Filed under: Maintenance, Mazda
Mazda responds to RX-8 community's anger over leaked video
Recently a privileged video released without Mazda's permission was leaked onto the internet. In the video, a member of the Mazda National Dealer Advisory Council states, "Mazda is well aware of the negative impact on the scores caused by the RX-8 surveys. They agreed with us that the situation had to be changed. And so, effective July 1st, RX-8 will be continued to be included in the survey, but the scores will no longer be included in the results."For some owners, the RX-8 has mechanical gremlins that continually occur (a complete list of service bulletins can be found here). Squeaky brakes, for instance, are one issue that has received three Technical Service Bulletins, according to zoom44, an administrator of the rx8club forum. Some owners never experience the issue while others have visited dealers several times to get it fixed. Other issues range from repeated engine flooding to reported cases of engine failure on certain models in hot climates. Whether these gremlins are caused by faulty design or poor service work is a hot debate on the RX-8 forums.
The tight community of RX-8 owners, however, supports each other in their quest to keep the Zoom-Zoom going. To help each other out, rx8club forum members have even begun a listing of Mazda dealerships at which owners have had both good and bad experiences having service work performed on their cars.
This video that has angered RX-8 owners happened to be seen by zoom44, who attempted repeatedly to get a response from Mazda concerning the statement. After several attempts and no reply, zoom44 decided to post a link on the rx8club forum to the video that's currently hosted on Google Video (though likely not for long).
After the Mazda community tipped us off about the video and we watched it ourselves, we too were perplexed at the statement about RX-8 survey results. Why would RX-8 owners be surveyed if those survey results were not a factor for the dealer in the end? And more importanly, what incentive would dealers have to give RX-8 owners good customer service if these surveys weren't being counted? We contacted Mazda and encouraged Jeremy Barnes, Mazda's PR pointman, to address the issue. He's issued a response to Autoblog that's also been posted on the rx8club forum (#236) concerning the matter, which you can read below. Zoom44, however, has told us, "...a lot of this would have been not necessary had he just responded in the first place."
While a swift response from Barnes probably would've prevented the situation from ever crossing our eyes, we do know that Mazda PR, which as far as we know is just Barnes, has been preoccupied with the that has now become a tragedy. The Shipping vessel tipped over last week off the coast of Alaska while carrying 4,700 Mazda vehicles. This past Monday a salvage worker fell from the wreck and tragically died. While hardly an excuse for not addressing the statements in the video sooner, it's a unique situation that we're sure has made it a tough week for Mazda PR and Barnes in particular.
Whether or not RX-8 owners experience more than their fair share of mechanical trouble does not seem to be the issue here. If they do, Mazda's dealer network is obligated to service those issues under warranty, and from what we can tell most do. The central issue here seems to revolve around those dealers that don't provide RX-8 owners with acceptable levels of customer service and how those dealers are to be discovered and dealt with.
In his response, Barnes states, "...we have not stopped surveying RX-8 owners. There will be no change in emphasis on the level of service customers receive at dealers or the frequency of CARE surveys sent out by Mazda, and we retain our ability to take action if our dealerships do not deliver the service or satisfaction we expect and demand."
Barnes makes it clear in his response that we're not privy to the internal operations of Mazda's dealer body, so a satisfying explanation of what the statement from the video actually means in terms of how RX-8 owner surveys are now handled will likely remain elusive. While that response may not satisfy some RX-8 owners, we hope this situation will at least encourage Mazda to monitor more closely the way its dealers treat RX-8 owners and take action when one isn't meeting its obligation to the customer.
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August 4, 2006
To all RX-8 Forum members:
Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns regarding Mazda's customer satisfaction process. I appreciate how deeply you care about Mazda and about our vehicles.
As I understand, you learned of a change to Mazda's CARE survey process as it relates to RX-8 through a video posted – without Mazda's permission – on the Internet. Unfortunately, the video, which is only one of many ongoing and privileged communications between Mazda, our dealer council and our dealers, does not begin to explain our CARE process or the fact that customer satisfaction is our number one priority. In addition, that video is only one portion of the story behind our CARE survey, and represents only one part of the internal discussions that have surrounded the survey recently.
