Audi may still not compete in ALMS next year
Despite confirmation from Audi that it will return to ALMS in 2008 with two R10 TDIs, apparently it's not officially official. It is well known that Audi holds extreme displeasure for ALMS regulation changes involving weight that were aimed at keeping the LMP1 vehicles like the R10 in close running with the less powerful LMP2 vehicles. Audi believes that the adjustments went too far, as the Penske Porsche RS Sypders won 8 out of 12 races in the 2007 season. For 2008, a 50 kg (110 lb) weight penalty will be imposed on the LMP2 cars for the 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race, and Audi hopes to see IMSA implement the same weight penalty before it decides it will return to ALMS. When asked, Audi would also not go into detail on whether they would accept the rumored compromise of a 25 kg (55 lb) weight penalty. Come on, IMSA. The ALMS without Audi is a lot less attractive.
[Source: Autoweek]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Bob 6:54PM (12/03/2007)
Pay close attention IMSA, unfortunately your series isn't that popular. Back off the artificial limiters and let them race.
I attended the Houston Grand Prix this year specifically to see the Audis in action and was more than annoyed to see these ham-fisted restrictions on a technically advanced car. If you want to double the crowds next season make it attractive for Peugeot to field their diesel entry as real competition. If you want to triple the crowds add a category for alternative fuels and power sources.
Reply
why not the LS2/LS7? 8:07PM (12/03/2007)
Please, you're kidding me. Without restrictions, the Diesels don't stand a chance. Even if the restrictions on gas cars were relaxed to what they were when the R8 debuted, the Diesels would never be seen again.
The minimum weight in LMP1 was raised when Diesels couldn't make the previous racing weight. Gas cars are limited to 4.0L engines (the R10 has a 5.5L engine). Gas cars are limited to 0.6 bar of Boost (the R10 has 2 Bar). Gas cars are limited to an air intake restrictor about half the area of the Diesels.
With no restrictions, we'd see no Diesels at all. Even if just the minimum weight were removed, we'd see no Diesels at all.
Bob 11:08PM (12/03/2007)
The reason they restrict the diesels is due to their very high torque (acceleration advantage) and much better fuel economy (range advantage). The minimum weight was raised to reduce the diesel advantage on both counts, not because the diesels couldn't be made light enough. IMSA's goal was to hobble the diesel enough to allow the LMP2 cars to be a challenge with their lighter weight.
So you are partially correct, with no restrictions you would see no diesels at all. Except when they were lapping you.
why not the LS2/LS7? 12:36AM (12/04/2007)
I'm talking about the minimum weight in LMP1 being raised. The ACO raised the minimum weights in LMP1 when the Diesels were brought in because the R10 couldn't make the light weights a gas car could. Gas LMP1s outhandled the Diesel ones, so the ACO raised the min weight to reduce the advantage of the gas LMP1 cars. This still shows, watching the R10 skate around on the street tracks all through 2007.
Without the restrictions the gas cars would be featherweight and making far more HP than the Diesel cars. The first R8 already was faster with a 4.0L engine and 1.33 bar of boost than the R10 is now with a 5.5L engine, 2+ bar of boost and a bigger restrictor.
In a no-restrictions race the only things holding gas cars back would be their rate of fuel consumption.
nagmashot 5:31AM (12/04/2007)
@why no LS7what ever
the LMP1 regulation allows
6.0l n/a petrol engines
5.5l diesel engines
4.0l petrol turbo engines
the minimum weight was raised to gave closed LMP1 race cars (like the Peugeot) a chance vs open top.. that the R10 was 35kg over the minmum weight was only Audi´s problem.
they gave lot of penatly the diesel cars with smaller fuel tank reducing the fuel from 90l to 81l(cutting of the consuption advantage), they are forced to drive with bio fuel in 2008(how about forcing all petrol cars to use E85?), diesel are only allowed in the LMP1 class so they can´t drive with lighter and smaler diesel engines... means Audi is not allowed to build a smaler diesel LMP2 car (perhaps with a 3.0l V8 or V6 diesel) to go directly vs Porsche and Acura..
The 24h of the Nürburgring clearly showes what small diesel can do.. a slow ass BMW 120d finishing 5th overall in 2006... if they can get full advantage of their consuption advantage they can run 4hour befor they need to stop for refulling and tire change..
why not the LS2/LS7? 11:27AM (12/04/2007)
nagmashot:
Again, no. First of all, there were no closed top cars the year the weight minimum was raised. The first closed top car (the Peugeot) came the year after. There can be whatever you want in Wikipedia but it doesn't change the actual reason the rules were changed.
And your comment the Audi was 35kg overweight is wrong. It would have been 35kg overweight if they didn't change the rules to favor it. So instead it was only 10kg overweight.
These are both academic anyway, since due to the fuel advantage (the R10 had 25% more energy it its tank the a gas car), the Audi R10 was able to stop far less often for fuel. IIRC, the R10 went 14 laps at Le Mans on a tank while other LMP1 cars went 11 or 12. There's simply no way to compete with a Diesel if it is taking 20% fewer stops than you, given that stops in Le Mans take at least a minute (if you don't change tires or driver).
I just noticed Bob saying ALMS "isn't that popular". He should go to a Grand Am or Le Mans Series race some time. Unless the fans are hiding somewhere, ALMS easily outdraws these series.
Bob 4:13PM (12/04/2007)
Reread my initial post. I stated that I attended the Houston Grand Prix this year specifically to see the Audis in action. That was an AMLS race and that should be proof enough that I have seen the series first hand.
