The evidence: rumor had it at the LA Auto Show that customers would soon have the option of buying a hybrid Toyota Matrix and a hybrid Pontiac Vibe; the 2009 Pontiac Vibe is made at NUMMI, a GM-Toyota joint venture manufacturing plant where the Matrix is also made; Toyota's already got its hybrid synergy drive -- so is GM working on a hybrid with Toyota, or will they use Toyota's hybrid tech to work in the Vibe?The evidence is circumstantial, certainly. But it's possible. Lutz said at the recent Reuters Auto Summit that, no matter what GM thinks of hybrids, the company made a mistake letting Toyota get so far ahead with hybrids such that now the Japanese brand has become practically synonymous with hybrids and is perceived to be atop a green moral high ground. True, there's the Volt, and GM might not be doing anything with Toyota at all and it could just be a rumor. Or GM could surprise us with something completely new -- it wouldn't be the first time.
[Source: AutoblogGreen]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
raz @ Nov 27th 2007 5:16PM
I don’t get it, what about Volt? All Volt is is a PR campaign by GM. No individual who buys hybrids will buy one from GM, why? Because of perception (reality) that GM makes only dirty cars. What average green guy knows about GM is that they have stopped every single increase in MPG by buying politicians. Sure Toyota also does that but they find ways to fool the public.
Also it does not help GM when Lutz says things like “no matter what GM thinks of hybrids”. Yes we know Bob is offended by anything that may lead to cleaner air, arming terrorists with less effective weapons……you know stuff most Americans want, in any case he should keep it down. Why? Because he has not done anything productive yet for GM.
Yes he is behind Camaro and G8 (both may or may not sell) But he took money out of GM minivans to develop these cars. Notice that these two cars are directed almost entirely to people who want sporty cars, do not mind poor MPG and both are DIRECT competitors……………say what you want buy I doubt that these two cars will be as big of a sellers as a half decent minivan.
Ted Kennedy Is My Chauffer @ Nov 27th 2007 5:28PM
Exactly which GM products are "dirty"cars? Seems to me all vehicles have to meet Federal Regulations for emissions.
The G8 and Camaro do not sell to the same demographic, as one is a sedan and one is a coupe. The Camaro never took sales away from the Nova in the many years they shared a platform.
GM minivans didn't sell many units at all and did so at smaller margins.
Lutz is right in saying that Toyota has no won the perception war, as many people think they are the greenest car company on the planet, which is just not true. Toyota trucks have lower MPG ratings than GM's, as do their SUV's- save the Highlander Hybrid.
Unfortunately for GM, too many have fallen for Toyota's "we're green" PR campaign. Honda in the meantime, is by far the greenest car company and yet most people are too busy kissing Toyota butt to realize it.
VP @ Nov 27th 2007 5:31PM
What in the above writeup tells you that Volt is a PR campaign? Did the author say anywhere just because GM/Toyota may work on a hybrid together for jointly built car that Lutz would stop work on the volt?
Stop ranting please!!
Doug @ Nov 27th 2007 9:57PM
"Yes he is behind Camaro and G8 (both may or may not sell) But he took money out of GM minivans to develop these cars. Notice that these two cars are directed almost entirely to people who want sporty cars, do not mind poor MPG"
Hmmm, looks to me like the Vette gets 18/26 city/highway. Is that really that bad when you consider the Camry only gets 21/31? The Camaro and G8 will each get a version of this same engine (likely slightly detuned and with better mileage yet). If that's bad for a sports car marketed at people who "do not mind poor MPG", then Toyota better get their act together on their cars that are supposed to be marketed to families who do care... for the record, the Malibu gets 22/30... pretty much exactly what the Camry gets. Poor GM with their "dirty cars".
dskinner @ Nov 27th 2007 5:26PM
If it happens, my money is on GM using existing Toyota technology because Toyota surely will not use a GM system when they have already established themself as the hybrid leader. It would be most cost-effective to share the components, as they do on the current vehicles, and keep costs down. If Toyota does a hybrid Matrix, what about the the Corolla and Scion xD? They too use the exact same 1.8L.
gotsmart @ Nov 27th 2007 5:37PM
Just using the same 1.8L engine isn't enough to have the hybrid powertrain be used in other models. The platform has to be engineered (or have enough flexibility designed into it) that there's room for the battery pack and other parts of the hybrid drivetrain. They can't just drop it into the engine bay.
On the other hand, GM's mild hybrid and forthcoming two-mode systems are far less mechanically and physically intrusive, and might be able to be retrofit into a larger number of models without as much re-engineering of the host platform.
I'd be VERY interested in a hybrid Vibe/Matrix. The only other hybrid out there that meets our current size/price/MPG requirements is the Ford Escape Hybrid. No thanks.
Hybrid versions of the Matrix and Vibe would hit a sweet spot for those who find the Civic and Prius too small, but also find the hybrid SUVs to be too big or not efficient enough.
