When talking about the (hopefully coming in 2010)
Chevy Volt, Bob Lutz repeatedly said he was waiting on battery makers to provide GM with battery packs that were up to the challenge, seeing as the show car relies on technology
that doesn't exist. GM isn't the only maker with battery issues -- Toyota has pushed back the introduction of lithium ion batteries in the next generation Prius, saying that they're not just not ready to be put in cars because of safety issues. There are independent companies that are installing li-ion battery packs into cars and getting stunning results. Toyota, though, in light of corporate liabilities and its recall record of late, simply can't afford to risk what would be a huge black eye if the next Prius suffered from a hasty misstep.
[Source: Winding Road]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
johdaxx 6:21PM (5/31/2007)
Yeah - you figure you don't want your car looking like one of the exploding laptops of this last year:
http://www.engadget.com/search/?q=exploding+laptop
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Tim Plaehn 6:30PM (5/31/2007)
GM bashers take note. GM will get it right before they release the car.
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ViktorVaughan 7:47PM (5/31/2007)
Who said anything about bashing either manufacturer? Toyota made it to market much faster and have raked in the dough because of it--GM failed to make such an opportunity for themselves.
Barney 3:04AM (6/02/2007)
"M will get it right before they release the car."
Long after everyone else had got it right.
Tool 6:36PM (5/31/2007)
Nailing the next-gen battery technology is critical to the hybrid "movement".
Like many others, I want to see the best and latest technology as soon as possible, but the automakers must get it right the first time.
Otherwise, this terrific approach to improving MPG and reducing GHG will go down as a failure.
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Tim UF 7:02PM (5/31/2007)
I'm waiting for a hybrid diesel system or a hybrid miller cycle system. Why there arent more combining the more efficient fuel cycles? i think its in the hands of the marketing side. Bean Counters get in the way of real engineering, IMHO
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jimsum 4:13PM (6/08/2007)
Tim, your wait is over. The Prius has always used a Miller (Atkinson) cycle engine. Well, almost Miller cycle; the Prius doesn't need a supercharger because it has an electric motor when it needs torque. The Atkinson cycle engine is one of the reasons the Prius gets good highway mileage in addition to the good city mileage.
starlightmica 7:08PM (5/31/2007)
I haven't heard of major advances in Li-ion cell life, so this makes sense. The cells' ability to hold a full charge gradually degrades with time and thus likely wouldn't last the 8yr/100k mi warranty currently in place.
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Mattlach 7:52PM (5/31/2007)
Lithium-ion batteries can easily rupture, ignite, or explode when exposed to high temperatures. Short-circuiting a Li-ion battery can cause it to ignite or explode.
In other words, if either high heat or short circuits can cause the battery to explode (not just like in the laptop battery fires, but real severe explosions) I wouldn't want one in my car if I ever were to be in an accident.
Check out what happens to even a small Li-Ion battery if overcharged/overheated/short circuited:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS2hGoJVmlA
Then there is the whole issue of deep discharge, where if an Li-Ion battery is discharged too much it can take up to 7 times longer than usual to recharge.
Li-ion batteries also degrade as a function of time, regardless of whether they are used to much, losing approximately 20% capacity per year. This is not really feasible in cars that are kept for more than 10 years.
Li-Ion batteries are great. Just not ready for the automotive world yet. The question is how much of this can be improved by design, and how much is inate to the Li-Ion reactions.
I too would like to see diesel-hybrids or miller cycle hybrids, but manufacturers are shying away from these as diesel, miller and hybrid systems already cost a premium to put in a car. Adding two of these to the same vehicle would probably result in more of a price premium than most people would be willing to pay, and definitely more than they would save in gas over the lifespan of the car.
(Heck, regular hybrids already cost more than you save in gas over the lifespan of the car)
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ReadMoreSpeakLess 11:01PM (5/31/2007)
Please see this video demonstration of a conventional lithium and a safe lithium battery. http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Peter 8:25PM (5/31/2007)
A better battery doesn't really change mileage. So Toyota may as well stay with more durable Nimh.