The stands were not even half occupied during the AMLS race and there was no where near the crowd that was on hand for the Champ Car main event. From that first hand account I would say AMLS, while I greatly enjoy the series, isn't drawing fans at a level that would suggest they can start messing around with one of the few draws they have in pocket, in this case the Audi R10 diesel.
Remove the restrictions on the diesels and they will run away with the race, just as they did at Le Mans for the last two years. The Audi juggernaut may not be entertaining for the other teams, or the fans of those other teams, but from an innovation and technology standpoint it is very interesting. Eventually other teams will adopt the new technology and competition will tighten, witness Peugeot showing up at Le Mans this year. It was a very good race in LMP1.
From an engineering standpoint the dramatic improvements in range and torque would seem to indicate that a better solution has been found. Or at least a more refined solution. Given time the gasoline teams may find extra power and range with refinements to the engine, but until then let the diesels run unhindered.
why not the LS2/LS7? 4:38PM (12/04/2007)
Why would you let the Diesels run unhindered when the gas cars are restricted? It makes zero sense. Again, the R10 couldn't even beat the 2000 R8, let alone an unrestricted gas car.
By comparing the ALMS draw to a Champ Car race, you show how big a draw is on an ALMS race. Watch a Grand Am, FIA GT or LMS race on TV some time and check out the stands. Evne at Grand Am's premier race, the 24 hours of Daytona, the stands are usually completely empty. ALMS is a far bigger draw than these other series.
Peugeot has no inclination to run a full series in ALMS (they don't sell cars here), so you can't expect Peugeot to come here and make a race out of ALMS. And for other companies, it makes no sense to make a Diesel. They're useless in performance applications (the R10 engine is 50% larger and heavier than the 2000 R8 engine which made the same power) and they cannot buy a race Diesel from a company like Judd, as they don't have one to sell.
Again, it makes zero sense to artificially restrict gas cars just so Diesel cars can win, as ACO has done.
Bob 4:52PM (12/04/2007)
I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Nick 7:33PM (12/03/2007)
ALMS has pretty much lost all of my interest. The only real competition worth watching is in the GT2 class, and the rest are just kind of..."out there".
Give me a North American broadcast of the FIA GT/GT3 Championships any day instead.
Reply
Gardiner Westbound 7:48PM (12/03/2007)
As Bulldog Briscoe would say, "This stinks, it's total B.S."
Audi was punished for coming up with a winning better idea.
Reply
zamafir 7:49PM (12/03/2007)
Audi should just stop racing. they're aware of their automotive racing history, aware that they always come to an event, win, and are subsequently banned or penalized beyond competitiveness. Just stop racing audi, the other automakers like the status quo.
Reply
why not the LS2/LS7? 8:04PM (12/03/2007)
ALMS is a lot less attractive without Audi?
Those whiners can go home. Without Audi, there'd be a question as to who might win for each race.
In Le Mans Series (LMS) last year, the Diesels were turning laps over 3% faster than the other cars. This is ridiculous in an equalization-based series. Especially when there are no privateer Diesels.
If it comes down to losing Audi or losing the privateers, it's no question. Racing will go on without Audi. Without the privateers, it'd be only 6 cars out there. That's not a series.
Reply
The Penguin 8:32PM (12/03/2007)
Dude, did you watch the 2007 ALMS Season? Penske won more races overall than Audi in LMP2. So there really is a question as to who would win each race. The whole reason that Audi would leave the ALMS is because they don't want to get beat by a lower class.
tankd0g 8:49PM (12/03/2007)
Any what, may I ask, is preventing the privateers from running a racing winning diesel?
The Penguin 9:23PM (12/03/2007)
Well, one factor is money. Diesels cost a lot more than regular gas powered cars. Second the factory teams don't want to give up their advantage, so that is another reason. Charouz Racing may get the 908 in the LMS, so there may still be a privateer diesel in 2008.
why not the LS2/LS7? 12:40AM (12/04/2007)
There is no company that will sell a competitive Diesel motor to the privateers. Right now there is only Audi and Peugeot with competitive Diesel motors and they don't sell them to anyone.
When I say there is no question as to who wins, I mean under the ACO rules (heavier LMP2s, as used at Le Mans and in Le Mans Series). These are the rules Audi says they demand or else they won't race. So I guess I should be clearer about my statement. I'm saying if going to ACO rules is what it takes to keep Audi, I'd rather see Audi go.
Franz 8:05PM (12/03/2007)
Yeah, Audi always seems to get the messy end of the stick. It's almost like they're being punished for having a good car. It's typical in a lot of racing series though, to saddle the guys who are doing well with all sorts of restrictions and penalties. It makes for closer racing, but from the affected team's point of view it must suck.
Reply
HotRodzNKustoms 8:36PM (12/03/2007)
ALMS is dead as far as I'm concerned LMP1 should be faster than LMP2 and the Corvettes are just parading their superiority around in GT1 and GT2 just confuses me but has provided some fantastic racing. What would I like to see become of GT 1? Allow the Corvettes can try to chase down some LMP cars by removing all restrictions on them. I think it would just be a enjoyable race to watch the Vettes eat LMP2 cars down the straights just to be passed in the corners like in the days of Cobras vs. Porsches.
Reply
The Penguin 8:45PM (12/03/2007)
Then you must not be real concerned, because the ALMS is far from being dead. Yes, GT1 is pathetic, but it in 2009 P&M will move to LMP1 or whatever it is going to be called them, and we may see the Astons back in 2008.