Fleets inflating domestic minivan sales numbers
In recent years, we know very few people with kids who have opted to buy domestic minivans as the primary family hauler. More often than not, we hear the Odyssey and Sienna names put forth, followed by an assortment of SUVs, domestic and otherwise. Some people have undoubtedly abandoned a domestic brand for one of the Japanese big guns. This isn't surprising, since the Odyssey and Sienna do the job very well.
Now comes word in Automotive News that fleet sales are keeping up the illusion that the domestics' position in this segment is merely calamitous and not utterly cataclysmic. Rick Kranz points out that from January through October '06, fleets accounted for 65-percent of Ford Freestar sales, 62-percent of Chevy Uplander sales, and over 40-percent of the DCX vans. And what of the Odyssey? Fleets account for 1 percent of sales. No wonder Ford and GM are all about the crossover nowadays. Their minivans are the stars in a Weekend at Bernies sequel in which they're playing the part of Bernie.
Ford's bailing out and pulling the ripcord labeled "FAIRLANE," while GM prepares its trio of new large crossovers -- the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave -- with hopes for 130,000 in combined sales, according to North American sales veep Mark LaNeve. Chrysler, which as the inventor of the minivan has a lot of prestige on the line, will stay in the fight and unveil its fully redesigned vans at the Detroit show next week.
The overall market for minivans has been shrinking for several years in a row, and many of the automakers point to that as justification for looking to crossovers. We doubt that Honda and Toyota execs are fretting, however, since the (real) people buying minivans are apparently choosing theirs. Chrysler knows what it's doing here, so we hope to see something good next week. The market may be shrinking, but there is still a market for the things. It just takes a high-quality product to compete.
[Source: Automotive News - Sub. Req.]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
artie43 7:31AM (1/02/2007)
Well the last van I had was an 02 Grand Caravan. When I sold it with 80K miles, it was worth half the value that a comparabley equipped and priced Odyssey was selling for. After this experience, I am no longer a buyer for Detroit iron. Sad to say but I have bought minivans from Ford and DCX for many years. Total of 5 since 89. I don't know what the problem is, but taking that kind of a financial hit on resale value is just ridiculous. Shame on DCX and Ford for building such terrible resale into their products. No wonder Ford abandoned the van market. They have been losing credibility with the general public. DCX will be next if my experience is any indicator. Detroit just doesn't get it. And they probably never will!
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Edmond Dantes 7:43AM (1/02/2007)
I had to rent a chevy Uplander for over a month and took it cross country. Our van came with only 200 miles so it was brand new. The check brake light constantly went of and on for no reason. The van drove fine on the highway and had decent power. The backseat DC plug is very inaccesible. Overall, it's an ok rental, but I can't see ever wanting to own this compared to the competition.
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Dan 9:24AM (1/02/2007)
Good luck to DCX - just had some ride time in a new Honda Odyssey. Boy, did they ever put a lot of thought into that thing! The ergonomics are quite good, the materials and fit and finish are excellent - didn't feel cheap at all. Let's see if the domestics can get on the stick, they've got some issues that Honda and Toyota don't, like UAW legacy costs - it'll be a challenge for them to fill the van chock-full of good stuff and be competitive, but I hope they can do it.
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real world 9:20AM (1/02/2007)
And, in a move not announced generally, Ford has pulled the plug on the Freestar. Originally scheduled to end in April '07, Ford announced to dealers on December 26th that Freestar production has ended forever.
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Michael Karesh 9:22AM (1/02/2007)
I just updated my site's list of most popular price comparisons, and even compared to six months ago mininvans are much less prominent than they were. For a long time minivan comparisons were among the most popular on my site, which didn't surprise me as mininvan purchases tend to be more driven by reason rather than emotion.
The Odyssey-Sienna comparison was #1 by a wide margin for the first year and a half. But a couple of months ago it feel to second, and now it's fourth. Other minivan comparisons have nearly fallen off the list.
Might be a fluke, but the implication is that minivans are fading fast. And right before DCX introduces a new one.
