Safety group sues NHTSA in Explorer debacle
There's still fallout landing from the Firestone-tire-crashing-Explorer episode. Maryland-based Quality Control Systems Corporation has sued NHTSA in an attempt to gain access to any reports Ford made to the agency regarding injuries and deaths from tire-related incidents. This latest action, under the Freedom Of Information Act, has been brought on by NHTSA's refusal to share any data it's collected about Explorer crashes. NHTSA has been waffling about the level of detail it will release. A federal judge had ordered the agency to revamp a proposed rule allowing a high level of secrecy. The order was appealed by the Rubber Manufacturers Association, we're assuming in the interest of self preservation, and NHTSA is sitting on its hands until that appeal is resolved. If something was amiss with the tires, recommended inflation pressure, or just plain bad driving, the public deserves transparency. NHTSA contends that deciding what level of information to release on a case-by-case basis would be overwhelming – as well as possibly revealing sensitive corporate information. A blanket policy favoring informing the public, rather than protecting companies that make faulty products would be a step in the right direction. Instead, we're going to still be in the dark while time is wasted clogging up the legal system and paying lawyers to duke it out. Now, that's what we call progress.
[Source: Detriot Free Press]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Mike 7:39AM (4/02/2007)
"If something was amiss with the tires, recommended inflation pressure, or just plain bad driving, the public deserves transparency"
A tire blowout doesn't cause a car to roll. Any of the more serious accidents were due to just plain bad driving.
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felipe 8:40AM (4/02/2007)
mike-
what do you think happens when your front tire blows out doing 65 mph on the freeway? coast to the side?
in a car its bad enough, but on a tire thats side wall is 5+ inches and a vehicle with that center of gravity your screwed.
and if it happened someone i love because the company made poor tires, then they are screwed.
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Snix 9:10AM (4/02/2007)
This was never a Firestone problem. I have a Chevy Silverado with Firestone Wilderness AT tires (same tread pattern,even) that had 60k miles on them before I replaced them. I never had a problem, and kept the tires at 35psi, what Chevy recommended.
The problem was Ford's engineering department that had mechanics lowering the air pressure to make a smoother ride. That and Jacques Nasser making Firestone be the fall guy. I was so glad to see that jerk get the boot from Ford.
No, a tire blowout generally should not cause a vehicle to roll, but when you compound this with a high center of gravity vehicle and inexperienced/unkowing panicky drivers, youre asking for disaster.
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regguy 8:43AM (4/02/2007)
Dan, this is a red herring. I suspect your unfamiliarity with this issue has influenced your conclusions that bad companies are hiding information from the public. That is not accurate and this is not solely a Ford-Firestone issue.
The TREAD Act now requires enormous amounts of data to be sent quarterly by OEMs to NHTSA. The data includes unproven allegations, ridiculous lawsuits including from those outside the USA, warranty data for repairs, certain field reports with rep speculation, etc. The group suing is a front for the ambulance chasers....go their website and see. The ambulance chasers and many others (Consumer Union, JD Powers, NY Times, etc.) would love to see all the business data that the NHTSA sees, of course so they can "protect the public." Do you think competitors would like to see others' data? Do you think the RMA wants to blame all tire failures on the OEM?
NHTSA has the data, and it gets crunched looking for trends to get more details etc. When NHTSA needs more details, they get them....when NHTSA sees an issue that needs to be addressed, they get action.
The ambulance chasers want easier "fishing expeditions" and NHTSA knows it. If the courts rule that all data must be turned over, the OEMs will begin to collect it in a manner that makes it useless to NHTSA and everyone else.
Clearly, OEMs are not perfect, and a flat tire should not precipitate a rollover, but NHTSA gets the data...the ambulance chasers shouldn't.
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carnut 8:46AM (4/02/2007)
"what do you think happens when your front tire blows out doing 65 mph on the freeway? coast to the side?"
Car & Driver (IIRC) tested this and guess what? The Explorer behaved no differently than any other vehicle when the the tire blew.
And guess what? Many of the deaths were from unbelted drivers/passengers and people riding in the CARGO AREA! How they got $ is beyond me.
Having owned an Explorer (2000), it was a fine driving vehicle. Not as nimble as a car, but when you RESPECTED it's DIFFERENCES, it was a good vehicle. My only gripes were: 1) Quality, 2) I'm more of a sporty car guy.
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Shawn 9:28AM (4/02/2007)
Snix, this issue has been tested to death by just about every safety group and automotive magazine. The problem is driver panic and over-steer when the tire blew. That will flip a truck any time, and I don't think cars will do too well either.
Regardless of tire pressure, there is no situation with any modern vehicle for which a blown tire can flip a car without driver error.
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olddavid 9:42AM (4/02/2007)
When this issue was at the forefront, I asked my dear wife if she was aware of the different center of gravity when driving our old BroncoII. I love this woman, she has a Master's degree and is no one's fool, and yet she was vaguely aware that it's no sports car and nothing else. I have to agree with Autoweek that the solution lies in greater driver education. Last summer we took a vacation to Arizona and she took the Bondurant course, and now is a veritable hotshoe at PIR. SUV's, when driven within their capabilities, are no more dangerous than anything else at 60 mph.
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Rob 9:43AM (4/02/2007)
I drove a 98' Ford Explorer that I put over 220,000 miles on and had a few blowouts (I-94 sucks). Never during a blowout did I feel that the truck seemed like it was going to roll even at 80MPH. I did'nt exactly baby the damn thing, but I did'nt drive like an idiot either. When your driving something that weighs 5500lbs +, you don't drive like your in a sports car and you should'nt expect it to behave so during a blowout situation. In my personal opinion I think most, if not all, of the rollover's in the Ford Firestone Explorer incidents were due to poor driving or lack of driving experience.
