Ford absolutely NEEDS to bring the Mondeo over to the States. It would be the flagship of their sedans and cast a very good light on the company. They have competent designs, just incompetent marketing. How about bringing the Falcon replacement we are going to see soon over to get in on the performance sedan market? How about the Euro Focus? And how about giving the Mustang an interior that's above Dodge quality?

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A manual transmission that uses shift paddles behind the steering wheel is just as real as a manual transmission that uses a foot-operated clutch. And before we rehash another foot-clutch-vs-hand-paddle debate, it has all been discussed earlier, see below.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/21/private-dancer-tina-turner-s-mercedes-powered-lambo-lm002/#comments

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no

if it does not have 3 pedals, i will not even look at it

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Thank you naggs! If I want a tranny to shift for me Ill buy an auto. I dont buy it for the preformance I but it for the feel.

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naggs @ Jan 23rd 2008 4:33PM wrote: "if it does not have 3 pedals, i will not even look at it"

Then you might want to cover your eyes from the Enzo Ferrari, the Lamborghini Reventon, the Bugatti Veyron, Formula One racing, and IndyCar racing. None of the above uses a foot-operated third pedal. From a performance standpoint, the paddle-shifting manual transmission is superior.

BTW, even if Ford completely stopped to offer the traditional manual in its vehicles, it's not as if it would miss out on a whole lot of sales. Domestic and global consumer demand has strongly favored automatics (and even paddle shifters) over the traditional manual. See article below.

Link:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/12/automatics-to-exceed-manuals-worldwide-in-2007/

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Cars need to have 3 pedals, I don't care about performance i don't care about 0-60 times, I care about something that is fun to drive, about being a part of the machine, not just having an appliance.

More clutch pedals please!

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Ah, RocketBreath... you love to point out the fact that exotic, expensive cars that no one depends upon for actual transportation (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti) have lots of automated paddle-shifted transmissions as the reason we should all want one in our daily drivers. (You also like to conveniently leave out sections of others' posts to make it look like one thing they said relates to another when it doesn't, as I just learned in the above reference you posted back to Tina Turner's LM002, but that's another issue.)

It's not like a Ferrari is practical or affordable to own. If its AutoManual needs to be serviced, Claudio at the Ferrari shop will be glad to fix it for you, his kids need braces and college tuition, after all. You of course will ignore practicality as you ignored my comment about the ability to convince a manual to limp home more readily than an AutoManual... you as much as stated that my car with the snapped clutch cable must have been abused or poorly maintained, when in fact it had about 130k relatively trouble-free miles when the clutch cable gave up.

You're welcome to buy your flappy paddles. I certainly prefer them to a conventional automatic with a sloppy torque converter, but I like the direct feel and control of a GOOD fully-manual transmission and clutch. Comparing a reliable, straightforward clutch and manual transmission with a Model T is a cheap, deceptive and disingenuous attempt to obscure the real issue, and if I thought you actually believed there was some valid comparison there (rather than baiting on the internet as you were probably doing) I'd think you didn't understand something about manual transmissions.

I don't want to see good manual transmissions go away. I'm not likely to be buying a Ferrari anytime soon, but lots of the cars I might otherwise consider have slushboxes only these days, and that's sad. If flappy paddles bring about fewer torque converters, they could be a good development. If more people knew how their car actually worked and were a little more in tune with what was happening, something that seems to come naturally when you are controlling more aspects of the car's operation, I think that would be an even better thing.

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Only three pedals are real manuals.

Paddle shifters with clutch based automatics are a huge step up from traditional torque converter automatics though.

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Icon149 @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:46PM wrote: "Cars need to have 3 pedals, I don't care about performance... I care about something that is fun to drive... not just having an appliance."

First, fun is a subjective term. Your personal definition for fun is just as valid as someone else's personal definition for fun. Your choice of a foot-operated clutch for fun, is just as valid as my choice of a hand-operated clutch for fun, is just as valid as someone else's choice of a clutchless automatic for fun.

Second, since when was a Ferrari, a Lambo, or a Bugatti an appliance? For someone who claims not to care about performance, you are the last person qualified to call any car an appliance.

I respect stick enthusiasts' choice of transmission as much as they respect my choice of paddle shifters. But call them "appliances" that are "not real", and I will remind you:
• Some of the world's finest sports cars, from the Enzo Ferrari to the Lamborghini Reventon to the Bugatti Veyron, only offers paddle shifters to the exclusion of the traditional stick.
• Formula One and IndyCar racing has some of the most skillful drivers in the world, and they race with paddle shifters, not the traditional stick.
• Driving with a traditional stick doesn't make anyone a real man. Only a woman can do that.

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DKB_SATX @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:57PM wrote: "You also like to conveniently leave out sections of others' posts..."
Here's the thing: This isn't a book review in a high school or college. If I carefully quoted every sentence and offered an in-depth analysis of every word, you would be complaining my posts are too long. You can't have it both ways.