Because we consider this situation to be proprietary and confidential between us and our dealer body, all I can do is assure you that we are unwavering in our commitment to make owning a Mazda the best possible experience. To that end, we have not stopped surveying RX-8 owners. There will be no change in emphasis on the level of service customers receive at dealers or the frequency of CARE surveys sent out by Mazda, and we retain our ability to take action if our dealerships do not deliver the service or satisfaction we expect and demand.
Our philosophy has been, and continues to be, that we will hold our dealers accountable for situations that are within their control. As such, Mazda's goal is to ensure that our dealers provide all customers, regardless of the vehicle they own, with the highest level of service and customer satisfaction.
To assume after viewing a video posted on the Internet that Mazda would do anything to compromise this is simply and unequivocally wrong.
Again, I thank you for bringing your concerns to us and giving us a chance to respond.
All the best,
Jeremy Barnes
Product Communications Manager
Mazda North American Operations
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
John Neff 2:49AM (8/05/2006)
We worked hard on this post all afternoon contacting everyone involved and gathering information, and we have put it on both Digg.com and Netscape. If you liked the post, we'd appreciate the support on those sites. Just click either link above the RX-8 pic at the top of this page to go each site, login or register, and vote for the post as an interesting and informative piece of news.
Thanks everyone!
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Mr. Wankel 4:05AM (8/05/2006)
Most people here continue without understanding it. It's not that the car has more issues than other cars, just look at the huge number of TSB's for Honda S2000 for example, that's fine if them get fixes, and the BMW service in Europe or at least in my country (Spain) is a joke, expensive and really bad, the problem is that Mazda service has been also very bad with some dealers, and Mazda instead of punishing those dealers in some way, will be ignoring the worst evaluations to raise their score.
The problem it's not with the cars, which are still top on realibility lists, the problem is with the scoring.
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n8 7:07AM (8/05/2006)
If you don't know already, the rx8s are full of problems and issues. Its mpg is like your aunt's hummer and tons of misc issues. That car is an overpriced pos, I rather be driving a Mazda Speed 3. To be honest, I think Mazda knows the car has issues, but they have bigger fish to fry rather than to deal w/ a miniscule # of bitchin' rx8 owners.
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Mr. Wankel 8:22AM (8/05/2006)
A wankel is going to burn oil and a little more gas than the equivalent piston engine because of it's characteristics. It doesn't burn the exageration of gas some ignorant/misinformed people (like you) says, I'm getting about 21MPG on highways, 16 in city and 14 in the twisties driving it pretty hard (90% time in redline). Sure, it's not a Golf TDI but that's not far from what other performance cars in her HP range gets, and it's a lot diferent from a Hummer. You can search on the rx8club forum for threads about the mpg people gets.
It drinks about 1 quart oil every 3000 miles (again, my car.)
The only mechanical problem I've had with her is the squaling brakes. I would not call this "ridden with problems". And don't tell my how my car goes, because I've one for 2 years and 60.000 miles and you don't.
The problem here is *THE SERVICE RATINGS GETTING FROM RX-8 OWNERS IGNORED*.
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Andrew Astor 9:18AM (8/05/2006)
I have an 04 and my dealership SUCKS ! They are the rudest and seemingly could not care any less. What is worse is that they said to call Mazda National Customer Service and they were even less inclined to help me. Basically, it seems that EVERYONE within Mazda had become hardened against it's customers and servicing them; Not a good combination and definitely NOT what we paid or bargained for. REMEMBER: Ford makes, Mazda, Jaguar, Lincoln, Mercury, etc. Don't ever buy a Ford either !!!!
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champcarfan 9:54AM (8/05/2006)
I was selling mazdas when these RX8 came out. I live in a northern climate. These cars were the absolute worst cars to deal with when moving cars when it snowed. Most of them would not start because the engine would flood and the other half you could get started would'nt move because the tires had such low grip it would not move. It got so bad we parked them all together and simply would plow around them. Some of them did'nt get out of the snow bank till spring. To rest of you posters the RX8 is the exception the rest of line is a pretty reliable and fun. I have owned 3 mazdas. Please don't lump them in VW. I owned a Jetta and it was the worst car I had ever owned.
