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mk @ Jan 14th 2008 12:47AM
Ok... so you have your family in a vehicle with these three things:
Hydrogen gas (fuel cell fuel)
high voltage
Lithium-based batteries.
Does this say fiery crash to anyone else?
Hydrogen burns very easily, even without a major spark risk like high DC voltage. Not only that, but lithium batteries have a tendency to burn very agressively when ruptured and exposed to oxygen. (both hydrogen and lithium are column 1 of the periodic table, and highly reactive with oxygen, which would be combustion.)
Maybe it will run fine. I wouldn't want to be within a hundred yards if it gets wrecked, and either the hydrogen or lithium batteries become exposed.
I want to see a LOT of crash testing trials before I trust my family in a two-ton rolling incendiary device.
zamafir @ Jan 14th 2008 12:51AM
Fuel Cell cars are still costing close to a mil to build, you and your family won't have to worry about them for some time, at least in the purchasing one at the dealer sense.
Dan Roth @ Jan 14th 2008 12:54AM
"I want to see a LOT of crash testing trials before I trust my family in a two-ton rolling incendiary device."
Just what do you think they're rolling around in now?
mk @ Jan 14th 2008 2:19AM
This particular vehicle may be a ways off. But people are already talking about hydrogen fueled internal combustion, and electric hybrids with lithium batteries.
There are how many car accidents a day in this country?
Even when fuel is spilled, it doesn't automatically ignite without a major ignition source.
DO NOT Try puncturing or short circuiting a Lithium battery. Or releasing hydrogen gas into an oxygenated atmosphere. You might not even need a spark for a fireball.
Hydrogen usually burns pretty clear, anyway. what else will it start on fire before you even see the flames? Not only that but H2 is so small that it can leak past seals, or through porous materials. If enough of it leaks, it could easily cause a fire.
Cars are already recalled for fuel line issues now. Pressurized hydrogen gas is much harder to contain than liquid petrochemical fuel. Materials, construction, and safety engineering are much more involved, and costly for hydrogen. Ask NASA about handling rocket fuel and 0-ring seals.
Lithium fueled fires spread very quickly, and burn at or above 1500 degrees F. That flash ignites a lot of other material in the area, pretty darn quick. Lithium is efficient at storing energy, but it is also good at discharging it, even through combustion, if that is what is available to it.
Even little RC cars and planes and toys come with warnings about over-discharging, over-charging, not balance charging, or puncturing lithium batteries. Toys and personal devices like cell phones and laptops are not subjected to the heat, cold, and impact that cars are potentially subject to, especially in an accident.
People's houses have burned from lithium hobby batteries catching on fire, WITHOUT and external ignition source aside from being plugged into a charger, or having the outer casing damaged.
I am skeptical about putting that sort of a battery in a location that is vulnerable to the destruction potential of a car accident. Cars are getting safer to survive in accidents, in terms of kinetic energy dissipation. Airbags and crumple-zones do no good if you are much more likely to be inside an inferno.
bvz @ Jan 14th 2008 5:09AM
Personally, I would much rather be rolling around in a Hydrogen powered vehicle than a gasoline powered one. Hydrogen, though very flammable, is much much lighter than air (lightest element in existence, much lighter than helium). As such, it does not stick around when released into the atmosphere. If it does not ignite immediately it will simply evaporate completely away in seconds. Gas, on the other hand, is heavier than air and the vapors will collect and pool on the ground for an extended period of time. This time can be measured in minutes to tens of minutes to even longer (as the liquid gas will continue to supply vapors for hours). This means that if there is an accident in a gasoline powered car, the dangerous and highly flammable vapors will pool around the vehicle just waiting for any excuse to ignite and burn. Given these two choices, I suspect you will be much better off in a Hydrogen powered car.
A secondary benefit (which could also be considered a liability in another sense) is that hydrogen gives off almost no heat when burning (that is to say, it burns extremely hot, but just inches away from the flame, there is almost no heat). So, if it is indeed burning, unless you are directly in the flame you will not get burned yourself. Of course, the flip side is that since hydrogen flame is very nearly invisible and gives off almost no heat inches from the flame, it is quite possible to not even know there is a fire and therefore accidentally burn yourself just by accidentally moving into the flame.
Li Ion batteries are another subject. Consumer versions of the batteries are notoriously unstable (just look at all the stories of the exploding laptops in the past year). I do recall, however, seeing a demonstration of some Li Ion batteries that were slated to go into a vehicle that were engineered to not explode. There are videos (on Youtube? I can't find them anymore) of these batteries being set on fire, and shot, and punctured with a nail and in each case, they did not ignite or explode. So, maybe they are better now. I dunno.
My biggest fear with an electric car is that in an accident that the battery pack will short itself on the frame of the car (or some other metal) and that when you reach up to open the door you will be killed by an intense electric shock (or that the rescue services will be injured when trying to use the jaws of life). Still, all things being equal, I would feel marginally safer in an electric/hydrogen car than a gasoline powered one.
My 2 cents.