Ha! At least I was able to pick up on your sarcasm, well done!

As far as the hybrid hype goes, I'm still not buying into it. The long term reliability of these systems still aren't proven yet. Manufacturers need to put their short-term R&D dollars into diesel technology, make them cleaner, faster, and more efficient. Long term, they need to be putting their money into all electric cars.

I'm sure some people are still going to defend Honda on this. The General puts out a hybrid with realistic mileage numbers and everyone makes fun of them. At least they didn't lie to you to get you to spend $28K on a Civic.

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So getting rid of the unions would help Mr. True to achieve 50 mpg in his Honda Civic Hybrid.

Brilliant.

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Oh. Sarcasm. Brilliant.

;)

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yup.

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Diesel sucks just as well. Installed in the same car a diesel and a gasoline engine of similar hp rating produce pretty much the same performance and fuel consumption (and by fuel consumption I mean the mass of the fuel burned, not the volume).

You can see for yourself, compare BMW 530i with BMW 535d and you'll see that they have pretty much the same power and performance, together with very similar fuel consumption (measured in kg).

While diesel engines can be more efficient than gasoline engines (the reason why you won't see industrial gasoline engines), the ones installed in passenger cars are not much more efficient than gasoline engines, mostly because of weight and dimensions restrictions. The way they are now, diesel engines installed in passenger cars do not improve fuel economy when they deliver the same performance as gasoline engines.

Instead of building heavier cars using diesel or hybrid engines engineers should spend the money on lowering the weight of vehicle and improving the cycle of gasoline engine (HCCI).

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It is apparent that you have no idea what you are talking about and have never driven a modern diesel powered car. Because of the increased compression ratio, Diesel engines have a natural efficiency advantage. I drive a 2002 Jetta TDI and regularly get over 45mpg and even though it does have less power on paper it is comparably fast to my brothers 4cyl gasoline car that has about 150hp when comparing 0-80mph. His car has a hard time breaking 30mpg on the highway. And by the way, Diesel weighs 6.95 lbs per gallon and Gasoline weighs about 6.2 lbs per gallon. That is a difference of about 10% and diesels are usually 25% to 30% more efficient.

One more thing, if you have been following the Le Mans series you will know that the Audi and Peugeot diesels race cars are easily faster than their gasoline competitors all while using less fuel.

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I'm sick of this diesel crap. Diesel nuts are always shoing Euro diesel numbers, even though they don't correspond to American MPG measurements. If you went to Europe, you'd know that petrol-electric models produce better mileage than their diesel counterparts. The UK Civic Hybrid averages higher mileage over the diesel variants. The Hybrid costs more than the base diesel Civic, but less than most of the diesel Civic trim levels.

I see someone pointing out that the Escape Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in CR testing. The only non-hybrid SUV close to that was the Forester at 23. The Civic Hybrid averaged 37 in CR testing. No other car was close except the Yaris and the Fit, with 34 each. The Hybrid owner is some wannabe jazz player no one has heard of, trying to find attention, and trying to make money (since he has no real job) off a suit as loony as the $54 million pants case in DC. The man's an idiot who clearly has a problem driving properly.

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you know, hybrids aren't the be-all end-all in maximizing efficiency in cars. That said, neither is diesel. As for the "proof" that you guys put forward, there is so much info out there that you can prove any point you want to.

Each system has their strengths and weaknesses. Assuming equal level of technology (yeah, yeah, it's apples and oranges), it basically comes down to how much the hybrid can use its regenerative breaking/battery power. A hybrid will get killed by diesel on highway driving, since it will pretty much be using its gas engine the whole time. A diesel loses to hybrids in the city, since it loses 100% of the energy produced when it brakes, while hybrids recover some of that energy. Plus, hybrids can turn off their engine at idle.

So until a hybrid diesel comes along, it's up to the manufacturers to develop both technologies, and for customers to know which technology fits their needs.

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Andy, regardless of what European or American estimates say, I get marvelous fuel economy with my diesels. I drive on the highway, and I drive fast. In 85 mph highway driving, my E320 CDI gets 34 mpg and my Jetta TDI gets 44 mpg. This is calculated from the odometer and between fillups, not by the trip computer. In contrast, my Volvo S70 gets about 24 mpg under the same circumstances.

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"I think that this is why automakers are moving to diesel. "

Who is?

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@ snakesausage
What you are describing is typical incorrect comparison using different cars, with different specs and different drivers.

In the past it was more difficult to compare diesels with gasoline engines because at the same displacement diesels were much less powerful and obviously got better fuel economy. Now, when everybody in Europe buys the hype of power per displacement, diesels have the same power with gasoline engines at the same displacement and comparisons are easier.

You should clearly understand what a fair comparison means: it should be the same car, it should reach the same max speed and have the same acceleration. ONLY in such conditions you can compare the fuel economy. I'll give one example, but many such examples can be found:

BMW 530i: 271PS, 0-100km/h in 6.3sec, top speed 250km/h, fuel consumption 10.9/5.8/7.7 l/100km urban/extra-urban/combined, combined consumption in kg: 5.67kg of gasoline for 100km, CO2 Emissions 182 g/km

BMW 535d: 285PS, 0-100km/h in 6.4sec, top speed 250km/h, fuel consumption 9.2/5.4/6.8 l/100km urban/extra-urban/combined, combined consumption in kg: 5.67kg of diesel fuel for 100km, CO2 Emissions 182 g/km

What this shows is that for identical requirements and performance both diesel and gasoline engines consume just as much.

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BMW likes to socially engineer cars. They take a common engine design (same displacement, compression ratio) and try to do different things. (different fuel systems, different turbocharger arrangement, etc.)
Look at the 5-series. The cars are limited to 250kph(gentleman's agreement). The 3.0 Inline6 diesel is offered in three variants.
525d-(194hp@3750 295ft-lbs@1300 146mph drag limited-auto)
530d-(232hp@4000 369ft-lbs@1750 154mph drag limited-auto)
535d-(282hp@4400 428ft-lbs@1750 155mph gov-auto, auto only)
even the base one cleans the 3.0 N53's clock (~25% greater peak) in terms of torque.
The 535 makes twice the power@1750rpm than the 530i. Totally different driving style, considering that the gas engine can rev to 7000 and the diesel only 5000rpm.

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Dondonel,

Your numbers show that the diesel is more efficient. What is your point?

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TEST DRIVE A HONDA ACCORD 05 HYBRID TOP SPEED OVER 150MPH.I SHOULD KNOW!!!!!1

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No doubt he got an automatic as well, and drives it with a heavy foot to boot (no pun intended) - and he is probably still expecting the same mileage.

It seems a lot of people think hybrids are some magic tool... but they're not. If you want to be frugal with your gas spending, then you need to be frugal on the gas and drive smartly in a number of other ways.

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