i think the most significant headline from the survey results is that the survey itself is meaningless unless you only own a car for 90 days. three months is nothing, i've had a rental car for longer than that.

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I'm guessing that most Porsche owners don't use their cars as their daily drivers. So a more fair evaluation might be how many problems per mile.

Having worked in the auto business, the survey is a total sham. Every salesperson is coached to tell their customers to give the car top marks even if the car isn't flawless. So it boils down to how persausive the salesperson is, and how agreeable the client is, to giving top marks - deserved or not.

Demographics can play a huge part of how a car does. Got anal engineering types buying your cars? Good luck trying to get a good score. They not only recognize faults where others might not, but they also have an idea of how something should work (rightly or wrongly), and consider it a fault when it doesn't. Then you have the happy-go-lucky types (folks who usually pay MSRP) who will rate anything highly. It goes on and on.

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Of the choices, I'm going with Hyundai.

Of course, you can get IQS two ways:
1. Design the quality in
2. Do a lot of inspection and repair in the plant or at the dealer.

No idea which route Hyundai took. Frankly, all dealers should thoroughly inspect each car before its put on the lot or delivered, but they don't.

The true top story is the redesign of the study to include "design quality" as well as "production quality." Many of the winners will be touting their ranking in ads, but at least 99% of the general public won't correctly interpret these scores. Heck, since they include two different factors, I don't know how to interpret these scores.

I'm personally focusing on a much clearer, direct relevant measure: how many trips does a car take to the shop for something other than maintenance.

http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php

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Am I the only one that thinks the whole Hyundai quality score is a little overblown? Isn't a likely contributor to this the cheap-chic smugness that develops as buyers try to outsmart the established players like Toyota and Honda by getting the same features for cheaper? I know if I bought into the hype of their ads, I'd be disinclined to turn around an complain about my car to the pollsters. I'd be too busy bragging to my friend with the Camry that my car has more airbags and cost less.

Granted, I don't have any friends that own a hyundai, but I see how they might suffer from smugness.

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How about a new choice.

"JD Power screwed up their survey, making it as meaningless as the rest."
(not that initial quality told all that much to begin with)

That would be my choice.

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A pure defect score would be less open to bias. This whole design quality thing opens up all sorts of potential problems, as it's much more subjective.

J.D. Power is apparently trying to measure perceptions of quality. Which is okay, assuming they've got a valid measure, if what you want to know is how people PERCEIVE their cars' quality.

But what if you just want to know whether the car is going to break?

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Hey! Guess what I just received in the mail? After a bit more than a year of ownership of a 2005 MINI Cooper S, JD Powers sent me a survey to fill out regarding my ownership experience. This is a first after 30 years of buying cars.

And I thought JD powers was only interested in the first 90 days of ownership.

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I think autoblog needs to widen the survey or add a valign="top" to the table cell containing the radio input.

Maybe use one of your CSS files to do it.

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#6 Totally agree, Michael.
It seems JD Power invents categories so they can have more "winners" that can use the "award" in their marketing. Kind of makes you wonder whether there is some sort of "honorarium" that is paid to JD Power, huh?
As others have mentioned, 3 month's of ownership is meaningless, as it's just outside the common period for buyer's remorse yet generally before most defects begin to surface. Your measure, on the other hand, would appear to take emotion out of the picture - KEY to making it work. Question is, how do you get honest reporting?

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"Hyundai works hard and takes 3rd place ahead of Toyota"

What a joke. They sink to a new low in blatently ripping off the Accord and now suddenly people think Hyundai can trump Toyota. Let's not forget that quality and reliability are more than skin deep. It takes more than the ability to mimick other brands designs to make a quality car.

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I don't think most understand the period of time used to determine the cycle of quality for a product is the intial 90 days. In the life of most products the intitial 90 days gives an accurate picture of the overall quality life of a product. Statements like 'you can tape something together for 90 days' is mute. JDPowers has employed the 'Initial Quality' structure for automakers because it is a respected and legitimate manner in which to rate each manufacturer. To ignore or dismiss this structure as 'irrelevant' is to basically throw out any possibility of understanding the initial quality of an automobile because as far as I know there is aren't other companies coming to the plate to hold manufacturers accountable for defects and quality issues. Please name other companies who are sitting down at the table with manufacturers and are presenting to them a set of qualifying (and disqualifying) criterion that quality might be measured. Hyundai has worked within the structure to improve their automobiles. In the first 90 days their automobiles are performing at the highest levels of the industry meaning there are generally no defects, the ergonomic design of the interior meets expectations, specifically let's say the seat cushions aren't wrinkling or collapsing prematurely, the drivetrains are working optimally and consumers are reporting that they are having minimal or no problems with their Hyundai as compared with Isuzu customers. But keep in mind that thet best to the worst in like 1 problem per vehicle and that is not that much. To simply dismiss these reports is an ignorance of the industry and how it works to measure in some way the initial quality and experience of 67,000 consumers. I find it interesting that consumers are reporting their Hyundai's are at the top of the market and despite the legitimacy of these reports there are several here who maintain the paradigm that Hyundai's are 'junk' or they dismiss the report. Such an estimation or position is blatant refusal to accept the reality of initial quality. Such an estimation has allowed Hyundai, Honda, Toyota to take 40% of the American market from the Big 2 or 3. The fact is that millions of people are now going to see Hyundai at #3 on a JDPowers list and accept these findings and now shop that product. This is exactly what Hyundai wanted and they will reap huge sales rewards from it. Dismiss all you want but 'Average Joe and Joanne Consumer' accepts these findings and trusts them.

