Filed under: Hybrids/Alternative, Green, Honda, Toyota
Automakers losing interest in performance hybrids
Well, that was short-lived. According to an article in the Freep, automakers are already beginning to disregard the idea of a hot hybrid, despite the benefits in fuel economy, emissions and performance.
The lackluster sales of the Honda Accord Hybrid, which was quasi-marketed as a pseudo-sports sedan, proved that the combination of "performance" and "hybrid" is too much of a stretch for the majority of consumers. While the Priusification of the species continues, with Honda confirming that it will be developing a direct competitor to Toyota's rolling fromage, it's worth mentioning that Toyota's own SARD racing team took the Tokachi 24-hour race this past July in a hybrid-equipped Supra. Not to mention ToMoCo's recent concepts, particularly the FT-HS, that sports a 3.5-liter V6 mounted to its Hybrid Synergy Drive system.
As Sam mentioned in his post over at AutoblogGreen, back in April, the SAE World Congress discussed the viability of performance hybrids, so the idea is still alive and well in the consciousness of the engineering community. Whether we'll see these performance-oriented offerings come to fruition is open to debate.
[Source: Detroit Free Press via AutoblogGreen]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
stefan 9:43AM (12/29/2007)
I realy cant call the accord hybrid a performance car, but the FT-HS would make a great performance hybrid.
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Heydn 8:46PM (12/30/2007)
I totally agree. I never remember hearing it called a performance automobile. And if it was, that's no good!
Throw a hybrid drivetrain into an S2000 or NSX and then see what happens. Or wait and see with the FT-HS.
But don't judge the hybrid performance market by the fate of the Honda Accord Hybrid!!
Avinash machado 9:47AM (12/29/2007)
So what happens to the Lexus LS600h?
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Nacon 9:50AM (12/29/2007)
Hahahaha... stupid Automakers... haven't they realized that customers WANTS high MPG cars? How will they survive when their market ground is still plumbing to the rock-bottom and gas price going sky-rocket upward?
If they could make gasoline-cars over 50mpg, I'd think about it..... while there are some cars with 50 to 200 mpg-in-electric-ratio anyway.
.....stupid automakers.
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refugee7 11:41AM (12/29/2007)
Yes, automakers are stupid. Thats why they sell 15 million vehicles in the United States alone. Damn they are soo dumb for being able to sell a product that is worth a median of 20k. DAMN THEM!
Anyways, its the consumer's choice to buy higher mpg cars. Many people still decide not too. People still have priorities above mpg such as versatility, horsepower, and price.
The main people who buy hybrids are people who want to make sure everyone knows it is a hybrid as a fashion statement. That in itself is stupid.
mike 12:35PM (12/30/2007)
Wasn't the point of the article that consumers did choose: Not to buy performance hybrids, which offer No Benefit over simply a Larger Gas Engine.
If I want a hybrid Camry, I what a High MPG Camry, not a Race car hybrid camry I can pointlessly brag about.
Rafa 10:08AM (12/29/2007)
Hybrid sports car? Doesn´t make any sense.
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refugee7 11:38AM (12/29/2007)
Agreed. The weight of the hybrid system would throw off the balance of a performance car even if it increases torque. For example, a rotary engine really needs the torque at the low end that could come from a battery. Problem? It is dead weight at the higher rpms.
s2d4 12:25PM (12/29/2007)
refugee7 - The applicable type of hybrid in your case: "A petroleum-electric hybrid most commonly uses internal combustion engines and electric batteries to power electric motors"
I am not sure how your example would apply in this situation since the Rotary would simply charge the batteries to power the electric motors....
The Batteries can be placed in different areas of the car to provide the desired weight distribution. ie. Balance.
refugee7 4:40PM (12/29/2007)
Do you know what a rotary engine is? Anyways, yes you could technically put the battery anywhere but that is still additional weight. No one in the automotive world would want that in their vehicle since during track use, the upper rpms are mostly used. Fuel efficiency on the track? Heck no, most people average 8-12 mpg while racing their hearts out.