DKB_SATX: "Comparing a reliable, straightforward clutch and manual transmission with a Model T is a cheap, deceptive and disingenuous attempt to obscure the real issue..."
Please don't blame me if you missed the point. You stated that a traditional manual (one with a foot-operated clutch) is mechanically simpler, and therefore more reliable. I showed you a well-documented example, the Ford Model T, where simplicity does not equal reliability. Whether you did it on purpose or not, you said something that was false. I showed everyone why it was false.

DKB_SATX: "you ignored my comment about the ability to convince a manual to limp home more readily than an AutoManual... you as much as stated that my car with the snapped clutch cable must have been abused or poorly maintained, when in fact it had about 130k relatively trouble-free miles when the clutch cable gave up."
There's no easy way to say this, so I will just tell you bluntly: It was your own fault that your transmission broke after just 130K miles. A reliable and well-maintained car doesn't do that after just 130K miles. Why did I ignore your comment? Because it was a really bad piece of advice. It is bad advice to say: buy a traditional manual because it allows you to limp home if you don't maintain your unreliable car. It is better advice to say: buy a car with a good track record for reliability and maintain it properly, so you don't snap your cable to begin with.

DKB_SATX: "If more people knew how their car actually worked and were a little more in tune with what was happening..."
Excuse me, but when your clutch cable broke after just 130K miles, you are not really qualified to make that statement.

DKB_SATX: "you love to point out the fact that exotic, expensive cars... have... paddle-shifted transmissions as the reason we should all want one in our daily drivers... It's not like a Ferrari is practical or affordable to own."
I make that point to counter the myth that paddle shifters are not good enough. As in: If they are good enough for (even preferred by) the finest sports cars, they are more than good enough for our daily drivers. And they are not just limited to expensive cars from Italy. Paddle shifters can be found in cars that the average joe has access to, with good performance, practicality, reliability, and affordability.

DKB_SATX: "I like the direct feel and control of a GOOD fully-manual transmission and clutch."
Of course you would prefer a traditional manual for its subjective, touchy-feely aspects (versus a paddle shifter). After all, who could possibly prefer it for its inferior performance in every objective measure? Formula One and IndyCar racers certainly don't, and that's all the endorsement needed for paddle shifters.

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BigRocket: And again you show you're not reading what you're arguing with. My transmission on my '80 Capri RS Turbo didn't break in any way. It functioned perfectly when I gave the car to my dad with about 160k miles on it. The clutch cable broke, which was not an item listed on the maintenance schedule and had not changed appreciably in its feel in the time I'd owned the car, from about 20k miles until the failure around 140k. You know less than nothing about my cars, the maintenance of said cars, and you're assuming things not mentioned or presented because they're convenient to you. As your your also unsupported statement that I'm not qualified to make any comment about whether or not it would be better if more drivers understood something about how their car works, again you're incorrect about how much I know about how cars (and mine in particular) work. You were wrong, as I pointed out, about what was broken (while a clutch is an integral part of the drivetrain of a normal manual-transmission car, it's not part of the transmission, the transmission was never broken, and you're sadly trying to make a point you've already lost.) If I were going to make wild unsupported assumptions as you've been doing, I'd state that you don't know how a manual transmission works in a modern car but you're probably just phrasing things to make you sound good.

In your Model T straw man, you're talking about a very primitive car that in fact doesn't have a conventional clutch nor anything much like a modern synchromesh transmission. What I said in fact was "I'll stick with lighter, less-complex, more-reliable." While less complex does not always equate to more reliable, I'd wager that over time, comparing reasonably similar vehicles, less-complex conventional manual transmissions will have a reliability advantage for many years to come.

As I'd said before, you're welcome to your paddle-shifted automanuals, and if you're buying Ferraris, enjoy your shifting advantages measured in 100ths on a stopwatch. If you can afford a Ferrari and a daily driver, you'll have something to drive while the Ferrari is in the shop. Go buy an F1 car to drive around tracks and get a paddle-shift thrill every time you pull on it. I don't want paddle-shifted automanuals to cease to exist, I'd be perfectly happy if they replaced most or all the torque-converter automatics because they're more efficient and it would suck less when I need to rent a car in the US.

My point, and I think the point of many others, is that I like a manual transmission and want them to continue to be available. I've driven both, for the time being I've chosen manuals. I've never driven a Ferrari or an F1 car, and I'm not in the market for either. If you want to stand on your soapbox until the sun goes dark and cherry pick words from others' postings because you think it makes you look like God's Own Engineer, fine. You're not convincing anyone by being stubborn and refusing to concede that anyone else might have a valid point on the topic, and I'll smile if I pass you on the side of the road when your DSG has decided neutral is its gear of choice for the moment or, as VW's version seems wont to do, refuses to move the car when you start on a cold morning.