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Summa 9:59AM (8/05/2006)
Rotaries are wonderful engines and have attributes that are difficult to understand (especially for a market that values torque & cubic inches). They're small, lightweight engines that can be more easily packaged in vehicles and are a main enabler for a car the size and weight of the RX8 having 4 real seats and such an innovative door layout.
Are they an Accord when it comes to reliable & refined operation? Actually, I would venture to guess that they're better than, say, a 1986 Accord LX was when it was new... Think about this for a second. In 1986, Honda launched an Accord that retained carburetors and introduced pop-up headlamps. I know, I've worked for Honda and I can tell you that, though this car was really innovative for the segment and established the Accord as the best selling car in the U.S., there were issues with everything from harsh ride (no travel in the front suspension), to brake rotors warping, to carburetors and chokes, to headlamps, to... I loved my old Accord but, frankly, it wasn't trouble-free.
On the other hand, I have had two RXes (an old 91 Convertible and, now, a new RX8) and, though I don't expect them to be as easy as my wife's CRV, they've proven to be both as refined as anything I could have bought (the 91 is incredibly smooth and wonderful, even after over 100k miles of meticulous care, and makes my dad's 94 300ZX feel like a tractor) and have not been as trouble-prone as, for example, my Hondas.
I also have a Mazda3 as a company car and, though I have had recalls & tsb work done on it, the only troubles I've had have been with the revolving door (hmmmm, sort of like a rotary) at the service department and, unfortunately, damage to the roof of my car that they absolutely denied doing to my car.
Finally, getting back to the RX8 (and my RX7); They're special cars, built by people who really want to make emotionally-fulfilling products. They're the anti-Camry (though Toyota seems to want to be more passionate, themselves). They're biggest problem is in their local marketing and service organization; It's not Honda, in that regard, and THAT could be what really differentiates the two when it comes to why one became a sales & image leader and the other is Mazda.
If my RX8 had a Lotus or Porsche badge on it (two manufacturers who, at least originally, made their names on small, lightweight sporting vehicles), we wouldn't have this conversation. On the other hand, Mazda specifically wanted to position their vehicles in the mass-market, where expectations are often higher and where service is more of an issue.
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funzoom 12:00PM (8/05/2006)
I've had my RX-8 for awhile now and have not had a single problem or a single service headache for anything I have brought it in for (routine maintenance issues). The dealership will even search out any potential TSBs that may apply to my car each time I bring it in and I have never had a problem to require one. In fact, at over 25,000 miles I haven't had anything go wrong on that car!
A large portion of immediate and extended family have owned Mazda vehicles going back to the 80s and all of them are still in great shape, have had relatively few problems which were mainly just related to the age and high mileage of the vehicles themselves where stuff wears out and needs replacing. None of them have complained of getting bad service or bad cars. I'd say between the family members there have been close to 30 different Mazdas owned, and all of them went to at least 100,000 miles with no problems. One I am aware of had 283,000 miles on it (and 11 years old) before it was finally replaced as the daily driver on a pre-ordered MS6, which has also been running just fine and no problems with "limp mode." It's amazing what can happen when people actually follow the recommendations (manual specifically says to use the premium high-octane fuel) and take care of their cars!
I don't think the majority of complaints people have are with the vehicles themselves (from experience) but rather some dealerships have bad service departments that don't know what they are doing!
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Clubsport 12:19PM (8/05/2006)
I had a '93 RX-7 R1. It was an early car that I picked up Nov. '92. I went through all of the ECU/Octane issues. all of the second turbo blow off hose issues, dealt with everything pre-bulletin. That is STILL one of my most favorite cars. I eventually had good luck with a dealer in Santa Monica.
I'd be interested in hearing back from people if that dealer has gone bad. I was reading up on a Mazdaspeed3 and thinking that was a possibility. I have this sickness of wanting to drive everything. I usually only keep things for about 2 years. That's probably why I hold the RX-7 so high on the list.
Sorry about the problems you RX-8 guys are having. I've been there.
Side note: after all these years,I finally picked up a car that handles as well as the RX-7 R1. The '05 BMW 330i Perf. pkg car I have now matches the R1. (imho) Not in performance or looks obviously. It would a good car to get used if your wife/gf/yourself got pregnant.
