Filed under: Tech, Audi, Volkswagen
VW to replace all automatics with DSG?
Volkwagen's Direct Shift Gearbox/S-Tronic twin clutch gearbox has been fairly canonized by all who have mashed its paddles. And now, the automaker's product chief Wolfgang Bernhard is suggesting that the gearbox will replace all of its conventional automatics in much of the VW kingdom shortly, including transverse-mount Audis, Skodas, Seats, and VWs. Apparently, VW is having a issues dealing with longitudinal applications at the moment.
Bernhard also allowed that the VW has no plans to license the technology, preferring to keep the transmission for itself.
[Source: The Car Connection]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
me 8:18AM (6/14/2006)
Good idea. I've driven both DSG and the 6-auto. The DSG is quite nice. Costs are almost the same, I think the DSG is actually lighter. And the efficiency would add to the product over the normal 6-auto. Yes, yes, before anyone harps, the 6-manual is still more efficient. Although the latest numbers actually show the DSG to be better on mileage than the 6-speeds? weird, or just good technology.
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Pit 8:33AM (6/14/2006)
I believe it is technically possible, but are less convinced it will satisfy customers.
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Gil 8:43AM (6/14/2006)
"Yes, yes, before anyone harps, the 6-manual is still more efficient."
Uh... in what way? If you keep it in AUTO mode then yes manuals are more efficient but if you use the paddles absolutely NO MANUAL GEARBOX OR DRIVER can match the performance of a DSG
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Dr. Woo 8:47AM (6/14/2006)
I hope I hope I hope I hope they develop a way to mount this transmission to a longitudinal engine. I want my next car to be a B8 Audi A4 V6 DSG.
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wushu 9:00AM (6/14/2006)
Does the no licensing policy apply to Porsche? After all, they came out with the first DSG, called PDK, years ago, and, more importantly, owns a large chunk of VW.
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pavster 9:19AM (6/14/2006)
This things seems simpler than regular automatics that have what, 6+ clutches? I really believe this is the future, and more automakers will be developing this sort of tranny. I've heard rumours of BMW going this route. That will be one sweet car.
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MikeW 9:50AM (6/14/2006)
What license issues?
The only thing VW specific is the transmission, the clutching system comes from Borg-Warner (aka DualTronic)
Audi showed the roadjet concept, longitudinal 7 speed double clutch, with the front axle under the engine.
Right now the automatic have an advantage in ratio coverage, unless VW gets a transverse 7 speed DSG, this would be a bad idea in the US market.
People believe that the steady state advantage in mileage of a manual shift transmission can beat the overall mileage of a DSG.
People will also balk at the thought of replacing the tranmission fluid every 50,000 or so miles, just when the got used to 'sealed for life' automatics
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C 10:09AM (6/14/2006)
I drove a DSG GTI back to back with a manual, and I was definitely impressed with the DSG--I think it will be a good compromise for a lot of people.
But it's not a smooth as a current automatic, and it's not as fun as a full manual. I don't care what they do with the current slushboxes as long as they still offer three pedals for less money.
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Fred D. 10:17AM (6/14/2006)
The cynical side of me says that VW is doing this for the downstream parts/service income for clutch replacements.
Modern automatics basically last the lifetime of the car. Manual transmission clutches can last well over 100k miles. I wonder about the lifespan of DSG clutches, and how much they cost to replace?
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G. Snyder 10:28AM (6/14/2006)
"This things seems simpler than regular automatics that have what, 6+ clutches? "
Conventional automatics have clutches?
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Michael Parker 10:45AM (6/14/2006)
yes, conventional automatics have clutches. They don't connect the tranny to the engine like manual gearbox clutches do, they start and stop various parts of the planetary gear packs to change the effective gearing ratio.
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Riker 10:47AM (6/14/2006)
G. Snyder,
Yep. Conventional auto trannys have a series of clutch packs for each section of the planetary gearset. There's just no cable and pedal operating them.
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Michael Karesh 11:15AM (6/14/2006)
I conducted a series of polls over at Fourtitude and VWVortex a few months ago. A shocking number of people buying the DSG are sticker shift fanatics who claim they would never buy an automatic.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2531928
Each poll links back to the previous one.
The market for manuals is small enough already. These polls indicate that as much of half of this market might defect to DSGs if they were widely available. If this happened, manuals might be offered even less often than they are already.
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Michael Karesh 11:16AM (6/14/2006)
I conducted a series of polls over at Fourtitude and VWVortex a few months ago. A shocking number of people buying the DSG are sticker shift fanatics who claim they would never buy an automatic.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2531928
Each poll links back to the previous one.
The market for manuals is small enough already. These polls indicate that as much of half of this market might defect to DSGs if they were widely available. If this happened, manuals might be offered even less often than they are already.
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Michael Karesh 11:17AM (6/14/2006)
Make that "stick shift."
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MikeW 11:18AM (6/14/2006)
You don't replace the wet clutches in the transmission, you replace the fluid.
How many Auid Multitronic CVTs needed clutch replacements?
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bgdc 11:38AM (6/14/2006)
DSG almost convinced me to shift to Audi when I bought a new car. It's liquid smooth and ultra-fast - far faster than any manual driver. Unfortunately, Audi's cars still feel rather muted vis-a-vis BMW. And the FWD/AWD drivetrains suck for me - I'm a RWD guy all the way.
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Fabulo 7:35PM (6/14/2006)
How does the first gear engage from neutral?
The evil in auto gear boxes is not the gearbox per se, it's the torque converter. Pumping loss, slippage, call it whatever you like, it's what I don't like.
DSG don't have a torque converter? Is there some magic (read: carefully electrnically controlled clutch for just the right amount) Or a dumb "locking" torque converter a-la CVT?
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Alan 12:36AM (6/17/2006)
There is no torque converter in a DSG. Mechanically, it is much like a manual transmission, but with two clutches, and automated operation. You wouldn't believe the "DSG: Manual or Automatic"-type threads that were on the Vortex when this transmission came out.
In any case, I went with a manual, but the DSG is a very good design. It is a lot smoother than BMW's SMG, and to the average consumer is an automatic, except that it is faster and gets better city mileage than a manual. I'm sure it will be marketed as an automatic.
As for changing the fluid every 40,000 miles, I don't see this as a big deal. Even GM is backing away from the "100k tune-up" gimmick that implied that little maintenance was necessary. Standard automatics usually recommend fluid changes around 50K or 60K, anyway. Since VW recommends oil changes and standard maintenance every 10K anyway, it is easy to remember (service at 5K, 10K, 20K, 30K, 40K ...).
I think that within 10 years, all manufacturers will use something like DSG as their main transmission. This has the potential to displace both conventional automatics and manuals.
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Tony 10:35AM (7/31/2006)
I recently bought an Audi A3 3.2 with the DSG gearbox and it's awesome. It never leaves me struggling in the wrong gear as previous auto boxes have sometimes done and when I want to fly it flies. My only niggle is that in suburban traffic the clutch engagement from rest can be quite fierce unless I really concentrate hard, it's like second guessing what the electronics are about to do.
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