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DKB_SATX @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:23PM wrote: "... on my '80 Capri RS Turbo... The clutch cable broke, which... had not changed appreciably in its feel in the time I'd owned the car..."
I find it hard to believe that the clutch cable would just break all of a sudden without warning, such as a noticeable change in its feel, especially for someone who claimed to appreciate the touchy-feely aspects of a traditional manual. But more to the point, a Mercury Capri (or any Ford/Mercury for that matter) wasn't a shining example of reliability even compared to its peers in the 1980's era. Even when you regularly do all the proper maintance on your cars, I would still advise you to buy your next car with a better track record for reliability.

DKB_SATX: "You know less than nothing about my cars, the maintenance of said cars, and you're assuming things not mentioned or presented because they're convenient to you."
When you provide incomplete information, anyone would be forced to make assumptions. You told me your clutch cable broke with relatively low miles, I assumed it was not a reliable car company and/or the car was not properly maintained, and it turned out I was correct. And I still believe you are not qualified to stand on a soap box and wish other people knew more about their cars, because if you had known more about yours, you would have noticed a change in the feel of your clutch pedal.

DKB_SATX: "You were wrong... about what was broken (while a clutch is an integral part of the drivetrain of a normal manual-transmission car, it's not part of the transmission..."
I am willing to participate in discussions of substance about the pros and cons of traditional manuals versus paddle shifters. But I am going to excuse myself from discussions of semantics, in which I don't like to get bogged down.

DKB_SATX: "While less complex does not always equate to more reliable, I'd wager that over time, comparing reasonably similar vehicles, less-complex conventional manual transmissions will have a reliability advantage for many years to come."
In contrast, I'd wager a paddle shifter is more reliable than a traditional manual over the years. Why? You never grind your gears with a missed shift, you never rev past redline on purpose or by accident, and you remove a lifetime of user errors and abuses from the transmission.

DKB_SATX: "... you're welcome to your paddle-shifted automanuals, and if you're buying Ferraris, enjoy your shifting advantages measured in 100ths on a stopwatch. If you can afford a Ferrari and a daily driver, you'll have something to drive while the Ferrari is in the shop... I'll smile if I pass you on the side of the road..."
Here we go again, a stick enthusiast spreading more myths about paddle shifters:
• Manual transmissions with paddle shifting are available in many different cars, from the reasonably priced (around the $30K's), to the exotics (Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc). As a result of the price spread, paddle shifters are well within the financial reach of the average Joe.
• A well-engineered car with a well-engineered paddle shifter does not mean more repairs, when properly maintained as any car should be. It can even reduce the need for repairs, by removing user errors such as missed shifts and revs past redline.
• A paddle shifter is not merely about a barely noticeable performance improvement in the real world. It also removes the need to operate a third pedal, allowing the driver to focus on the road and traffic conditions. What some call driver engagement in the operation of a third pedal, others call driver distraction.

DKB_SATX: "My point, and I think the point of many others, is that I like a manual transmission and want them to continue to be available."
You know, if stick enthusiasts would consistently stick to that message, I would not have bothered to enter the discussion. But when you are the one standing on a soapbox and spreading myths about paddle shifters, don't be too surprised if someone points out you are wrong.

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Well, I'm done with you in this forum at least. You'll undoubtedly post something after, thinking that he who posts last wins. It seems that your own point of view is all that you care about, and no other view is possible. You're also an absolute ass about your idiotic assertions that someone you've never met, driving a car you've never seen much less examined in detail and the service record of which you know very little about must have been poorly maintained because you wish that to be the truth, lie that it is. Because I maintained my Capri very well (my father was a mechanic and taught me a great deal) I was able to use my Capri for reliable transportation long after most of the 2.3 Turbos of the era had given up the ghost. Not because it was some paragon of reliability, but because it was well maintained.

I'm guessing you don't even own a car with an automanual, or you might have mentioned something about it. Pine on for your paragon of perfection and I hope you enjoy it when you eventually buy one. Since you don't care about the opinion of others, I'll stop caring about yours in this thread.

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DKB_SATX: I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Truth be told, I tried hard to see things the way you do, and of all the things you wrote, the only things that made sense to me were:
• Some people like the subjective feel of a clutch. I don't have a problem with people's personal preferences.
• A traditional manual has less weight than a paddle shifter. Technically, this is true. I didn't want to mention this earlier, but when I looked at the specs for the Audi R8, the weight difference is only 11 lbs, or 0.3% (3605 vs 3616 lbs). Hardly the performance penalty you had implied.

Like I said, I have no problem with stick enthusiasts and their personal preference for the traditional manual. I do have a problem with guys like you who spread myths to slander something others enjoy. And you kept mentioning how reliable your stick shift was from way back in 1980, and how unreliable modern paddle shifters must be due to their complexity, without ever considering how the electronic nanny-safeguard could save your transmission and your engine from damage due to mis-shifts and over-revving. Next time, tell us how much you enjoy your stick shift without unnecessary myths, and I won't bother to join the discussion and rain on your parade. I can extend at least that courtesy to you and your fellow stick enthusiasts. Have a nice day.

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