A performance car with electric motor is like adding a pack donkey to a carriage drawn by 3 other horses. Sure the donkey might be able to pull it from a standstill but the horses are gonna be doing most the work afterwards and the donkey is only gonna slow them down (Ugh, weird example but I hope you get my point).
seoultrain 7:00PM (12/29/2007)
actually that donkey analogy works amazingly well. Did you come up with that yourself?
naggs 12:06AM (12/30/2007)
performance hybrid is a terrible idea
as it is, virtually all sports cars weigh too much, the additional weight and complexity of a hybrid system will never be offset by the the added torque
the increase in mpg is undeniable but is also partially offset by the increase in weight.
once you take into account the thousands that it would add, and the price sensative nature of volume sports cars, you begin to see how this idea is a non starter
toyota will be better off making a 2200 lbs rwd compact than a 3800 lbs 350z competator that costs 5 grand more and gets 3 mpg better
the return of the rwd economy car is way over due
mike 12:39PM (12/30/2007)
But, the Hybrid Sports car will make sense in the future with Nano-tube batteries.
But, for now, simply a large Gas Engine is less expensive if you just want performance.
A hybrid, esp. a PLUG-in hybrid, offers energy independence, and a cheap fuel( off-peak electric ), it should also offer hyper-mileage.
frondeur 10:27AM (12/29/2007)
Hybrid sports cars make sense if you consider them in the same light as hybrid SUVs, a way for eco minded people to look like they are trying to save the planet, while getting less MPG than a diesel equivalent.
The real advantage to a sports car with a hybrid engine would be the instant torque available to the drive through the electric engine. However I think the real alternative to a hybrid sports car will come the day Audi decides to drop a diesel into the R8
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mikomi 11:05AM (12/29/2007)
From a marketing point of view, it makes sense. Hybrids needed to be promoted to the masses. Going green was one. But if you make "performance" hybrids, that's more sexy, more potential buyers. Then gas prices went up, an inconvenient truth was revealed and people started jumping on the green bandwagon. The eco-demographic grew.
But what Honda didn't get right was that people were buying hybrids to make a statement and say "look at me! I'm green!" (regardless whether or not going hybrid is overall better for the environment). Now that Honda realizes this. People bought the Prius over a Civic hybrid because it stood out.
And in the end, it's the bottom line that counts, reason notwithstanding, a car has to sell. And the Prius sold. Anecdotally, when I speak with people, if I mention hybrid they generally think Toyota and Prius. That despite there being other automakers with hybrids.
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LloydChiro 10:32AM (12/30/2007)
Well put, and I agree, Mikomi.
mikeSeven 12:50PM (12/30/2007)
Yes, but the statement they made is "I can read the Fuel Economy sticker". The Prius, no matter what you say about the Civic, still gets 10+ mpg better city mileage.
As for the LS600h, it had and still has FAR Too Much HorsePower to attract an Eco buyer. Had they offered a Realistic 200 hp version it probably would have sold well, and gotten a meaningful and marketable difference in fuel economy. Eco buyers are infected by the wacko horsepower fever of some luxury buyers.
Temple 11:23AM (12/29/2007)
The original Detroit Free Press story linked to is pretty scant on details, and really offers no insight or understanding in the decisions of the automakers. Aside from that Porsche is in development of performance hybrids along with VW to offset the strict new carbon regulation in the EU.
Somewhat off-topic but Detroit Free Press' site is called "FreeP". They couldn't think of a better name?
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Nick 11:35AM (12/29/2007)
quasi marketing a pseudo anything is doomed to fail.
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Casey 11:40AM (12/29/2007)
Didn't I read on this site a few weeks ago that the LS600h has greatly exceeded sales expectations (like doubled or tripled)? Since it is one of only two performance hybrids currently on sale (the GS450h being the other), I'd hardly think that a convincing case can be made for either side of this argument, particularly coming from the Free Press.
The only disappointing performance hybrid model I can really point to is the Accord; all of Toyota's hybrids, performance-oriented or otherwise, are doing fine.
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