The list:
http://www.truedelta.com/popular.php
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Mike 9:27AM (1/02/2007)
Meanwhile, post some sales numbers instead of creating a misleading article: Not counting the 40 percent fleet sales, the DCX vans STILL outsell the competition.
and there is a reason for that.
My father has a 2002 Grand Caravan with 216k miles. It doesn't burn any oil, gets 25 mpg combined, is used to tow frequently. The only repairs needed are brake pads/shoes, tires, rear shocks, and a front caliper bolt. The trans is perfect. The interior doesn't have any rattles. The thing is a rock... and I HATE minivans.
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Craig 10:20AM (1/02/2007)
I am on my second DCX van. They don't hold their value like a Honda, but they can be obtained for FAR less money. Also, the power liftgate is a $400 option, and is not available on the Honda unless you spring for the $35K+ Touring model. We have been very happy with the Dodges, and I am sure the new '08s will be very well done.
The article doesn't mention the Toyota Sienna, which seems to be sold to fleets in large numbers as well. Wonder why? Honda doesn't do fleet sales of any of their cars. Toyota does (Corolla, Camry, Sienna, etc). Could it be that they want to make the domestics look bad, so they leave Toyota out and make comparisons to Honda?
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Spud 10:47AM (1/02/2007)
As I'm sure is the case with most who visit this site, I enjoy driving. I've driven all varieties of domestic minivans and I own a Odyssey and there is no comparisson. The big three lost their way a long time ago...
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AZMike 10:58AM (1/02/2007)
it's interesting to note all the "glowing" reports for the Honda minivan. like all Honda products, there are NO options; you have to take it the way they package it. want a top line model without navigation? forget it!
want leather in a mid line model? no way. how about a tow package, or a different audio system? move up to the more expensive model, and it may not even be available there, like the tow package. the domestics (and Toyota) offer a multitude of choices, but don't expect that on ANY Honda.
as Craig pointed out, there is nothing mentioned about all the fleet sales Toyota has. if you are a manufacturer looking for volume, fleets are always the way to go. I don't have a clue why some think this is such a bad thing; I've certainly never wanted to be in the line marked "I want to pay too much for something".
Chrysler has owned the minivan market since they created it in 1984, and that will not change. they still own about 60% of the market, and I anticipate it will increase when their new van comes out later this year.
the minivan is still the best way to move people who have actual legs. sitting in the back of an SUV reminds me of being a kid, stuffed the back of a station wagon. sitting over the rear axle didn't make much sense then and even less now. FWD is the most efficient way to package any vehicle.
Mike
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blogged to death 10:58AM (1/02/2007)
As an owner of 3 different DCX minivans and now a Honda Odyssey. The quality between the 2 is substantial.
My first Dodge Caravan was an '85 model with the Mitsubishi 2.5. That car got 215k miles on it and had very little expensive problems (just a bunch of $100-$200 here problems over its lifetime). The 2nd was a '96 Plymouth Voyager that had so many problems it shook my faith in DCX. From transmission & differential problems, wheel bearings, head gaskets (2x), a/c (2x), alternators - by 110k miles I had to get rid of it. Thinking it was that "rare" lemon I bought a 99 Caravan. By 30k miles I sold it after spending 1/3 of a year in the shop with warranty problems.
I lost faith and bought my first non American car. I wound up buying a used 1998 Honda Odyssey LX (had to drive immediately over to buy it on the spot in order to even get one). Used it was more expensive than my new 99 Caravan. I thought I just got ripped off but over time you get what you pay for. It has only had one recall for a transmission issue where they needed to add a oil path deflector thingy. But now at 250k miles on it and having only one part fail (alternator). Not to mention the interior on it is still in great shape where my DCX vans where falling apart (expecially the 96 - many seat levers and plastic knobs where broken or the button name was worn off).
So here I am looking at another minivan (as 250k is a lot of miles) and will look at the new DCX but may just keep the Odyssey for another $250k or get a new one (man $25k is a lot).
