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Mr. Oak @ Dec 27th 2007 12:55PM
The grade/type of corn used in ethanol is not the same as what we put on out plates.
Ethanol is only bad because we cannot realistically produce the quantity of E85 to meet our daily needs.
Oh it was really bad for Brazil, enabling them to pay off their national debt etc.
Folks, GM is pursuing Hybrid, Electric and Fuel Cell technologies as well as E-85. All of which contributes to us being less dependent on OPEC.
mooj @ Dec 27th 2007 1:14PM
i think brazil derived its ethanol from sugar cane, which has a drastically better energy input/output ratio than corn, which is the dominant source of ethanol in the US.
As it stands, the growing, fertilization, cultivation and processing of corn into ethanol reuires much more energy and pollutant by-product than it ultimately produces, making it one of the worst energy sources for our vehicles. this is not even taking into consideratio the fact that ethanol has comprable carbon emission signature to gasoline, and actually produces less mpg than conventional gas.
Ethanol is currently an epic hoax, and is used as political ammunition more than anything.
We do not have the climate to produce sugar cane ethanol, as Brazil does. Granted, we CAN theoretically develop technologies to produce the superbly more energy efficient cellulosic ethanol, but archaic corn farming subsidies make that a much less justifiable research expenditure. Subsidies in place, it simply makes economic sense for American ethanol suppliers to continue cramming the corn-derived E85 garbage down our throats.
It was a brilliant marketing move to label E85 the "green fuel". Likwise, it was an epic deception. Idiots be damned.
Mr. Oak @ Dec 27th 2007 2:05PM
@ mooj - So, do tell. What makes the sugar cane derived process so much better that the corn derived process.
Hey, be carefull. I grew up in South America in and around the sugar cane industry.
Look up Demerara sugar.
Here are a couple of things about sugar cane farming (at least in South America) that you probably don't/didn't know. Come harvest time, the sugar cane (acres upon acres) is set on fire. Why? this drives out or kills the snakes. Dude not talking about garden snakes or pesky little diamond back rattlers. Boas, Annacondas, Bushmasters, Parrot Snakes, Water Mochs etc. This process does not harm the sugar cane, but the pollution starts here. Oops, sugar cane does need fertilazition too. Then sugar cane has to be transported to the distilling plant. That process also pollutes. Then transproted to the retail outlets.
So, do tell me now, why is the production of corn based ethanol a more environmentally damaging process?
Agreed on the climate advantage. We can also but sugar from the Islands of the Caribbean, to suppliment what corn we grow here.
The bottom line is, Wind and Solar are the only forms of energy with ZERO environmental impact. Yes Hydrogen has it's downside too.
mooj @ Dec 27th 2007 3:17PM
i wasn't saying that brazilians maintain a more environmentally sound method of ethanol prioduction-- in fact, taking the burning and such into account, they probably do not.
However, sugar cane does contain significantly more sucrose than the maize used in the US for ethanol. The sucrose, the simple hydrocarbon that carries the vital energy of the crop, is what gives it the energy potential. The process for extracting and distilling cane based ethanol is also less demanding of energy, although cultuivation expenditures certainly apply.
All other factors being held equally, you simply get more energy per ton of crop from cane vs. maize.
the carribean and hawaii (maui, mainly) do not have the capacity to produce enough sugar cane to create our ethanol. These locales also incorporate marine shipping costs, whereas Brazil grows these things on the mainland.
cellulosic ethanol is really the way to go, as far as energy independence in the US, but it will take research dollars to implement. With this tech anything with cellulose will convert to simple sugar to alcohol. This will include grasses and grains that are abundant in the US. it is not clean energy, mind you, but it will lead to energy independence, which is the key here. this will not happen unless subsidies are removed, however.
Mr. Oak @ Dec 27th 2007 3:40PM
All other factors being held equally, you simply get more energy per ton of crop from cane vs. maize.
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mooj: I disagree, should also be looking at yeild per acre.
If I am getting 3 tons corn per acre to 1 ton of sugar cane, then the yield of fuel per acre of corn could be higher than that of sugar, Even if it takes 1.5 tons of corn to produce the same amount of energy as 1 ton of sugar cane.
Just saying we need to know all of the facts. It works for Brazil, because their ability to produce ethanol versus their demand is not as badly askew a ours is.
We just simply cannot produce enough ethanol to replace gasoline, but we could through blending, drastically reduce the amount of oil we buy from OPEC.
Eduardo @ Dec 28th 2007 9:16AM
Here in Brasil, as mooj said, ethanol comes from sugar cane, which doesn't require too much fertilisers or a nutrient rich soil to grow, and even considering the burning, it's still efficient
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And there's no relation between debt and ethanol, national debt exploded between 1995 and 2002 when we had probably the worst president ever
From 2003 and on, things are getting better, the president is much, much more efficient, and launched fiscal control programs, since then debt is being reduced consistently
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Now, back to the energy subject, the current government started a new Biodiesel project, processing diesel from "babaçu", "mamona" and other nuts that grow on poor areas affected by the drought, therefore giving an opportunity to poor people improve their income, and so, bringing technology and wealth to these areas
From Jan. 1st and on, our diesel will contain 2 percent of these local produced biodiesel, in 2010 they could improve this percentual to 10 or 15 %, it will only depend of the production capacity
And, about the sugar cane ethanol, there is a project that produces energy from processed sugar cane rejects, they call biomass, and is yet to be implemented in large scale, as of now, it only exists in a few plants, but is promising