Filed under: Hybrids/Alternative, Green, Tech, Toyota
Toyota pursuing plug-in hybrids and FFVs
Remember a long time ago when we reported that Toyota would not be developing a plug-in version of its popular hybrid vehicles, specifically a plug-in Toyota "King of Kilowatts" Prius? Well, power to the people! Jim Press stated today at the National Press Club that Toyota is indeed "pursuing" development of a plug-in hybrid vehicle. Press also told Automotive News that his company was also "strongly considering" the sale of ethanol capable vehicles, or flex-fuel vehicles (FFVs) in the U.S. Toyota's effort in the way of plug-in hybrid technology comes in response to pressure both from the U.S. government and environmental groups who have called on automakers to look beyond hybrids for other solutions to our nation's energy problems. Automakers have been reticent, however, because plug-in hybrids require larger, more expensive battery packs that can withstand being charged to full capacity and drained completely on a daily basis. Toyota will have to work quick, however, as Ford may be the first automaker with a plug-in hybrid on the market.
Ethanol and E85 are not really on the radar of John Q. Public in the U.S., but domestic automakers are heavily marketing their efforts to produce more FFVs and increase the number of E85 pumps on the ground. Toyota expressing interest in developing engines capable of running on both gasoline and E85 implies it doesn't want to be the odd automaker out if E85 catches on.
[Source: Automotive News]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
MattS 5:34PM (7/18/2006)
I love the idea of plug in hybrids, why directly convert an oil product to mechanical energy when you can convert it at a power plant to mechanical energy then electrical energy then transmit it several miles over inefficient lines, incurr the ineffiencies charging storage devices that themselves have a loss factor THEN convert it back to mechanical energy. This is brilliant! Seriously I'm not sure what we'd do without the rocket scientists behind this one.
now if we were to say build nuclear power plants again and develop some kind of strategy there...
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chewy 5:35PM (7/18/2006)
Here is why Toyota (and othe automakers) want to build E85 FFV, it isn't because they are nice.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?article_id=11174§ion_id=4&page_number=7#flex
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Brother Justin 5:42PM (7/18/2006)
What the hell is a plug-in hybrid? An Electric CAR!! Yeah I want a car that goes 100 miles and then has to be plugged in again. They tried it, it didn't work.
#1, you are on the money, lets burn more coal and natural gas to make the electricity, just to save gas.
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Ryan 5:44PM (7/18/2006)
"1. I love the idea of plug in hybrids, why directly convert an oil product to mechanical energy when you can convert it at a power plant to mechanical energy then electrical energy then transmit it several miles over inefficient lines, incurr the ineffiencies charging storage devices that themselves have a loss factor THEN convert it back to mechanical energy. This is brilliant! Seriously I'm not sure what we'd do without the rocket scientists behind this one."
Matt S:
Ya know, your right as United States Americans we should just give up, there's no hope, no vision. Good Job Matt S. No hope.
Hey it's worth TRYING.
Your forgetting:
It's currently more important to get off of OIL rather than the enviroment at this current time.
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Ryan 5:46PM (7/18/2006)
"#1, you are on the money, lets burn more coal and natural gas to make the electricity, just to save gas."
My next door neighbor for 25k (cheap) converted his house to 100% solar, did you forget about this option? Or mabye just a solar option for the Prius?
Dude, nice ASSUMPTIONS.
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Hung2 5:47PM (7/18/2006)
Might as well announce the recall now and get it over with!
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loikll 5:56PM (7/18/2006)
#3, I agree that a pure electric car is useless crap, but a plug-in hybrid is a GAS-ELECTRIC hybrid, and therefore doesn't need to be recharged after 100 miles to keep going. You can take it on road trip and fill it up at the gas station. Best of both worlds.
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kag 5:57PM (7/18/2006)
Ya know, your right as United States Americans we should just give up, there's no hope, no vision. Good Job Matt S. No hope.
Hey it's worth TRYING.
It's currently more important to get off of OIL rather than the enviroment at this current time. - Ryan
Why exactly is it important to get off oil? Here's a great editorial by Patrick Bedard: http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/9978/patrick-bedard.html
He's talking about hydrogen here, but the same idea holds true.
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Ryan 6:03PM (7/18/2006)
"Why exactly is it important to get off oil?"
Well, uh... Mabye this little country call IRAN and NIGERA and VENEZUELA, have all of us by the nutsac and won't be letting go anytime soon.
Even if hydrogen or hybrids are more expensive we won't be dependant on psycho fucks around the world.
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Desiri 6:10PM (7/18/2006)
http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html
"As for numbers keyed to the national grid, two government studies found plug-in HEVs would result in large reductions even with the national grid (50-60% coal). The GREET 1.6 model in 2001 by the US Department of Energy's Argonne National Lab estimates hybrids reduces greenhouse gases by 22%, and a plug-in hybrid by 36% -- see table 2. An Argonne researcher reached consensus with researchers from other national labs, universities, the Air Resources Board, automakers, utilities and AD Little to estimate in July 2002 that plug-in HEVs using nighttime power reduce greenhouse gases by 46 to 61 percent.
...
PHEVs will generally recharge at night using excess power from plants that can't shut down completely -- so they don't add to the peak load."
Maybe you should have done two minutes of research before posting your ignorant knee-jerk reaction.