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Mike 9:59AM (4/02/2007)
92 Explorer, 150000k, drove the original Firestones until you could see the air in them. No rollovers, no blowouts, still driving it.
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AZMike 10:10AM (4/02/2007)
the first problem was with the tires. the Firestone Wilderness tires were designed to run at 35PSI, but for the interests of a better ride, Ford recommended 29PSI. that, of course, was assuming that any of the owners ever checked the air pressure.
the second issue was with the tread pattern itself. the tread was a very aggressive design which helped to increase the heat buildup, which was also exacerbated by the low tire pressure. it is interesting that Ford chose to use this aggressive tread, even on 2WD Explorers. all other manufacturers use a totally different (and less aggressive tread) on their 2WD versions. it would have not only been quieter and smoother riding, but heat buildup would have dramatically decreased.
I think a lot of the blame should lie in the hands of the owners. I personally witnessed a horrible accident in the California desert on I-10 a few years ago. a Toyota Forerunner headed in the opposite direction had apparently blown a rear tire, and was literally sailing thru the air (the Forerunner, not the tire), and flew over a fence on the side of the highway. it was definitely airborne; it never touched the fence.
I (and a lot of other folks) stopped to help. everyone was wearing seat belts in the Forerunner, and other than being upside down, were fine.
what was interesting was the fact that the Forerunner had a full set of Wilderness tires, and BOTH rear tires had separated, and blown out.
for those who have ever had a tire separate, you know this is a very long and noisy process. if the tire is on the front, it will pull in one direction very badly; no matter what position the tire is, it is incredibly noisy, and causes excessive vibration.
logic would say to stop and have the problem checked, but logic gets thrown out the window with the average driver. if the tire is holding air, it's fine. if it's noisy, just turn up the radio volume.
tires are one of the cheapest things manufacturers put on a vehicle, whether domestic or imported. the auto manufacturers have contracts with the tire manufacturers, and believe it or not, the average price the auto manufacturers pay for a set of tires, according to Automotive News, is about $100.
AZMike
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rip 10:24AM (4/02/2007)
felipe:
I've gotten a flat tire at 75mph. All that happened was a slight noise of the tire blowing out and slight pulling of the car to one side. By slight I mean I wasn't sure if something was wrong or if I just hit a poorly graded patch of road. I drove for at least 1 mile on the flat before deciding to pull over.
Once I figured it was a flat, I turned on my hazards, slowed down, and pulled over to the shoulder. BFD.
Guess what, the car didn't roll over.
I read an article in Car and Driver years ago where a tire blew out during a road test. They were doing about 150mph. Guess what, that car didn't roll either.
Anyone that rolls a vehicle because of a flat tire while driving at normal speeds doesn't know how to drive.
It's very simple. If you get a flat tire, you turn on your hazards, slow down mostly through coasting (don't slam on the brakes, use them lightly), and pull over. Then put on the spare. Or call AAA and have them do it. Or, as an old girlfriend did, call me and have me do it ;)
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John P. 11:06AM (4/02/2007)
You know something, it's good to read that so many people here actually get it about this issue. I'm genuinely impressed.
One other note that must be mentioned, some of this story can also be attributed to the witch hunt the media started on the SUV many years ago.
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Ti 11:57AM (4/02/2007)
Sorry Explorer fans but I have been in so many freeway back-ups that it has become a joke to anticipate the cause as we finally inch by the scene and eight times out of ten we see another flipped Explorer.
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That One Person 12:15PM (4/02/2007)
#5 Snix...I believe it was also proven that the tires had problems. Not all of them but a good majority. My dad had Wilderness ATs on his Ranger but they never blew out. But the guy down the street had a 99 Explorer with them and while he was doing 40 down one of the main roads around here, his tire blew out. The tires were brand new, too.
Anyways, I bet 99% of those accidents were caused by driver error. And having actually been in a full size Ford van when a tire blew, I dont understand why people react the way they do. It wasnt scary. But it was a pain in the ass trying to get over onto the shoulder...
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Shawn 1:06PM (4/02/2007)
Ti, I'm not an Explorer fan at all. I don't even like SUVs, but the fact still remain that no one has been able to duplicate a flip over with a blown tire without the driver doing something completely stupid.
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Manolo 2:06PM (4/02/2007)
I vaguely remember the three "80" rule that was a common denominator in many of the accidents:
- Over 80 degrees ambient temp.
- Over 80 MPH
- At 80% or less of the mfr recommended pressure, which in this case would be 23 psi!!!!
Anyone that knows the basics on cars and tires would know this will kill ANY tire... not just Firestones...
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That One Person 4:06PM (4/02/2007)
#16...now does that rule require running at those speeds over a long period of time or is it instataneous? Because I did a 45 minute run on the freeway with my Escort wagon loaded with five people doing 75 mph and the driver side rear tire had 15psi in the tire...which required 32psi (I didnt know it at the time). The tire didnt shread or explode. I actually had it inspected and it was fine. I ended up having it on my car for another 20k miles.
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Cameron 12:16AM (4/03/2007)
The first poster, "Mike", is a complete moron. I was in a rollover wreck 2 weeks ago, in a 94 Explorer, where my tread separated. I was going about 80 on the Turnpike and flipped several times. There was absolutely NO way to avoid the rollovers or maintain any sort of control of the car. I am lucky to be alive. I would like to see how "Mike" would hold up.
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