically. A badge-engineered example (very little fundamental differences) would be, say, Cobalt/G5 or Fusion/Milan.
Toyota doesn't really badge-engineer as much as people accuse them of. The Camry/ES (in the last two generations) and the LX/Land Cruiser are the only really egregious examples. Everything is actually fairly well differentiated.
JonInAtl 12:07PM (2/26/2008)
Cadillac Cimarron
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Ligor 12:12PM (2/26/2008)
many manufacturers have done it, but I think with GM showing the Tahoe, Yukan, escalade the canges were so minor - I mean the interior was exactly the same in all therr (except for seat material)
Others like Toyonda use the same chasis adn structure but give unique body panels and a unique interior adn unless you're into cars, you would not know they share the same underpinings - you see you need to keep the consumer blind, like our gov't does
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letstakeawalk 12:26PM (2/26/2008)
Nobody is saying that slapping a Lexus badge on the Prius is "keeping the customer blind." Platform sharing is common in more industries than just automobiles.
The issue here is the hypocrisy of selling a vehicle which has as a fundamental goal fuel economy when that same vehicle is larded down with luxury. Lexus will sell plenty of these, I have no doubt - but how many will be sold to people like Laurie David, who wants Bob Lutz to be fired because of his skepticism regarding Global Climate Change. Naturally, Ms. David owns a private jet, which she uses to travel between her homes on both coasts.
I'm glad hybrid technology has been successful, but I lament the trend to move the vehicles upmarket, when they would be more effective if they were more affordable to a larger demographic.
MarcT 12:20PM (2/26/2008)
"lamentably iconic"....."rebadged luxury version"
Shoddy journalism. You should be ashamed.
There is nothing lamentable about the iconic status of a vehicle as revolutionary and game changing as the Prius. And sharing a platorm is nowhere near the Detroit habit of rebadging. There is absolutely nothing that would make one presume that the Lexus version will not be stylistically unique and luxurious while still having the remarkable fuel economy and emissions that will be achievable due to it sharing a platform with the Prius.
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Wally 12:22PM (2/26/2008)
This should take those Green Snobs to a new height........
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Chris 12:38PM (2/26/2008)
Fully loaded Priuses are near 30k, which makes this more interesting as I suspect the Lexus will cross into the mid 30s...
right into VOLT territory. Should be an interesting match.
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psarhjinian 12:43PM (2/26/2008)
So why is the Prius "lamentably iconic?" Because it's the iconic Greenie-mobile? Does that make the Mustang (or Camaro) "lamentably iconic" because it's the iconic mullet mobile?
We get it. Autoblog doesn't like the Prius, the Tundra or the new Ford Focus. Can we please stop kicking them every other day?
I've met a few Prius drivers and they're by and large normal people who bought a car that suited their needs and lifestyle, which is exactly the same choice that any car buyer makes. I think a lot of people have a huge chip on their collective shoulder about Toyota's overdog status and the co-opting of automobile industry by the green movement. It's like there's some latent jealousy about how "their" hobby has been hijacked by people whom they don't want to like, and they need to find a reason to dislike and discredit them even more.
Is a Hollywood celeb driving around in a Prius or Lexus hybrid any more of a twerp than one driving around in an Escalade, Hummer or (in Aston Kucher's amusing case) an small International? No. At least they're trying, even if they're not quite getting the message.
There's also a not-insignificant amount of brand bias here. I think all the GM fans (yes, GM, not Chrysler or Ford) need to ask themselves this question: if GM hadn't screwed the pooch for the better part of the last two decades and released an equally capable hybrid, would you be as "down" on that car?
I'm guessing the answer is mostly no, and a lot of that has to do with insecurity about "your brand" than it does about legitimate criticisms about what is actually a pretty impressive piece of engineering.
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gsolman6 1:00PM (2/26/2008)
psarhjinian: You are absolutely right that there is a double standard on this board.
AZMike 1:19PM (2/26/2008)
"co-opting the green movement?" please, spare me!
Toyota subsidizes each and every Prius it produces, so they can do what they do best; sell for less than cost, and take over a particular segment of the market. how do you think they got to where they are today? they sold ALL their vehicles for less than cost in the USA until Congress started a proble into it in the early 1980's.
I could hurl every time I hear how envoirnmentally concious Toyota is. am I tripping, or is this the same company that had their sights set on 350,000+ Tundras, plus Sequoias per year? have these suddenly turned "green" too, or do all the "green" folks look the other way and whistle when one goes by?
the hard reality here is that the much-vaunted huge hybrid market is actually a little teeny-tiny niche market.
to wit:
-why are dealers having to chop the roots from the Camry Hybrid, even after two "decontentings" (read, stripping of equipment). there is already talk of discontinuing the hybrid version of the Camry.
-why are massive discounts for the Prius showing up all over the country? could it be the market has been saturated, and every person who wanted a hybrid has one?
-if there is such a market for hybrids (and those dumb 'ol folks at GM are just plain stupid) why did Honda discontinue two of the three hybrids they made, the Accord hybrid, and the granddaddy of them all, the Insight? has Honda lost their "green", or God forbid, did they see them as the money-losers they are for the corporation?
I seriously doubt they sing "Kumbaya" when every Prius comes down the line in Toyota City; it's all about the bucks, folks. when a model ceases to be profitable, it's curtains. end of story.
vLane 1:41PM (2/26/2008)
AZMike = moron.
1. The Prius is sold at a profit, not subsidized. Source: Patrick Bedard's first C/D test back in late 2003.
2. Prius sales crossed 100,000 in 2005 (the first year they could ALMOST make enough to meet demand) and have generally been rising ever year. It is now, I believe, the sixth best-selling car in America to real people (behind Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, and Altima).
3. Honda killed the Accord Hybrid because it looked like any other Accord, and because hybridizing an inherent gas guzzler is a dumb idea that fooled no one -- a little nugget of insight GM apparently didn't pick up.
psarhjinian 12:50PM (2/26/2008)
How well designed this is depends a lot on how it's targeted. If Toyota uses this as a chance to go full-gonzo on weight saving--a Prius with aluminum and carbon fibre everywhere--and charges a premium for materials, then this could make sense.
If they go the LS600h route, well, you have to wonder why. I like the LS600h, and in high gridlock areas (ie, most of urban Japan), it's actually a pretty smart choice as a chauffeured sedan--moreso than it's competitors that lack idle-stop and regen braking. For a more balanced cycle and for use by more normal lifestyles, it's not as wise a choice as, say, an Prius, Highlander Hybrid or RX400h.
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Tom Castle 1:00PM (2/26/2008)
Sorry, having differently badged trim levels (one basic level, one luxury level) isn't badge engineering - or at least not egregious badge engineering.
No, what GM gets slammed for is things like the Cobalt/G5, which is where badge engineering gets its bad name. The G5 isn't a premium Cobalt, it's just a rebadged Cobalt. They're both competing in the same part of the market. There's no meaningful difference. It is, in a word, moronic. That's far different from platform-sharing where one car is a mid-market family car and the other is a premium luxury car.
And although GM is famous for this, more recently their platform sharing has been more artfully executed - the Malibu / 9-3 mentioned above is a good example. In fact, I'd like to see more of it. I'd love a RWD 306-hp Pontiac based on the CTS and I suspect a LOT of other people would, too. But keep it at that - Cadillac and Pontiac, not Pontiac and Chevy selling the same goddam car.
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