E85 as a performance fuel? Could be, according to General Motors
Taking a short break from wrangling the new HHR SS around the track at the Bondurant School for High Performance Driving (see above -- that's me), we got a chance to speak with some of the engineers behind the SS series of vehicles, among others. We took that opportunity to ask whether or not GM has considered using the alcohol-based E85 fuel as a high performance option -- as opposed to just marketing E85 as a "green" fuel. Perhaps not too surprisingly, the idea has been considered at General Motors. E85 happens to have a very high octane rating. The fuel burns at a comparatively low temperature, meaning that additional power can be extracted from a given amount as compared to gasoline. Turbocharged vehicles offer an excellent opportunity to tap into that additional available power, so the fact that it was left off the HHR SS probably means that we're not likely to see that angle of the corny-fuel any time soon.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
matt 7:34PM (12/18/2007)
who cares. ethanol is a terrible "replacement" for gasoline.
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Blake 7:44PM (12/18/2007)
Why?
seoultrain 7:47PM (12/18/2007)
it's only terrible for gasoline engines. An engine designed to run off E85 can run higher compressions, which means more power, a la Koenigsegg CCX.
Flex fuel engines and dedicated ethanol engines are not the same.
seoultrain 7:49PM (12/18/2007)
correction: Koenigsegg CCXR
AlexP 7:50PM (12/18/2007)
Corn-based ethanol is, can't really say the same thing about cellulose (I believe that's what it's called) ethanol and what they're doing down in Brazil.
Car Boi 7:53PM (12/18/2007)
Well at least ethanol is renewable, unlike purely oil based fuels.
adam 8:01PM (12/18/2007)
@ Car Boi
What a terrible way to look at it. Do you know what is involved in the corn based ethanol process?
Diminishing returns...
Andrew 8:15PM (12/18/2007)
More CO2 goes into the air in the production of the equivalent amount of ethanol compared to gasoline. In other words, ethanol is not a good replacement.
Blake 10:07PM (12/18/2007)
@ Adam
For corn-based ethanol, yes. The yield is terrible. But Ethanol is ethanol and can be harvested from plants with much better yields. Sugar cane is one we all know of, but not really an option for North America. Switchgrass on the other hand has a deliciously high yield, can be grown in vast quantities and renews itself even faster than corn. It's good not only in place of fossil fuels, but also in it's ability to offset the amount CO2 produced in the process of creating ethanol.
Only problem with that is, is there enough room to grow our traditional crop of corn etc., alongside enough of whatever agricultural product would be used to produce ethanol to actually significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil?
Can America grow both its food and fuel supply on the same fields without one taking away from the other?
Ted Kennedy Is My Chauffer 10:10PM (12/18/2007)
Andrew is correct, plus the emissions from ethanol are worse than they are for gasoline- especially for asthma sufferers. Furthermore, the farm industry lined enough politicians pockets to get massive subsidies for corn to become the poster vegie for ethanol, when it is one of the least efficient options for ethanol production.
Ted Kennedy Is My Chauffer 10:10PM (12/18/2007)
Andrew is correct, plus the emissions from ethanol are worse than they are for gasoline- especially for asthma sufferers. Furthermore, the farm industry lined enough politicians pockets to get massive subsidies for corn to become the poster vegie for ethanol, when it is one of the least efficient options for ethanol production.
Derek 10:15PM (12/18/2007)
Andrew, the *production* of ethanol may emit more carbon than for gasoline, but remember that combustion of ethanol is carbon-neutral, unlike gasoline.
Honestly, I don't think we will see a transportation energy monopoly in the future as we have now. A fuel source of energy (ethanol, nat gas, etc) is great for long trips where quick refueling is necessary. OTOH, purely electric cars are great for around-town driving where range is not a big concern because of efficiency in traffic and no point-of-use pollution.
Car Boi 6:46PM (12/19/2007)
And you can't run out of ethanol- unlike oil, which they believe will be all gone by 2050, within my lifetime for sure. Even if they emit the same CO2, we won't have any gasoline or diesel to burn in 40 years.
Luis 7:49PM (12/18/2007)
I was under the impression you need more ethanol during combustion to get the same performance as regular gasoline. I could be wrong, but if that's the case, I don't see the benefits as a "performance" fuel. Someone will enlighten me,I'm sure...
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seoultrain 7:53PM (12/18/2007)
What you're saying is partially true because a gallon of ethanol has considerably less energy stored than a gallon of gasoline. But as the article says, ethanol burns cooler, which means a more efficient engine. Ethanol's higher octane rating means it can also be compressed more than gasoline, which means more power. It's only a matter of further development before ethanol is a real alternative.
Derek 10:15PM (12/18/2007)
Ccooler burning may lead to high efficiency (as does higher compression), but ethanol has LESS energy per gallon than gasoline, not more as the article states. Thus, your fuel economy (in mpg) will be lower. If you express fuel economy in terms of potential energy burned, an ethanol-optimized engine should yield higher efficiency numbers though
olderty 7:54PM (12/18/2007)
Car Craft and Hot Rod have already done the tests months ago. Yes, it is starting to be used for its performance. Carb companies are already selling "green" carbs jetted for E85.
Mystery solved.
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Araemo 9:50AM (12/19/2007)
That shouldn't be too hard, carbs are still used in lots of racing applications, some of which have been running pure ethanol or high-ethanol fuels for 20 years.
Ethanol injection has been used in high-end turbocharged systems to reduce detonation for years as well, so none of this is really news, or even new.
Billy 8:23PM (12/18/2007)
I vote for propane. 95 octane, and very clean
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psarhjinian 9:30PM (12/18/2007)
Seconded, although I'd modify my vote for biopropane.