The bigger battery is useful plugin hybrids, but you really need a leap in battery technology for this to happen.
Miller cycle? The Prius uses Atkinson which is Miller minus the supercharger which the electric engine compensates for.
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JGN 8:50PM (5/31/2007)
Toyota really babies the Prius, it has been around for an appreciable amount of time now and seem to be bulletproof in the long run. I suppose it protects their investment in the technology, but it also eases my mind when I consider buying one. Toyota are putting some of their best work into the Prius.
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JGN 9:40PM (5/31/2007)
Man, that was a grammatical mess, hope readers caught the drift.
Don 9:40PM (5/31/2007)
Good point...Toyota can't afford to mess with its "green" reputation. Any Li-ion fires and it would be shot to hell.
JGN 10:00PM (5/31/2007)
Toyota understood the risk of introducing a new technology, the last thing they want associated with their Hybrid Synergy Drives is spotty reliability. Toyota will introduce Li-ion batteries when they are consumer ready. Li-ion tech works fine in the cell phones we use. I figure it's a lot more complicated when applied to vehicles. I spotted an older Prius on the freeway today and realized that Toyota must have got the technology in their original hybrids right, because I've read or heard nothing about battery failure, so far. The warranties last a long time on hybrid tech anyway. The cautious approach is working well for them here. I just hope they can meet the early 90+ mpg claims they'd leaked.
Don 2:44PM (6/01/2007)
If the 90 mpg claims are true, you can bet they'll double sales of the Prius.
I haven't heard of any troubles with the NiMH batteries either...as far as I can tell, the current Prius is trouble free.
Kent Beuchert 8:49AM (6/01/2007)
Bob Lutz was a lot more optimisitic than the condensed
acount of his VOLT remarks imply. He also said that
the chance of a battery not beinf ready was less than 10%. So Bob's not expecting a lack of battery power. More recently he made remarks that lead me to strongly believe that the VOLT will get built, and in large quantities, regardless of whether a battery meets every one of GM's specs. The main missing spec is cost for batteries like the Altair, which physically will almost certainly exceed all of GM's specs with the advent of the Gen II later this year. Even if Altair meets their goal of $500/kWhr battery costs within the next 3 years, they wil be around $2500 higher than spec. It may come down to whether Toyota has a plug-in of comparable value and technology by then AND has a low cost battery. GM's
horrendous health care costs for their UAW pirates would add to the difficulty of competing on price. It would be impossible - they would suffer a $4000 disadvantage on a mid $20's vehicle - way too big a loss.
In that case they would not b able to sell very many VOLTs and would have to wait for a low cost battery for themselves.
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mike7 4:58PM (6/01/2007)
- You know I'm getting tired of this "UAW" problem. Who was it that was supposed to RESERVE sufficient funds for health care costs? MANAGEMENT. But, management chose to under-reserve, and skim from the funds. Now, it's the UAW's problem.
Travis Rassat 10:33AM (6/01/2007)
While this is not necessarily the best news for the next generation of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive, I do hope they continue applying the current generation to existing cars. I haven't heard much about anything to this effect. I would love to see the Tacoma, Yaris, Corolla and even the Scion cars available with the current HSD system. It's not perfect, but it's still progress and would lay the groundwork when the Lithium Ion generation is ready.
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Woodenduck 10:07PM (6/01/2007)
Toyota's self-proclaimed high mileage Prius is now outmoded, no matter what the battery tech available to the car industry is. Toyota is not telling us that their single-mode hybrid only helps mileage in city driving. The new and better dual-mode hybrid drive which has been developed by BMW GM and DaimlerChrysler, boosts mileage both in the city and on the interstate. This better system will be in production in both GM and Chrysler vehicles in 2007.
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