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Agreed Michael and agreed verdegrrl,

The JD Powers survey is really pretty meaningless.

verdegrrl, After 27 years in the car business, I couldn't agree with your comments more, then there is the "who" is filling out the surveys? Think it does not happen? Think again.

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I get so tired of the pitiful "They stole from Honda and Camry!" whiney, crybaby bull****. Of course Hyundai is the ONLY car manufacturer on earth that has borrowed from other cars. I bet you cannot name 3 popular brands of car that haven't borrowed elements of other cars. One of the new Lexus "borrowed" the trapazoid shape of the rear taillights from the Sonata. Do the Scion, Maxima and chevy have almost identical taillights? How about the Audi A4 and the civic 4 door? Same exact taillights. Did BOTH the Jetta AND the Passat bite off the Celica's rear lights? How many cars did the new camry copy? How about the rear lights on the accord? How many times has that been done? Everybody borrows. If you're gonna call out Hyundai, be fair and call everybody out, cuz nobody is ultimately original.

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Agreed Michael and agreed verdegrrl,

The JD Powers survey is really pretty meaningless.

verdegrrl, After 27 years in the car business, I couldn't agree with your comments more, then there is the "who" is filling out the surveys? Think it does not happen? Think again.

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ohhhh and my brother owns a 1998 Elantra wagon with 130,000 miles. He has performed regular maintenance and had one issue related to the fuel injectors at 50,000 miles that was covered under warranty. He swears his Elantra was as or more reliable than his previous Toyota Tercel. Do you suppose he got luck with his Hyundai? You guys are blind to this emerging market. I suppose Hyundai is saving millions on their warranty forecasts because they are lucky. You are blind to the emerging automakers just like GM and Ford were blind to the emergernce of Toyota, Datsun and Honda. Wake up!

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"Dismiss all you want but 'Average Joe and Joanne Consumer' accepts these findings and trusts them."

Sheep do that, herd animals you know.

The difference between the top and bottom of the JD Powers list is about 3 problems per car, not much difference, simply "Best" "Worst" That's what attracts the buyers eye. And really it's more about awards than anything else, higher number, generally higher sales. Like the old Race and win Sunday, Sell Monday thought process.

As to #10's waxing on about JD Powers, well, it's not about quality, or surveys, it's about money, pure and simple. JD started a business, convinced some folks to sign on and now he "rates" all sorts of things and all questionable as to the significance of that survey.

So, what if you have problems in the first 90 days, they get fixed, you rate the product low, then have no problems for the next 5 years? What if you have a great 90 days, then the thing falls apart?

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I believe Consumer Reports did a long term reliability report and it was in that study where American manufacturers failed to keep up with the Japanese. And the difference in defect rates per 100 vehicles was a lot more than the minute differences in the initial surveys.

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One doesn't have to know about cars to realize JD Power's survey is a joke.

If a survey company:

1) Significantly changes the survey;
2) Keeps the survey's name identical after the change;
3) Gets radically different results after the change; and
4) The result differential is entirely inconsistent a mere year's passage of time;
5) Yet is offered for the same purpose as the prior survey,

then you've got a BS survey. Simple critical thinking allocates JD Power's work into the Roundfile of Insignificance.

Plus if one does know about cars, one already knows the JD Power Initial Quality Survey is severely mislabeled, disingenous and irrelevant to virtually anything--except brazen marketing, of course, where it's quite relevant. And then there's no need to even consider the "new" survey.

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I agree with the poll results, it would be much bigger news if Toyota didn't dominate 11 of 19 categories.

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13. "Everybody borrows. If you're gonna call out Hyundai, be fair and call everybody out, cuz nobody is ultimately original."

Nobody borrows. Borrowing is using someone elses rights/property/stuff with permission. Companies steal from each other, and yes that includes companies like Honda and Toyota.

What you've missed is that Hyundai does't just steal an idea or a design cue, they rip off every single design they make. They don't have a single original product, nor a single product that does anything better than anyone. It's cleverly disguised crap, not unlike what the Chinese are doing lately.

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