Ford responds to flaming Super Duty video
Our good buddy Mike Levine at Pickuptruck.com did the legwork and got in touch with Ford safety spokesperson Dan Jarvis to talk about the video we showed you yesterday that features a 2008 Ford Super Duty pickup spewing flames from its tailpipes. Jarvis confirmed that the truck in the video is one of the three pickups Ford described last week when it issued a recall to address the problem. While not entirely certain which of the trucks it is, Jarvis said it's one of the two trucks that was purchased in Canada, probably the one that was started in extremely cold temperatures (appx. minus 20 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit) and not given sufficient time to warm up before being driven. That situation could make short work of any engine, and the resultant blown bearing seal in the turbo that leaked combustible fluid into the exhaust system should not necessarily be considered a defective part.Clearly, Ford is very concerned about the reputation of its new 6.4L Power Stroke, which is evident by how quickly it took action with a recall to address three isolated incidents that resulted in the same outcome, i.e. flaming tailpipes. The real issue in each case appears to be this newfangled Diesel Particulate Filter, versions of which are used not only by the Ford Super Duty, but also the Heavy Duty GMT900 and Dodge Ram pickups. Considering that all three heavy duty pickups use a process of regeneration to burn away accumulated particulates in their respective DPFs, the potential for flaming tailpipes exists in all three trucks if an unmetered amount of flammable liquid gets in there somehow. We're certainly not cutting Ford any slack here, but considering it likely sells more heavy duty trucks equipped with diesels than the other two automakers, statistically speaking this was bound to happen to a Ford first. Only time will tell if we're right and other diesel-equipped late-model pickups start getting hot under the collar.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
jb 10:20AM (3/28/2007)
Effing KOOL!
More to the point, how do I get my truck to DO that!!
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Kowell 10:31AM (3/28/2007)
"That situation could make short work of any engine"
Please.... everybody here start their car in "extreme cold" (-20 to -40degrees farenheit with wind) and start off right away and they work just fine.... They run noisy for 3-4 minutes but the moment they warm up they're fine.
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Rastus 11:48AM (3/28/2007)
Junk!!!
Go on, you dyed-in-the-wool American rednecks, please ...PLEASE take out a 60 month loan on this flaming POS!!!
;)
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Igor Holas 10:46AM (3/28/2007)
#2 - not a brand new NOT BROKEN IN Diesel - You might think you know it all and you might know more about diesels that I do, but I do know that the break in period of any diesel is crucial - since the engine is under a lot of pressure (d'oh), but the seals are not set in properly yet.
One of the KEY predictors of longetivity of diesels is proper break in period - babying it when cold and then driving it hard afterwards.
Igor
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C. McFeeny 10:47AM (3/28/2007)
*COUGH* read the article *COUGH* Talking about diesel engines *COUGH* not gasoline *COUGH* read the article *COUGH*
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DriftPunch 11:00AM (3/28/2007)
Could someone explain to me how a damaged seal in the turbo is leaking fuel into the exhaust. One side of the turbo is air only, and the other side should contain hellishly hot exhaust gasses.
I was under the impression that the problem is with a damaged fuel injector style device that warms the particulate filter.
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ItGuy 11:29AM (3/28/2007)
Wind speed has 0 effect on engines. Wind chill only affects living things, which an engine is not.
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jordan 11:41AM (3/28/2007)
Re: ItGuy
I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "0 effect on engines," because technically I would consider that to be a false statement. If a engine is trying to heat up, it's temperature is higher than that around it (atmosphere). Wind will move that air, causing newer, cooler air to take its place and the motor will then expel more of the heat into that volume of air, which will then move and be replaced by other, cooler air. Rinse, repeat.
In short, it's just acting like any CPU heatsink w/fan would. In this case, since the heat is being removed, it takes longer for it to warm up.
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hupp1928 7:09PM (3/28/2007)
The malfunctioning injector is a lot more probable. The compressor side of any turbo (on anything but some of the oldest turbo systems) only sees “dry” air. The fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber and therefore never is seen by the compressor. Additionally, if gasses where to leak past the sealed compressor side of the turbo they would find it difficult to overcome the pressure difference between the turbine and compressor sides of the turbo. For a turbo to work there must be greater pressure on the exhaust turbine. If the intake manifold had more pressure then the exhaust manifold, the turbo would start to slow down drastically or even spin backwards (I know spinning a turbo backwards would be nearly impossible, it is just used as an example). That is the purpose of blow-off valves, to prevent high intake manifold pressures from “de-spooling” the turbo on shifts and throttle lifts. Having this pressure difference would make any gasses that did somehow blow by a seal, navigate the oil gallery which is open to the crankcase, and pass by the other seal be exhaust gasses escaping into the intake. Having all of these obstacles to overcome, the malfunctioning “9th injector” sounds a lot more probable to me.
