Honda ready to share, play well with others
Honda's putting it out there that it's ready to share its proprietary hybrid and diesel technology with other automakers, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported President Takeo Fukui as saying. The effort is evidently part of Honda's effort to stay ahead in the alternative drivetrain game, an effort that nicely complements recent news that it will launch a small, Prius-fighting hybrid and clean diesel engines in 2009.
Nice of them to be so generous, you think?
[Source: Nihon Keizai Shimbun via Forbes]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Michael Karesh 8:34AM (5/24/2006)
Of the four hybrid systems currently or soon to be offered--Honda, Toyota, Toyota II, GM/DCX/BMW--the Honda system is by far the simplest and least technologically advanced.
I've made an attempt at understanding the GM/DCX/BMW system here:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31539
In a second post I compare the much simpler Honda system. The Honda system isn't as flexible as the others, but could well be tops in bang for the buck. GM is adopting a similar system for the VUE Green Line.
But it's also possible that Honda wants to put a system more like the others in some future vehicles. And it could certainly learn from VW or DCX in diesel tech. Hence the offer to swap technology.
Reply
Alice 9:49AM (5/24/2006)
Yes, like Toyota's offer of "help" a while back, this is a cry for help instead by go-it-alone hybrid automakers. So far, the Prius has made a loss of about $2000 per vehicle for Toyota--although it has been good PR. GM, BMW and DCX now have a great chance to make a profit, since the shared cost of development has been lower for all three. That's a brilliant idea really and should serve all three well.
Reply
Ted K 9:50AM (5/24/2006)
Ever think that simplicity could possibly be a virtue?
We're starting to see more and more Priuses in the shops now, and I can't wait to see where this is going. It's still possible that the entire notion is a shame, the weight of batteries and the complexity of the drivetrain simply being larger than the benefits of owning a hybrid.
Time will tell.
Reply
Meek 10:17AM (5/24/2006)
Michael Karesh, are you aware of Honda's diesel programs in the European market, or taking that into consideration are VW and DCX still ahead of Honda?
Reply
s 11:09AM (5/24/2006)
Their doing it to bring cost down and make money at the same time. They don't have to sell their latest hybrid technology to the world.
Reply
tekdemon 11:11AM (5/24/2006)
Alice, according to Toyota the Prius is currently a profitable vehicle since they've managed to scale so well that they're making money on them. Since they've ramped production pretty heavily I'm going to guess that they didn't do it to keep losing more and more money-most of the losses were probably due to all the new technology they had to create and all the new tools they had to buy to build the cars. But once they're out there the incremental costs are much lower than the price premium.
I mean, you don't really think Toyota put their hybrid drivetrain in all those other cars just to lose more money do you? That would just be silly.
And Ted K, the Prius has been around since 1997 in Japan so it's not exactly as if there's no track record for how Toyota hybrids age out. You're probably seeing more in the shops because there's more on the roads-it's not like regular Toyotas are exactly infallible either. You'll see Priuses in the shop because you'll see cars in the shop regardless of what tech is under the hood. Anyways, even though the Prius is pretty complex, there's plenty of cars out there that are arguably just as complex even if they have traditional powertrains (I'm thinking German here). Although I guess with the reliability record of Volkswagen maybe that's not such a good example lol.
Reply
Michael Karesh 2:08PM (5/24/2006)
I might have spoken a bit soon on Honda's diesel technology. Despite their expertise with gas engines, I knew they had only recently introduced their first diesel, and so assumed it wouldn't rank with the leaders.
However, now that I've checked out a couple reviews it appears that Honda's 140-horsepower 2.2-liter turbodiesel might well be the best in its class in power, economy, emissions, and refinement. They haven't produced a six- or eight-cylinder diesel yet--heck, they haven't produced a gas V8 for consumers--but if they can get the four right a six shouldn't be too difficult.
Still, the others have been at it far longer, and likely have a few patented tweaks Honda would like to get its hands on.