Bob-omb @ Nov 27th 2007 8:49PM
I hope you're wrong, and if they make it they manage to put a real hybrid system in it. I also think a Vibe/Matrix hybrid would be a perfect choice for a lot of people. Lots of usable space, plus terrific gas mileage. And I agree that the Escape Hybrid just isn't an option. It's ugly, you can't get stability control (uh, why?), and it drives considerably worse than the old model. What the hell, Ford?
gotsmart @ Nov 27th 2007 8:55PM
The GM two-mode system *is* a "real" hybrid, co-developed with BMW and Daimler-Chrysler. They've integrated the motor and generator components into the transmission, so it doesn't take up more space, and they can put it into MANY more vehicles. Very smart engineering, if you ask me, and it'll bring the cost of hybrid systems down considerably.
I don't really care which hybrid system they use.
Ford's excuse for no stability control in the Escape is that the electric motors and regenerative braking made the programming of a workable stability control system too complicated.
Clearly, Ford's engineers just aren't smart enough.
g_david @ Nov 27th 2007 5:41PM
Raz: You are an ignorant idiot. Not only was Lutz behind the two cars you mentioned, but he also had a hand in the Lamda SUV’s, the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky roadsters, the Epsilon cars, and I’m sure I could go on with a simple Google search to reference. While some of these cars are niche vehicles, they have all done wonders not only for the financial health but also the public image of GM.
Mayur @ Nov 27th 2007 5:53PM
GM has very little say on what they can do with the Vibe, Im pretty sure that if they want a hybrid vibe, it will be the same as the Matrix. As I recall, GM only has say in the design of the vehicle but rest is up to Toyota.
Guenther @ Nov 27th 2007 5:53PM
Building the Vibe and Matrix using two sets of Hybrid technology makes no sense, commercially. From an academic standpoint its interesting, because 2 basically identical cars could be compared side-by-side. I don't know enough about GM2-mode system to be able to judge its adaptability, but so far its only integrated in LARGE vehicles. Toyota's Synergy system is brilliant. Aisin Warner (who build the synergy drive for Toyota) currently supplies trans-axles for a number of other GM vehicles, so the same technology could be integrated using the same partners.
RicardoHead @ Nov 27th 2007 6:10PM
I think the Matrix/Vibe deal has Toyota in charge of the vehicle engineering, so I highly doubt you can call this "working together."
whofan @ Nov 27th 2007 6:33PM
The Matrix and Vibe get different ratings. Toyta good GM less so. Both cars are essentailly Toyotas. Toyota is all about the name "Toyota". Model to model, apples to apples I`d bet GM is the greener company. Total sales of smaller cars make Toyota greener. GM engines are very efficent for their respective sizes.
I think GM should cut the cord with Toyota and turn their outdated perception around.
Dave @ Nov 27th 2007 7:39PM
The next Matrix / Vibe will get the Xb treatment - larger engine and lower mpg.
Then Toyota and GM will be able to sell an expensive hybrid version.
FrankBank @ Nov 27th 2007 7:46PM
no way is gm using toyota old hybrid technology on anything. they have the volt eflex system all to themselves. guess what - gm stopped their minivans to build the volt!
toyota is fighting the plug in all the way and only showing a paltry prius conversion wher the enigne goes on all the time, like driving at 50 mph or accelerating. they only are using nickel. not like gm's volt which is an all new car design specifically to with full performance all electric. the volt runs for a real 40 miles on new lithium batteries before the engine comes at all.
toyota doesn't want to make a new car and wants everyone to believe that hybrid are good enough.
gotsmart @ Nov 27th 2007 9:00PM
You're talking about the Volt like it's a production vehicle. GM can make all the promises it likes with the Volt's specs, because it's still a concept vehicle. Toyota was planning on using Lithium-Ion batteries in the next Prius, but backed down because of safety concerns after all the exploding laptop battery incidents.
Talk to us in 2010 when the Volt (or a car based on the Volt) hits the road.
That said, i really like the thinking behind the Volt. It's essentially a series hybrid. With a super-clean gasoline or diesel engine, it seems to be very promising.
It's really great to see GM coming back swinging with well-designed and well-engineered products. I'm very impressed with what they've been doing in the last couple of years.
mikesright @ Nov 27th 2007 7:52PM
Guenther, 2Mode is much more adaptable to different vehicles than HSD because the electric drive is a part of the transmission itself, which is of no greater size or dimension than another conventional 6 speed. Toyota has to essentially redesign its platform to accomodate its large electric motor plus the CVT for its hybrid system. GM is working on several versions for FWD and AWD vehicles, including the '09 Vue, plus stay tuned for Zeta/Sigma and Lambda 2Modes in the future, with many more versions likely as they come along with the product strategy for the upcoming DeltaII and EpsilonII global platforms.
Mikesright @ Nov 27th 2007 7:54PM
To add to my previous comments, HSD would still likely be the method of choice since the Vibe uses a Toyota platform and powertrain (GM just directs the sheetmetal design for the car).
Solo Racer @ Nov 27th 2007 8:10PM
First, the 2009 Corolla/Matrix is getting a new 1.8 engine, not the one in the xB.
Second, they're also getting a 2.4 liter in the S and XRS models.
Third, from 2009 model year on, the Matrix will be built only at the Ontario, Canada plant.
All the specs were released when the cars were shown at SEMA.
tankd0g @ Nov 27th 2007 8:36PM
Ted: Need we remind you that the battle cry of environmentalists everywhere is "Quick, egg that hummer!"