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superjeff 11:48AM (3/28/2007)
DriftPunch,
Maybe lubricant in the turbo is the combustible fluid, not fuel?? I don't know. Just a guess.
ItGuy,
Take a course in Heat Transfer. Wind speed has a lot to do with the rate of heat transfer out of a system, be it a living thing or a big hunk of metal that is attempting to generate enough heat to get up to its operating temperature.
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superjeff 11:50AM (3/28/2007)
Well said Jordan. You beat me to it and did it much more politely. :)
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rgseidl 11:56AM (3/28/2007)
@DriftPunch: a broken seal on the turbine side of a turbo would admit oil rather than fuel into the exhaust stream.
If the leak is minor, the DPF will have to filter out more particulate matter, forcing earlier (i.e. more frequent) regeneration, reducing its longevity. Meanwhile, the turbo may also suffer (possibly catastrophic) damage.
If the leak is large enough, the additional heat from its combustion can trigger uncontrolled regeneration and thermal destruction of the DPF, after which time the unintended afterburner effect will cause flames to shoot out of the tailpipe. Of course, a vehicle with a broken DPF and turbo seal will no longer meet emissions standards.
Operating any type of engine - but especially a turbocharged diesel engine - in extremely cold weather requires careful driving during the cold start period. This applies doubly to brand-new engines, a fact that dealers in regions prone to cold ought to educate their customers about.
@ItGuy: the airflow in the engine compartment and especially, across the underbody where the DPF is does depend on ambient wind strength and direction. In extreme cases, that could have an impact on system temperatures, especially during the cold start period.
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Mattlach 12:45PM (3/28/2007)
I was under the impression that letting engines warm up under idle was a widely believed myth and that doing so does more harm than good...
Everyone I have talked to who actually knows engines says the best thing to do with a cold engine is drive it lightly until it warms up. Letting it idle until it warms up just causes more wear...
Is this incorrect?
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RP 1:09PM (3/28/2007)
Any tips on how I should warm up my electric car?
P.S. Great video! I want afterburners for my car!
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Guenther 1:31PM (3/28/2007)
Engines do not need idleing until warm, no matter how cold it is. They do need a short period for sludgy oil to start moving. Wind chill has ZERO effect on cold start, it does however impact warm-up. The turbo shouldn't need warm-up, only enough time for the 15W40 Rotella to begin flowing. Not running FULL load on a cold engine is obvious to anyone, blatantly so to Canadians.
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DPC car videos 3:21PM (3/28/2007)
There is absolutely no excuse for this to happen under any condition. This is not the first diesel engine stated under these conditions, it seems to be running super lean in the cold weather and the ECU is to dumb to add more fuel to make things safe.
http://www.dpccars.com
DPCcars
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Guenther 3:34PM (3/28/2007)
DPC- if you lean a diesel out too much it shuts off. Perfectly safely. Diesels run way lean all the time. 75% stoic at the most. Has nothing to do with the engine controller. These are hardware failures. Poor oil control/bad seals in the turbo and injectors piddling fuel into the exhaust phase. Potentially, oil viscosity at extreme low temps could be the culprit in blowing out the bearing seal in turbo.
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Jim 3:37PM (3/28/2007)
Ford may have issued the recall quickly, but if their solution is to "upgrade" the ECU software so that it reduces power, that's not much of a solution. How about repairing the actual problem, not fuding the ECU software to get around it? If I had just dropped ~$50k on a new truck only to have the dealer de-power it because the injectors and/or turbo are crap, I'd be pretty pissed.
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Don 4:06PM (3/28/2007)
Actually, "Guenther", turbodiesels DO need a warm up period in temperatures like that.
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ttruck 5:05PM (3/28/2007)
Jim I totally agree with you, If I was to spend a huge chunk of money on a vehicle, I would expect the manufacturer to make things right without sacrificing the powers I was told the truck had when I bought it. Since a large majority use their 3/4 and 1 tons to pull and haul equipment for work, days or weeks at the dealership costs money, and that tends to piss people off. Ford needs to fox this problem correctly, now that would be a BOLD MOVE!
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