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KT 12:30PM (8/05/2006)
Ford does not OWN Mazda...it is NOT their parent company...a Mazda dealer has not ties with FORD or FORD dealers. Get your facts right before you go spewing nonsense. Thank you.
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Michelle 1:48PM (8/05/2006)
I have a 2004 RX-8 and LOVE it. I've had only one issue with the engine flooding out and that was due to someone trying to start my car that shouldn't have tried touching it.
I love the car and would buy it again daily. (I've owned many cars and can only say this for a few). It's not any different than any other vehicle out there, they need maintenance! It's fun to drive and a good looking car. Why else do we by cars like this?! People that are looking for good gas mileage should not buy sporty vehicles, SUV's, or trucks. Stick to the boring sedans!
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Mr. Wankel 2:50PM (8/05/2006)
champcarfan, next time read the manual so you won't get the motor flooded, it's as easy as leaving it at idle two minutes until the motor is not cold before putting it off. You worked there, you should have know.
For things like that is why dealers get bad scores.
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Rotorlicious 2:57PM (8/05/2006)
It's obvious from some of the comments here that there are still many misconceptions regarding the rotary engine. It would do some of you some good to educate yourself before posting.
It's not about the car! It's about making dealerships accountable for their actions. These types of things happen can occur at any dealership, regardless of what make and models they sell. Having been an 8 owner now for almost two years now I have had ZERO problems with the motor. It's an absolute joy to drive. I love this car. The issues Ive reported to MNAO are minor yet it's been frustrating. Ive been back and forth trying to get these issues resolved yet I still seem to get the "cold shoulder" from my dealer.....
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ken leary 10:32PM (8/06/2006)
I traded my 8 for an s2000. I had to take the Mazda dealership to small claims court for their shoddy work and I won. I would never deal with Mazda again.
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mdw 11:26PM (8/06/2006)
I've actually had quite good luck with my 05 RX-8. I think most of the problems were with the 04. If you look at consumer reports reliability surveys (yes, I know they are not perfect but I don't know of a better independent gauge of reliability), you'll see that the 04s had problems but that the 05s have been very reliable.
From my understanding most of the reliabiliy problems with rotary motors over the years have been people trying to run too much boost. NA rotaries historically have very good reliability.
Also, the RX-8 "burns" oil by design.
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GDUB 8:51AM (8/07/2006)
We love our brand new 8.
+ great handeling,great ergonomics,style
- piss poor gasmileage 15mpg,squeaky brakes we have 2k on the car.
For a 32k flagship car we expect better service and car quality from MAZDA
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champcarfan 9:49AM (8/07/2006)
Mr. Wankel. Of course I would have let it idle. But they would flood while trying to start it. Maybe you should have understood what I wrote before insulting me and dealers everywhere.
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damian 2:10PM (8/07/2006)
I own an RX8, love the car, and haven't had any issues with it at all. It really is a blast to drive but my experience with the dealership has been so bad (in comparison to the service on my old TT) that I would never buy another Mazda, period; it's genuinely that bad.
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Steve S 5:00PM (8/07/2006)
A lot of the issues with the RX-8 were on 04 and 05 models. When ever you get a 1st year model of a completely new car design you have to expect some problems.
Secondly a lot of it is a dealership, both sales and service not understanding the engine and not informing their customers accordingly on the maintenance and care it requires. Many early owners should have never been owners and probably would not have been if informed correctly about the car.
There is a DVD that comes with the RX8 that details all of this. Every prospective owner should be offered to watch it prior to owning by the dealership.
The RX8 is a great car it just requires a little more care than a piston engine. At least I don’t have a timing belt to change or 50 other moving parts.
And if you don’t want a car with issues wait until the 3rd or 4th year of production before you buy.
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adin 3:16PM (8/08/2006)
Thank god I sold back my RX-8 during the horsepower fiasco.
While the horsepower issue itself took nothing away from the absolute *joy* of driving the car--I took it as a foreshadow of all sorts of issues from Mazda and its dealer network.
Sounds like I was bang-on (unfortunately). Guess I won't be buying a new Mazda this year. :(
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