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jeff 6:31PM (7/18/2006)
There are some more informed people here making more understandable mistakes or not even mistakes but... questionable assumptions, but i thought i'd go after the dude that doesn't seem to know anything at all about plug in hybrids.
#3, Brother Justin... you should read up a bit about the technology. The idea is that you take a regular hybrid car, beef up the batteries, and allow it to be charged both by regular hybrid means as well as through a plug. A plug in hybrid would never NEED to be plugged in, as it would still have a gas tank and a gas engine. But if your daily commute is only 50 or 100 miles or something, you might be able to get by without turning on the engine at all. Only after you'd drained the batteries, or perhaps if you were asking for more power than the electric side could provide, would the engine turn on.
Presumably, as battery technology improved, the gas engine would be needed less and less, possibly providing a smooth as butter transition to completely electric vehicles, once the technology is up to the task.
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Charles S 6:33PM (7/18/2006)
Man, this is sad. Judging from all the comments I've read about plug-in hybrids, I see that the public really do not understand the potential, the possibilities for a plug-in hybrid.
First, the Prius is ALREADY an Electric Car, but it is programmed to use its EV counterpart as a suppliment the inefficient cycles of driving. With a larger battery, it would be able to use its EV side more often.
Second, Plug-in Hybrids is more of an evolution of the current hybrids, not really new category of cars. It really doesn't take that much work for Toyota to deliver a Plug-in, just some software upgrade plus new generation of nano-based batteries.
Third, because plug-ins now can be "integrated" into your home electrical network, during a power outage, your plug-in hybrid can also become an emergency generator. You will need to make sure proper circuits are installed. I do not know if Toyota will include this feature, but it is certainly an option.
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RP 7:11PM (7/18/2006)
#3 wrote:
> "What the hell is a plug-in hybrid? An Electric CAR!! Yeah I want a car that goes 100 miles and then has to be plugged in again. They tried it, it didn't work."
Wrong. A plug-in hybrid still has a gasoline engine, which we know makes more sense for long trips and highway use. But electricity currently is cheaper for stop-and-go/city driving. It's the best of both worlds, efficiency-wise.
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Tool 8:31PM (7/18/2006)
This could be the 500 MPG vehicle that NYT columnist spoke of earlier this year.
Imagine a Toyota plug-in hybrid capable of running on E85 and all of a sudden 500 miles on a gallon of gasoline is a real possibility.
I have a 2007 Prius with the Euro package on-order right now. The idea of even 60 MPG sounds pretty exciting to me now. I will gladly order the new 2008/09 Prius when it comes out.
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Tool 8:33PM (7/18/2006)
Oops the New York Times columnist I was speaking of is Tom Friedman.
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Charles S 8:37PM (7/18/2006)
By the way, let me add a little more to my comment about using a hybrid car as a back-up generator for home. The power just went out last night at my place. It wasn't a rolling blackout, but probably a busted transformer. The night time temperature last night was 80+. Luckily the power was restored after about an hour... it was getting a bit warm towards the end.
I used to be interested in portable power generators in case of power outage. Those things used to be REALLY expensive, but the prices have came down quite a bit recently. I'm not sure why, but maybe it's because more people are willing to buy one, supply goes up, and prices fall. In any case, I really thought about getting one for home, but then found out the maintenance is a pain. I recently watched a show about an automated system that will self-check every week, and with a specialize switch, will turn itself on when the power goes out, and stops when the power comes back on. It sure sounds great, til I saw the price tag, somewhere around $5000+ installed.
Anyways, if Toyota is really interested in offering the option for PHEV to be used as a backup generator, I certainly will factor in the option into the vehicle cost.
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Brother Justin 8:51PM (7/18/2006)
I've read the comments some are good, others are assholes. But unless you have Solar or a Nuke plant, YOU ARE USING FOSSIL FUELS in one form or another.
HEY Desiri, you did get the ASSHOLE award for this blog. Responses were only from the post and from a bad link that you had to sign up for. Sorry didn't have your link inbedded in my head.
You FUCKING TREE HUGGING LOLLYPOP!!
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Charles S 8:52PM (7/18/2006)
Woh, slow down there, folks!
"50 to 100 milles without turn on the gas engine"?
"...500 mpg..."
Geez, people, check the numbers before pushing the button. PHEV is not suppose to be a pure EV with 100+ miles in range. Do not get disappointed if the first PHEV will only get about 10-20 miles TOPS under EV only mode. This will keep the cost down, and still improve overall gas mileage. For people who commute within the city, the plug-in feature will certainly yeild significant result. For folks who live very far from work, early PHEV probably won't make a big difference.
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Charles S 9:00PM (7/18/2006)
"YOU ARE USING FOSSIL FUELS in one form or another."
Sure, but which one has better control on emissions? Capturing pollutant from millions of cars, or control the exhaust from a few hundred power plants?
Again, people ignore the fact that plug-ins will STORE electricity during night time. Some power stations cannot just turn off generators just because the demand goes down, and a lot of energy is wasted when a generator goes up and down. Plug-ins and EVs are good compliment to our current electric infrastructure.
Before jumping on the gun and cursing out people you do not understand, maybe you should take a moment and read up on EVs.
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Stoneman 10:40PM (7/18/2006)
Trying to build a super-efficient car which relies only on non-hydrocarbon fuel is pretty hard. Especially if you want to keep the costs at a reasonable price. The cheapest I can think of is used vegetable oil.
Stoneman
http://www.stonemanautoreview.com
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