The situation is clearer with hybrids. The Honda system is much simpler than the others. But whether they want access to others' hybrid technology--I don't know.
Fuel cells also remain under development, and Honda might want to share here as well.
Reply
Jones Fried 2:16PM (5/24/2006)
If you're toyota you don't need to partner with anyone, now that is a powerhouse.
Reply
MikeW 2:18PM (5/24/2006)
How about 6 speed automatics and cylinder shutoff for ALL their V6s?
Reply
Howard Kerr 2:18PM (5/24/2006)
Mr. Karesh thinks Honda could learn from VW about diesels?
In Europe, Honda offers a diesel Accord. Compared to VW's marginally smaller engine(2 liter Honda, 1.9 liter VW), the Honda has MORE horsepower 138 to 130, MORE torque 280lb/ft versus 210lb/ft is MORE economical 48 to 43 mpg and in an Accord versus Passat 0 to 60, the Accord is quicker. In the U.K. the tax on cars is dependent on the amount of CO2 emitted, Honda trumps VW in that department, too.
So, who needs to learn from VW?
Reply
Thomas 2:26PM (5/24/2006)
GM needs to wake the hell up and do something, this company has no clue and do they honestly think whatever marketshare they gained in China is going to last. You just wait and watch how long that last. Make something innovative you piece of crap company.
Reply
Howard Kerr 2:40PM (5/24/2006)
Sorry folks, damn bi-focals made me overstate some of the specs for the Honda diesel.
Displacement is 2.2 liters, not 2
Torque is ONLY 250lb/ft, not 280.
This engine is also used in the CR-V, which, being based on the Civic, means it should fit in the Civic if Honda wanted to go that direction.
Reply
Phydeaux 4:20PM (5/24/2006)
Thank you Thomas for the out-of-place anti-domestic rant... I was wondering how long it would take.
8.Jones Fried - Toyota has partnered often with many companies... the NUMMI plant in California is a joint venture with GM for instance.
The overhype on hybrids continue.... in the US market, hybrids account for 1.2% of sales...
Like most manufactures... Honda wants to quickly recoup development cost... how? Share your technology or sell it.
Reply
Howard Kerr 6:48PM (5/24/2006)
Re Jones Fried,
isn't there a story here on Autoblog that details Toyota's PARTNERSHIP with another company in China?
Toyota and Nissan BOTH sell diesel powered cars in their home market, yet neither one has a diesel certified for sale in the U.S. But then, that other powerhouse, M-B doesn't have a diesel in it's U.S. lineup at the moment, either.
Reply
James 4:18PM (5/25/2006)
Looks like the Odyssey and the Acura MDX would get first dibs for oil burners as an engine option this '09..
http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7BA47EE9B5-71D4-4E06-8F3A-4B608FA52919%7D&siteid=google&print=true&dist=printTop
Reply
digitalzombie 3:29AM (5/31/2006)
Duuude, you can't underestimate Honda. I don't mean to sound like some kind of fan boy but Honda is first and furemost a engine company. They're the best in the inline 4 cylinder engines. For V6s and I6s you gotta go with Nissan VQ series on that.
As for Toyota not making any money off of Hybrid you're completely wrong. They've invested tons of money on the hybrid technology and now they're trying to make money off of it. It's evidently clear when they offer more models with hybrid technology AND they sold the technology to Ford for an undisclose amount of money. That's why Ford have that lil' synegy drive sticker/badge/emblem.
MB does have a diesel model man. I think it's the E class the CDI model. It wasn't legal in 3 or 4 states cause it didn't pass the Cali's strict emission statards. They're expecting a 2007 model E class diesel with blue tech diesel. Man just go to the MB website and find the model with the diesel engine.
Sigh... I wish there's a minicar or hatchback with a diesel/hybrid tech engine. Or a Diesel infiniti G35 coupe 2007.
Reply