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Don 12:30PM (1/02/2007)
Chrysler knows how to do a minivan. We've owned two and they're very nice products (if a bit disappointing in long term reliability). Ford has never really gotten the minivan market. GM wasted a lot of money making badge engineered variants of an old design (not a bad one till they tried to SUV the appearance) rather than one good refresh. Also, I think Nissan isn't doing that hot with the latest Quest, so it's not just the domestics flaming out.
I worry about the automakers ceding whole segments of the market. No one knows the future perfectly. What did the market look like for big SUVs and Pickups when GM started developing their latest model?
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RobB 11:18AM (1/02/2007)
Honda Odyssey and quality???
My 2000 Odyssey (80 000 miles)is on third transmission...
Plus so many problems with power sliding door dealer can not fix..
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Tony 11:33AM (1/02/2007)
I dunno about the rest of the country, but here in the midwest all I SEE are minivans, especially Chryslers and Dodges. Ours has been great so so far.....
Went to the Wal-Mart the other day and counted 15 of 'em down one row.
Maybe it's just where I live....?????????????
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Shawn 11:35AM (1/02/2007)
Odyssey is absolutely the worst vehicle Honda's ever made. My coworker's van has been in the shop dozens of times since she bought it in 2001. It feels like I drove her to work more often than her van's been on the road.
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Andrew 11:43AM (1/02/2007)
I don't see what the big deal is about fleet sales. Fleets want good cars, right? Maybe they care less about style and performance than the average consumer, but they presumably care about value and reliability above all else. If American cars and vans were all crapola, why would a fleet buyer want them? A cheap price is not a good deal if it's expensive to maintain. They know those Malibus and Taurauses and Freestars may not be the most exciting rides, but they're reasonably price and will handle the repeated abuse of rental car drivers.
If anything, a fleet purchase is an ENDORSEMENT to the masses that care most about value and reliability. For the enthusiast, there are more beautiful and fun cars, but for the rest of the world, fleet sales are a strong indicator of a good, solid, depenable vehicles.
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Tim 11:59AM (1/02/2007)
15. Ummmmmm...No. Cars under fleet sales are often sold under invoice or at a loss to the manufacturer. BIG 3 cut back on their fleet sales because they were basically building cars to keep their workers working and prevent plants from idling. Look at most of the sales numbers and the 3 are falling because fleet sales are down. They don't want to sell to fleets because it cheapens the image, looses money and decreases resale value. Also most fleets get rid of their cars before the factory warranty expires.
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AZMike 12:38PM (1/02/2007)
Tim,
one big problem with your logic. if, as you allege, the big 3 have slowed down fleet sales, who is making up the numbers? I don't see too many rental fleets shrinking in size, do you?
I don't know where this twisted logic of "fleets are bad" comes from. as was repeatedly pointed out, fleet buyers choose vehicles that hold up under hard rental use; it isn't just about $$. if a car is repeatedly down, there is no rental income being generated, but that monthly payment is still due, whether the car is in service or not.
most manufacturers (regardless of country of origin) always put their new models in rental service first. this helps to shake down any problems, and also gives the manufacturer some free publicity.
when Kia first came to the US, it was actually in 1993, not 1994. ALL of the 1993 models were put into rental service (mostly in the western US and Hawaii), and this gave Kia valuable information on durability, and what needed improvement.
Mike
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Mike 1:13PM (1/02/2007)
This story is a total lie, a fake .................. total bull. Because if it wasn't it would simply mean that GM Ford and DC are making inferior cars compared to others. And if that was true than all cars by GM Ford and DC would be suspects.
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Dan 1:07PM (1/02/2007)
I love my 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan....
Odyssey was about $6 000 more than my van when I was shopping... So far I have about 25 000 miles on my dodge without any problem
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Phil 1:27PM (1/02/2007)
Automotive Lease Guide, the residual kings, needs to lower the Toyota Sienna's resale value accordingly as fleet sales build.
Andrew, you're 'endorsement theory'
about fleet sales is dead wrong. Fleet buyers bought from those who would sell cars the cheapest, and that was GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Now Toyota is filling in the blank to some extent. What's good for the goose...
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